Legalize Prostitution? [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

HordeKing1

09-02-2001, 11:16 AM

Of course it should be legal. Moreover, it should be a regulated and licensed profession with mandatory health checks for the women involved and the men who frequent them.

For better or worse, prostitution will continue whether it is legal or not. As it stands, the women involved are often beaten, killed and infected with STDs. Although they do all the "work," the vast majority of their earnings are turned over to pimps or organized crime families. This is obviously not fair to the women involved. It is also not fair to the government, which loses a major source of tax revenue.

Legalizing prostitution would cut the power of organized crime, eliminating a major source of it's seedier side, protect the financial and physical health of the women involved and raise needed tax revenue for the government. (We need some way to make up for the %59 billion dollar fuck up that Bush's tax "rebate" cost the tax payers.)

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adolescentmasturbator

09-02-2001, 02:49 PM

Isn't the government just a legal form of organized crime?

BTW, 20 Dems voted for the rebate in the senate. Both parties serve the elite.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

HordeKing1

09-02-2001, 11:08 PM

ADOLESCENTMASTURBATOR - 20 democrats and how many republicans?

You're making comparisons that just aren't there.

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adolescentmasturbator

09-03-2001, 12:44 PM

Let me honestly ask you is there any substantial differences between the Democratic and Republican parties? They do nothing but serve corporate interests.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

HordeKing1

09-03-2001, 02:13 PM

ADOLESCENTMASTURBATOR - Democrats have historically been liberal while Republicans have historically been conservative, many of them right wing religious fundementalists. That's reason enough to stay far far away from Republicans.

There are of course individual differences b/w people. But you asked for a general difference b/w the parties and there it is.

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CYYYFYYY

09-03-2001, 06:38 PM

I agree it is not hurting
anyone. Of course i would
never use one...........

David the Franchize
Let them eat Cake!

adolescentmasturbator

09-03-2001, 06:50 PM

Democrats were the more conservative party up until around the Roosevelt era and the new deal. The reason I find them the same is because they both rarely serve the people's interests but rather interests of gigantic corporations.

And as for the other thread which you locked, you obviously wanted to end the discussion but try reading the book "Fateful Triangle" by Noam Chomsky. It will help give you an idea of where I am coming from on that issue. And you can't call that book racist since it's written by a Jew. Chomsky also gets a lot of his info from Jewish sources so it is almost impossible to call it racist. Whatever I'm done on that issue anyway.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

HordeKing1

09-04-2001, 05:02 AM

ADOLESCENTMASTURBATOR - Even if we were to accept hypotheticaly, without conceding, that your statement is accurate, it is unquestionable that their actions take very very different forms. Democrats tend to be liberal. Republicans tend to be conservative.

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

HordeKing1

09-04-2001, 05:10 AM

ADOLESCENT MASTURBATOR - As for the locked thread, I did so b/c of several requests I received to ban you for your racism.

I felt your rascist views to be the product of ignorance and upbringing and compromised by just locking the thread.

Peace.

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Captain Rooster

09-04-2001, 05:30 AM

OK, I'm in on this one.

NO we should not legalize prostitution.

POT YES - Prostitution NO

I am conservative and i believe that we need to stop the moral backsliding in this country. We are the beacon to the rest of the world. Why should we compromise our values AGAIN. we were brought through the gutter with Clinton and we need to focus our efforts and media attention on causes that do not deal with the sleazy side of society.

Why can't men just go to the gym, workout, mix in a salad instead of a Big Mac, take a shower, brush his teeth and go out and meet a woman and actually try to establish a meaningful relationship in his life. Or a woman - Vice Versa.

<IMG SRC=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/warface.jpg>

TomPoo

09-04-2001, 06:17 AM

charging $500-$1000 an hour... now thats a crime!!!

REEKING of AWESOMENESS
----TomPoo

<img border="0" src="http://www.viewaskew.com/clerks/images/pics/danteran.gif" width="200" height="100">

"There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?"

HordeKing1

09-04-2001, 01:05 PM

LTROOSTER - I have a few questions.

1. Why do you think prostitution is immoral?

2. Even if you do believe prostituiton to be immoral under your religious, cultural, or social schema, can you demonstrate conclusively that prostitution is universally immoral?

3. You refer to prostitution as moral "backsliding." Backsliding means going backwards. Prostitution has been around since there were people. How then can you consider it "backsliding?"

4. How is prositution comprimising "our values." It may comprimise your values, but it's not accurate to include everyone in the same group.

5. All jokes about Clinton aside, the act of getting a blowjob isn't immoral, his lying to the public, promising her jobs, and cheating on his wife were.

