Fucking Great!

[sr71blackbird]

Sometimes I wonder if it is the goal of our government to have ALL of us unemployed. How will whats said in this
article (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1209&e=2&u=/ap/20040203/ap_on_hi_te/india_outsourcing) regarding having India do most of the "back office" work for companies create, as the article states, a larger middle class? With thousands and thousands of jobs fleeing this country in droves to head for the plentiful cheap labor of countries like India, what will we all DO here? We are losing manufacturing, technological and now clerical, what will be left? Is the goal to eventually drive us from our own shores? Seriously, am I missing something?
I know its not related to the article but drive down any semi run down hispanic neighborhood and youll see groups of Spanish guys waiting for trucks to stop so they can do day laborer stuff. They take the money and use what they need to live and send the rest back to the homeland. There it is bankrolled until they have enough to either send for more family up here or they retire down there with the money. Isnt that leaching us dry slowly? Im not trying to be racial or anything, as Im sure my ancestors did similar things when they came over from Italy, but at least they were trying to make a descent life HERE.
Im fearful that we are already well on our way to be a temporary society with transient jobs and eventually this land will be a ghost town.

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[monsterone]

funny thing. i have a dell computer and the thing is a fucking workhorse. it's a great product and so i was looking to get a dell jukebox since i was shopping for an mp3 player.

so i call up to get the spec and prices, and i had to be on the phone with this script reading fucktard. a 5 minute phone call turned into half an hour. dell makes good shit, but i can't support a company that is out-sourcing tech support and such. oh well, they lost 300 of my dollars.


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MO¥+ErO¥E.
moe & steels, you
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[Heavy]

Dude, we all know immigrants, even illegals are needed to do our jobs. Who wants the job Hector has installing cable in peoples houses. Certianly not Americans. We should just be happy all our not geat paying jobs are being taken by foriegners. *


* I didnt read the link but will assume something happened with people coming in OR jobs going out.

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[KC2OSO]

I'm working with an 'offshore' (India) group now who is doing a kick-ass job with a product upgrade we are going through. Our timeline to rollout is March and there is no way we would be able to find the resources to handle this on time. I think my boss made a good choice in choosing to go offshore.
Are there Americans capable of doing the same job? Sure, but not at the same cost, speed, and organization.




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This message was edited by Fester on 2-3-04 @ 9:34 PM

[sr71blackbird]

So my question was; What are we going to DO if we give everything away? I understand that its great to pay people peanuts if they are willing and able to do it off shore, but what about us? How will not having any jobs available for us be a benefit? What will your children do?

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[Heavy]

Remind your boss to kill himself for me.

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HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[KC2OSO]

My point was that there is nobody capable of doing the job here in one month for, like you say, peanuts.

What? Is my company, and me, going to go down the tubes? Because honestly, it will take us three or four months to find and hire Americans who could do the job. We don't have that time/budget.

We're talking about two different things though. I'm talking about a one-off software project that went out to the highest bidder. No BFD.

The larger problem you are talking about, the complete deindustrialization of America, NAFTA, and the shipment of real day-to-day jobs overseas and to Mexico, is another subject. Please don't get me started. I'm the biggest protectionist motherfucker you will find.

Visit this site (http://detroityes.com/home.htm) it's is an eye opener. I have no fucking answer.

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[sr71blackbird]

Im just trying to open eyes. I cant believe that shit like that article, and whoever in the government that supports that crap should be given a continuous earfull and voted out of office. For most of my life Ive voted more towards the right, but since the powers that be seem to be in staunch favor of exporting jobs, I cant support them, because they wont support me. Not everyone can or should be a doctor/lawyer/industrialist. We need to keep what we have or there will be nothing left but day-labor for US soon.

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[phixion]

well first of all the reason why the people offshore can work for peanuts is because they have a much lower cost of living. if we had a much lower cost of living then we would be able to charge peanuts as well. then there is the problem of productivity, what can you do if someone offshore does a better job quicker? you really cant blame someone for hiring them. you should blame the poor slobs who believe that they can work half assed and not get their jobs done.

and id just like to bring up the point that by putting up a clerical business like this in india it will help people find steady jobs, while not working at a sweatshop. it helps raise nations out of poverty status.

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"Go sit on the toilet and pull and tug on your weiner until white stuff comes out."

[sr71blackbird]

WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO FOR A LIVING??!!

