Florida Group Tells Woman To Remove Virgin Mary... [Archive]

Reephdweller

12-22-2003, 05:34 PM

Florida Homeowners Group Tells Woman To Remove Virgin Mary

SARASOTA, Fla. -- A homeowners association told a family to remove a 3-foot-tall statue of the Virgin Mary from their front yard because it violates the association's deed restrictions.

full story.... (http://www.wftv.com/news/2720786/detail.html)

Should the woman remove the statue, or fight it?

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HBox

12-22-2003, 05:51 PM

NewYorkDragons80

12-22-2003, 06:32 PM

Yeah, she's a moron for signing it, but a bigger question is why is such a thing present in the contract?

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ADF

12-22-2003, 06:55 PM

My parents live in a development where the homeowners' assocation is strict, as well. I fully support the free expression of religion, but that's what you get when you choose to live in such an area. Plus, those things are really tacky.. the catholic equivalent of those cutouts of people with big asses bending over whilest in the process of gardening.

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This message was edited by ADF on 12-20-03 @ 10:48 PM

blakjeezis

12-22-2003, 07:44 PM

Screw the lady. She signed the homeowners agreement. Stop pushing this crap on other people. You aren't being singled out, your beliefs do not allow to ignore the rules you agreed to obey, bitch.

This is a perfect example of the new left and its supporters' ideas of free speech. As long as it's not something they disagree with, then you can do or say what you want. As soon as someone does something that has any type of traditional ties or values, or may reflect conservative beliefs then the Bill of Rights goes right, or should I say left, out the window. Of course, if this was say, a Floridian, Muslim woman who refused to remove her veil for her driver's license photo, Hbox and his ilk would be screaming about some kind of Civil Rights violation I'm sure. Where is the ACLU to help this woman?

Stop pushing this crap on other people.

I requoted this because it is so typical of the left's tactics. It is their strategy to try and devalue anything they disagree with by making it seem like they are defending themselves, and by extension everyone else, from having some type of belief system forced upon them, especially if it's religious in nature. If you can legitimately demonstrate that this woman putting a statue of Mary in her yard is in anyway whatsoever 'pushing her beliefs' on anyone else, I'll eat my fucking hat.

You've sold out your fellow citizens' rights and freedoms, and it's abominable. The hypocrisy turns my stomach. This is why I hate the so-called "Left". Any type of truly Liberal ideals were long ago sacrificed at the altars of partisanship, political expediency, divisiveness, and power-mongering. This is the real legacy of Bill Clinton.

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HBox

12-22-2003, 07:58 PM

I requoted this because it is so typical of the left's tactics. It is their strategy to try and devalue anything they disagree with by making it seem like they are defending themselves, and by extension everyone else, from having some type of belief system forced upon them, especially if it's religious in nature. If you can legitimately demonstrate that this woman putting a statue of Mary in her yard is in anyway whatsoever 'pushing her beliefs' on anyone else, I'll eat my fucking hat.

You've sold out your fellow citizens' rights and freedoms, and it's abominable. The hypocrisy turns my stomach. This is why I hate the so-called "Left". Any type of truly Liberal ideals were long ago sacrificed at the altars of partisanship, political expediency, divisiveness, and power-mongering. This is the real legacy of Bill Clinton.

Give me a fucking break. I'm not so fucking stupid as to sign a contract agreeing I won't do something and then raise a stink when I do exactly that. I'm sick of hearing stories like this and hearing about religous persecution. That's not what this is about. This about contracts and homeowners associations not wanting chessy shit all over people's lawns. They wouldn't allow someone to put a windmill on their lawn. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THERE'S SOME GRAND CONSPIRACY AGAINST WINDWILLS!!!!!!!!!!

And, BTW, I said pushing crap, not pushing beliefs. The crap I was referring to is this religous persecution bullshit. She isn't being persecuted for her beliefs, she's being asked to abide by the rules of a contract she signed. Signing that contract was a free choice. She didn't have to. And now she wants an exception. This isn't persecution, this is her having to abide by the rules just like everybody else.

