Bush AWOL, or no? [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

Yerdaddy

02-10-2004, 02:18 AM

This wasn't a big part of the 2000 campaign, but it looks like it will be this time around. Will documents turn up that prove that Bush reported for duty in Alabama, as he claims, that he didn't report, or will no documents turn up to resolve it at all?

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26843-2004Feb9.html" target="_blank">Defense Dept. Seeks Bush's Guard File</a>

The Defense Department has requested that President Bush's payroll records from his service in the National Guard be sent to Washington from a DOD archive in Colorado, to ascertain whether they can be released to news organizations and public interest groups that have formally requested them in recent days, according to DOD officials.

Bush enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard in 1968, two weeks before graduating from Yale and at the height of the Vietnam War.

...

At issue is a 12-month period, commencing in May 1972, when Bush moved to Alabama to work on a senatorial campaign. He received permission to transfer to an Alabama unit and was instructed to report to duty there. There is no definitive evidence in his file that he reported to the Alabama unit to perform drills; Bush has said he did report and perform drills.

Bush's personnel records also are vague on what he did in the Texas Guard after returning to Houston after the Senate election he worked on. The first date in the records for 1973 is May 29, when they indicate he attended drills. The records show he attended drills at least 18 times between May 29 and July 30.

In his annual evaluation, covering the period of May 1972 to April 1973, Lt. Col. William D. Harris wrote that he could not evaluate Bush because "he has not been observed" in Houston. Bush left the Guard in October 1973 to attend Harvard Business School.

...

According to military experts familiar with National Guard records, there are two documents that could indicate whether Bush reported for drills during that year. One is an annual summary of his points, the quantitative measure of his service. The summary includes each date he reported for a drill and how many points he received toward his annual requirement.

His official personnel record, obtained by The Post in 2000, does not include a summary of service for the time in Alabama. There is a sheet, where the name has been torn off, that includes dates for that period, but there is no way to confirm it refers to Bush because his Social Security number has been redacted. Also, no one who served in Bush's Alabama unit at that time has come forward, despite years of publicity on the subject. The brigadier general Bush was to report to in Alabama has said he has no recollection of Bush's doing so.

The other documents that should still be available are Bush's payroll records, which would show what drills Bush was compensated for during that period. Officials said yesterday that the DOD in Washington would review the master copy of Bush's payroll records, which have been stored on microfiche for 30 years at the Defense Finance and Accounting Service in Denver.

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Reephdweller

02-10-2004, 03:11 AM

I see a lot of coverage is being made of this, but I have to wonder if it turns out that Bush actually did as he said he did, does that hurt Kerry? For all the accusations that have been claimed about Bush's service, I think it would be a blow to the democrats argument to find out that he did as he claimed.

With all that being said though, I really think John Kerry is pushing this war veteran thing too far. What I mean is, if he main argument is going to be that he's right for the job because he served in a war and was a war hero, how long can he keep telling us this before people go "alright already you were in a war, put it to rest...tell us more about you!". I think ultimately down the road Kerry's numbers will fall.

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sr71blackbird

02-10-2004, 03:17 AM

From what I hear about Kerry, se says things now that within even the past few years he is on record of saying the complete opposite. Hes a great speaker and can really get you going, but I think they will find out about his flip flops on important issues and it will hurt him.

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curtoid

02-10-2004, 04:00 AM

It's very odd that there is no one that remembers him during this time being where he says he was - no commanding officers, no buddies, nothing. I mean, if I'm running around bragging about going to high school with Johnny Puke, I would imagine that there were people who would have remembered and would have bragged about him then.

Also, the fact that ALL of the papers that would help support his claim that he was there are gone - burned. Another convenient *oops*.

I mean - we're talking about one year in the man's life! And the best defense he can give is a wimpy "Don't bust on the National Guard"? Please!

Talk to your guy first, President, before slammed the Democrats:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." (Colin Powell's autobiography, My American Journey, page 148)

I have to think that if he really did have proof to support that he was there, that it would have been out long ago. He said he released his records in 2000, but he didn't - not like McCain and Gore did, both of whom were there.

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I'm actually surprised this is growing legs, since it has been out there for so long. Poor Wes Clark got raked over the coals just weeks ago for not defending the President when Michael Moore made the statements, now it seems like it's open season for everyone to pile on.

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Teenweek

02-10-2004, 04:28 AM

John Kerry's own words in 1992 on this topic (http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/goto/?getPage=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eopinionjournal%2Ecom%2 Fextra%2F%3Fid%3D110004646&return=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edrudgereportarchives%2Ec om%2Fdsp%2Flinks%5Frecap%2Ehtm)

NewYorkDragons80

02-10-2004, 07:17 AM

I don't think this should be an issue, but if it is to be an issue, it should be about why Bush joined the ANG and not the Air Force. I tend to believe Bush did show up for duty in Alabama and the reason nobody remembers him is because it was such a two-bit operation. They didn't have any planes, nor did they take attendance. I remember hearing the meetings were held in some guy's basement.
Report (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/02/10/bush_credited_for_guard_drills/)

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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 2-10-04 @ 11:29 AM

TheMojoPin

02-10-2004, 09:32 AM

John Kerry's own words in 1992 on this topic

So you can't see the difference between a schmuck like Clinton not serving, and a schmuck like Bush actually going AWOL? Or you just don't WANT to?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-10-04 @ 3:10 PM

Reephdweller

02-10-2004, 10:45 AM

I don't really care about Bush either being AWOL or serving. I think his own job performance over the last four years should be what people judge him on. I'm not saying that to support him, but rather that people should look at what he has done, or hasn't and based on the job he's done decide if they approve or disapprove of how he's done things. I don't care if he served 30 years aog or not. I don't think a military background automatically qualifies someone. I think it's helpful to have it, but it's not the ultimate deciding factor in my choice for a president. I go based upon job experience and what they've done in the past.

