Iraqi govt. papers: Saddam bribed Chirac

[NewYorkDragons80]

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Jan. 28 (UPI) -- Documents from Saddam Hussein's oil ministry reveal he used oil to bribe top French officials into opposing the imminent U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

The oil ministry papers, described by the independent Baghdad newspaper al-Mada, are apparently authentic and will become the basis of an official investigation by the new Iraqi Governing Council, the Independent reported Wednesday.

"I think the list is true," Naseer Chaderji, a governing council member, said. "I will demand an investigation. These people must be prosecuted."

Such evidence would undermine the French position before the war when President Jacques Chirac sought to couch his opposition to the invasion on a moral high ground.

A senior Bush administration official said Washington was aware of the reports but refused further comment.

French diplomats have dismissed any suggestion their foreign policy was influenced by payments from Saddam, but some European diplomats have long suspected France's steadfast opposition to the war was less moral than monetary.

"Oil runs thicker than blood," is how one former ambassador put his suspicions about the French motives for opposing action against Saddam.

Al-Mada's list cites a total of 46 individuals, companies and organizations inside and outside Iraq as receiving Saddam's oil bribes, including officials in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, the United Arab Emirates, Turkey, Sudan, China, Austria and France, as well as the Russian Orthodox Church, the Russian Communist Party, India's Congress Party and the Palestine Liberation Organization.
UPI Article (http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040128-094014-7323r.htm)

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[Heavy]

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[Ndugu]

IMPOSSIBLE, only every negative; speculative article about George W. Bush can be true

My Mom Says I'm Cool

This message was edited by Ndugu on 1-28-04 @ 9:27 PM

[HBox]

This isn't all that surprising. The three biggest countries that opposed the invasion all had lots of oil contracts with Iraq.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[furie]

if we can't trust the french, then who can we trust? my universe is falling apart.

at least we can still trust russia.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/zencow.gif">

[Snoogans]

10 bucks bush uses this toi get reelected and invade france, and i would vote for him

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mikeyboy/5a173d18.jpg
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[monsterone]

if we can't trust the french, then who can we trust?



there's still quebec, my friend.

<center><img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01">


MO¥+ErO¥E.
moe & steels, you
are greatly missed... you too
horde king</center>

[HBox]

There's also French Guiana.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[monsterone]

and haiti. but black people speaking french is so wierd.

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MO¥+ErO¥E.
moe & steels, you
are greatly missed... you too
horde king</center>

[Se7en]

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Jan. 28 (UPI) -- Documents from Saddam Hussein's oil ministry reveal he used oil to bribe top French officials into opposing the imminent U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.


NO.

This CANNOT BE.

You've entirely shaken my world view with this. France? But.....but they had the MORAL HIGHGROUND, don't you know.....

You've stunned & shocked me. *sways* I think I need to lay down now.

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[TheMojoPin]

IMPOSSIBLE, only every negative; speculative article about George W. Bush can be true

Look at him talk like there's some huge pro-French contingent here.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[DeltaPin]

Does this mean we have to go back to eating Freedom Fries?

<img src=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ktk7439/files/potch.JPG>

[Yerdaddy]

1. The only two papers I see reporting this are openly conservative/pro-war papers and services that have been reporting all the bogus al-Qaeda links and WMD finds since the occupation started. (It's in the "Independent" and "Washington Times" citing United Press International.)

2. The claim of bribery is coming from Council member Naseer al-Chaderchi, and not from US military or intelligence officials. The previous bogus stories all came through Iraqi Governing Council members, which includes some of the same people, like Chalabi, who were feeding us the bogus WMD/al-Qaeda information before the war.

3. Over 70% of the French public was opposed to the war. Why would that government need bribes NOT to go against their own public? I'm as critical of France's foreign policy as anyone else's, but this doesn't make any sense.

So I'll wait for credible sources to prove or disprove this. What pisses me off is that all the previous claims that have proven to be blatant lies by members of the governing body that WE APPOINTED have no accountability when it comes to shit like this. Did anyone get booted off the council for passing off bogus documents before? When virtually everyone in the international relations community in Washington has aknowledged that the Iraqi National Congress passed us boatloads of bogus information before the war, why is the head of that organization still on the Governing Council? No. In fact he's still the most visible member of the the council, attending every trip to Washington and the UN. And he's poisoning the credibility of the Council like a big fucking turd in a punchbowl.