Of course, if this was say, a Floridian, Muslim woman who refused to remove her veil for her driver's license photo, Hbox and his ilk would be screaming about some kind of Civil Rights violation I'm sure. Where is the ACLU to help this woman?

Boy, you sure have me and my "ilk" down, don't you? Why don't you inform me of the rest of my political views while you're at it, since you so obviously have me nailed down?

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This message was edited by HBox on 12-22-03 @ 11:59 PM

A.J.

12-23-2003, 04:16 AM

Aww...how could you NOT like a Mary-on-the-half-shell statue?

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Katylina

12-23-2003, 04:43 AM

Mary-on-the-half-shell

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Zipgun

12-23-2003, 04:47 AM

Oh yeah... This thread's goin' places.

I agree that she does have all the right in the world to display her religious, albeit tacky icon, however, if it is in within the contract of her home ownership that she cannot, then it's gotta go. It's beyond a matter of expression, it's a matter of the fact that she signed a contract that prohibits her from such a display. I'm sure there's probably no restriction on her placing it in her backyard, but that would defeat the purpose of her being able to tell the whole world she's Catholic and proud.

The real problem lies within the fact that she lives where she lives. If it were an apartment building, I doubt she'd be allowed to have the figure placed in her hallway, hung from her front door or in front of the building itself. It would be different if she owned a house in a basic non-homeowner group development and the neighbors were demanding she remove it. If that were the case, I'd tell her to go buy an even bigger Mary and tell everyone else to go fuck their mother. But it's not.

My suggestion to her would be to find a more suitable place to live that can accomodate her expressions. Those Homeowner groups suck major ass with their rules on what people can or cannot do. My parents once lived in a similar community, and they were told they couldn't even change the color of the front door of their Townhouse because "it would differ from everyone else's house, and that's just unacceptable." They moved out within a year.

Is it right that she should have to do that? Of course not, but that's the shit that happens that'll learn ya' not to live in these idiotic restricted communities. And personally, if these were the type of people that were my neighbors, I'd get out as fast as I could, and take a shit in the community pool on my way out.

Fuckers.

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Arienette

12-23-2003, 05:57 AM

but a bigger question is why is such a thing present in the contract?you'd probably be surprised at some of the restrictive covenants in these deeds. although there are some exceptions, in general, a contract is a contract and if she signed it without any fraud or anything like that, she should abide by it.

Civil Rights violation not nearly. she isn't being prevented from believing or practicing her religion (see more below), and she's not being discriminated against on the basis of her religious beliefs.

It is their strategy to try and devalue anything they disagree with by making it seem like they are defending themselves, and by extension everyone else, from having some type of belief system forced upon them, especially if it's religious in nature. If you can legitimately demonstrate that this woman putting a statue of Mary in her yard is in anyway whatsoever 'pushing her beliefs' on anyone else, I'll eat my fucking hat. ok, first of all, people have the absolute right to believe anything they want, but they don't necessarily have the right to do or say anything they want. if this were public property, the government (city, state, whoever) would potentially be able to tell this woman to move her shit to the backyard or something of that sort. they can generally regulate things like that, althogh they wouldn't be able to tell her that she couldn't have her tacky virgin mary at all. considering that having this thing in her front yard isn't really a religious practice or anything, it would likely have to go.

but this is private property. owners of private property are going to have a lot of latitude in choosing what will go on on their property. and the fact that the homeowner's association has asked other residents to remove non-religious lawn ornaments from their yards just goes to show that this is not about religion; she's not being persecuted (as hbox said).

also, the daughter-in-law said,"This is an abuse of power," Dianne Bambu said. "The bylaws of a deed-restricted community supersede your right as an American citizen." as i just pointed out, you don't have a right as an american citizen to put anything you want anywhere, just because it's of religious significance to you. people have this strange, idealistic view of what it means to be american. american citizens have a lot of rights, far more than in other countries. but people have to realize that those rights do not come without limits. that would mean anarchy and licentiousness.

