Islam is a religion of peace? Prove it

[WRESTLINGFAN]

For the past 30 years or so there has been event after event of terrorist attacks from muslims. I am sick of hearing that Islam is a religion of peace. If that is the case, then why dont these Imams ever try to prove it by condemning attacks.

I dont wanna hear that its my ignorance of Islam. The fact is that all non muslims are considered to be the enemy and that non muslims should be eliminated. They tried to take over spain in the 1300's and were driven out. There were the crusades also when they fought the christians and convert Europe to Islam

Countless of times these Muslims committed acts of violence and their so called reward is 72 virgins in heaven. What kind of religion is this? Its a religion of violence and non tolerance. If these maniacs want to go to heaven so badly, lets do the job for them and destroy them before more will be done to us

Im sure alot of people on this board feel the same way about this subject

[Doomstone]

This is awful, racist, hate speech.

I feel sorry for your mother, she must have deserved to raise a better child than you.

-------------------------------

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[TheMojoPin]

Just a heads up: WRESTLINGFAN's idea for a discussion is fine. People want to discuss and debate Islam as a religion? Go ahead. But the second this devolves into "kill 'em all" or "just nuke 'em" and the like, it's locked, period, and the people who post it will be that much closer to being banned. I'm not tolerating that shit.

Don't fucking test me.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-28-03 @ 1:28 AM

[ChrisTheCop]

Well first, I'll readily admit my ignorance to the subject of Islam, other than what we've all learned in the past 2 years (being hit with shoes is the biggest insult you can give...?) That said, initially, I felt sorry for the "regular" Muslims that the terrorists were giving their religion a bad rap. But recently, I heard a Muslim who is actually on our side say that finding Osama Bin Laden (aka Bin Louden) will be nearly impossible because there is not an Islamic person IN THE WORLD who feels he is truly evil. He is respected as a Muslim leader who has gone to great lengths to strengthen the Muslim cause, and to turn him in would be to side with the devil. Thats fucking scary.

<img src="http://rfcop.50megs.com/images/christmas_blox.gif">

[ChrisTheCop]

Wow, give us a chance here mods. We're human...we can have intelligent conversations. Dont pre-judge us, man.

<img src="http://rfcop.50megs.com/images/christmas_blox.gif">

[TheMojoPin]

We're human...we can have intelligent conversations.

The proof is in the pudding.

Or in this case, the proof is in the threads on religion in the R&F.net Politics & Current Events forum.

I'm just trying to steer it away from a locking that's almost painfully inevitable. I WANT it to live.


<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Ok i will leave it to a religious/political discussion and leave the other stuff out.

On that note ive yet to see an Imam denounce terrorism.

[Doomstone]

Mojo...

It's a racist thread.

Imagine "So, you christians believe in peace? Prove it!"

I don't know, I guess I just know enough people from enough religious backgrounds that asking them to "prove" to me that they're peaceful would mean the end to our friendship.

And I wouldn't want that.



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[ChrisTheCop]

Holy Hypersensitivity. Well, if someone's offended, I'm all for locking it up. sigh...Just when I thought I might learn something tonight.

<img src="http://rfcop.50megs.com/images/christmas_blox.gif">

[Doomstone]

Don't be a retard....


WRESTLINGFAN started this thread with racist bs

That doesn't mean you can't learn from it



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[MizzleTizzle]

Islam is a religion of peace? Prove it


An exercise in debate is to take the opposing side and see if you can build and arguement for it. Let's see..

Q: Christianity is a religion of peace? Prove it

For the last 2000 year; a singular religion has emerged that has caused more death and destruction then perhaps any other in history.

The Bible shows us a jealous god who creates evil [his words, not mine]; and threatens eternal torture to those who do not follow.

Some examples:

-God murders just about everyone, young old, handicapped, the unborn, in a giant flood.

-God commits infanticide at Passover.

-God commands people to stome to death a man for the crime of collecting wood on the sabbath.

And as for the history of it's followers?

Inquisitions
Conquistadores
Holy Wars
Crusades
Dark Ages
Burning of Bruno
Galileo's Debacle

so; where the peace?

[Doomstone]

So there's NO SUCH THING AS A RELIGION OF PEACE!?

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[FUNKMAN]

it's probably like a code on a pro baseball team... i'm sure not every player agrees with their pitcher beaning or throwing at a guy but they don't denounce it and neither does the front office, it's part of the game. They feel they are protecting the GAME and the religious leaders feel they are protecting the RELIGION. Luckily it is the 'small minority' of extremist muslims who engage in terrrorism. And just because they say they do it in the name of Islam does not mean they are Muslims. I just consider them people that hate!

<img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/funkman.gif">

[DESERTEAGLE.50]

there is such thing as peace, but when religion, of any kind, is attached to peace, it all goes bye bye

FINGA FONGA FINGA FONGA MOTHER FAH
<IMG SRC=http://satelitecam.net.co.nr/sigpics/rf/sig_deserteagle3.gif .gif>

[WRESTLINGFAN]

[/quote]

An exercise in debate is to take the opposing side and see if you can build and arguement for it. Let's see..

Q: Christianity is a religion of peace? Prove it

For the last 2000 year; a singular religion has emerged that has caused more death and destruction then perhaps any other in history.

The Bible shows us a jealous god who creates evil [his words, not mine]; and threatens eternal torture to those who do not follow.

Some examples:

-God murders just about everyone, young old, handicapped, the unborn, in a giant flood.

-God commits infanticide at Passover.

-God commands people to stome to death a man for the crime of collecting wood on the sabbath.

And as for the history of it's followers?

Inquisitions
Conquistadores
Holy Wars
Crusades
Dark Ages
Burning of Bruno
Galileo's Debacle

so; where the peace?

[/quote]

Your 1st three examples reflect Judaism from the Old Testament

During the crusades the Muslims butchered innocent women and children. It wasnt the Christians committing all the violence

[TheMojoPin]

WRESTLINGFAN started this thread with racist bs

That doesn't mean you can't learn from it

The former is obvious.

The latter is my thinking towards my thread, and is why I'm not locking it...yet.


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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[ChrisTheCop]

Quick Fan, re-read and edit that one..no one's looking. QUICK!

<img src="http://rfcop.50megs.com/images/christmas_blox.gif">

[Doomstone]

ChrisTheCop, what do you have against brown people?

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[ChrisTheCop]

If thats a joke, I dont get it.

<img src="http://rfcop.50megs.com/images/christmas_blox.gif">

[Doomstone]

Your obvious agreement with a neanderthal like WRESTLINGFAN.

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[TheMojoPin]

Chris the cop beat the hell out of me and I'm as white as can be.

"SO SHUT YOUR DAMN MOUTH, HIPPIE!"


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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[NewYorkDragons80]

Tom Clancy recently posted this in his newsgroup, and I figured I would do him the honor of plagiarism.

Why does anyone think that this terrorist war has so much to do with religion?
Bin Laden wants to be the new Mohammed, which would give him control of a formless nation of 1.5 BILLION citizens, and the power that would come with it. His objective is political, not religious. He wants to be the biggest kahuna around. A lot of people think that way. Some are politicians. The rest are madmen. The two groupings overlap

Wherever the Prophet Mohammed is now, he is probably displeased that the religion he founded on sound and admirable principles is being perverted, not unlike Christianity by the crazies in Northern Ireland. in Catholicism we call this blasphemy.

Religion rarely causes war. Rather, it defines the respective teams in wars which are always about economics, one of the few facts that Karl Marx got
right. Anyone on the NG who gets numerous porn spams on the 'Net will understand that people will do damned near anything for money. Even very
uncomfortable things

The average Muslim wants the same things that the average Christian or Buddhist wants: a nice house, an steady job, and a better life for his kids-this is what the polling date in Iraq shows rather explicitly. Our newsies do not report this, of course.

If there is anything America has demonstrated to the world it is that all people are pretty much the same. We have every culture in the world represented here. Bring them here and the first generation works at menial entry-level jobs
and tries to get its kids educated. The kids become doctors and lawyers, and their kids run for Congress. Along the way we also get some decent baseball players. During World War I the Army, which is a very progressive institution,
tested its draftees and proved that Blacks were smarter than Jews. (This may be why people declare that the SAT and other mass tests are biased, by the way. Blacks spoke English Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe did not.) Now, today I doubt that anybody would be so bold as to suggest that any group is smarter than Jews. What makes people succeed are strong families and respect for education. The Jews had and still have these advantages. I hope I'm not going
too fast for anyone here,

Religion is what we all choose as our way of talking to God. To succeed a religion MUST elevate the spirit and give us hope for the future. Islam does this well for over a billion people. It is not a religion made for and by psychopaths. It's a way to talk to God, not Lucifer.

Recognition of this fact-the practical utility of religion-is a foundation stone of the United States of America. The First Amendment of the Constitution
is supposed to protect freedom of religion, though there are some today who try to transform it into freedom FROM religion, which is a stand worthy only of contempt. In "The Sum of All Fears" I tried to propose that if we recognize religions by the good things they uphold, we could defuse much of the perversions which come about from people who in fact if not in form spit upon the faiths they claim to represent and promote.

The smartest thing we Americans can do today is to embrace Islam and its values. To do so would go a long way toward isolating the Islamic "guerillas"from the peasant sea in which they must swim to survive. But when does the
government do anything smart?

Appeal to a man's best instincts, and you will see those instincts. Treat him as a sociopath will help to transform him into one.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 12-28-03 @ 2:28 AM

[ChrisTheCop]

Already in this thread, Ive been called a retard (or warned against being one) and called a racist (I gather). I guess I expected an educated discussion on the wrong night.
Lemme know when our Islamic member sign in.


<img src="http://rfcop.50megs.com/images/christmas_blox.gif">

[TheMojoPin]

Ive been called a retard (or warned against being one)

Sounds like we're comparing apples and Klondike Bars here.

Especially since neither happened, unless THIS...

But the second this devolves into "kill 'em all" or "just nuke 'em" and the like, it's locked, period, and the people who post it will be that much closer to being banned.

...somehow applies to you, which, as far as I can tell, never has and doesn't.

And THIS...

Or in this case, the proof is in the threads on religion in the R&F.net Politics & Current Events forum.

...applies to threads of this nature in general, not any specific posters.

