Bush Calls for Immigration Overhaul [Archive]

TheMojoPin

01-07-2004, 12:42 PM

Hey, maybe he IS a uniter...

Yeah, yeah, I give it a couple hours before the "immigrants are destroying this country" schtick starts rolling in.

I listened to the speech, and to me it basically was Bush saying, "Mexicans, you can keep your shitty jobs." The people targeted in this speech basically take the jobs none of us want and help to strengthen our economy, and all that they contribute by doing this far, FAR outweighs any overdramatic "drain" attributed to them. Bush is essentially saying, "you may have these jobs because everyone else refuses to take them."

Most importantly, he's talking about streamlining and making the immigration system more effective and efficient as opposed to absolutely chaotic shitpit it is now, which is probably the most dangerous part of it all, seeing as terrorists seem to have no problem getting into this country LEGALLY.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-7-04 @ 5:47 PM

monsterone

01-07-2004, 01:08 PM

"As a nation that values immigrants and depends on immigrants, we should have immigration laws that work and make us proud," the president said. "Yet today we do not. Instead we see many employers turning to the illegal labor market. We see millions of hard-working men and women condemned to fear and insecurity in a massive undocumented economy.

"Illegal entry across our borders makes more difficult the urgent task of securing the homeland," the president said.

i didn't hear the speach in it's entirety, but there was a few clips on npr. he said he wanted to close the borders to criminals, traffickers, terrorists, etc...

i'm interpreting his speech as saying he wants to crack down on businesses that beneifit from illegal immigrants, and to tax the businesses and illegal workers.

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SatCam

01-07-2004, 01:42 PM

Can he atleast lower minimum wage for Mexicans? I mean, they're suppose to work on the books, but...

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NewYorkDragons80

01-07-2004, 01:48 PM

Isn't it funny how the NAFTA people are suddenly against this?

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42nd-delay

01-07-2004, 02:01 PM

The people targeted in this speech basically take the jobs none of us want and help to strengthen our economy

This seems to be the prevelant theory, but I wonder if it's really that no one else wants the jobs, or that illegals will work for nothing, preventing the jobs from being better paid.

I am surprised he took this position, which I imagine will alienate some of his supporters (apparently, it already has).

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high fly

01-07-2004, 02:16 PM

Bush campaigned on limiting immigration. Regular posters will recall my clubbing him for meeting with Robert Goulet look-a-like Mexican President Fox right after Bush got elected. Back then they signed an agreement that would increase immigration from Mexico.
This is no surprise to me.

A big key to limiting immigration down there is to address the causes of it.
We are a big magnet, economically to the Mexicans.
Creating an economically thriving area in Mexico that would act as a similar magnet would help much.

If Bush would quit lying, it would help also.

" and they ask me why I drink"

A.J.

01-07-2004, 03:21 PM

furie

01-07-2004, 04:09 PM

Mojo, it's not the low paying shit jobs that I'm concerned about. In reality, there's no new visa being made here, they're simply removing the caps on the H1b visa and expanding who can get it.

You should look into a little company called Tata Consulting Services. TCS does computer consulting. they offer jobs at a very low salary, where no US employee with college loans and such could afford to take it. then they get workers from India exclusively. H1B visas are 3 year visas extendable up to six. then when that up, they get promoted and put in a different classification, L1 visas. This is another 3 year up to 6 visa. once that's up, they've been gainfully employed in the US for 12 years and qualify to adjust to a LPR. It's basically legalize alien smuggling. Tata is currently limited to 10,000 visas. This would change all of that. Tata is just one of several companies that do this.

Bush says his new plan will allow for a plan to get the aliens back home after 6 years, but lets be real, there's no incentive to leave for them.

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ChickenHawk

01-07-2004, 04:13 PM

This doesn't affect my decision to submit a write-in vote for "Hollywood" Hulk Hogan come election time.

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HBox

01-07-2004, 04:20 PM

Do people realize how expensive and counterproductive it would be to scour the streets and remove evry illegal alien? This is a great move to ensure at least some of them will now pay taxes and get into the system. This way if they don't eventually become citizens, we can more easily locate them and kick them out.

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sr71blackbird

01-07-2004, 04:56 PM

Its scary, but soon, there will only be a tenth of the jobs that are currently being done here, by people who live in other countrys. All call centers are relocating to cheap areas, and then over to India. I hope the government has alot of money in its budget for all the people that are going to be unemployed within the next 5 years. The north east is going to become a ghost town

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The_Fat_Mole

01-07-2004, 05:04 PM

I'm sure this has nothing to do with his Latina sister-in-law

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furie

01-07-2004, 05:07 PM

i think it's more of a lead in for Jeb in 2008

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monsterone

01-07-2004, 07:13 PM

i began to think about my earlier post after i left work, and started to think- worst case senerios. and i kind of agree with furie: essentially, we could have domestic out-sourcing.

i also agree with hbox, to a degree. we're not going to kick any immigrants out ever. our nation was built on the blood of new comers, every generation goes through it. but it would definitely benefit us to tax the workers and the businesses.

and long island is screwed. they thrive on hispanic labor- from mowing lawns to working in kitchens, they do everything. but i'll tell you what, even though they steal jobs from hs kids, they do twice the job those kids could ever do.

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The_Fat_Mole

01-07-2004, 07:42 PM

I think what people are worried about is not that our country will be over run by immigrants, it is that our Country will be over run by NON-WHITE immigrants. And they very well should be worried because right now the government is selling us out.

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Se7en

01-07-2004, 07:47 PM

Awful blatant pandering to the Latin population in an attempt to encourage an upswing in support by Latin voters for the election later this year.

FUCK illegal immigrants. Of ALL races.