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Arienette

12-23-2003, 06:05 AM

and one more thing...

If you can legitimately demonstrate that this woman putting a statue of Mary in her yard is in anyway whatsoever 'pushing her beliefs' on anyone else, I'll eat my fucking hat.i can't imagine that anyone really thinks this. while it's not the same as standing in someone's front yard preaching to them all day long, there is definitely some "pushing of beliefs" going on here. i'm not saying that it's purposeful. i really do believe that this is just an 80 year old, religious woman, who feels safer for having an eyesore virgin mary sitting in her front yard. but that doesn't change the fact that having it there will affect others in the community. for a person who doesnt believe in god, or who believes in a different god, having to see this thing every day when they're at home, where they should have the right to be free from such things, it can be quite "pushy" and, in my opinion, inappropriate. this isn't just about this woman, what about everyone else? what if the other people in the community moved there because they knew that people wouldnt have big, tacky displays on their front lawns? would it be fair to them to let her keep it, when they're the ones following the rules?

so, what about this hat thing?

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This message was edited by Arienette on 12-23-03 @ 10:07 AM

Teenweek

12-23-2003, 06:24 AM

As long as they say a menorah and a star of david are forbidden too, I have no problem.

Zipgun

12-23-2003, 06:27 AM

so, what about this hat thing?

I'd say it'd be best if you had one of these. (http://www.designboom.com/trash/bse.html)

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A.J.

12-23-2003, 06:30 AM

I'd get out as fast as I could, and take a shit in the community pool on my way out.

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UnknownPD

12-23-2003, 06:39 AM

Blackjeezis.. I won't be here Thursday, but wanted to wish you a Happy Birthday!

blancostupido

12-23-2003, 06:44 AM

My childhood was typical: summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring, we'd make meat helmets. When I was insolent, I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds. Pretty standard, really.

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wilee

12-23-2003, 06:46 AM

there is definitely some "pushing of beliefs" going on here.
That's really stretching it, Ari.

While I agree with the general consensus here that she has signed a contract, and therefore has limited her legal options, I agree with Blakjeezis that putting something on your lawn does not "push" your beliefs onto someone else. I can walk down a street and see all manner of things on people's lawns, but that doesn't mean that I feel they are pushing me to do or be anything. It gives me a sense of their identity, if anything, and perhaps if I saw something on someone's lawn that I though was cool, maybe I'd like to meet them...

I live in a condo, and had to sign a contract too. My door has to be a certain color, my patio cannot have this or that on it. We're not allowed to have gas grills (although I can count at least 5 of them from my patio). These groups tend to think that if they let one person put some item on their lawn, within a year, the community will look like a Jeff Foxworthy "You might be a redneck if..." sketch.

They just built one of these communities in my town a few miles from me. The residents refer to it as "The Twilight Zone". I thought one of my friends was joking when he said that there was a guy measuring the height of someone's lawn...

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silera

12-23-2003, 07:20 AM

Why doesn't she just put it in her window or in her foyer?

Common sense just doesn't exist anymore. I may become the next unibomber and just start torching courts so that people don't have anywhere to file their fucking retarded claims anymore.

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JustJon

12-23-2003, 08:13 AM

She signed a contract stating she can't put tacky shit on her lawn of any nature. It's not a religious issue, it's a visual one. And it's not the pushing of beliefs so much as the advertising of such.

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high fly

12-23-2003, 09:43 AM

I bet if it was a statue of someone secular, ohhhhhhh, say, Saddam, for example, there would have been no problem...

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blakjeezis

12-23-2003, 11:27 AM

The point of my argument is not whether the woman should or shouldn't keep the statue. It's not even whether or not her civil rights are being violated. Well I guess that's not true. The whole premise of my argument is that her freedom of expression is being violated, but I digress. What I'm really trying to get at is how quickly people with a 'liberal' slant throw out their high-mindedness and supposed idealism when it suits their political agenda.