6. Why do you refer to sex as "sleazy?" Sex does not equal immorality. Sex is normal, healthy and fun. Any form of its expression b/w two or more consenting adults is not immoral.

I hope you reply to this. I respect your opinions and would like to understand your mindset.

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

Captain Rooster

09-04-2001, 03:56 PM

HORDE KING - I have tried to reply to this 3 times and I am pulling out my hair!!

I ramble so long that I get logged off and I lose my post each time.

quick....

1. SEX is NOT Dirty if it is between two consenting adults that are mutually respecting other the other party
2. CLINTON was immoral by any standard religious, social, basic human standards. Liar!
3. Backslide - yes we would be moving BACK to a time where women were marginalized, treated as objects, abused, manipulated, and generally taken advantage of.
That's all - I had a book on this post before and i lost it so I lost my steam...

I will ask you a question Horde King - where is the universal truth that Prostittion IS MORAL - what is moral to you?

<IMG SRC=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/warface.jpg>

This message was edited by LTRooster on 9-4-01 @ 8:06 PM

Captain Rooster

09-04-2001, 03:56 PM

i double posted that's immoral!!

<IMG SRC=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/warface.jpg>

This message was edited by LTRooster on 9-4-01 @ 8:07 PM

Pootertoot

09-04-2001, 05:37 PM

I think prostitution involves too consenting individuals. You don't pay someone you rape, unless you count tax refunds (look at me being topical.)

As for respecting another individual, there's a lot of non-prostitution sex going on between individuals that don't respect each other.

But here's my problem again: Please stop making decisions about how other people spend their lives. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman or man selling their body. Sex may be a sacred thing to you, but it's not for everyone, nor should it be forced upon them.

Morality as you define it is not universal.

In layman's terms, since I'm too lazy to type up something intelligent at the moment, my definition of morality is this: acting in such ways that benefit and do not harm members of the community of life.

Things like murder are immoral universally, not just limited to the human community but found in nature as a whole.

Then there's personal morality. Cheating on one's wife, prostitution, these are all moral issues that are decided by the individual. They are things unique to civilization, have no definite ill-effects (catching a fatal STD from prostition is not a downside to prostitution, it's a downside to prostitution being unregulated. Nor is cheating on one's wife. Hurting someone's feelings is not even remotely in the same league as killing someone.) so it's really a personal choice. And that's it, PERSONAL. It's disturbing that the government controls a harmless aspect of sex.

I'm drained on this subject as I'm trying to listen to Ron and Fez while typing this. Hopefully Hordeking will pick up where I fell through.

You just have to seperate what's inherent about morality and what's a choice you have to make. The stuff you make a choice about, that's where you stop forcing your choice on others.

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Captain Rooster

09-05-2001, 05:31 AM

Horde King - Pootertoot

Thank God for IM - Pooter and I went on and on back and forth on this issue...I understand Pooter's point on universal truth, BUT I believe that the women involved are (and would be even if it was legalized) manipulated and treated as an object of lust - to me that is universally true to be wrong. We are all precious and we should not condone having women treated as such in a society that works to empower all people.

Why can't these guys just go and meet a woman by talking to her, and treating her with respect? There are too many horny men walking around out there that are socially inept!

<IMG SRC=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/warface.jpg>

IkeaBoy

09-05-2001, 06:43 AM

I believe that the women involved are (and would be even if it was legalized) manipulated and treated as an object of lust Women will always be treated as lust. Why? WE LUST AFTER THEM! It's just whether legal or illegal men will want to sleep with women, men will look at a woman's breasts, ass, face before getting to know her. That's how it is and that's how it always will be. It's the T&A that give women the power (except for those with no Ts and big As and those women are called NOW) and it's the T&A cause the lusting which causes the power. There aer plenty of guys who DO treat women with respect and plenty of guys who would go to a prostitute and plenty of guys who'd do both. Often it's not a matter of awkwardness, it's occasionally a matter of weird fetishes or just wanting sex without effort. Yes some women might be manipulated but not all. Some women might make good money doing this and have no problem or qualms with being a sexpot.

Rooster are you pro or against strip clubs?

"Nothing can kill The Grimace"

Captain Rooster

09-05-2001, 07:01 AM

IkeaBoy

Women will always be treated as lust. Why? WE LUST AFTER THEM! It's just whether legal or illegal men will want to sleep with women, men will look at a woman's breasts, ass, face before getting to know her. That's how it is and that's how it always will be

ok so? Does that mean that men shouldn't use restraint?

strip clubs are a whole different topic...and I'm spent!