I'm just nipping the 'tards in the bud. By setting down what I'd lock this thread over, it leaves it in the hands of the other posters. The only people who can fuck it up for them is themselves.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-28-03 @ 2:48 AM

[JohnnyCash]

You cant judge a whole religion by the actions of an extremely small percent of followers.

<IMG SRC="http://www.osirusonline.com/cashsig.gif">
Thanks to Reefdwella for the great Sig Pic.

[Yerdaddy]

Wraslin is a real sport? Prove it.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[Gvac]

This is supposed to be a forum where members can voice their opinions intelligently and debate one another with respect. Calling people "retards" or saying "your mother deserved better than to raise a child like you" is hardly considered respectful, intelligent, or constructive.

Watch yourself, Doomstone. In other words, strengthen your argument, not your language.

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/gvacamerica.jpg>

[reeshy]

Before I respond to this thread (and I may have something cogent to say about the subject matter), I would first like to know if it is a thread about a certain religion or why a certain mod is standing in the wings waiting for an excuse to lock said thread!! Please inform me so I do not make a mistake!!

<IMG SRC=http://hometown.aol.com/satelitecam/images/sig_reeshy.gif>
It's not censorship because people can't come here and post/say whatever they want in the first place.

[MizzleTizzle]

Your 1st three examples reflect Judaism from the Old Testament


Ah! Wonderful! A debate!

Q1: Can you tell me how the Flood of the God in the Bible relates to Judaism only?

Q2: Let's assume you are right, and as to them all being OT, you are. But are you saying the Christian God, as portrayed in the Bible, is a peaceful God? Are there no examples of God killing, or ordering his followers to kill; outside of the Pentatauch?



During the crusades the Muslims butchered innocent women and children. It wasnt the Christians committing all the violence


Agreed. If you look closely, my response simply refers to 'christian persecution' and I liked that phrase because it can also mean the persecution OF Christians, which also has a long history which continues today in parts of the world.

-------------

My point was debate, and wrestling fan responded in true debate form. Attack the debate, not the debater. And that, as Martha Stewart does not say, but should, "That's a Very fucking A Well Told Good Thing, Brutha!"

-------------

Resume Party...


This message was edited by MizzleTizzle on 12-28-03 @ 8:33 AM

[MizzleTizzle]

From the Clancy essay:



If there is anything America has demonstrated to the world it is that all people are pretty much the same.


Ya know I see this and read this all the time and it sorta just shoots by me, and I pause; and the more I think about it; the more I find the above statement to be hopeful; but utterly untrue.

[sr71blackbird]

I notice no one ever says anything anti-Christian is inflamatory.

<center>
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<center><B>My Thanks to Reefdwella for the sig-pic!</B></center>

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<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=1>( o Y o )</marquee>

[TheMojoPin]

I notice no one ever says anything anti-Christian is inflamatory.

Yes, it would be if it ever reached the level that it typically does towards Muslims here. But it doesn't. If you can point to an instance where this happened, feel free to. It shouldn't be allowed towards any race/religion.

I would first like to know if it is a thread about a certain religion or why a certain mod is standing in the wings waiting for an excuse to lock said thread!! Please inform me so I do not make a mistake!!

Come on, reesh.

I already said, if the thread turns obviously racist/hateful, towards ANY race or religion, it's being locked. It's really not that difficult. I highly doubt you had anything to post that was anywhere near what I said would constitute this in my first post in this thread, so why worry? I'm not "waiting for an excuse." I'm simply keeping an eye on a thread that unfortunately has a very good chance for turning into something very, VERY ugly, very fast.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-28-03 @ 10:20 AM

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Your obvious agreement with a neanderthal like WRESTLINGFAN.

-------------------------------



Quit being a f'n hypoctite, you dont even know me

[billyio]

So there's NO SUCH THING AS A RELIGION OF PEACE!?


No,not particularly. When Religion is not separated from the State,as an instrument of the State, it is nearly impossible historically.

For example, the earlier examples of holy wars and persecutions can be found in nearly all the world religions when said religion is in a position of power. Zoroastrianism,for example, murdered Christians throughout the Sasanian period in Persia.

It is much more important to look at the formation of major religions as instruments of power of the state as mirrors of the time of their formations. The Passover story of Judaism reflects as does early Islam, a tribal development of their religions. There was no clear human rights element to their religious beliefs. The God of the Old Testament differs from the God of the New Testament-well,until the Book of Revelation.

When Christians came into Roman power,their submissive stance turned into an aggressive stance., and thus exercises of violence began to flourish. Likewise with Islam.

I feel that it is unfair to define "religion" as something separate in history from "state", since secularism is still a relatively new idea in society and politics. Furthermore, since religion is formed through human hierarchies of power, it is bound to be corrupted by institutional faults. In other words, nothing is or ever will be perfect!

See Ya!

[reeshy]

I highly doubt you had anything to post that was anywhere near what I said would constitute this in my first post in this thread, so why worry?


Don't you EVER assume that you know what I was going to write!!! I can be just as offensive and obnoxious as the next guy...even more so!!! I demand my rights as an American citizen to be just as nasty and horrible as I can be with the talent's that God gave me!! Thank You!!

<IMG SRC=http://hometown.aol.com/satelitecam/images/sig_reeshy.gif>
It's not censorship because people can't come here and post/say whatever they want in the first place.

[silera]

Prove to me that all blacks aren't fried chicken eating crackheads, all spics aren't rice and bean eating hupcap thieves, all chinks aren't noodle slurping commies, and all priests aren't communion wafer and wine addict pedophiles first.





<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif
<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

[high fly]

It has been my observation that except maybe for that McVeigh fella, your terrorists and murderers are all DARK HAIRED PEOPLE!!!

Well, just lookit the pitchers!
Weren't no redheads on them planes on 9-11!
Ain't seen no blonde suicide bombers!

John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, Hitler, Stalin, Al Dukes, Mao, Saddam, even Fidel Fuckin' Castro! ---all dark hair!






" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 12-28-03 @ 3:53 PM

[East Side Dave]

Polpot was a natural blonde!

<img border=2 src="http://members.aol.com/fezwhatleyfan/eastside.gif">
Big Ass Mafia

Click this link (http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/thenight/ppr/index.shtml) to hear my show on Jersey's 90.5 The Night;
Sunday night/Monday morning through Thursday night/Friday morning, 3 to 5 AM.

[high fly]

Naw, NAW!
His roots was showing there at the end!

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

Don't you EVER assume that you know what I was going to write!!! I can be just as offensive and obnoxious as the next guy...even more so!!! I demand my rights as an American citizen to be just as nasty and horrible as I can be with the talent's that God gave me!! Thank You!!

If you hadn't already broken my heart so many times, I'd marry you all over again.

...

Funny thing is, I "accidentally" typed "ass" instead of "heart" the first time around. Go figure.


<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[monsterone]

For the past 30 years or so there has been event after event of terrorist attacks from muslims. I am sick of hearing that Islam is a religion of peace. If that is the case, then why dont these Imams ever try to prove it by condemning attacks.

I dont wanna hear that its my ignorance of Islam. The fact is that all non muslims are considered to be the enemy and that non muslims should be eliminated. They tried to take over spain in the 1300's and were driven out. There were the crusades also when they fought the christians and convert Europe to Islam

Countless of times these Muslims committed acts of violence and their so called reward is 72 virgins in heaven. What kind of religion is this? Its a religion of violence and non tolerance. If these maniacs want to go to heaven so badly, lets do the job for them and destroy them before more will be done to us

Im sure alot of people on this board feel the same way about this subject




i've been wondering the same thing. to address the question at hand only, i wonder why muslims at large have not tried to further themselves from the extremist minority? also, i wonder why the exremist followers continue to follow. if the us/ zoinist states were toppled, how would this improve the muslim world? where is there example of a utopia? it just seems like a small group of men who's only desire is global domination - nothing religous, strictly political.


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MO¥+ErO¥E.
moe & steels, you are greatly missed... you too horde king

</center>

[ChickenHawk]

I like how Doomstone immediately pulled the race card. Always a quick and easy solution... Well played.

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!
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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 12-29-03 @ 3:04 AM

[monsterone]

I feel sorry for your mother, she must have deserved to raise a better child than you.



don't forget about being a "bigger" person

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MO¥+ErO¥E.
moe & steels, you are greatly missed... you too horde king

</center>

[A.J.]

But the second this devolves into "kill 'em all" or "just nuke 'em" and the like, it's locked, period, and the people who post it will be that much closer to being banned.

Does this count?

http://www.rockdiscography.com/coversiq/metallica/metallica_kill.jpg

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">
A Skidmark production.

Red Sox Nation

[FMJeff]

People confuse the mythos of stories within the religious texts with the doctrines of the religion itself. Yes, it says G-d smote the children of Egypt, but the fundamental purpose of that story is to remind the Jewish people that their higher power (Adonai) will always be there to protect Jews against those who wrong them. Obviously the tenet isn't true...see the Holocaust. Whether or not G-d actually killed those children is irrelevant. I'm willing to bet that story was weaved around some desert campground somewhere in the Middle East and passed down from generation to generation until it was written down.

See Fairy Tales...The Three Little Pigs...The Three Kings...Red Riding Hood and the Wolf...David and Goliath...wake up...they are just stories...myths...like the Loch Ness Monster and the Sasquatch. The purpose of religion is to analyze the subtext for meaning...to learn from the wisdom of people accumulated over time. People created religion, that's why they are inherently flawed under close scrutiny.

That begin said, Islam is just as violent as any other religion. Ego and vanity are found in most of the major religions, and they are the foundation of hatred that causes such bitter rivalry. "My G-d is better than your G-d" "There can be only one G-d and that's my G-d, not yours." People who congregate in groups have a tendency to shun those who are not a part of their group. Human beings also thrive on conflict and competition. Thus, it is inevitable that holy wars take place.



<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

This message was edited by FMJeff on 12-29-03 @ 12:10 PM

[Doctor Manhattan]

That is right. All religion can lead to violence. That's why I don't follow anyone else's religion. I have my own beliefs and I don't kill anyone.

You're welcome!

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This message was edited by SofaKingWhat on 12-29-03 @ 10:37 AM

[TheMojoPin]

i wonder why muslims at large have not tried to further themselves from the extremist minority?