Let's be honest, if this was a black guy who moved into this community and they wouldn't let him put up an enormous Kwanzaa menorah, or whatever it's called, or if they didn't want an Arab to have a placard calling for the creation of a Palestinian state in his yard, all the bleeding-hearts would be up in arms, regardless of this "homeowners agreement". That's just a convenient smokescreen for 'liberals' to hide behind. Because this woman wants to put a Catholic icon up and the Catholic Church takes a lot of stances, particularly on abortion, that 'liberals' don't agree with, her rights become secondary to their politics.

It's disgusting. It's rampant. And the worst and most insidious part; it's disguised as open-mindedness.

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This message was edited by blakjeezis on 12-23-03 @ 3:32 PM

Teenweek

12-23-2003, 12:16 PM

If it was any other religious icon other than dealing with catholicism it WOULD NOT be an issue.

East Side Dave

12-23-2003, 12:24 PM

This wouldn't be an issue if this was in Fraggle Rock.

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FUNKMAN

12-23-2003, 12:30 PM

if she tried it in my old neighborhood Mary wouldn't be a virgin for long...

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East Side Dave

12-23-2003, 12:43 PM

Mary looks like Wynona Ryder.

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Se7en

12-23-2003, 01:49 PM

Some of you need to read the Exercise Clause again. Having an effigy of Mary or having the nativity scene on your property is NOT 'pushing your beliefs' on people, it's part of the free exercise of one's religious beliefs. Thankfully, the courts haven't taken THAT away from us (yet - the ACLU is hard at work, though).

Unfortunately for her, this isn't a state entity, so she can't really assert a first amendment claim.

I'd advise her to leave the Mary there, and if they give her shit about it, file a lawsuit claiming that the "covenant" contract is unconscionable & violative of public policy.

I'm sick of hearing stories like this and hearing about religous persecution.

Newsflash: religious persecution - of CHRISTIANS, even - does exist.

And many, many "stories like this" do center around genuine religious persecution.

And, BTW, I said pushing crap, not pushing beliefs.

Now you just sound like you're backpedaling.

You place so much importance on following the contract here, do you? What if, say, that contract had a provision stating "Blacks shall not live in the same house / living unit as whites." You'd probably be upset, wouldn't you? Of course, because the Constitution has been held to protect the rights of individuals to associate with those whom they wish.

But here's the kicker - the freedom of association is a highly normative right that was essentially created during the past century, while the freedom of religion is explicitly stated in Amendment I of the Constitution. It's purely textual, positive law.

Do NOT misunderstand the importance or power of the free exercise of religion. It's arguably more constitutionally sound than the right to privacy, marriage, abortion, and a dozen other rights that have been acknowledged in the past 100 years.

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high fly

12-23-2003, 02:03 PM

25 posts and no one has commented on the fine rolling papers Ms Bambu has been providing for us all these years.

As for her excercising her religion, I hope she wins in court so the Santerians can slaughter chickens on THEIR front lawns...

And have you ever seen any of those Bhuddist Temples with the giant penises on display?

" and they ask me why I drink"

silera

12-23-2003, 02:05 PM

HBox

12-23-2003, 02:27 PM

Now you just sound like you're backpedaling.

You place so much importance on following the contract here, do you? What if, say, that contract had a provision stating "Blacks shall not live in the same house / living unit as whites." You'd probably be upset, wouldn't you? Of course, because the Constitution has been held to protect the rights of individuals to associate with those whom they wish

Stop it. My whole family is Catholic, there's highly religous stuff all over my house and I don't care. I helped my Mom put together a nativity scene. I sang Christmas carols in school as a child. This stuff doesn't bother me.

Religous persecution exists, but let's not pretend like its a big problem. If this lady refused to remove a windmill from her lawn, would this be a story in a newspaper? We are dealing with the same kinds of rights and issues in that case as we are in this case. But its not a windmill, its a Virgin Mary statue. She's asking for special treament, and why should she get it? Give me one reason.