<IMG SRC=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/warface.jpg>

IkeaBoy

09-05-2001, 07:18 AM

Men DO use restraint! And honestly, what do you think about Strip Clubs Rooster

"Nothing can kill The Grimace"

Captain Rooster

09-05-2001, 07:56 AM

Listen - I am not a saint, far from it. i just believe that we as a society are too concerned with tolerating anything! Hey you wanna walk around with you dick hanging out - go right ahead - that's your RIGHT - that's the way America is going! You wanna preach that killing cops is noble - Go right to the F ahead - this is America! You wanna burn my Flag - go right the F' ahead! Great now my kid has to look at your ball bag, listen to people teach my kid to have ZERO respect for any authority, and hate the country, Mr. I have the right to do whatever the F I want.

I think that freedom is great, but we have responsibilty to take care of people - and many times there are people who are misguided and are looking for purpose and happiness in the wrong areas of life. OK - now prostitution is legal , THAT tells the youth of today that it is an ACCEPTED practice! Why should I worry about my 18 year old son going to a pro to get his rocks off. Why should I not want and expect him to go out and meet a woman and begin a "normal" relationship. Drugs, prostitution, etc. these practices are hindering peoples growth. Why should we condone those acts - they are not helping this society - they are crippling the youth and the adults that are involved in them. Prostitution should stay illegal - we should NOT accept that practice and spend time supporting acts that are hurtful to humanity!

I wish some of the WOMEN that are members would reply to this thread honestly and tell us their thoughts - they are the ones that are hurt when we revert to the primitive brain filled with lust without substance!! They are the ones that are used, manipulated, abused, and made into living sex objects. WAKE UP!

OK - the strip club thing - That is a funny situation and very different.
The women that are involved in that are detached from the men in many ways, they have the flexibilty to come close to the men or stay away. i believe that many women dance to feel the desire of the men without actually having to have sex with them. I believe that because there is no REAL physical intimate contact that there is no real harm to the woman directly in that situation. BUT I do believe that the man is teased into a frenzy! Men get all jacked up and are left with an excited sex drive many times without an outlet - This can be harmful to the guy - and ULTIMATELY harmful to women.

TED BUNDY (serial killer and rapist) openly stated that PORNOGRAPHY was a root cause of his serial killings - women became objects to him. They were not HUMANS with real feeling, emotion, lives, families. They were objects to be used and destroyed. That is what happens when society fails. We will have more people fall through the cracks and be brought up with twisted socialization. WE WILL BE BREEDING MONSTERS!!!!!

<IMG SRC=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/warface.jpg>

TomPoo

09-05-2001, 08:27 AM

Hey you wanna walk around with you dick hanging out - go right ahead - that's your RIGHT -

Now your TALKING!!!!!!

What!?!?! I thought we were all having fun???

REEKING of AWESOMENESS
----TomPoo

<img border="0" src="http://www.viewaskew.com/clerks/images/pics/danteran.gif" width="200" height="100">

"There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?"

Captain Rooster

09-05-2001, 08:30 AM

LOL! ok - well if you are a part of the daytime posters club - you can walk around with your dick hanging out - just not around any playgrounds though - ok - are we in agreement?

<IMG SRC=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/warface.jpg>

reeshy

09-05-2001, 08:39 AM

Sounds like a fight is a-brewin'!!!!

<img src=http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/~stones/stones/kr/stalone.jpg>

IkeaBoy

09-05-2001, 01:33 PM

I just believe that we as a society are too concerned with tolerating anything! We are becoming too concerned with not tolerating anything. A lot of people are splitting into factions to cause censoring- NOW, GAS (Guidos against Sopranos), NAACP, the Chinese guy upset over Sarah Silverman- and people are bowing to political correctness faster than bowing to a fucking King. They are doing it under the guise of protection. And that is the protection of people's feelings rather than freedom of speech. As for the Strip Club comment about women wanting desire without sex, what about women wanting desire WITH sex, the chicks who feel that sex is an enjoyable feeling so they figure why not make a few bucks on the side.

"Nothing can kill The Grimace"

Pootertoot

09-06-2001, 01:15 AM

What exactly are you tolerating about prostitution? Does it affect you in any way? Does it hurt anyone? And I'm talking in general, don't tell me about the teenage girls who run away and do it because they're misguided or the STDs, because those are BOTH the results of it being illegal and, thus, unregulated.

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Gvac

09-06-2001, 02:54 AM

Without getting into a moral debate with all of you, I just want to say that one sure way to screw up anything is to put the Federal Government in charge of it.