Its great that they have the ability and the low cost of living. Why dont they provide their services to their own country? I know the answer is that "thats the way it is" and everyone just shrugs and says "its not my job", but we will one day reach a critical mass, where a large enough percentage of us are not employed any longer and the ones that are have to bear their burden to the point that it is no longer productive...at that point, how will India help us? Will they be in charge of writing our unemployment checks? No one is seeing the larger issue here....

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[Doomstone]

No one is seeing the larger issue here


I'd say it's more like, people are finally starting to see it...

-------------------------------

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[KC2OSO]

well first of all the reason why the people offshore can work for peanuts is because they have a much lower cost of living.


America doesn't have the testicles to impose the cost of living import tax that would even the playing field. That would kill the deal(s).
(Although I agree with you)

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This message was edited by Fester on 2-3-04 @ 11:29 PM

[TheMojoPin]

I know its not related to the article but drive down any semi run down hispanic neighborhood and youll see groups of Spanish guys waiting for trucks to stop so they can do day laborer stuff. They take the money and use what they need to live and send the rest back to the homeland. There it is bankrolled until they have enough to either send for more family up here or they retire down there with the money. Isnt that leaching us dry slowly?

I agree with most of what else you said, but I don't get this part at all. It's like you're saying that American money spent outside of America is somehow draining us, which doesn't make any sense at all.

As for the rest, until the government regulates taxes to effect domestic companies going overseas, or offers federal incentives, these companies are going to keep going overseas because labor (On a whole) will continually be better, more plentiful and cheaper. The business world doesn't run on good intentions.

At the same time, a balance might be achieved because of all this. Most immigrants come here to find work. If the work is coming to them, immigration will no doubt continually decrease. As such, the job pool will actually open up as it contracts. Of course, many of these will be low paying jobs that Bush very keenly said were ones that "Americans will NOT take" today. So who knows? Balance may still exist...but maybe people will just have to buckle down more than they think they want to.

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[HBox]

People used to come to the U.S. to get jobs. Now the jobs come to them.

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[TheMojoPin]

In Soviet Russia, jobs get YOU!!!

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-4-04 @ 12:45 AM

[MizzleTizzle]

I know its not related to the article but drive down any semi run down hispanic neighborhood and youll see groups of Spanish guys waiting for trucks to stop so they can do day laborer stuff. They take the money and use what they need to live and send the rest back to the homeland. There it is bankrolled until they have enough to either send for more family up here or they retire down there with the money. Isnt that leaching us dry slowly?


Well, first the money.

If you look to the california illegal scene, they aren't making any, for the most part. There are one or two legit comapnies that hire illegals, but the rest are hired and often paid nothing. They are instead 'given' a part of the field to produce, and they get what they can, and owe the owner the rest, in seeming perpetuity.

Sharecropping. Many, many thousands of them make absolutely no money at all.

The economic drain is there, yes. Remember also that in many way, California feeds the USA. And for things like Strawberries, a very hand-labor but high-profit crop; the illegals are quietly subsidizing a multi-billion dollar agriculture base.

As to the jobs here; like others said, you either have free trade or you will lose jobs to places like India and China simply because they have cultures where people will do the work for a couple of thousand a year.

I saw a feature on a local furniture making business, and was blown away. It's Cheaper to take the Wood, put it on a boat to China, have the Chinese assemble it, and put it on a boat back here. That's where the jobs went.

So I have no easy answer. Different societies.

---

--

just below the surface of what we might call our ordinary lives lie riches

[sr71blackbird]

I agree with most of what else you said, but I don't get this part at all. It's like you're saying that American money spent outside of America is somehow draining us, which doesn't make any sense at all.


No disrespect, but if American money is not staying here, and being circulated and kept outside of here, it doesnt benefit our country. American money overseas has value over foreign money even in its own country. You can usually buy more things with an American dollar bill than you could with its equivlent, value for value overseas.
With physical money being kept off our shores, how is its shortage of supply made up? They print more money.
I understand that if I kept taking my earned money and sending it to a bank account in Italy, and lets say everyone took half their earned money and sent it overseas, their will be a drain on the available money here in some way, and merely printing more money is not the answer to this shortage, because the other money that is kept overseas still has value.