And lets not even try to compare civil rights to to the right to decorate your lawn. That's just stupid. Really stupid.

Whether or not these contracts are too strict are a different matter. I think they are. But you know what? Other people living in that place manage to get by. Why should she get special treatment?

What I'm really trying to get at is how quickly people with a 'liberal' slant throw out their high-mindedness and supposed idealism when it suits their political agenda.

Let's be honest, if this was a black guy who moved into this community and they wouldn't let him put up an enormous Kwanzaa menorah, or whatever it's called, or if they didn't want an Arab to have a placard calling for the creation of a Palestinian state in his yard, all the bleeding-hearts would be up in arms, regardless of this "homeowners agreement". That's just a convenient smokescreen for 'liberals' to hide behind. Because this woman wants to put a Catholic icon up and the Catholic Church takes a lot of stances, particularly on abortion, that 'liberals' don't agree with, her rights become secondary to their politics.

Why don't you give me some other hypotheticals and tell me how I'd react? I'd be really curious.

Here's what happened. This woman signed a contract which stated she couldn't decorate her lawn. She decorated her lawn with the Virgin Mary. They told her to remove it. She thinks her religion supercedes the contract and refused to remove it. And now it's being spinned as part of some conspiracy against Christians. And that bothers me.

So keep on calling me some religion hating liberal. I'm not. I don't hate Christianity. It's wrong the way Christmas is being stripped from schools while other holidays are being taught. But that's not the issue here. There's nothing here but some dumbass lady who didn't know what the fuck she was signing.

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high fly

12-23-2003, 02:40 PM

You place so much importance on following the contract here, do you? What if, say, that contract had a provision stating "Blacks shall not live in the same house / living unit as whites."

That made me change my mind. I'll now agree that a civil contract cannot override the freedoms granted us by the constitution.

This lady should be allowed to reenact the crucifiction on her front yard every easter if that's how she chooses to express her religious beliefs.

How about if she wants to celebrate other Easter rituals on the lawn? I did some research into Easter several years ago, and it used to be a Babylonian fertility festival that included public orgies led by local religious leaders.

Seriously, I say leave this old lady alone. These assholes in these homeowner's groups have a way of turning into Nazis.
You've got to take it on a case by case basis.
In some towns where there is a historic district, it is fine to restrict what homeowners do with their houses, but the laws must be clear and reasonable.

I'd like to see this lady sue and win a lot of money in court and then have the association kick out the bastards that decided it was ok to fuck with an 80 year-old woman with an inoffensive statue on her front lawn.
Not just kick them out of the homeowner's association, but kick them out of the subdivision because they cost the association so much money in legal fees as well as making them out to look like assholes.

" and they ask me why I drink"

silera

12-23-2003, 02:44 PM

How about if she wants to celebrate other Easter rituals on the lawn? I did some research into Easter several years ago, and it used to be a Babylonian fertility festival that included public orgies led by local religious leaders.

I'm converting.

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high fly

12-23-2003, 02:51 PM

There used to be orgies and public drunkenness to celebrate Saturnalia, which we now call "Christmas".

Back in the day, them pagans had it made.

" and they ask me why I drink"

Mothball

12-23-2003, 07:34 PM

everybody blames the jews, its not us

blakjeezis

12-24-2003, 12:55 PM

You know what? I apologize, I was wrong. Hbox, you were indeed correct. I read your response and painted you with a very broad brush based solely upon that. I'm sorry, it's just that this kind of stuff really gets my old blood up. I'm not taking back any of the other stuff about 'the new left' and so on. I'll hold to that till the day I die.

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monsterone

12-24-2003, 02:02 PM

i hope she wins. cuz i'm moving next door, and bringing these:

http://www.harperslawnornaments.com/images/lrg%20jockey.jpg

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HBox

12-24-2003, 02:19 PM

You know what? I apologize, I was wrong. Hbox, you were indeed correct. I read your response and painted you with a very broad brush based solely upon that. I'm sorry, it's just that this kind of stuff really gets my old blood up. I'm not taking back any of the other stuff about 'the new left' and so on. I'll hold to that till the day I die.