I thought that too, but then started thinking about why I as a Catholic should have to "defend" myself for the actions of child-abusing priests? It doesn't have anything to do with MY faith or how I practice it, yet people talk like the stigma is somehow attached to me just because I'm of the same religon as these pervs. So why should the millions of Muslims who AREN'T terrorists, were never terrorists, and will never be terrorists have to do anything to explain themselves when they're not the actual problem?


<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Meatball]

no "religion" is evil. All religion is - is a set of laws, a book describing a way of life. Nothing in ANY religion is inherently evil in the way its written. The problem arises when people step in and interpret the "laws" the way they want. Just like Militia groups take the written consitution and interpret whats in it to further their agenda.

Its pointless to debate which religion has inflicted the most suffering on others. These are people banding together to further their agenda. I believe once a Imam, Priest, Minister, Rabbi etc. turns their back on the suffering of others, they cease to be a true practicioner of their religion and simply are evildoers hiding behind their religion.

Religion is a double edged sword - it can be a wonderful comfort, and spiritual savior , or be the blueprint for evil intentions.

This thread is about Islam. I dont believe the Koran preaches hate. I do believe the Imams of the arab countries who practice Islam have self serving agendas and use the pulpit as the means to get the message out there. The message is - anyone who isnt Muslim is out to destroy their way of life. The average Muslim would have no choice but to buy into this since they have heard it their whole lives.



<IMG SRC="http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/philex/meatball1.jpg">

[monsterone]

I thought that too, but then started thinking about why I as a Catholic should have to "defend" myself for the actions of child-abusing priests? It doesn't have anything to do with MY faith or how I practice it, yet people talk like the stigma is somehow attached to me just because I'm of the same religon as these pervs. So why should the millions of Muslims who AREN'T terrorists, were never terrorists, and will never be terrorists have to do anything to explain themselves when they're not the actual problem?


i started this thread (http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/87/Topic/35261/page/Muslim_football_tournament_under_fire_4_team_names .htm#bottom) to sort of contradict/ correct myself.


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MO¥+ErO¥E.
moe & steels, you are greatly missed... you too horde king

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[high fly]

Mojo, a Papist?
Well that just explains everything.

I'm not well versed enough in the Koran or the sayings of Mohammed to really say whether the non-violent Moslems are practicing the real deal or whether it is the violent ones.
That the moderate, peaceful ones would be pissed at the bad ones for giving the religion a bad image is natural, logical and probable.
That they are sufficiently organized and are prepared to smite down the baddies in their midst is another thing. We need to find ways to help them do so.

And before anyone else suggests killing all the Moslems, I suggest they spend some time in some of our national cemeteries and walk among the graves of our veterans who have died protecting us and our freedoms.
One will see a number of tombstones with the star and crescent denoting that the veteran buried there was a Moslem.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[ChickenHawk]

Yes, it's true that all religions can lead to evil and violence, and most HAVE at some point in the past... But TODAY, RIGHT NOW, which religion is the hallmark for terrorism? Islam wins. It sounds racist, but the truth is that the guy who's gonna strap the bomb to his chest, the guy who is gonna highjack an airplane, and the guy who is gonna blow up a bus in the name of "religion" ISN'T Christian. He ISN'T Buddhist. He ISN'T Jewish. And he ISN'T Hindu. Have such occurances happened in the past? I'm sure some wiseass is gonna cite an incident where a Jewish guy blew himself up once... But guess what. The only reason you can name that ONE time, is because it's that damn rare. The trademark of terrorism in TODAY'S world is Islam. If you deny that, you're lying to yourself. I'm not saying Islam at its root is bad. I'm saying it's been severely corrupted, and not much is being done to undo that.


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ORACLE NEVER!!!
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[high fly]

Naw naw naaawwww!
It's the dark hair!
It's the dark hair!
It's the dark hair!
Bad guys gots the dark hair!

" and they ask me why I drink"

[ChickenHawk]

Thought-provoking...


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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!
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[FMJeff]

Yes, it's true that all religions can lead to evil and violence, and most HAVE at some point in the past... But TODAY, RIGHT NOW, which religion is the hallmark for terrorism? Islam wins. It sounds racist, but the truth is that the guy who's gonna strap the bomb to his chest, the guy who is gonna highjack an airplane, and the guy who is gonna blow up a bus in the name of "religion" ISN'T Christian. He ISN'T Buddhist. He ISN'T Jewish. And he ISN'T Hindu.

Response to Ignorance 1:
Read a newspaper, you fool. Protestants and catholics blow each other up all the time in Ireland over the very issue of religion. Just because Christians aren't under the same socio-political pressure as Muslims are doesn't mean they are any less inclined to kill someone for thier beliefs.


Have such occurances happened in the past? I'm sure some wiseass is gonna cite an incident where a Jewish guy blew himself up once... But guess what. The only reason you can name that ONE time, is because it's that damn rare.


Response to Ignorance 2:
Jews hunt and kill Palestinians using far more high tech weaponry than suicide bombs and airplanes flying into buildings. They don't NEED to. They are well funded and equipped by the US to destroy thier enemy. If they didn't have access to those resources, I guarantee they'd be strapping bombs to their chest.


The trademark of terrorism in TODAY'S world is Islam. If you deny that, you're lying to yourself. I'm not saying Islam at its root is bad. I'm saying it's been severely corrupted, and not much is being done to undo that.


Response to Ignorance 3:

Terrorism has a trademark? Does it have a logo too? So Islam is the trademark of terrorism and at the same time not bad "at its root"? Your rhetoric is so contradictory you have me running around in circles. Hatred bears no trademark. Terrorism has and always will be a means to a political end, not a religious one. These people are not out to make a statement about Islam...they use Islam to fuel thier courage and fight for what they believe is right. Faith...faith that they are giving thier lives for something noble...the preservation of thier country...thier people...

How easy it is for an American to judge.

Islam is severely corrupted? You show me one religion that hasn't suffered under the some kind of selfish manipulation. Turn on the TV any day of the week and you will see fuck tards hocking t-shirts in the name of G-d...lining thier pockets with the cash of the faithful...using the words of thier own texts against homosexuals...races of different color...other religions...

Open your eyes. There is more damage being done by a televangelist than a suicide bomber on a Greyhound. Granted its not as bombastic as a exploding carcass of steel and glass...but it hurts people none the less....on a nationwide scale...and its subtle enough for people not to notice.

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[high fly]

By narrowing it down to a group of only a billion, he's helping out law enforcement.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[ChickenHawk]

How ignorant of me... You're right. The bombing of the WTC
in '92, September 11th, the USS Cole, the Embassy bombings
in Nairobi and Baghdad, every suicide bombing in Israel,
countless highjackings, and various other incidents... None of
those were done by Muslims "in the name of Islam". Every
attack I just listed, and loads of others that I've forgotten or
left out, were all done by people of all different races and
creeds. When you hear about a terrorist attack on the
news, I'm sure you make NO assumption about who they
were, 'cuz we know it could've been ANYBODY! Terrorist
threat level is high on New Year's Eve? Hmmm... could it be
those Irish-Catholics are gonna wage war on America? Wait,
maybe it's that crazy militant group of Buddhist monks again?
Oh, someone blew up a bus in Israel... I'll bet it was an
African-American man who was there on business trip. Or
could it have been that wacky Italian grandmother?

OH WAIT!!! I SEE A PATTERN!!! IT WAS PROBABLY A
FUCKING CRAZY MUSLIM-EXTREMIST!

Sorry to be brutally honest, but the truth fucking HURTS
sometimes. Of course it's now easy to say I'm a racist and I
hate all Muslims... Say what you will. But I don't understand
how people can disregard such a long standing pattern of
terroist attacks commited in the name of "Islam". If THAT'S
not corruption, then what the fuck IS? Can you explain to me
why the Catholic church is corrupt because a couple hundred
priests molested children "in the name of Jesus", but the
Muslim religion isn't corrupt when a couple thousand terrorists
kill people "in the name of Allah"? When terrorism on a
massive scale in the name of Judaism, Zen Buddhism, or
Confucianism starts to occur, wake me up from my daze of
ignorance.


<IMG SRC="http://homepage.mac.com/papabell/.Pictures/officespacesig.gif">
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ORACLE NEVER!!!
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This message was edited by ChickenHawk on 12-29-03 @ 4:46 PM

[high fly]

How ignorant of me... You're right. The bombing of the WTC
in '92, September 11th, the USS Cole, the Embassy bombings
in Nairobi and Baghdad, every suicide bombing in Israel,
countless highjackings, and various other incidents... None of
those were done by Muslims "in the name of Islam". Every
attack I just listed, and loads of others that I've forgotten or
left out, were all done by people of all different races and
creeds. !






Noooooooo. Every one of them was committed by dark haired people!
Not a redhead or blonde in the bunch!

No, really man, the error in logic you make is a classic .
One does not argue from the general to the specific. It is illogical.

For example,
"All redheads are better than me in math because in school, every redhead I knew was better than me in math."

Speaking of math, what percentage of 1 billion Muslims have committed acts of terrorism?

I bet you play the lottery.


Meet me at Arlington, and bring some flowers, there's some graves there that could use them (see my previous post)...






" and they ask me why I drink"

[ChickenHawk]

Here's a pattern. Tell me what will come next:

8 8 8 8 8 _


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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
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[FMJeff]

Terrorist
threat level is high on New Year's Eve? Hmmm... could it be
those Irish-Catholics are gonna wage war on America? Wait,
maybe it's that crazy militant group of Buddhist monks again?


Let's analyze this stupidity for a moment.

- Are we supplying arms, funding and supplies to the either side of the Irish religious war?

We do in the Middle East.

- Have we invaded a Catholic/Protestant country under false pretenses?

No, but we have invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.

- Have we labeled Catholic/Protestant majority countries like Ireland a member of the "Axis of Evil"...aka our sworn enemies?

No, but there sure is a hell of a lot of muslim countries on that list.

- Do the Catholic/Protestants terrorists have access to the funding required to wage terrorism against the strongest country in the world?

No. But Middle Eastern terrorists are well funded by nobles and businessmen rich in Palestinian Oil.

What is the point I'm trying to make here? The POINT is that if the tables were reversed...if the we were backing the Protestants and the Irish Catholic were the focus of our agenda and they had the money and training to carry it out, it would be Irish Catholics on our ass. Substitute Irish Catholic for any other religion that might be pissed for whatever reason.