<img src="http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/GVAC2.jpg">

Back to Rooster's for a while

TomPoo

09-06-2001, 05:08 AM

Man I hate getting serious, but I have a question for Pootertoot

ok poot, you wrote

But here's my problem again: Please stop making decisions about how other people spend their lives

and
Morality as you define it is not universal.

and
Does it affect you in any way? Does it hurt anyone?

lets put the "PROSTITUION" issue aside. Cause I have seen you and Horde King use as a common defense that people have the right to make there own PERSONAL decisions in there PERSONAL lives

I totally understand that, and believe me, if somoeone came to me and said I couldn't do something because it doesn't fit in some elses moral guidelines, I would be pretty pissed.

However, what I think you seem to miss in Roosters side (and in others who agree in his views) is a deep down concern for anothers well being.

Take the "prostituion" issue for an example. It seems to me (and if I am wrong please correct me Rooster) that Rooster see people hurting themselves (both the prostitute and the person paying for the service) in some way shape or form.

While you POOTER are able to put a line in the sand and say "IT IS THERE DECISION" Rooster is saying "That this decision is hurting them and someone should stop them"

Now, If I was to substitute "prostitution" with "Suicide" would you allow someone to kill themselves cause it is there personal decision???

Now I am not comparing the Prostitution and Suicide... I am comparing the different point where someone says "HEY I HAVE TO GET INVOLVED!!!"

Your line in the sand of involvement is simply different from Roosters, different from mine, and many others.

Damn it... I lost track of where I was going with this.

I guess what I am trying to say is don't look at Rooster's views (and others like his) as him trying to push his morals on you, but as a concern that you or someone else is hurting yourself and should consider a change.

REEKING of AWESOMENESS
----TomPoo

<img border="0" src="http://www.viewaskew.com/clerks/images/pics/danteran.gif" width="200" height="100">

"There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?"

adolescentmasturbator

09-06-2001, 01:54 PM

Liberal, Conservative they say that but when push comes to shove change rarely happens.

As for the Israel thread if you had a problem voice it with me. I don't understand how something is racist when most of my stuff comes from a Jewish person. Hell I'm more left than HK. I think we automatically equate Israel with Jews. I have nothing aganist the Israeli people but the Israeli government(fuck I hate most governments anyway). Whatever blah blah blah let this topic die blah blah blah.

As for prositution I think LTRooster is way off. If it was legal disease would decrease, pimps would be cut out of the equation so the girls would be able to get most of the money, and it would be a step closer to stopping government control on your fucking self. There are so many more immoral things that hurt a lot more people that people don't give a shit about. There's a lot more that you could do for the children than outlawing prostitution. There are way too many to list.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

Pootertoot

09-06-2001, 02:25 PM

Mr. Poo, I've talked to Mr. Rooster outside this thread, in IM, and while we haven't come to a mutual agreement on the issues, we have gotten into it more deeply than what we here.

Prositution and Suicide are two completely different issues. The attitude that you and Rooster are taking to this is that there something inherently wrong with prostitution. There isn't. You're assuming these girls need to be helped. It's not like the movies, where every prostitute except the occasional rarity is forced into the life, hates what she does and herself for doing it, and every time they have sex with a man it's like rape they're forced to accept.

Prostitution is like any other job where you take it because the money's easy. 99% of us here are working jobs that are unfulfilling, where our talents are wasted, where we're unappreciated, where, for the most part, we're treated like fucking objects, like a faceless soldier, performing a necessary task, sure, but easily replaceable. To say that one could show prostitutes that there's something out there that's better for them, that they don't have to sell their body for money...THAT IS FUCKING TRUE FOR ALL OF US. The fact that she's selling her body for sex is no different than you selling your mind, time, and energy for something you don't particularly enjoy and quite possibly loathe.

The reason you treat prostitution differently than that is because you, in some way, attatch a stigma to sex. You may not have a belief as extreme as only married people should have sex, but you probably have the idea that you should only have sex with someone you love. This is where personal morality comes in. That is not a universal truth by any means, how someone defines love is as malleable a concept as how someone defines sex. What sex is for you is what sex is FOR YOU. Sex between two consenting individuals where love is not even an issue, where it's a service exchanged for money, is no less inherently noble than staying a virgin until marriage. It's a personal preference, a decision someone made along the way about how they feel sex is FOR THEM. I'm sure a lot of us think staying a virgin is a beautiful thing, myself included, I treat sex as something that *I* only want to share with someone I love, but if we REALLY thought that staying a virgin was the best course of action, then we'd all be fucking virgins. You think it's a good thing, but not YOUR thing.