I understand that these media organizations have an agenda and that's how they operate. But these Iraqis that we've elevated to leadership aren't worth shit if they aren't going to act responsible, or be held accountable by each other or Bremmer himself. But I'm betting that a week from now, the credible press reports on this being disproved by American officials, but the story will go on among the ideological press and their readers, further dividing people on political faith rather than logic. Nobody will be punished for the false claims, and the credibility of the Iraqi council and the US authority will drop that much more in the eyes of the Iraqis and the world.

I could be wrong, but based on where this story is coming from, where it's not coming from, and how it's worded, I'd bet money it's bogus.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
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[furie]

half of africa speaks french. remnants of the french empire.
Wow. I can't even type french empire without smirking.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/zencow.gif">

[HBox]

I can't even type french empire without smirking.

http://www.fresno.k12.ca.us/schools/s090/lloyd/napoleon.jpg

"Hey, I INVENTED flushing your empire down the toilet in a foolish Russian campaign in the dead of winter. HITLER RIPPED ME OFF!"

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[Ndugu]

yerdaddy, i saw this story on one of the cable news channels

My Mom Says I'm Cool

[TheMojoPin]

I'd bet which one it was, but it would be like stealing.

Besides, TV news (ALL of 'em) is the lowest rung on the journalism ladder. Well, no, that's the internet. But the next one up isn't much better.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-29-04 @ 12:59 AM

[Se7en]

Wait for it.....wait for it.....yes, he's there, I see him coming over the hill.....yes!

Here comes Yerdaddy to ruin our fun!

Like CLOCKWORK.

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[TheMojoPin]

Does he not make good points?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Ndugu]

quick question mojo, who is at the top of ths wonderful magical journalistic ladder of hope

My Mom Says I'm Cool

[blakjeezis]

who is at the top of ths wonderful magical journalistic ladder of hope


MOI!!!!

Paul is dead. Paul is dead. Paul is dead.

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If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
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[Hoojibs]

Does this mean we have to go back to eating Freedom Fries?


Yeah along with Freedom Kissing and Freedom Bread Pizza.

<img src="http://hometown.aol.com/erzengel1/images/batman_sigpic.jpg">

[TheMojoPin]

quick question mojo, who is at the top of ths wonderful magical journalistic ladder of hope

Printed journalism. Simply cannot be beat for accuracy and in-depth analysis. TV news is like a puppet show compared to it.

Most will probably say newspapers, but I'd throw my support behind the newsmagazines.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

Here comes Yerdaddy to ruin our fun!
touche

quick question mojo, who is at the top of ths wonderful magical journalistic ladder of hope
Not the ones that jump on every bogus story that serves their political agenda.

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[A.J.]

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[TheMojoPin]

Damn you for forcing me to do this. It's such an awful cliche at this point.

http://www.nyu.edu/globalbeat/jpg/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Ndugu]

how would u classify this story

reuters (http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=4240684)

My Mom Says I'm Cool

[TheMojoPin]

Gen-u-ine bonafide, as long as he's telling the truth. This guy's been the source of sketchy info several times before.

Now let's see someone find them.

If they're still out there.

And don't get me wrong, I WANT us to find them. It would make us look a billion times better. Only a fool wants America to look worse and worse in this mess, because it won't do us any good down the line.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-29-04 @ 12:29 PM

[furie]

Printed journalism. Simply cannot be beat for accuracy


yes, like the NY Times.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/zencow.gif">

[TheMojoPin]

yes, like the NY Times

One reporter at one major newspaper.

Compare that at least a dozen factual mis-reportings between the major news networks a DAY. Which they typically don't correct publically...they just report the story differently later in the day. It's not only inaccurate, that's kinda dangerous.

And speaking of the NY Times, people have yet to actually impeach it's credibility overall, outside of vague, "it's a liberal paper!"-insults. Information-wise? They're typically spot-on. Cream of the crop. WORLDWIDE.