It has nothing to do with Islam, don't you get it?

To dismiss terrorism as Islamic insanity just shows how little you know about the complexity of the Middle Eastern political climate. IT'S NOT THE WORDS OF THE KORAN DRIVING THESE PEOPLE TO MADNESS YOU FOOL. THEY ARE BACKED AGAINST A WALL, AMERICA POUNDING THEM...ISRAEL POUNDING THEM...THIER LANDS TAKEN AWAY...THIER GOVERNMENTS OVERTHROWN, FIGHTING AMONGST THEMSELVES...POLITICAL INSTABILITY...ECONOMIC DISASTER....FAMINE...DISEASE...DEATH...




<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[ChickenHawk]

My work here is done.


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[Melrapuo]

I just wanna talk about God being violent and destructive.

The whole Bible is written by man, by those who have heard these stories and had decided to put it all down in a nice book so people can read, learn and practice its morals and meanings (I believe the earliest known version of the Bible is writtin over a hundred years after the birth of Christ, so some things could be either made up or interpretted differently, so all the stories may not be true). Now, for one thing, the idea that God had actually committed all these disasters and atrocities can be disputed. Today, we hear about people claiming wars in the name of God and saying that disasters are God's wrath, and yet most people don't believe in that. Now I could be saying that there is no God (and I know how apparently in the Bible God stopped talking to man) but you can't say that God...uh...ITself is truly violent. It may just be the way life is.

As for Islam, it IS a somewhat peaceful religion. Most religions have the same ideals. It's just the way that man can interpret or practice their religion that bring on these wars and disputes.

O, and just a side note, the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, all the religious scriptures should be recognized more as guides than fact. It's the ideas that we get from the stories, not the stories themselves, that we should believe and follow.

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[high fly]

Here's a pattern. Tell me what will come next:

8 8 8 8 8 _




Someone with dark hair?

" and they ask me why I drink"

[KERMIT]

Hey Wrestlngfan You Celebrate Christmas right? You believe in Jesus right? OK so you must be a fucking NAZI basterd. I sound stupid don't I? only a few stupid Muslims do that shit. So just because Hitler believed in Jesus doesn't make everyone who does a Nazi. and just because some asshole terrorist use Islam and the Koran for their despicable acts doesn't make it true. It doesn't say anywhere in the Koran about the 70 virgins or anything else. just like it didn't say in the Bible that Jews were scum and have to be whipped out. So please stop and fucking think before you make a stupid, uneducated and the worst fucking post i have ever seen.

OH Boy Is He Happy.

[high fly]

I read a story where a dog bit a kid.
That means we gotta kill all the dogs.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[mikeyboy]

This is obviously a touchy subject. Keep the personal attacks out of your posts.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=mikeyboy">
Ron & Fez Show Log (http://www.osirusonline.com/ronfez.htm)

[FUNKMAN]

they are a religion of peace and all they want is a 'peace' of our ass....

the word religion should be abolished, that's it! let's make war with the word 'religion'... what is a ligion anyway?

<img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/funkman.gif">

[monsterone]

Hitler believed in Jesus



no he didn't. he sent christians to the camps too.

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MO¥+ErO¥E.
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</center>

[KERMIT]

[quote]
Hitler believed in Jesus

no he didn't. he sent christians to the camps too.


Yea and Muslims kill other Muslims what's your point? Terrorists bomb other Muslim countries that help the US. Like the bombing in Turkey a while back.

OH Boy Is He Happy.

This message was edited by KERMIT on 12-29-03 @ 5:31 PM

[Bestinshow]

Jews hunt and kill Palestinians using far more high tech weaponry than suicide bombs and airplanes flying into buildings. They don't NEED to.


Jews hunt palestinians? I guess we are conveniently forgetting the politics involved and blaming it on the people of the religion. And are they "Hunting" palestinians or palestinian militants? I don't recall Israeli's hunting civilians as targets as Palestinian terrorists so readilly admit.



They are well funded and equipped by the US to destroy thier enemy. If they didn't have access to those resources, I guarantee they'd be strapping bombs to their chest.


I think maybe we are going a little out on a limb here......maybe?



Open your eyes. There is more damage being done by a televangelist than a suicide bomber on a Greyhound. Granted its not as bombastic as a exploding carcass of steel and glass...but it hurts people none the less....on a nationwide scale...and its subtle enough for people not to notice


Is this a serious statement? Please..............



So why should the millions of Muslims who AREN'T terrorists, were never terrorists, and will never be terrorists have to do anything to explain themselves when they're not the actual problem?


No, they don't have to explain themselves. But it would be nice if they cooperated in helping root out extremists. I have yet to see, on any large scale, any group of muslims denounce any terrorist activity partaken by extemist groups, let alone assist in tracking down the criminals. In our country, you would be arrested for perjury for denying knowledge of criminal acts. In the middle east you can't even call that unethical without being accused of being "Zionist"

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[monsterone]

my point is, step away from the keyboard and take a deep breath. you're posting out of anger, and are goig to get this thread locked.



then, read through the thread and see how it's progressed

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</center>

[FMJeff]

Jews hunt palestinians? I guess we are conveniently forgetting the politics involved and blaming it on the people of the religion. And are they "Hunting" palestinians or palestinian militants? I don't recall Israeli's hunting civilians as targets as Palestinian terrorists so readilly admit.


I never said the hunted civilians. I said they hunted Palestinians. The statement is valid. And being that every Israeli must serve in the army at some point in thier lives, that makes every Israeli citizen a militant.



I think maybe we are going a little out on a limb here......maybe?


Am I? Which part? Americans funding Israel (true) or my theory that without those arms they'd be executing suicide attacks on thier enemy (good possibility...)



Is this a serious statement? Please..............


Yes, it is. I've seen more harm done by religious zealots than any suicide bomber.

Every day:

1) Someone gets beaten up for being gay because christians teach homosexuality as an abomination.

2) Millions of dollars conned in the name of G-d by people who don't have it, looking for hope.

3) Tribal Indian cultures destroyed as missionaries swarm to replace thier heritage with the words of Jesus.

it goes on and on...

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

This message was edited by FMJeff on 12-29-03 @ 5:47 PM

[high fly]

Bill O'Reilly said Eminem was more dangerous than the 9-11 terrorists.

Of course we don't go after Eminem.
I bet it's cuz he doesn't have the dark hair...

" and they ask me why I drink"

[ronjock58]

This may be an uncomfortable, and definitely not a politically correct thread, but it is not a racist thread. The Muslim, Christian, and Jewish religions are comprised of believers from all races. It is turning into the endless, pointless argument that anyone not like "ME" is evil. Prejudice is less about Racism than it is about tribalism. People like me must be OK. Grow up. Open your eyes. Think before you spew hatred that you don't really feel.

[Bestinshow]

I never said the hunted civilians. I said they hunted Palestinians. The statement is valid. And being that every Israeli must serve in the army at some point in thier lives, that makes every Israeli citizen a militant.


Well there is a big difference. I don't know what you want them to do. I guess only we can only hunt down enemies in the war on terrorism. And every Israeli is a militant because they serve in the army? I guess they should make brownies for the militant factions. You obviously don't feel they should use their army.


Am I? Which part? Americans funding Israel (true) or my theory that without those arms they'd be executing suicide attacks on thier enemy (good possibility...)


Where do you come off deciding they would use suicide attacks? How can you assume such a thing by a people who have never done that in their history? That is a hell of a reach assuming that Israel would use suicide attacks.



Yes, it is. I've seen more harm done by religious zealots than any suicide bomber.


You take your chances with the suicide bomber. I'd personally rather deal with Jerry Falwell or any evangelist. I can ignore them.

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[TheMojoPin]

Of course it's now easy to say I'm a racist and I hate all Muslims...

Why? You didn't say anything that indicates that, despite how some have responded here. To me you just made the point that the majority of significant terrorist attacks made in recent years have been made by extremist Muslims, often with religious overtures. You're correct. So what? Doesn't mean dick to all the millions of Muslims who AREN'T exremists or terrorists. You made a valid point in saying these terrorists were Muslim and often commited their attacks in the name of Islam and/or Allah. But that's still not applicable to the religion as a whole today, in the past or even down the line. But you didn't say that anywhere to begin with, so I don't see a reason to get my panties in a wad.


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[TheMojoPin]

I'd personally rather deal with Jerry Falwell or any evangelist. I can ignore them.

While I think Jeff's comparison is more along the apples and oranges and type, he does have a valid point. You say you can ignore them...but there will be plenty of people who won't. And will pervert what they say or just "get it wrong" and end up doing horrible things because of it. Muslim terrorists I think are the epitome of religon gone horribly wrong, but as Jeff said, there are examples of religion and faith being twisted and betrayed and perverted in our own backyard left and right. Just because it's not as sensational doesn't mean it's not the same kind of problem. It shows that this kind of religious extremism exists all over the place on all levels with all kinds of people. It's not just "those people" "over there." Just as Christinaity shouldn't be damned for it's bad apples, neither should Islam for the extremists, as prevelant as they may seem these days.


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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-30-03 @ 1:44 AM

[JerryTaker]

I think what kills me most about this thread, is that everyone continues to act in a rediculously predictable pattern.

Nobody seems to want to read somebody else's point and consider its validity, nor if they dissagree with it, would the thought ever occour to them of wondering why that person thinks the way he does, what would have caused it?

This is, in all actuality, the heart of the discussion. We're all so ready to argue for the notion that "We" must be right, that we refuse to even consider anyone else's viewpoint, and that's exactly the attitude, and point of view that feeds the religious extremists, because they gather together a bunch of people who want to be "right" at all costs, and the next thing you know, they've either taken all their money, program them to vote a certain way, or get them to walk into a building with a bomb on thier chest, be it a federal building or an abortion clinic.

It's why our society, globally, is doomed. People simply cannot look at themselves and admit that someone else's conflicting idea is just as valid as his, because it's easier to just punch that person in the face than to look within youself and question what you've been taught.