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HBox

01-07-2004, 08:11 PM

Awful blatant pandering to the Latin population in an attempt to encourage an upswing in support by Latin voters for the election later this year.

You need to look at the birght side. If he's re-elected, you'll be living in a conservative wonderland for 4 years. I'm already scouting out Canadian real estate.

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TheMojoPin

01-07-2004, 11:30 PM

FUCK illegal immigrants. Of ALL races.

Again, do you actually think the country would be better off economically if all the illegals were suddenly gone? These people are the grimy backbone of our modern economic system. We would die without them. We can only complain about them with such ease and from such a perch BECAUSE of what they've done.

I'm not saying it's the "right" answer, far from it, but it's how our modern system of living over the last 150+ years has developed, whether you want to like it or not. This is nothing new, especially not in the short history of this country. Can you point to a time during our "modern age" when we WEREN'T relying on illegals for the cheap labor and economic grunt work?

Bush said it himself...he said that these illegals take the jobs most of us "won't take"...not choose to not take or losing the chance to take them...WON'T. I have no doubt this was written in VERY specifically. "Real Americans" usually won't take the jobs, no matter what. It's considered "beneath them."

As it's been said in this thread, this is a great opportunity, if the administration follows through, to not only help get these people "legal", taxed and tracked, but also to fix/streamline/overhaul or woefully inadequate immigration system overall.

This is something should be bringing both parties together as that it has the best interests for BOTH sides.

Careful now, Se7en...a few more actions like this, a ceasefire action with North Korea, and I could easily see myself voting for Monsieur Bush come Novemeber...

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Se7en

01-08-2004, 09:12 AM

You need to look at the birght side. If he's re-elected, you'll be living in a conservative wonderland for 4 years.

Bah. Mojo makes good arguments but I'm still pissed about this. I don't take the "they're stealing American jobs!" opinion, but my anger stems more from the fact that outside of the pandering (which annoys me) I don't have any confidence in Bush to REALLY fix the immigration problems out there. He'll do just enough to sway a somewhat larger percentage of Latin voters his way than he had in 2000.

I'm already scouting out Canadian real estate.

You stay your ass here in the States with me. Don't start talking silly talk now. We're not turning Orwellian just yet.

Mojo - don't you dangle that carrot in front of me!!! ;p

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high fly

01-08-2004, 09:18 AM

High fly- dependable as ever

Heh heh heh.
AND HOW ABOUT SOME PROPS FOR MY "ROBERT GOULET LOOK-A-LIKE PRESIDENT FOX"- LINE?

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TheMojoPin

01-08-2004, 10:03 AM

Even if this is just fancy "pandering", it's still a mountain more than any of the current crop of Democrats are even bothering to try and offer.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-8-04 @ 3:50 PM

The_Fat_Mole

01-08-2004, 11:30 AM

if Bush gets re-elected He will do something about illegal immigration from south America. Why can't he do it now? He needs the hyspanic vote. Why will he do it in his second term? Because you can only be president twice.

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high fly

01-08-2004, 11:35 AM

Why would he have to in his second term?

And do we need anything new or wouldn't it be better to just enforce the laws we have?

Listening to Bush announce this thing was bizarre. He sounded schizo to me, first making a case for strong enforcement of the laws and all, then promoting this amnesty plan that seemed to contradict what he was saying...

" and they ask me why I drink"

This message was edited by high fly on 1-8-04 @ 3:40 PM

monsterone

01-08-2004, 11:47 AM

Awful blatant pandering to the Latin population in an attempt to encourage an upswing in support by Latin voters for the election later this year.

both sides are doing it. did you here the dem debate yesterday? they're all sucking the dicks of the largest growing minority to secure their futures as the party who supports hispanics. now it's a one-up contest.

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A.J.

01-08-2004, 12:25 PM

I don't take the "they're stealing American jobs!" opinion

Neither do I. The jobs are there but people born here don't opt to take them.

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furie

01-08-2004, 01:35 PM

And do we need anything new or wouldn't it be better to just enforce the laws we have?

that's exactly it, the laws and policies in place now (not including this change) are very effective tools, when enforced. The whole immigration system just got an overhaul by being merged with customs, and then broken back into 2 agencies again, my head still spinning on that one.

but the system that needs an overhaul is the state department. they're the one's issuing visas. they're not connected to ICE's central database, so they usually don't know not to issue a visa to mr. illeagl.

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high fly

01-10-2004, 06:42 AM

Right on, furie.
Hell, in some countries, to get a visa, you don't even have to ask for it personally, you can get one by mail.
Until recently, they were doing that in Saudi Arabia.
Whoever came up with that idea needs to have his hand held in a toaster.

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furie

01-10-2004, 03:23 PM

often the visa isuance is done through the travel agency.

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TheMojoPin

01-10-2004, 04:26 PM

The whole immigration system just got an overhaul by being merged with customs, and then broken back into 2 agencies again, my head still spinning on that one.

That's just par for the course.

Part of the intelligence failure leading up to 9/11 was the behavior between the CIA, FBI and NSA towards each other. So what's the answer? Create ANOTHER agency (Homeland Security) that's doing various jobs and duties that are SUPPOSED to be covered by the already exisiting organizations? Eh, maybe the layers of red tape will buffer the bomb blast from actually killing me.

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high fly

01-11-2004, 10:56 AM

One of the perks of the job is that as prez, you get all kinds of cool mementos like jerseys fom champeenship sports teams.

The Mexicans ought to give him a matador"s cape and one of those pretty, tight fitting matador's uniforms with all the intricate curly-cues in the design.
that's what Bush is doing after all, just-a ushering in the immigrants at a time when unemployment is just under 6% (when he took office, it was around 4%)

" and they ask me why I drink"