You should, in turn, treat prostitution the same way. It's not YOUR thing, but that doesn't make it a bad thing. Just because the majority of people won't go to a prostitute in their lifetime doesn't mean it's the wrong choice to make. Most people won't have a threesome, most people won't be swingers, most people won't be involved in an orgy. Is there anything inherently wrong with any of these sexual choices? Or are they just that, choices, choices for other people to make but not you? Why is prostitution any different? It's not.

Rooster has said that the problem is that women are being treated as objects when it comes to prostitution. I'll respond to this in two ways:

1) And? If the woman is consenting, then there's nothing wrong with her being treated as an object. You treat women as objects every time you masturbate. You think of the things that will get you the quickest orgasm, the most excited, the tits, the ass, the pussy, fucking her, whatever gets your rocks off. But you're not thinking about her fucking degree in neurosurgery. When you check out a girl walking down a street, you're staring at her chest, not thinking "Oh god, how I'd like to discuss Proust with a girl with brains like that!". And a lot of you have sportfucked before, when it was just about lust.

But it doesn't end with objectification through sex. You do it intellectually all the time. You treat the McDonald's guy AS the McDonald's guy, ESPECIALLY if they fuck up your order. You don't think they might be putting themselves through college or something similarly heartwrenching, they're there to do a service for you, and because they work at McDo

TomPoo

09-07-2001, 06:06 AM

Well, I spent a shitload of time and effort on it, you better fucking read this ;P

well now I am not reading this just out of spite (Just kidding Poot!)

First of all I do appreciate the response and obviously the amount of time you put into it.

Prostitution is like any other job where you take it because the money's easy. 99% of us here are working jobs that are unfulfilling, where our talents are wasted, where we're unappreciated, where, for the most part, we're treated like fucking objects, like a faceless soldier, performing a necessary task, sure, but easily replaceable. To say that one could show prostitutes that there's something out there that's better for them, that they don't have to sell their body for money...THAT IS FUCKING TRUE FOR ALL OF US. The fact that she's selling her body for sex is no different than you selling your mind, time, and energy for something you don't particularly enjoy and quite possibly loathe.

When you choose the career, (or field, industry, etc) you will be part of for the majority of your adult life, I truly hope it is NOT unfulfilling. No one should have to live there lives working a meaningless, unfullfilling job.

I may bitch about my job, but at the end of most days, I feel as if I have accomplished something, I am growing, I am getting better, and I am doing something I want to do, and I am fullfilled in the work I do.

Everyone SHOULD at least try to base whatever it is they do on something they truly love, or at least have interest in.

I can not believe that there are women out there who have found fullfillment in a career of prostituion. I do not believe a prostitute finds fullfillment in her body of work.

Now I had my bitch jobs (caddy, pizza delivery, etc) and believe me I have felt on more than one occasion like a used whore on the golf coarse when caddying for f'n rich arrogant bastards. And you can definately make a very good argument that I was "Selling" my self out there.

Fuck it, I admit it, I get paid around $100-$120 for 2 bags and 2 guys on a cart for a 4 hour round... and I would go through the worst abuse ever "Where is My Fucking ball!!!" "Don't Fucking Stand there when I hit!!!" "GO get the Fucking Pin!!!"

But I did it all for money

I didn't receive an once of respect when I was a caddy...

... and prostitutes don't receive any respect either... and anytime you do something that isn't appreciated or even worse, looked down on, then you feel like a whore.

Also, there was no pride in the work I did on the golf coarse. I was a GREAT CADDY, and I got the best loops on weekends, and I always worked my ass off, treated the members cordially, but I didn't take pride in that...

and I don't believe prostitutes take a real pride in there work either. How can they??? It is to my understanding that a girl must detach herself emotionally when "servicing". How can one take pride in there work when they detach themselves from it??? I am sure there are prostitutes that work hard, treat there clients very good, and are considered great Prostitues, but I don't think they take a true pride in there work.

Poot, you think I am against prostituion cause of the "sex" part of it. That isn't true. Like I said, I don't believe in pushing ones moral guidelines on another.

However, I do see women hurting themselves in this job. I see women choosing a means for money that in the long run will leave them unsatisfied with there life. NOT BECAUSE OF THE SEX, but because in that line of work there is a lack of respect from others a lack of appreciation, and a lack of pride in there work.