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This message was edited by JerryTaker on 12-30-03 @ 11:49 AM

[Bestinshow]

I think in the name of political correctness some of you miss the forest for the trees on this subject. Overanalysis over overanaylsis. many of people's opinions are simply driven by fear. In today's political climate we are the main enemy of a global political movement based on a bastardization of a hugh globally based religion. we all know at any moment, because of this hatred, things can erupt and have erupted at any moment. It is hard to find comfort, when the people of the very religion whom these groups have bastardized, don't openly agree with our condemnation of these acts. In fact, in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict it is such a wedge that Palestinian moderates openly admit that they can't punish militants because that would cause civil war. How can peace ever be established when groups that thrive on terror are so protected?

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[MizzleTizzle]

What kills me about these threads is right about now someone posts about how predictable they are, and that no one's really considering the other viewpoints of people, showing that they failed to read the posts that indeed do consider the other viewpoints.

Just a Guess!! ;p

[Bestinshow]

What kills me about these threads is right about now someone posts about how predictable they are, and that no one's really considering the other viewpoints of people, showing that they failed to read the posts that indeed do consider the other viewpoints.

Just a Guess!! ;p



I couldn't agree more. That plus some people feel if others don't feel the same as them, they couldn't have possibly read the other side. After all, how can you still have "that " opinion?

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[TheMojoPin]

In today's political climate we are the main enemy of a global political movement based on a bastardization of a hugh globally based religion.

No, we're not.

That's pretty much as myopic and weirdly egotistical as the popular "everyone hates Americans" sentiment that gets tossed around.

Most terrorist attacks by Islamic extremists are carried out against Israel and other Muslim nations. Maybe with Iraq we're "pulling ahead", but even then the tragets are the soldiers IN Iraq, not America itself, or even other Americans around the world.

We make ourselves the victim even when we're not.


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[TheMojoPin]

Nobody seems to want to read somebody else's point and consider its validity, nor if they dissagree with it, would the thought ever occour to them of wondering why that person thinks the way he does, what would have caused it?

If you don't want to read the thread, just say so.


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[Bestinshow]

No, we're not.

That's pretty much as myopic and weirdly egotistical as the popular "everyone hates Americans" sentiment that gets tossed around.

Most terrorist attacks by Islamic extremists are carried out against Israel and other Muslim nations. Maybe with Iraq we're "pulling ahead", but even then the tragets are the soldiers IN Iraq, not America itself, or even other Americans around the world.

We make ourselves the victim even when we're not.


Uh....yes we are. While many terrorist attacks are carried out against Israel many more are carried out against us (and all who ally with us) for our support of Israel and for our involvement in the Middle east. While they have hatred for Israel, we are conceived as more of a threat to their fundametalist existence. The targets you mention are the ones they are able to hit. They have been threatening our infrastructure since 9/11 but have not been able to carry out such threats. The attacks on British and Italian consulates are a direct result in their role as our allies. Even attacks in Muslim countries against Muslims (Recently anyway) are because of supporting us or our appointed governments. (See Iraqi police and attempts on Pakistani prime minister)

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[TheMojoPin]

Again, myopic. You're assuming these attacks on other countries are because of US as opposed to actually being against those countries themselves. Unless you actually ARE one of these terrorists, you're making assumptions as to what is actually a target and why. And many of those that have been struck, yes, have been struck because our actions (Iraq) have made them AVAILABLE to attack, but that hardly means they were attacked to strike AT us.

Islamic terrorists ARE a serious threat. But not just to us. And we're not #1 on their list. I don't believe for a second they'd ulitmately choose to "take us out" over Israel or most of the governments currently ruling most Islamic countries if they had the choice.

But then again, I'm just guessing and assuming, just as you are.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-30-03 @ 1:42 PM

[JerryTaker]

You've proven my point.

You've taken my post, picked out what you construed as a personal critisizm, implied I had no idea what I was talking about, and attemped to beat it savagely about the head and shoulders, Ignoring anything else I said.

So there you go.

<IMG SRC="http://afs30.njit.edu/~gsm2321/gimliwall.gif">

Nothing we've shared means a thing
Without you close to me
I can't live without you

[TheMojoPin]

Your point seems to be simply a criticism of what most generally agree what "debate" is (Rival parties each arguing a point they believe to be correct and presenting why they believe that). So color me confused as to what you're trying to say.

Of course, I have no idea as to who your last post is even directed at.


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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[CaptClown]

A couple of quick questions and then I will fade back into the safety of the All-Consuming Shadows.

1.)What race are the Muslims?

2.) Where exactly are the Palestinian Oil fields?

3.)Aren't there any Palestinian Civilians?

4.) Isn't there a deferment program for the Israelis?

5.) If you abolish religion will humans think of something else to go to war about?

6.) When was the last time Jerry Falwell incited violence?

7.)Isn't enlightenment the enemy of ignorance?


Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army
Poison Clan rocks the world

[high fly]

What kills me about these threads is right about now someone posts about how predictable they are, and that no one's really considering the other viewpoints of people, showing that they failed to read the posts that indeed do consider the other viewpoints.

Just a Guess!! ;p



I couldn't agree more. That plus some people feel if others don't feel the same as them, they couldn't have possibly read the other side. After all, how can you still have "that " opinion?




I knew you guys were going to say that.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[high fly]

I bought one of them tubes of Pringles potato chips and all of the chips inside were broken, therefore all of the chips in all of the cans of Pringles are broken...

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Yerdaddy]

In today's political climate we are the main enemy of a global political movement based on a bastardization of a hugh globally based religion.
This is true. A simplification, but essentially true. As Mojo is pointing out the attacks in other countries, like Muslim countries, are not ONLY directed at us. They are intended to strike at the regimes themselves for not only cooperating with the US but for their secular nature as well. Saddam was an enemy of al-Qaeda because he tolerated no power being held by clerics in Iraq. In the same way, Egypt and Turkey are targets for their secular governments, the Saudi Royals and Pakistan's President Musharraf are targeted for their cooperation with the US as well as their secular views, in what is seen by them as a war against Islam.

But what concearns me, and I think makes non-conservatives defensive, is that your description here aknowledges some diversity among Muslims but not how many? From terrorism experts, military and intelligence officials, academics, polls, and from Muslims I know, I hear that Muslim terrorists come from extremist fundamentalist sects, primarily Wahabbism, that promotes a minority view of Islam that excepts only its own kind as true Muslims and is willing to condone violence in a global agenda of chasing the West out of the Islamic world, establishing a pan-Islamist state, presumably stretching from Palestine to Pakistan, and probably expanding out from there. That is the ideology of the Wahabbis, which are a minority of Islam. But what I hear too often is that it is the ideology of Islam, which is not only ridiculously ignorant, but dangerous. It's a view that will lose us any war on terrorism because it theoretically leaves us no option but to make war on a billion people. But realistically it will drive us to ignore the fact that the fast majority of Muslims don't believe what the Wahabbis believe and just want to be left alone to live their lives. They have not devoted themselves to violence so they are powerless to stop their neighbors from conducting it, like so many of us naively expect them to do. And in case nobody's noticed, terrorist groups like al-Qaeda work in secrecy. They were in the US for how long without their neighbors knowing what they were up to? But probably most importantly, who will protect an ordinary Muslim if he makes an enemy of the Wahabbis? We need to earn the trust of them, and work with them to defeat the plans of the Wahabbis and isolate them and stop their spread.

Basically the bottom line problem I see, in forums like this anyway, is that America is caught up in the all-or-nothing fued, (that Jerrytalker is pointing out), over whether Muslims are either basically good or evil. It's an argument that has no basis in reality, and yet it has an impact, through political choices, on how we conduct the war on terrorism. The US Special Forces, before we even knew that we were in Afghanistan, were working with Muslims of the Northern Alliance to defeat the Taliban. Most of the suspected al-Qaeda that have been arrested to date have been arrested in Muslim countries by Muslim security forces. That's the way the front line on the war on terrorism is being fought. But here, behind the lines, we're fighting each other. The key to defeating the Wahabbis is to use the majority Muslims to work in both our interests. But every time an American condems all Muslims that trust we will depend on is undermined, just every time a Muslim in Egypt condemns all of "the West." Probably the most important success for their cause that those 19 fuckers accomplished on 9-11 was to divide us against ourselves. Everybody expects everyone else to unify around their positions, to come over to themselves. That's the nature of ideology - to believe you're right. But what's different is the punishments for not thinking alike, the accusations of sympathy for the enemy, un-Americanism, of Bush-bashing, or of believing any crazy conspiracy about the motives of the Iraq War, or of some official complicity in 9-11. All of that is a distortio

[TheMojoPin]

6.) When was the last time Jerry Falwell incited violence?

He doesn't. Doesn't mean he's not dangerous in that he takes little responsibility as to how those who follow him might decide to "preach his word" themselves. He's like the "violent movies cause violence" argument to the nth degree. He says blatantly inflammatory and hurtful rhetoric, gets called on it, halfassedly retracts it, all the time knowing that since he said it in the first place, his little message got out and the people that want to listen will take it, often quite literally, as gospel.

That, and he has no problem blaming and condemning others for violence they had nothing to do with whatsoever (See his comments right after 9/11), further warping the minds of some of the more gullible people who follow him and what he says.

Jerry Falwell is nowhere near as bad as extremist Muslim clerics and religious officials. But that said, he's an abomination and perversion of true Christianity. Steps on a ladder, my friend...steps on a ladder...



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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-30-03 @ 4:20 PM

[A.J.]

further warping the minds of some of the more gullible people who follow him and what he says.

See Randall Terry and Eric Rudolph.

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Red Sox Nation

[high fly]

Yerdaddy makes many good, reasonable points.
I would point out that after reading quite a bit about the terrorists and all, a few more things the extremists believe ideologically.
Bin Laden and others are not just trying to resurrect the old Mohammedan empire, but are dead set on it spreading across the globe.

They are convinced they can beat us.

Western society is percieved by them to be a mortal threat to them.

They divide the world in two areas- one is the Land of Islam, or submission .
The other is the Land of War, and in this part of the world, it is just fine and dandy to kill all.
It is the duty of all Muslims to participate in the killing in the Land of War.
In this struggle, it is acceptable and desirable to lie or otherwise decieve those in the Land of War, because anything goes there. The parts in the Koran about treating people nicely does not apply in the Land of War.