No problem. As much as you hate those types of people, I hate being painted as such. Extremism, on either side, sucks.

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pennington

12-26-2003, 02:47 PM

A deal's a deal, she could always move. This is like that story a few months ago where a guy wanted to put a giant flagpole in his front yard, even though the homeowner's association rules said you could only have flag poles mounted on the house. The rules are the rules, if you don't like them, run for a seat on the board.

Besides, she could always put the statue in the BACKyard. I'm sure she'll still make it to heaven...

high fly

12-27-2003, 12:52 PM

B-b-b-but what if it was a 9-11 memorial that looked like a giant vagina?

" and they ask me why I drink"

TheMojoPin

12-27-2003, 09:11 PM

I was raised a Catholic, but I don't see how this woman is being persecuted here. She signed a contract that basically says she can't put stuff like that on her yard. It's not because it's religious...just because it's a big eyesore and it sounds like the homeowners are trying to keep a typically lame homeowner decision in place. I have to deal with that kind of stuff all the time in my neighborhood. The people that enforce these things are dicks, but people are trying to take this to a different, very unecessary level, and it cheapens the beliefs she's trying to display.

Persecution of Christians DOES exist and is very real, but this is a farce and makes a mockery of that notion.

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Doomstone

12-27-2003, 09:15 PM

Persecution of Christians DOES exist and is very real, but this is a farce and makes a mockery of that notion.

I still don't understand this christian persecution thing.

Can someone explain it?

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MizzleTizzle

12-27-2003, 09:39 PM

I still don't understand this christian persecution thing. Can someone explain it?

Well, history shows us the emergence of a slew of religions. And for many of them, a central idea is that there's is the one true religion, and that if you follow the One True God and it's religion, you will be rewarded in some way; usually in an afterlife. And conversely, if you do Not follow the One True God and it's religion, you will be punished in some way, or are inferior, or 'don't see the truth' or...

Well, some in history have taken it upon themselves to sing the praises of their religion, to spread the word. And some have done it a bit more forcefully then others. Some religious followers speak in silence, some speak gently, some call out loudly, some demand you listen, and some demand you either practice their religion, or if not, cease practicing your religion in our neck of the woods. Or at worst, some say convert, or die.

There is a long, dreary chain of religious persecutions towards others; holocausts, inquisitions, pogroms, christallnachts, conquistadores, church bombers, bloody sundays, burnings of scientists, burnings of books, burnings of libraries [most famously the destrustion of the libraries at Alexandria and the murder of it last overseer, Hypatia], holy wars, crusades, suicide bombings, clinic shootings; this is sadly only a small sample of what comes to mind.

James 1:26

BoondockSaint

12-27-2003, 10:03 PM

bloody sundays,

Bloody Sunday was a political thing, not religious.

Remembering
Bloody Sunday
January 30, 1972

On January 30, 1972, soldiers from the British Army's 1st Parachute Regiment opened fire on unarmed and peaceful civilian demonstrators in the Bogside, Derry, Ireland, near the Rossville flats, killing 13 and wounding a number of others. One wounded man later died from illness attributed to that shooting.
The march, which was called to protest internment, was "illegal" according to British government authorities. Internment without trial was introduced by the British government on August 9, 1971.

The British-government-appointed Widgery Tribunal found soldiers were not guilty of shooting dead the 13 civilians in cold blood.

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Thanks to monsterone for the sig!

FUNKMAN

12-27-2003, 10:12 PM

i heard the news today...

thanks Boondock! i always like the song but didn't know it's inspiration...

<img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/funkman.gif">

BoondockSaint

12-27-2003, 10:25 PM

There is a lot of religion in the Ireland vs. England fight but Bloody Sunday was not one of them.

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Thanks to monsterone for the sig!

Arienette

12-28-2003, 02:40 PM