And let's not get into these ridiculous "bias" arguments. If the Washington Times can be owned by the mass-wedding-having Moonies and be taken seriously, the insults heaved at the NY Times are nothing but petty pipe-dreams.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

how would u classify this story
As a red herring, for one, since it's off the subject. And second as a statement of opinion on a subject in which there are credible sources involved. The US has sent several teams to Iraq to investigate WMD, including the Iraq Survey Group, who's head, David Kay, has submitted interrim reports and testified to congress on. The original story is about some allegid documents apparently seen only by an Iraqi news organization and opined on by a member of the Governing Council. The difference is the willingness of the news organization to verify the claims before reporting them. In this case the Iraqi foreign minister Hoshiyar Zebari's claims can be compared to David Kay's and judged in comparison. Based on that, I'd say it's another example of an appointed Iraqi official voicing an unfounded opinion.

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[Ndugu]

then what would make our intelligence agencies believe sadaam was building the bomb or making nerve gas, and who's failure is this, cia, dod?


My Mom Says I'm Cool

[Yerdaddy]

then what would make our intelligence agencies believe sadaam was building the bomb or making nerve gas, and who's failure is this, cia, dod?

What are you talking about?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[Ndugu]

i like hot pockets

My Mom Says I'm Cool

[high fly]

[
Compare that at least a dozen factual mis-reportings between the major news networks a DAY. Which they typically don't correct publically...they just report the story differently later in the day. It's not only inaccurate, that's kinda dangerous.

And speaking of the NY Times, people have yet to actually impeach it's credibility overall, outside of vague, "it's a liberal paper!"-insults. Information-wise? They're typically spot-on. Cream of the crop. WORLDWIDE.

And let's not get into these ridiculous "bias" arguments. If the Washington Times can be owned by the mass-wedding-having Moonies and be taken seriously, the insults heaved at the NY Times are nothing but petty pipe-dreams.
[/quote]

Mojo is right about the NY TImes.
I would add something the right wingers would understand--- let the market decide.
The Times is so well regarded, the market has made it as big as it is. It is because of it's reputation built over so many years, that when they DO get something wrong, it's news because of the contrast.
The same is true in D.C.
The Post is so much bigger than the Times because people recognize the excellence of the reporting there.
The Times just flounders about in a distant, almost over the horizon second place, because the reporting is just not as good.

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[Yerdaddy]

The Times just flounders about in a distant, almost over the horizon second place, because the reporting is just not as good.

And because they refuse to acknowledge that Clinton is no longer president.

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[TheMojoPin]

who's failure is this, cia

Bingo.

And I'm saying this as someone who's essentially had the Agency pay for everything in my life through college.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Se7en]

Does he not make good points?

NEVER.

Printed journalism. Simply cannot be beat for accuracy and in-depth analysis.

*coughJaysonBlaircough* ;p

And speaking of the NY Times, people have yet to actually impeach it's credibility overall, outside of vague, "it's a liberal paper!"-insults. Information-wise? They're typically spot-on. Cream of the crop. WORLDWIDE.


I don't have any quibbles about their ability to report the news.

I have nothing but criticism for the way in which I think they've bled their editorial opinions into the actual news reporting.

ESPECIALLY their reporting on Israel.

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This message was edited by Se7en on 1-29-04 @ 2:21 PM

[high fly]

had


" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[TheMojoPin]

Has ANYONE denied the fact Saddam HAD WMD's? Because I doubt that's ever happened anywhere in the history of everything.

And I still defy anyone to actually prove TV journalism is somehow more reliable than print?

Again, print...a couple major accuracy issues a year (Which are supposed to reflect on the industry at large HOW?). TV...a couple a DAY. On each network.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[A.J.]

Damn you for forcing me to do this. It's such an awful cliche at this point.

But you still love me right?

The Post is so much bigger than the Times because people recognize the excellence of the reporting there.

Especially in the Style and Sports sections!

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[Yerdaddy]

who's failure is this, cia



Bingo.
I'm not buying that the CIA should take the fall for the "intelligence failures." The administration changed the basic structures for how intelligence is vetted and filtered on its way up to the president and senior policy-makers, in order to allow policy to dictate the outcome of the intelligence. They excluded traditional liasons to policy meetings from agencies that weren't on board with the polices they wanted. And they created a special office that dominated the the process of reporting intelligence to the president. ( <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030512fa_fact" target="_blank">SELECTIVE INTELLIGENCE</a>) And the administration made specific claims that went beyond what the intel community was stating, and ignored dissenting opinions within the community. I think there were intelligence failures, for sure, but the administration deliberately set themselves up to see only one side of the intelligence picture. That's a much bigger problem in my opinion.