Oh, and by the way, it, uh, might be a good idea if the Saudi Arabian prince who has come out and urged the Muslims to kill westerners and for them to make all the Jewish women their slaves is no longer a welcome guest at a certain ranch in Crawford, Texas.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Yerdaddy]

Oh, and by the way, it, uh, might be a good idea if the Saudi Arabian prince who has come out and urged the Muslims to kill westerners and for them to make all the Jewish women their slaves is no longer a welcome guest at a certain ranch in Crawford, Texas.
You're confusing Crown Prince Abdullah, who suports a liberalizing of Saudi Arabia and opposes the Wahabbi clerics, and his half-brother Prince Nayef, who supports them. Abdullah went to Crawford to discuss the "Saudi Peace Plan" for Israel/Palestine with Bush in April. I don't know of Nayef ever going to Texas.

<a href="http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20040101faessay83105/michael-scott-doran/the-saudi-paradox.html" target="_blank>The Saudi Paradox</a>

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[high fly]

I'm aware of the diference.
What I am referring to is something I read in Robert Baer's latest book, Sleeping With the Devil.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Hey Wrestlngfan You Celebrate Christmas right? You believe in Jesus right? OK so you must be a fucking NAZI basterd. I sound stupid don't I? only a few stupid Muslims do that shit. So just because Hitler believed in Jesus doesn't make everyone who does a Nazi. and just because some asshole terrorist use Islam and the Koran for their despicable acts doesn't make it true. It doesn't say anywhere in the Koran about the 70 virgins or anything else. just like it didn't say in the Bible that Jews were scum and have to be whipped out. So please stop and fucking think before you make a stupid, uneducated and the worst fucking post i have ever seen.

.

Hey Kermit. What the fuck kind of observation is that by you? You hare fairly new and have 33 posts. Hitler killed jews, priests, nuns, invalids and any person who wasnt the master race. What makes you think that i am a nazi. Should i stoop down to your level and say that youre a terrorist sympathizer and gets his jollies off seeing mutilated bodies of schoolchildren on Israeli buses caused by MUSLIMS!!!!
Before you go judging posts read your fucking replies before posting them!!!

This message was edited by WRESTLINGFAN on 12-30-03 @ 5:47 PM

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Wanted to thank CHICKENHAWK for being the only one with enough balls to back me up on this topic. I knew this would get out of hand but i dont take anything back

Wake the hell up people. These Muslims hate us and our way of life. If you dont see the evidence watch the news.

IRA members dont take innocent people hostages, or maimand kill inncocent civilians them like Islamists do. Look at the 1972 Munich Olympics footage, The american embassy takeover in Iran, the numerous hijackings in the 80's the massacre at Rome and Vienna airports. The list goes on and on.

Some may call these sickos freedom fighters but they are nothing more than the scum of the earth, and if Bin Laden is so fucking brave then why is he hiding like a pussy?

This message was edited by WRESTLINGFAN on 12-30-03 @ 6:03 PM

[high fly]

I just replaced the master cylinder on my truck.
The new one leaks.
I have the balls to say that obviously all master cylinders leak.








" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 12-30-03 @ 6:05 PM

[Yerdaddy]

Wanted to thank CHICKENHAWK for being the only one with enough balls to back me up on this topic. I knew this would get out of hand but i dont take anything back.
Debates are not decided by "balls" you idiot. People have turned your ridiculous first post, (which met the qualifications by which Mojo threatened to lock this thread by calling on us to kill them all), into an intelligent debate. If you didn't want to hear anyone disagreeing with you then why did you make your first post look like a question? So far you've contributed nothing to this discussion, and you should probably try to keep it that way. For example:

In your first post:
There were the crusades also when they fought the christians and convert Europe to Islam
The Crusades were launched in 1095 by Pope Urban II against the Muslims. Not the other way around.
IRA members dont take innocent people hostages, or maimand kill inncocent civilians them like Islamists do.

21 July 1972 - Bloody Friday - The IRA sets off 26 bombs in Belfast killing nine people and injuring 130.

27 August 1979 - Mountbatten Assassination - Lord Mountbatten, uncle of Queen Elizabeth II, is murdered along with three others when his boat is blown up by an IRA bomb at Mullaghmore, Co. Sligo.

17 January 1992 - Teebane Crossroads - Seven Protestant constructions workers at a security base in Co. Tyrone are killed by an IRA bomb. The driver of their bus also dies.

24 April 1993 - Bishopsgate bomb - An IRA bomb containing one ton of fertilizer explosives goes off at the NatWest Tower in London. One is killed and 30 are injured. Damages amount to $1 billion.

23 October 1993 - Shankhill bomb - IRA detonates a bomb in a Belfast fish shop. Ten people die including one of the bombers; 57 are injured.

February 1996 - Canary Wharf bomb - The IRA announces the ceasefire will end. Scotland Yard receives warnings that a bomb is planted in the Canary Wharf area. At 7:01 PM a bomb explodes there killing two and injuring over a 100.

15 August 1998 - Omagh Bombing - 29 people are killed and over 200 wounded when a bomb explodes in Omagh. It is Northern Ireland's most deadly paramilitary attack. The blast is blamed on the Real IRA, a splinter group from the IRA.

<a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/etc/cron.html" target="_blank">frontline: the ira & sinn fein: chronology | PBS</a>

Some may call these sickos freedom fighters but they are nothing more than the scum of the earth, and if Bin Laden is so fucking brave then why is he hiding like a pussy?
Who here called them freedom fighters or Bin Laden brave? You're having an argument with yourself about your own private fantasy world. Tap out now. It's in the script.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[high fly]

I'm giving Yerdaddy a 9.8 on that one...

" and they ask me why I drink"

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Hey , YerDaddy, youre the one who should tap out you douchebag. If you want to object thats fine, but I stand by my statements, its too bad alot of other people who feel the same way as me wont express their opinions.

As for you, go side with the Muslim wacko terrorists you jackass

[high fly]

I give Wrestlingfan a .2 on that one.

.1 to even respond at all
.1 for spelling his own name right.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[Yerdaddy]

its too bad alot of other people who feel the same way as me wont express their opinions.
Maybe their batting helmets are too tight?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[high fly]

I was at the shoe store and tried on some shoes I liked.
They didn't fit.
That means all shoes don't fit.






(but I don't have the balls to admit it)





" and they ask me why I drink"

[Bestinshow]

Hey high fly, did you read anything about the dark haired people? I was waiting for you to tie in your posts about the dark hair people.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>
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[high fly]

Yeahhhh.
All of the terrorists have had dark hair, so, using our friend's logic, it is obvious to one and all that all dark haired people are terrorists.

Y'know, the ol' "p implies q" stuff.






" and they ask me why I drink"

[Bestinshow]

You mean thats not true? I got my hair lightened for nothing? Damn.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>
<marquee>I am not part of any percentage. I am the Bestinshow<marquee>
[center]Kiss a Doberman Today

[Bestinshow]

I still hate dark haired people. Except my wife. She has dark hair. I don't hate her. Sometimes.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>
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[Bestinshow]

than again maybe I do have to think about that dark haired stuff.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>
<marquee>I am not part of any percentage. I am the Bestinshow<marquee>
[center]Kiss a Doberman Today

[high fly]

I still hate dark haired people. Except my wife. She has dark hair. I don't hate her. Sometimes.



She's a terrorist, isn't she?

See, I told you so!



" and they ask me why I drink"

[sr71blackbird]

This is just my opinion, but I think that the terrorists are doing what they are doing as an attempt to erode our finances so that we dont have the money to fight them. Attacking us and our allies by giving us many small wounds, hoping we slowly bleed to death. If you say thats myopic, its ok. Its generally understood that an army travels on its stomach, right? Without nourashment, we dont have the energy to fight back or wage war. We have interests in the world that benefit us, and its the oil that lubricates our machine (literally). They want to sell it to us, we dont want to use all of ours and we dont want to pay a huge amount for it either. The leadership of the places where this oil happens to be are not acting in the interest of the people who also inhabit the land that this sits under, and they use the beliefs of those people to motivate them to act in their own interests. Isreal, I dont know why we bother with them, but we do. I dont know what they offer us that justifys our protecting them as we do. Im not insensative to their plight, living where they live, being hunted down for the better part of the last century and beyond and all theyve been through. We should act in our own interest, because after all is said and done, we owe it to ourselves because we are free and should love that freedom and respect it and do all we can to protect it at all costs. Thats just my feeling on it.

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<center><B>My Thanks to Reefdwella for the sig-pic!</B></center>

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[TheMojoPin]

These Muslims hate us and our way of life.

Yeah, THOSE Muslims.

Thanks for backing the rest of us up.

And knock off the personal attacks. Kermit, you too.


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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Bestinshow]

We should act in our own interest, because after all is said and done, we owe it to ourselves because we are free and should love that freedom and respect it and do all we can to protect it at all costs. Thats just my feeling on it.


I guess we should only love our freedom and screw everything else. After all, we live in a fish bowl. Let the whole world kill themselves and we will just mind our business and have a big love fest here.
By the way, we tried that during WW 2 and that worked out well.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>
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[center]Kiss a Doberman Today

[Tall_James]

Hi! I just got here...what did I miss?


<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=tall_james">

[Bestinshow]

Nutin, same shit, different thread.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>
<marquee>I am not part of any percentage. I am the Bestinshow<marquee>
[center]Kiss a Doberman Today

[FiveB247]

Can anyone really say that any religion is peaceful? The course of history has been decided mostly by religious arguments, wars in the names of god, etc... Holy wars, Crusades, etc, have led to the most destruction in history. Interpretation of "holy scriptures" whether it be the bible or the koran or the torah all lead to serious implications by zealots or governments or leaders. To say a religion is peaceful or hateful is nonsense. Whatever the religion is, or the scripture, they mostly all say in one way or another, "there is only one true faith and all others are wrong." That in itself is why religion separates and does not combine humanity into one. Spirituality is a specific person's feeling and connection with a god. Religion is interpretation by others to control the masses and create a set of morals, guides and appraisal for all to answer to.

I'm sure I'll hear plenty of stuff back for this....but after all, I do remember hearing that most religions are forgiving and ask not to judge others...right?!

http://www.waste.uk.com/gfx/bear.gif

Why practice democratic values when you can practice capitalism?

[FMJeff]

A couple of quick questions and then I will fade back into the safety of the All-Consuming Shadows.