If I am wrong about this, if you can show me a fair proportion of prostitues that don't feel this way, that do take pride in there work and have a sense of fullfillment at the end of the day, I will admit I am wrong, and re-evaluate my opinion (cause that is all this really is)

Do I think ending prostituion is the answer???? I don't know. Do I think legalizing prostition is the answer???? I don't know. I am not edu

Pootertoot

09-07-2001, 02:13 PM

Mr. Poo, I understand your points, and you seem to have really understood my points, but here is the final step you have to make:

Just because you don't think a job is fulfilling, doesn't mean it should be illegal.

If you give me an example of why prostitution SHOULD be illegal, then I'll take it on its merits and criticize it just like I expect (and hope) you would do to my own points.

But if your argument is that you don't "believe" (which is very important in and of itself) that prostitutes don't enjoy/find fulfillment/whatever in their work, that's an argument against why people shouldn't be a prostitute, not why prostitution should be illegal.

It's not your thing, gotcha. Don't do it. But don't tell someone else they can't.

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adolescentmasturbator

09-07-2001, 03:54 PM

TomPoo I get where you are coming from but you cannot make legislation based on respect.

Let me give you an example I don't have a lot of respect for WNEW management but that doesn't mean they should be outlawed. OK bad example:).

I will get a sig pic...eventually

HordeKing1

09-07-2001, 11:44 PM

LTROOSTER - You have a lot of points I'd like to address:

The question you should be asking is not why we should be legalizing prostitution but rather, why should it be illegal. The distinction is not merely one of semantics; rather it reflects a fundamental difference in philosophy. The former approach holds that behaviors are wrong (and in the social context must be outlawed) until proven right, the other that behaviors are appropriate unless proven improper.

1. You've discussed the concept of "universal truths" already. I'll just add, that even if it can be argued that there is a single objective reality, there is no way to quantify it as all the means of observation are subjective. To put it another way, or as my wife would say, "into English," what is right for you, isn't right for someone else. If you don't want to see a prostitute, don't. But don't tell anyone else that they shouldn't or can't.

2. You wrote, "(as prostitutes) women would be treated as an object of lust." I have to admit that this made my jaw drop. Can you honestly say that women (and to a lesser extent men) are not sexually objectified? If you think not, just recall your times at the strip club. How then would prostitution create objectification? Frankly, I don't see it worsening objectification in any way. The worst source of objectification of women, and reducing a woman's self confidence is women's magazines. Take a look at some of them next time you're at a newsstand. They all have cover stories featuring beautiful young models. Cover stories are typically, "50 ways to make your man hot for you." Or, "Things you can do to make him want you." Prostitution isn't the problem.

3. Regarding prostitution you wrote further, "Does that mean that men shouldn't use restraint?" To this I ask, restraint from what? We're not talking rape or sexual abuse, or incest, which in my opinion should be a capital offense. We're talking a consensual sexual encounter that happens to involve the exchange of money. Should restraint be practiced so as to not engage in sex at all? Should we all wait to have sex until we are married? America is a very Puritanical culture especially when it comes to sex. Most cultures regard sex as a normal, pleasant, experience. But we make it "dirty." When something becomes "dirty" it becomes wrong. Well, there is nothing dirty about sex in any of its wonderful permutations as long as consent is involved. Dating sex, one night stand sex, married sex, casual sex, or pay for sex. They are all OK.

If you are comfortable with the idea of sex, why do you have a moral problem with sex for money? A compelling argument can be made that since all sex involves some quid pro quo, all sex is a type of prostitution. The difference is that "prostitutes" acknowledge the quid pro quo nature of the relationship up front and without false pretense.

4. You wrote that, ".We as a society are too concerned with tolerating (things)." I'm puzzled as to the use of the word tolerate. What about sex or prostitution need be tolerated? Prostitution does not involve cop killing, to use your example. We are talking about having sex, a normal bodily function. Yet you equate tolerance of sex with tolerance of flag burning. There simply is no comparison.

5. You worry that legalizing prostitution would "tell the youth of today that it is an ACCEPTED practice!" So what? Smoking will kill you. Drinking is likely to seriously hurt you. (1/2 of all hospital beds are filled w/patients there b/c of alcohol or its sequela. This includes drunk driving). Prostitution, (with appropriate testing, as I suggested earlier, would not be). Which would you rather your kid do? As you are no doubt aware, just because something is legal it doesn't meant that you have to do it. If prostitution were something you feel would warp your kid's morals than it's your option to convey your values to your kid. But of course, they are independent beings, not merely narcissistic expressions of one's self and they will end u

HordeKing1

09-07-2001, 11:45 PM

TOMPOO - I'm sure LTROOSTER'S intentions are noble in that he perceives prostitution as having a negative impact and wants it stopped. I'm not questioning his intentions.