I have nothing but criticism for the way in which I think they've bled their editorial opinions into the actual news reporting.
*coughEvidencecough*

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This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 1-29-04 @ 3:11 PM

[Yerdaddy]

Does he not make good points?



NEVER.


http://www.plyrz.com/images/Bitter_face.jpg
BITTER.

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[Se7en]

I have nothing but criticism for the way in which I think they've bled their editorial opinions into the actual news reporting.
*coughEvidencecough*
[/quote]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0785261044.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

An excellent read.

Feel free to tear it apart, though. This thread's not off topic enough yet.

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[Yerdaddy]

So your argument is that I should read this book and then make your argument for you? You're going to be a horrible lawyer if your closing arguments are: "I think once the jury reads this book, which I am submitting for the record, they will find my client, Mr. Kenneth Lay, innocent of all charges."

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TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[high fly]

(sign on Dubya's desk)

THE BUCK U-TURNS HERE


I recall that the Bay of Pigs was an operation that was handed to JFK as pretty much a fait accompli and he was lied to by intelligence and military figures.
Still, when it all came down, he took full responsibility. There was no whining about the intelligence. I believe the quote was:
"They say success has many fathers but failure is an orphan."
He called in Dulles (head of the CIA) and Bissell (CIA head of plans) and fired their asses. To avoid humiliating them publicly, he let them hang on for about 6 months.


" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[TheMojoPin]

It was hardly a "firing of asses" after the Bay of Pigs.

JFK and RFK were perhaps more directly involved with the CIA over day-to-day affairs and operations than any other president outside of the first Bush (The two of them personally authorized and encouraged more direct White House-to-Agency "black ops" than any other president, period).

Kennedy was not "lied to" over the invasion and the events leading up to it...like today, the intelligence resources developed faulty info which led to a chain of mistakes and misinformation right to the president.

Kennedy had an excellent relationship with Dulles, and his staff. When the snafu occured, Kennedy did indeed take the public blame, while Dulles and he agreed that Dulles and several other top officials should step down. It was very much a mutual decision, and the idea that Kennedy beheaded or betrayed the Agency is a ludicrous notion that exists to this day (Feeding a good chunk of those assassination conspiracy theories).

Kennedy and Bush I have been the Agency's best friends, president-wise, PERIOD.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Se7en, if you can name for us three newspapers with the influence, respect, accuracy and scope of the NY Times, I will be VERY impressed.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-30-04 @ 12:18 AM

[Bestinshow]

The difference is the willingness of the news organization to verify the claims before reporting them.


I hear the BBC is giving seminars on this.

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[TheMojoPin]

See?

Television journalism.

It's the pits.

Even the supposed "best of the best" is getting it socked to 'em.

TRASH IT.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Se7en]

So your argument is that I should read this book and then make your argument for you? You're going to be a horrible lawyer if your closing arguments are: "I think once the jury reads this book, which I am submitting for the record, they will find my client, Mr. Kenneth Lay, innocent of all charges."


Fuck you.

I mean that.

That was low, for you. If you think I'm full of shit, that's fine - I usually am, most of the time.

From now on, though, don't breathe a fucking word about my personal life or my career because you don't know a goddamn thing about either.

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[HBox]

http://www.somalicat.com/foxykats/kungfo.gif

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[Yerdaddy]

Don't start taking this shit personal because you've been bird dogging me in this forum for a long time. You set the tone of our communication. I repeatedly ask you to make your arguments and you dodge them repeatedly. Instead you throw out cliches and attack anyone who doesn't accept them as fact. Now you're acting oversensitive just because you don't want to be called on it.

I don't have anything personal against you. This is politics and we disagree. Just like I disagree with my father and good friends of mine. I still respect them, and I still respect you. I'm assuming that the sniping you've done in this thread, just as one example, are just partisan humor at my expense. Mine was no worse. You want to stop now, then you start with your own posts. You want to start having political debates based on rational arguments, then start doing it. I'll let you continue to set the tone.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
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[TheMojoPin]

Settle down and take it to PM/IM, ladies.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Ndugu]

what u guys need is hookers

That's it Billy get the hell out of here!