My main argument is JOBS. I am facing the possibility that I may have to find a new job soon. If I did, will I make what Im making now? No. I'll have to start over, change my lifestyle and have to lean to live with less. As jobs dissapear, the scarcity of the availble jobs and the transient nature of the one remaining will force people to live with less. Meanwhile, we all still have to pay our rent, mortgage, car payments, etc.
Is the goal of allowing all this to eventually force a lower cost of living on us? Im all for that, but what happens until that happens in terms of rent and homes? I still see homes are expensive, rents are still high if you look in the paper. Maybe they are hoping that if its easy to make money in India say, that fewer Indians would come here and the ones that are here will move back, or whatever. Is the hope that we fill whatever jobs they had when they go back? If all the Chinese in Chinatown decided to move back to China, what fills the void their departure creates? The easy answer is that we will do what they were doing. Im also not suggesting that we are "owed" an existance either, and the market creates its own need. I think what will happen is that people will start to move to areas where its cheaper to live and where less money will give you a comfortable life because the cost of living is lower. If I moved to Florida to make $6 an hour, and rent down there is $300 a month, I can live ok. If lots of us leave NY to go seek that type of life, what happens to NY? Where will the money come from to pay its infrastructure? Im using it as an example. Please, give me some hope.

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[TheMojoPin]

No disrespect, but if American money is not staying here, and being circulated and kept outside of here, it doesnt benefit our country. American money overseas has value over foreign money even in its own country. You can usually buy more things with an American dollar bill than you could with its equivlent, value for value overseas.

Well, to be blunt, you don't seem to have a concept of the global economy most of the countries of the world have been involved with for at least 30 years now. Our money is designed and planned to "travel." It's not static and not meant "for our borders only." Most of the international and domestic financial strength it has that you mentioned is because it CAN do all this.

The rest of your argument is practically a carbon copy of what people were saying 10-15 years ago. Then the "bubble" of the 90's formed. It's cliche now, but these things go in cycles. New jobs and job sectors will always be needed and created here. Like the dollar, American business is static. There will NEVER be a point where they can just say, "OK, we don't need anymore jobs/industries/technological advancements/etc.. We're DONE."

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[IrishAlkey]

God damn Yakov gets me every time!




In pisshole Mexico, beans refry you!

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[furie]

I've been saying this for a while. What's worse is that the new twist is out-sourcing inside America, foreign nationals on H-1b and L1 visas, primarily from India working here. Bush's guest worker plan doesn't do shit for the mexicans. mexicans aren't an issue. if i'm an employer paying someone $1/hour, i'm not going to apply for a visa for this guy, But companies like TCS will, and they do.

fucking sad. we went from industrial to a service economy, and now that's going. And I don't know what can be done. I've written to our senators, I complained within the ranks. No one wants to hear it.



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[sr71blackbird]

to be blunt


The concept doesnt escape me, it apalls me that here we have gained the wealth we have as a great country by being self reliant all these years and now we will export jobs under some plan to help other countrys grow. I understand that they themselves cant grow within their own borders as we did because they themselves dont have the money, but surely you can see how if we have 50 billion dollars say, and lose 5 billion a year, that sooner or later the money will be gone. A leaking boat will eventually sink. Thats just money, Im talking jobs. Jobs that allow people to create money from money, that enable people to afford to live here. If jobs go away, those people that made that money will seek other ways to make money, but usually they wont be able to find a job that pays what they were making, so they are forced to accept less, and modify their lives if they dont want to be in debt, right? How do foreigners do it when they come here? They room a few familys in one house and share the expenses and sleep on the floors and whatnot until they can save enough to make their own wealth. Is that my future? From this concept, it most surely will be, and not just mine.
Im not saying that because Im American that I am entitled to it and I dont believe that a gun should be forced to the head of corporate America and say "You keep jobs here or else.." We seem to care more for other countrys than our own people and if this continues, there will be only 2 strata of society, the super rich and the super poor and absolutely no middle class, that is right now bearing the brunt of the taxes and doing by far most of the work, but wont be here for long if this continues.

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[Se7en]

God damn Yakov gets me every time!




In pisshole Mexico, beans refry you!

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In my country, messageboard post on you!!!!!

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[El Mudo]

Is there any thread that goes by without some mention of Yakov?

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[TheMojoPin]

Only if it's a thread of ASS.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

sr71, you talk like dollars that "leave the country" don't come back. Nothing is further from the truth. The dollar is the original Euro, in terms of it being accepted and of value in many countries around the world. The purchasing cycle of a dollar that travels over the border is circular, especially with the way commerce is practiced these days. Physical money itself is becoming less and less relevant.