Firstly, I question if ROOSTER recognizes the basis for his perception of prostitution as negative. Secondly I question if he recognizes that although he may perceive prostitution as negative, others might perceive it as being very positive. Third, I question on what basis he believes he has the right to value his views over someone else's? Finally, I question whether he has the right to force his idea onto people with different ideas.

One of my goal as a therapist is to make people realize and achieve their many potentials, sometimes in the face of significant obstacles. There are many ways to accomplish this and many different approaches used to further this goal. There is no universal approach that works with everyone because everyone comes in with a different worldview, a different set of problems, and a different sociocultural environment.

Every person in the world has some stereotypes and biases. As therapists (and hopefully as people) we try to recognize ours, and avoid letting them influence our ability to relate to, communicate with and orient ourselves to our clients.

If I took the approach that what I believe to be right is right for all my clients, I couldn't help any of them. My personal views on abortion for example, are irrelevant when the issue arises. We must deal with everything in the unique framework of the individual and her environment. What is right for person "A" might be entirely wrong for person "B".

Perhaps the very worst thing I can do is to apply my opinions and worldviews onto my client's situation. Yet that is entirely what ROOSTER is advocating. Despite recognizing that others have different perspectives, he wants to dictate to them what they should or shouldn't do in the name of his idea of their "well being." Saving the heathens (for their own good of course) has been responsible for millions of deaths. It is another example of someone knowing what is good for another and seeking to enforce it (ironically in this example by killing them.)

TOM, your substitution of the word prostitution with suicide was discussed very intelligently by POOTERTOOT, as usual, in an earlier post. Suicide is anathema to me, as once a person is dead; all possibility of future happiness and achievement is forever gone. Yet, I recognize my bias towards preventing suicide, and the reason behind it, and can say that suicide is a personal choice that in some instances is entirely appropriate. A person in terrible agony with no chance of recovery comes immediately to mind. Would I personally want him to kill himself? No, I'm biased against it. Do I understand why he would want too? Of course! Do I want him to have the choice? Of course! I'll go one step further. In this scenario, if he asked me to help him, I gladly would.

Everything is situationally dependent and unique to the individual and his environment. What is right for me is not necessarily right for someone else. The reverse holds true as well. One cannot make the mistake of putting further strangleholds on freedom in the name of acting in others interests. Frequently you don't know what those interests are, or what is best for them.

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

HordeKing1

09-07-2001, 11:46 PM

TOMPOO - You argue that prostitution is bad, not because of the sex, but because it can lead women to feel unsatisfied with their life, "because in that line of work there is a lack of respect from others a lack of appreciation, and a lack of pride in there work."

Welcome to the working week!

Many, many people feel this way about their job. It is not unique to prostitution; many schoolteachers, doctors, lawyers, garbagemen, cubicle workers, etc feel exactly the same.

Most people aren't "fulfilled" by their work. Quite a few friends of mine are professionals; MD's PhD's, JD's, and CPA's to name a few. Many friends are different types of professionals; carpenter, electrician, plumbing supply, homemaker, etc. One thing that unites this disparate group is the shared feelings that work sucks. That's why people have families, and hobbies and outside interests - to gain fullfillment from them. That's why people look so forward to even a day off. (Only my shrink, psychologist and social worker friends love their work - and with good cause!)

TOMPOO - Bravo for acknowledging that you don't have all the answers. That's the most intelligent thing anyone has said in this entire thread so far. We have opinions, beliefs, ideas, and biases. We try to educate ourselves and learn to the best of our ability. The ultimate realization is that no one has all the answers. We just have to do our best. Bravo for participating in the discussion and looking for insight. That, my friend, is the true path to enlightenment.

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

HordeKing1

09-07-2001, 11:49 PM

GVAC - Your wrote "I just want to say that one sure way to screw up anything is to put the Federal Government in charge of it."

Yeah, the government really screwed up with the Rural Electrification Program, the Postal Service, and the Interstate Freeways.

Oh yeah they also screwed up big time with the Youth Summer Job Programs, the FAA, The National Park Systems and Guaranteed Student Loans.

And how could I forget how the feds so badly screwed up the FDIC, the GI Bill and Public Libraries. ;)

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

adolescentmasturbator

09-08-2001, 10:07 PM

Rooster, you cannot hold one man(Ted Bundy) accountable for the rest of us. Ted bundy was a registered republican. Do I hold that aganist other Republicans or you because you are also Conservative? No. Ted Bundy was a madman so it wouldn't be justifiable.

Also Prostitutes are prime targets for serial killers because they are easy prey. Make it legal and then Prostitutes don't have to worry so much.