1.)What race are the Muslims?

The nation of Islam is worldwide, comprised mostly of Arab and Persian descent, but also include Indian, Pakistani, African, American, Chinese...etc.

2.) Where exactly are the Palestinian Oil fields?

I don't understand your question. Oil fields owned by Palestians? (Saudi's) Or Oil fields in Palestine...

3.)Aren't there any Palestinian Civilians?

Yes.

4.) Isn't there a deferment program for the Israelis?

I don't know. Under special circumstances, I would imagine. But it is a law that Israeli citizens must serve in the military for a set amount of time.

5.) If you abolish religion will humans think of something else to go to war about?

Man, as an animal, is extremely territorial. (Check out a map sometime.) We are also very competitive, often times greedy, suspicious, jealous, or flat out insane. That being said, losing religion leaves us one less thing to fight about.

6.) When was the last time Jerry Falwell incited violence?

You're a fucking idiot:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/rel_war/falwell_jews.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A40771-2001Nov16&notFound=true



AND READ THIS DEBATE ON CROSSFIRE ABOUT THE VERY SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD:

http://www.gainesvillehumanists.org/falwell-cnn.htm

Man I love it when I'm right.


7.)Isn't enlightenment the enemy of ignorance?

Yes. When he preaches it, let me know.

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[high fly]

SR71, I think you are on the right track with your post of the 30th. I do not think that it is a primary goal of the terrorists to bleed us dry with all the alerts, I doubt they are blind to it either.
Our threat response needs some refinement.
If the threat is from planes flying in from Europe, there is no need for the police force of Holly Springs, Mississippi to call out more cops and for the emergency response teams there to be on heightened alert. It just wastes valuable resources.

In Iraq we have wasted even more resources that would have been better spent finishing off Al Qaida and the Taliban, rather than give them time to regroup, rest, plan and reorganize from the relative safety of western Pakistan.
We burned up a shitload of equipment in Iraq and our military is now dangerously low on items like tracks for armored vehicles, helicopter rotors, cruise missiles and spare parts.

DULCE BELLUM INEXPERTIS




" and they ask me why I drink"

[high fly]

Oh, and by the way, it, uh, might be a good idea if the Saudi Arabian prince who has come out and urged the Muslims to kill westerners and for them to make all the Jewish women their slaves is no longer a welcome guest at a certain ranch in Crawford, Texas.
You're confusing Crown Prince Abdullah, who suports a liberalizing of Saudi Arabia and opposes the Wahabbi clerics, and his half-brother Prince Nayef, who supports them. Abdullah went to Crawford to discuss the "Saudi Peace Plan" for Israel/Palestine with Bush in April. I don't know of Nayef ever going to Texas.




Hey Yerdaddy, I finally found where I got that from.
Sleeping With the Devil by Robert Baer, page 181.
Here's a coupla quotes:
"In December 1999 the press caught wind of Azouzi's arrangement with the islamic militants. It turned out that he had been funding a fellow bin Laden traveler, Sa'd al-Burayk, who in turn was giving the money to Islamic groups in Chechniya to slaughter Russians, military and civilian alike Any leftover money, Burayk shipped on to militant Islamic causes...."

[Azouzi is a son of the King of Saudi Arabia and wields much power]

"...Burayk accompanied Crown Prince 'Abdallah on a state visit to Crawford, Texas, in April 2002 to meet with George W. Bush. Bush, ever the genial host, didn't ask about Chechnya, bin Laden, or Burayk's latest public exhortations for Muslim men to enslave Jewish women. I suppose this is what State means by "deference"."

Check out this book. It is a good source by an expert former CIA officer who operated in the Mideast and who explains how we got so tangled up with Saudi Arabia, as well as how deep those ties go, how they are contrary to our best interests, how we have overlooked their support for those who have killed Americans, and more.

" and they ask me why I drink"





This message was edited by high fly on 1-2-04 @ 1:18 PM

[ChrisTheCop]

First, I must applaud the members of our board for taking what might easily have become a bashing thread, into a discussion of the subject matter peppered with varying (usually) valid thoughts and ideas. I find it odd that when the thread (at least twice) could have been locked, it wasnt, but happily, it got back on track and is now a pretty decent debate. I hope the mods take note that, given a chance most threads can find their way.

<img src="http://rfcop.50megs.com/images/newyeargif.gif">

[curtoid]

What race are the Muslims?

Muslims are not a race. Many Muslims are Asian and Africans, just as many here in the United States are Caucasian.

Also...there are Arabs that are Christian.

Speaking of Africa - I have some cousins who are in Mozambique doing Christian missionary work (don't get me started - eeeesh). Like much of Africa, this area is highly Muslim.

At the end of Ramodon in October they were surprised when their Muslim neighbors came by with a basket of fruit to share. My cousin thought they would turn around and do the same at Christmas (give the Muslims a taste of their own medicine! haha), however before they had a chance, the Muslims stopped by to wish them a happy Christmas, and gave them another basket of fruit!

Meanwhile, in Tanzania ANOTHER cousin who is also doing missionary work (the sister of the guy in Mozambique) desperately needed a baby for their live nativity they were doing at the church, and their Muslim neighbor was eager to let their baby daughter participate.

Anyway, I've pretty much avoided this threat, because I knew it would drive me nuts. One of my closest friends in the world (going back to High School) is Muslim, like her mother, and to hear blanket statements really make me go ape-shit. Born and raised in Washington DC, her brother worked for the first George Bush in the White House, and her brother in law is currently in Iraq as a US fighter. Above and beyond anything, she is a woman of peace and the tensions since 9/11 of raw, unfocused unapologetic bigoted hatred towards Muslims have kept her housebound and afraid even to go out (even though she doesn't "look" Muslim).

She is no longer the person who I knew who would go see Nine Inch Nails at the old 9:30 Club, or sneak into see the new Coen Brothers movie, or go bowling or whatever. She's become depressed and afraid, and I have a feeling her story is not unique.

[KOP]

[newport king]

At the end of Ramodon in October they were surprised when their Muslim neighbors came by with a basket of fruit to share. My cousin thought they would turn around and do the same at Christmas (give the Muslims a taste of their own medicine! haha), however before they had a chance, the Muslims stopped by to wish them a happy Christmas, and gave them another basket of fruit!

that's how they lure you in, first it's ramadan fruit, then happy christmas fruit next thing you know...BAM!! the infidels have dysentery!

~another newport king joint~

[TheMojoPin]

I find it odd that when the thread (at least twice) could have been locked, it wasnt, but happily, it got back on track and is now a pretty decent debate.

Man, what the 'eff?

I get shit for threatening to lock a thread, so I only post warnings instead of laying down the pimp hand, and now I get shit for NOT locking the thread.

BANNINGS FOR ALL.

AND THEIR MOTHERS.

Now I must weep.

I do not think that it is a primary goal of the terrorists to bleed us dry with all the alerts, I doubt they are blind to it either.

I think it's very clear that our financial capabilities are targeted. It's no little coincidence that they tried so hard to take out the WTC twice.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[LiquidCourage]

Why is it that the only religion liberals don't hate is post 9/11 Islam?

[TheMojoPin]

Only fools hate ANY religion in its entirety.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[The_Fat_Mole]

Aside from Buddhism there really is no religion of peace in my opinion. Every religion has it's own values and because of this it tends to automaticaly segregate people who are not of the religion.

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[LiquidCourage]

For some reason Islam gets a pass all the time. When people talk about Christianity, it's in the tone of, "Those fucking annoying Jesus freaks!" Whenever Islam comes up and someone critisizes it it changes to, "We have to be tolerant of all religions. Islam is a religion of peace", etc.
It doesn't make sense.

[high fly]

Why is it that the only religion liberals don't hate is post 9/11 Islam?




Call me crazy, but I think that the Reverend Martin Luther King, Reverend Jesse Jackson and Reverend Al Sharpton have a pretty high regard for Christianity, but that's just me.

Y'know, all that feed the hungry, house the homeless, visit those in prison, turn the other cheek, love your enemy, be forgiving- kinda stuff...

" and they ask me why I drink"

[TheMojoPin]

For some reason Islam gets a pass all the time. When people talk about Christianity, it's in the tone of, "Those fucking annoying Jesus freaks!" Whenever Islam comes up and someone critisizes it it changes to, "We have to be tolerant of all religions. Islam is a religion of peace", etc.

No.

You're oversimplifying and generalizing because it lets you believe what you WANT to believe.

YOU feel someone not all-out condemning Islam is "giving it a pass." That's not a useful sentiment. We condemn Islamic extremists and terrorist fundamentalists. NOBODY is defending those people. But at the same time, we find it pointless to condemn a massive group of people who AREN'T those things. We recognize the source, but we wisely choose to not waste our time throwing tantrums at some phantom boogeyman that doesn't exist. But acknowledging that doesn't give you something to impotently rail against, so I can only assume that you conciously choose to ignore it.

Same with the "Jesus freaks". Very few liberals except the hardcore nutjobs bash ALL Christians. Most of us, when we mock "Jesus freaks", are typically going after THOSE people. The "God hates fags"-types. The one's where since they think Jesus fills THEIR lives, he needs to fill the life of EVERYONE around them. Those are NOT all Christians. Those are a certain segment of the Christian population.

And if you have such a problem with these liberal over-generalizations, why do you have no problem over-generalizing all liberals every chance you get?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[high fly]

I'm giving Mojo a 9.87 on that one...

" and they ask me why I drink"

[CaptClown]

1.)What race are the Muslims?

The nation of Islam is worldwide, comprised mostly of Arab and Persian descent, but also include Indian, Pakistani, African, American, Chinese...etc.
Exactly. So it isn't exactly racist to be prejudiced against a religious group?
2.) Where exactly are the Palestinian Oil fields?

I don't understand your question. Oil fields owned by Palestians? (Saudi's) Or Oil fields in Palestine...
There isn't any oil in what is known as Palestine, never has been.

3.)Aren't there any Palestinian Civilians?

Yes.
Exactly

4.) Isn't there a deferment program for the Israelis?


I don't know. Under special circumstances, I would imagine. But it is a law that Israeli citizens must serve in the military for a set amount of time.
I do believe they have programs for people that don't want to be involved in the military.

5.) If you abolish religion will humans think of something else to go to war about?