As for the rest, I see potential problems, but I guess I'm not that much of an alarmist. This argument has existed in some kind of form in America for about 150 years now. Business goes where the money goes. People follow. America's economic structure has been incredibly adaptive again and again over it's short history. Our credo has essentially been, "if there's money to be made, Americans will make it," no matter where or how it's being made.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[monsterone]

we have an election coming up, vote for someone with integrity and the needs of the people in the forefront. you can aire your complaints with the current administration, the nature of politics, and the capitalist economy. but when it come down to it, you need someone with a platform everyone can get behind:



















































































































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MO¥+ErO¥E.
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are greatly missed... you too
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This message was edited by monsterone on 2-5-04 @ 12:23 AM

[sr71blackbird]

Mojo, I understand your point, but see that manufacturing is going away, the towns where they had manufacturing plants dry up and people relocate. The argument a few years back was that these were jobs "no one wanted anyway". When I look at Manhattan, I see office buildings. Offices full of people who get paid alot, I know they get alot more there then theyd get paid out here on Long Island because the cost of living and commuting is expensive. I dont deny that, but Im sure the companys that pay these people to do whatever office work they do in Manhattan will look at India as a possibility, especially as Indians get more proficient with the language and the technology. At that point, the companys will say "Why pay these people here this expense when they are willing to do it in India for so little? It will save me overhead, insurance, and room and board, plus no labor issues." I look at Manhattan again, it once had a great deal of manufacturing jobs there, the garment district and what-not. Now thats gone. The people that use to do that had to either adapt to a more clerical environment or move down south if they wanted to keep doing what they were doing. The remaining bulk of jobs in the city are mainly clerical and design related. Some stores and delis and import/export warehousing and stuff. Its true that we are an adaptive people and we have always found a way to make money, but I think we are running at a deficit in regards to having the market cornered on productivity. No one has jobs that they work at for 40 years anymore, jobs that give you a sence of stability. As I drive around here, I see homes for sale, on every block I go down. Maybe Im living a pipe dream for the days of yore, but I would like to live in a world that is less transient. This transient nature is now pervasive in our culture; marriages, relationships, business, Moe, banks, now jobs. All are things that are here today, gone tomorrow.
I know that the world is not static, that things come and go, and that roots are for trees and all those old cliche's, but what are we going to become when we dont expect our institutions to be built upon a solid foundation? I think that it is part of the reason why no one has any faith anylonger.

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[TheMojoPin]

So, ultimately, we just became too rich for our own good?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Recyclerz]

I read through this thread yesterday with a shifting mixture of shock, despair, disbelief and the occasional ray of hope. I refrained from posting a reply because I couldn't think of any response that wasn't hopelessly bore-ass and unfunny (although that hasn't stopped me before) or insultingly mean.

I have since remembered a great article by Michael Lind from this month's The Atlantic that speaks to what I think SR71's concerns are.

Are We still a Middle-Class Nation? (http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2004/01/lind.htm)

It's very accessible reading (if not as "easy" as People) and still free on the Site. Highly recommended for anyone who is actually interested in thinking/learning about the issue rather than just worrying or complaining about it.

Enjoy.



[b]Sig-less in Gaza[b]

[high fly]

Golly, and by now Clinton had created over 8 million new jobs and cut the then record deficit from 29.38 billion to 170 billion.

All the Bushicans had to do was follow the Clinton Model.



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[A.J.]

Golly, and by now Clinton had created over 8 million new jobs

I didn't realize the Executive Branch was responsible for HR in the private sector.

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[high fly]

[I didn't realize the Executive Branch was responsible for HR in the private sector.


What does "Buzz" Haldeman have to do with any of this?

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[furie]

from 29.38 billion to 170 billion.


29.38 is much less than 170


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[TheMojoPin]

Why is the assumption that our economy and social structure will not adapt and evolve as it has again and again and again and again and again and again and over and over and over and over and over as it has constantly for the last 300 years? Why all the automatic doom 'n' gloom? As THAT has also been on repeat for almost 200 years now...