You mention if it was my daughter. Of course I wouldn't want my daughter to be a prostitute. But I wouldn't want my daughter to have sex without knowing a guy's name at a party but that doesn't mean it should be illegal.

I also agree with the 6,000 word essay HK just wrote.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

HordeKing1

09-08-2001, 11:08 PM

ADOLESCENTMASTURBATOR - 6000 words! You should have seen it before I edited!

Good point regarding violence towards prostitutes being the result of their being "easy prey."

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

Gvac

09-09-2001, 04:45 AM

Yeah, the government really screwed up with the Rural Electrification Program, the Postal Service, and the Interstate Freeways.

Oh yeah they also screwed up big time with the Youth Summer Job Programs, the FAA, The National Park Systems and Guaranteed Student Loans.

And how could I forget how the feds so badly screwed up the FDIC, the GI Bill and Public Libraries

Glad to hear you agree, HordeKing!

<img src="http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/GVAC3.jpg">

"Cheers!" to LtRooster for this one!

HordeKing1

09-09-2001, 11:49 AM

LOL

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

adolescentmasturbator

09-09-2001, 04:08 PM

If the feds were in charge of it they would make a provision that politicians would get a 15% discount.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

HordeKing1

09-09-2001, 07:44 PM

Ummmm, you're not getting it.

Those were programs run solely by the Federal Government and were among the most successful programs ever.

Does the government always know what it's doing? Of course not. But they have had many spectacular sucesses

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

TomPoo

09-10-2001, 11:11 AM

Wow, this is quite a bit to handle!!! I think this discussion has just about run its coarse, I just want to address a couple points.

AM, Poot, and Horde, you have all justified why there should not be a legislation on why to make it illegal, and I have to say, I have to mostly agree.

However, I still believe women (or men) that have chosen to be a prostitute as a means to make money need help in getting out of that line of work. I say this because of my arguement that there is nothing fullfilling, or satisfying about there work.

Horde King you wrote (and poot said something along these lines as well):
TOMPOO - You argue that prostitution is bad, not because of the sex, but because it can lead women to feel unsatisfied with their life, "because in that line of work there is a lack of respect from others a lack of appreciation, and a lack of pride in there work."

Welcome to the working week!

Many, many people feel this way about their job. It is not unique to prostitution; many schoolteachers, doctors, lawyers, garbagemen, cubicle workers, etc feel exactly the same.

Most people aren't "fulfilled" by their work. Quite a few friends of mine are professionals; MD's PhD's, JD's, and CPA's to name a few. Many friends are different types of professionals; carpenter, electrician, plumbing supply, homemaker, etc. One thing that unites this disparate group is the shared feelings that work sucks. That's why people have families, and hobbies and outside interests - to gain fullfillment from them. That's why people look so forward to even a day off. (Only my shrink, psychologist and social worker friends love their work - and with good cause!)

While, it is true that people in the professions you listed above may have found there work unfullfilling, there are MANY in those fields that find the same work rewarding.

HK, you chose to be lawyer then decided to leave that profession to become a therapist, correct??? I will assume you know many lawyers though that love the work they do, just for you path was different.

In PROSTITUTION, I am fairly certain NO ONE finds true satisfaction in there work. It is not a job or a career where at the end of the day they feel a sense of accomplishment or happiness.
(Again, I am not sure of this, if I am wrong, please show me the evidence and I will re-evaluate this point)

While I agree with you that legalizing is not the right coarse of action, I do stand on the fact that perhaps these women (or men) may need to be shown some sort of alternative to a way of life because ultimately this path will leave there lives empty.

Now you may point out that it is there life, there decisions, and if this is the choice they make, let them.

I agree with you that it is there choice, but I beleive people in general allow others to make decisions that hurt them without helping, maybe it is the years of Catholic school talking here, but we should look out for others and help when we can, and sometimes when it isn't our place too.

Everything is situationally dependent and unique to the individual and his environment. What is right for me is not necessarily right for someone else. The reverse holds true as well. One cannot make the mistake of putting further strangleholds on freedom in the name of acting in others interests. Frequently you don't know what those interests are, or what is best for them.

HK, I could agree with you more!

The biggest problem I have with the law is that it makes things balck and white, when is reality everything is different shades of grey.

----------

Thanks for all the feedback guys, I hope we have all learned a couple things from this discussion, I would hate to think that we spent all this time reading and writing to end up the same place where we started.

REEKING of AWESOMENESS
----TomPoo

<img border="0" src="http://www.viewaskew.com/clerks/images/pics/danteran.gif" width="200" height="100">

"There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?"