Man, as an animal, is extremely territorial. (Check out a map sometime.) We are also very competitive, often times greedy, suspicious, jealous, or flat out insane. That being said, losing religion leaves us one less thing to fight about.
You can take away all the excuses in the universe and man will invent more to fight. It is our nature.



You're a fucking idiot:
I do sometimes resemble that.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/rel_war/falwell_jews.htm
Talking trash and taking the money of rubes is not inciting violence. It doesn't even quote what he supposedly did say.

AND READ THIS DEBATE ON CROSSFIRE ABOUT THE VERY SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD:

http://www.gainesvillehumanists.org/falwell-cnn.htm

Man I love it when I'm right.
I read it and it would take some serious twisting and some really misreading between the line to get incitement of violence out of that snake oil. Jerry Falwell knows what lines he can cross and what lines he can't that is why he hasn't fallen like a few of the other bible belt evangelists. I don't trust him as far as I can throw him, but you haven't given anything really concrete.

7.)Isn't enlightenment the enemy of ignorance?

Yes. When he preaches it, let me know.

What does enlightenment have to do with Jerry Falwell?

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army
Poison Clan rocks the world

This message was edited by CaptClown on 1-5-04 @ 12:27 AM

[The Blowhard]

Fundamentalist fanatic Christians blow up abortion clinics and preach hatred against gays, Jews and others who aren't "saved".
Fundamentalist fanatic Jews (people like the late Meir Kahane) want to deport all Arabs from Israel and have no problem calling for their extermination.
Fundamentalist fanatic Muslims crash planes into buildings, commit suicide bombings and preach hatred against Jews and Christians.
The key here is "fanaticism". They are a small minority of all faiths, and they are the problem.

Main Entry: faúnatúic
Pronunciation: f&-'na-tik
Variant(s): or fa.nat.i.cal /-ti-k&l/
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin fanaticus inspired by a deity, frenzied, from fanum temple -more at FEAST
Date: 1550
: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion <they're fanatic about politics>
- fanatic noun
- faúnatúiúcalúly /f&-'na-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
- faúnatúiúcalúness /-k&l-n&s/ noun

The best religion is the most tolerant.

[monsterone]

The best religion is the most tolerant.


they all are, except people will interpret them to meet their own means. using religion to serve yourself must get you a special, deep place in hell.

<center><IMG SRC="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01">


MO¥+ErO¥E.
moe & steels, you are greatly missed... you too horde king

</center>

[serVice]

i was reading through something else and came upon this: The 2nd part is the part more important to this discussion. (http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/burning/africa-bombings.html)
It was written by Salam Al-marayati, Director
of the Muslim Public Affairs Council in Los Angeles, and says a few things regarding this.


i've got Rembrandt as my right hand and Solo as my pilot.
"Yes! Hurrah for the Revolution! Always! In spite of all! But me, I am no dupe, I have never been a dupe. I cry Hurrah for the Republic the way I would cry Hurrah for Destruction! Hurrah for Expiation! Hurrah for Punishment! Hurrah for Death!".

[monsterone]

The Koran, the authoritative source of Islamic law, established that justice is the highest ethical value ordained by God and that harming innocent people for any end, political or otherwise, is an unjust act violating Koranic morality: "God enjoins justice and the doing of what is good and generosity toward one's fellow people, and he forbids all that is shameful and all that runs counter to reason, in addition to aggression."


like i said... read the article fot bin laden's quote (what he wants is not religious)

<center><IMG SRC="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01">


MO¥+ErO¥E.
moe & steels, you are greatly missed... you too horde king

</center>

[The_Fat_Mole]

Fundamentalist fanatic Christians blow up abortion clinics and preach hatred against gays, Jews and others who aren't "saved".
Fundamentalist fanatic Jews (people like the late Meir Kahane) want to deport all Arabs from Israel and have no problem calling for their extermination.
Fundamentalist fanatic Muslims crash planes into buildings, commit suicide bombings and preach hatred against Jews and Christians.
The key here is "fanaticism". They are a small minority of all faiths, and they are the problem.

Main Entry: faúnatúic
Pronunciation: f&-'na-tik
Variant(s): or fa.nat.i.cal /-ti-k&l/
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin fanaticus inspired by a deity, frenzied, from fanum temple -more at FEAST
Date: 1550
: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion <they're fanatic about politics>
- fanatic noun
- faúnatúiúcalúly /f&-'na-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
- faúnatúiúcalúness /-k&l-n&s/ noun

The best religion is the most tolerant.






Fundamentalist fanatic Jews (people like the late Meir Kahane) want to deport all Arabs from Israel and have no problem calling for their extermination.

First of all heckler, if that is your real name this sentence should not refer to fundamentalist fanatic Jews are plurel. Because there was only 1 in the history of the human race. Second of all is it really fanatic to want to deport people from your country who want to kill you?

[high fly]

Meir Kahane


Definitely had dark hair...




" and they ask me why I drink"

[silera]

Was Jesus that one fanatic Jew?


<center>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silera/files/Silera/sig4.gif
<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

[TheMojoPin]

No, he was a FANTASTIC Jew.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[The_Fat_Mole]

No, not Jesus. But close

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<IMG SRC="http://www.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/ca4/abe/ca4abe45-7076-4031-97f7-d10a56911353">

[Bestinshow]

I confess. Its me! I`m the one fanatical jew! But most people just call me the one.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>
<marquee>I am not part of any percentage. I am the Bestinshow<marquee>
[center]Kiss a Doberman Today

[monsterone]

here's what you were looking for (http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/news/08/10/turkey.wifebeating.ap/)


<center><IMG SRC="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01">


MO¥+ErO¥E.
moe & steels, you are greatly missed... you too horde king

</center>

[El Mudo]

I can't speak for anyone else or their beliefs on anything, but I am a born again Christian. I don't try to go around and "convert" people, I don't tell people they are going to hell, I pretty much keep it on the DL unless someone specifically asks me about it, or I'm reading my Bible at work on break time. People like Falwell and Robertson, their intentions are good, but they are also giving people like me a bad name, they make everyone think we are hate mongers and bad people. I don't believe the things that those guys teach, I believe in what Jesus taught, and what he taught was that you must love your neighbor. He didn't say to go around and kill people who don't believe what I do, or to castigate them for choosing not to believe anything. I look at it as, its not my position, or my right to criticize anyone for what religion they may choose to follow, thats their own choice...

About Islam especially, is it a religion of peace? I honestly don't know. I've never read the Koran, personally, I don't know everything about their belief system nor do i presume to know. I assume most of them are honest, hard working people like me, and just like in my religion, there are fanatics among them....

Basically, its like the Paul McCartney song.."Live and let live"

http://midatlantic.comcastsportsnet.com/images/maryland_logo.gif
<marquee> M-A-R-Y-L-A-N-D MARYLAND...WILL WINNNNNN!! </marquee>

[high fly]

Paul McCartney?
Definitely gots the dark hair.
Better keep an eye on him.

" and they ask me why I drink"

[furie]

At least 14 youths have been stoned to death in Baghdad in the past three weeks in what appears to be a campaign by Shiite militants against youths wearing Western-style "emo" clothes and haircuts, security and hospital sources say.

Militants in Shiite neighborhoods where the stonings have taken place circulated lists on Saturday naming more youths targeted to be killed if they do not change the way they dress.

The killings have taken place since Iraq's interior ministry drew attention to the "emo" subculture last month, labeling it "Satanism" and ordering a community police force to stamp it out. (http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/10/10634539-iraqi-teens-stoned-to-death-for-wearing-emo-clothes)

[cougarjake13]

thats insane

[high fly]

thats insane

Americans shoot each other over a pair of tennis shoes.

[hanso]

Americans shoot each other over a pair of tennis shoes.

That puts clit cutting in perspective WD.

[PapaBear]

So basicly, they're doing what we wish we could do.

[Furtherman]

You give a people democracy, this is what happens.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Now I really dont agree with Eric Holder but this time he's right. Why were NYPD in NJ monitoring Muslims?The slippery slope of having a quasi national democracy of not having police depts operating in their jurisdiction caused this infraction. Chris Christie was right to call out Ray Kelly

[Judge Smails]

thats insane

Insane, or the greatest idea ever?

[hanso]

Now I really dont agree with Eric Holder but this time he's right. Why were NYPD in NJ monitoring Muslims?The slippery slope of having a quasi national democracy of not having police depts operating in their jurisdiction caused this infraction. Chris Christie was right to call out Ray Kelly

Funny that's how I see the immigration overreach.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Funny that's how I see the immigration overreach.

Holder admitted he never read the Arizona bill.

[high fly]

Now I really dont agree with Eric Holder but this time he's right. Why were NYPD in NJ monitoring Muslims?The slippery slope of having a quasi national democracy of not having police depts operating in their jurisdiction caused this infraction. Chris Christie was right to call out Ray Kelly


A question I have is why has the Joint Terrorism Task Force in NYC been left out of these investigations? After all, it has FBI and CIA resources that would have come in handy.
It would be one thing if they were catching bad guys, but so far...........nothing.....

[A.J.]

At least 14 youths have been stoned to death in Baghdad in the past three weeks in what appears to be a campaign by Shiite militants against youths wearing Western-style "emo" clothes and haircuts, security and hospital sources say.

Militants in Shiite neighborhoods where the stonings have taken place circulated lists on Saturday naming more youths targeted to be killed if they do not change the way they dress.

The killings have taken place since Iraq's interior ministry drew attention to the "emo" subculture last month, labeling it "Satanism" and ordering a community police force to stamp it out. (http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/10/10634539-iraqi-teens-stoned-to-death-for-wearing-emo-clothes)

We should do that here.

[spoon]

Now I really dont agree with Eric Holder but this time he's right. Why were NYPD in NJ monitoring Muslims?The slippery slope of having a quasi national democracy of not having police depts operating in their jurisdiction caused this infraction. Chris Christie was right to call out Ray Kelly

Come on, perhaps they just want what you want!? Right?

... If these maniacs want to go to heaven so badly, lets do the job for them and destroy them before more will be done to us

Im sure alot of people on this board feel the same way about this subject

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Come on, perhaps they just want what you want!? Right?

My views have changed signifigantly. Let them Kill each other why should we be fodder for their religious dogma