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[sr71blackbird]

Dude, Im just saying, these types of jobs are keeping a LOT of people employed here. I dont like the idea that because some people in government "think" that no one "likes" those kinds of jobs, that its good enough reason to encourage overseas companys to sweep the jobs away. Lets use an arbitrary number, say, 5,000,000 jobs are here now. If 2,000,000 of those jobs can be done outside of here, what are the 2,000,000 people going to do? The answer I keep seeing you and the others say is "find something else to do", but WHAT? We cant just stop being an office clerk and become a CEO of a bank somewhere, because we have to live in the meantime. Im also not suggesting that what we have is ''owed'' us, nor that a law be passed guranteeing jobs. I dont know the answer, but unless their aim is get people to leave here, or as an attempt to get the cost of living down by means of whittling down the workforce into a mindset of a transient worker culture, then the quality of both life and product will suffer. I, personally, have gone through career changes, I lost 2 jobs I had within 4 months 4 years ago, and have been struggling to get back to what I ws making then and now it seems I have to do it again soon. Im sick of it. A lot of people tell me that gone are the days of working at a job for 40 years. Now, I dont mind making sideways steps, going from a physical job to a clerical job, as an example. Ive tried both, Im 38, I dont think I can go work in construction now, nor will I be able to start over in a new company that pays more than $14 an hour. I really dont know what to do, and Im feeling a great deal of dispair, so forgive me for rambling on about it.

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[TheMojoPin]

I dont like the idea that because some people in government "think" that no one "likes" those kinds of jobs, that its good enough reason to encourage overseas companys to sweep the jobs away.

Hold on, I'm honestly confused here. Are you talking about the comments I brought up, where Bush was talking about the LOW-PAYING jobs that most Americans don't want and the immigrants get? Because that's what I was talking about...he was talking about minimum-wage and below jobs...the stuff that the average American will NOT take. Not the kind of jobs you're talking about.

As for the rest, I don't know. I don't proclaim to be anything close to an economics expert. All I know is is that our economy is remarkably adaptable, and the argument you're making is one that has existed in some form for about 150 years now. Yes, change causes job loss, which is unfortunate, but I don't see longterm warning signs that indicate something as dire as what you may think is coming.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-8-04 @ 12:15 AM

[sr71blackbird]

No, not the low paying jobs, middle class jobs like back office work that is now going to become so inexpensive for companys to export to India. They have developed the technical sophistication to be able, through the internet and 800 #s, to support and facilitate many companys back-office workload that use to employ people like us Americans. I hope your right, that when all the white collar and blue collar jobs dry up, that it will open up a new kind of market that people over there wont be able to take from us. I feel that if we lose too many jobs, that it will have a snowball effect on so many other things.

<center>
http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/sr71.gif </center>


<center><B>My Thanks to ADF for the sig-pic!</B></center>

<center><B><strike>Bandwidth Hound</strike></B></center>

<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=1>( o Y o )</marquee>

[TheMojoPin]

Well, just to be devil's advocate...if someone is willing to do a job as good as or better as the person currently doing it, and for less money and cost, are they actually "taking" the job? I'm not talking in a gut-reaction, "he stole it"-sorta way...business-wise, it's a natural, and ultimately smart decision.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[ADF]

he was talking about minimum-wage and <b>below jobs</b>


Can I get one of those?

<center><img src = "http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/adfblink.gif"><br>I'm so glad the cheat is not dead.</center>

[TheMojoPin]

Oh, my stars and garters! You darn knucklehead!

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[high fly]

http://www.yourmomsbox.net/alkey/yakov.jpg


SR71, this is all part of a brilliant strategy to deal with illegal immigrants.
It works like this:
1)Hordes of illegal immigrants come pouring across the border in search of jobs;
2)Brilliant Republicans export jobs;
3) Illegal immigrants turn back and chase those jobs overseas!

The idea reportedly was part of that GREAT advise that Dick Cheney got from Kenneth Lay....

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[El Mudo]

SR71, this is all part of a brilliant strategy to deal with illegal immigrants.
It works like this:
1)Hordes of illegal immigrants come pouring across the border in search of jobs;
2)Brilliant Republicans export jobs;
3) Illegal immigrants turn back and chase those jobs overseas!

The idea reportedly was part of that GREAT advise that Dick Cheney got from Kenneth Lay....


What does that have to do with a giant picture of Yakov??

http://www.oaklandchamber.com/images/oakland_raiders_logo.gif <marquee> Standing in the pouring rain...All alone in a world that's changed...Running scared now forced to hide....In a land where he once stood with pride</marquee>

[furie]

2)Brilliant Republicans export jobs


jobs have been exported by both parties for over 30 years now, Mr Partisan


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