While I don't support Howard Dean I do know he's balanced budgets and did a fairly good job as governor. I look at these kinds of things and whatever else they did while in office to help make my mind of who I will pick. I look at John Kerry and see someone who flip flops very often, who says one thing and then another, and I don't like it. I don't like anyone who doesn't stand their ground. I guess that takes me back to Dean, I don't agree with Dean but I do admire his unwavoring stance on the war and other topics. I think those qualities are what I want in the person who will lead the country. I haven't made my mind on who I will vote for, but I do believe that whoever it is, should believe in what they say, and not follow what they read in polls and public opinion surveys. I don't know if any of these candidates or Bush are my choice, but I don't particularly care one way or the other over someone being a war hero or whatever. It's what they do and have done and how they stand on the issues that helps me make up my mind.

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TheMojoPin

02-10-2004, 11:11 AM

I look at John Kerry and see someone who flip flops very often, who says one thing and then another, and I don't like it.

Sounds like another heaping helping of Clinton all over again.

UGH.

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phixion

02-10-2004, 11:41 AM

did clinton ever commit ground troops in a war? did he even declare war? im not sure whether he did or not but i dont think he did. now thats the line to draw. also clinton was a self made man he came from a middle class family to president. i have alot of respect for self made men, those that get where they are because of money or who there fathers are get less respect from me.

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Reephdweller

02-10-2004, 12:19 PM

did clinton ever commit ground troops in a war? did he even declare war? im not sure whether he did or not but i dont think he did.

I could have sworn we sent ground troops to Bosnia and in Africa under Clinton.

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dingo

02-10-2004, 12:25 PM

I do believe that the incidents in Black Hawk Down took place while clinton was in office. Cause i do belive that it was the father of one of the delta snipers told clinton that he was this country"s biggest disgrace after he accepted the medal of honnor for his son
i was close but here is what happened (http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3933385e7976.htm)

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TheMojoPin

02-10-2004, 12:54 PM

did clinton ever commit ground troops in a war? did he even declare war? im not sure whether he did or not but i dont think he did.

You're wrong.

The Balkans.
Somalia.
Haiti.
Rwanda.

And while not "troops on the ground," don't forget all the bombing raids in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Outside of the fact that foreign leaders simply seemed to like the guy, our foreign policy and actions suffered horribly under Clinton. I didn't think anyone could possibly be worse...until Dubya came along.

Hooray?

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curtoid

02-10-2004, 01:06 PM

I look at John Kerry and see someone who flip flops very often, who says one thing and then another, and I don't like it.

Sounds like another heaping helping of Clinton all over again.

Yeah...because it would be horrible for someone in that position to make compromises with peope of the both parties that might stumble onto something that might help most of the people, instead of alienating half of the country implementing a rigid agenda (ie: "Your Belief") that was designed by unelected officials with lots of money and lots of influence.

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This message was edited by curtoid on 2-10-04 @ 5:08 PM

Doomstone

02-10-2004, 01:13 PM

Calpundit has been doing a fantastic job of covering this story over the past week.

http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003182.html
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003183.html
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003189.html
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003193.html
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003203.html
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003214.html
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003215.html
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003220.html
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003226.html
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003228.html
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003230.html
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003231.html
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003232.html

Right now, the biggest mystery is what Dubya was doing from May-September of 1972, when he apparently failed to report for drills and blew off his physical, and was subsequently transferred to the Air Reserve Forces as punishment.

I don't think anyone would or should care too much if a)he would just admit the truth about his less than stellar service, and b)he weren't so reckless in using the very military that he went to such lengths to avoid serving in.

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TheMojoPin

02-10-2004, 01:19 PM

KOP says "compromises."

I say "wishy-washy."

Compromises would be fine if someone had something they stood by in the first place. Clinton typically gave little to no indication as what (If ANY) stance or opinion he had on practically EVERYTHING. There's such a thing as being open to suggestion and compromise...and something completely different when it's obvious someone is just sitting back and going with whatever serves THEM the most.

I disagree with practically everything Bush has done or said, but at least he isn't half the slavish poll-whore Clinton was.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-10-04 @ 10:44 PM

TheMojoPin

02-10-2004, 01:21 PM

I don't think anyone would or should care too much if a)he would just admit the truth about his less than stellar service

Always the best and easiest solution, yet public officials seem to act like this option is some kind of cancer.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-10-04 @ 5:28 PM

A.J.

02-10-2004, 01:39 PM

Bush AWOL, or no?

He was seen at a Chicago Cubs game and a parade where he sang "Danke Schoen".

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Se7en

02-10-2004, 05:38 PM

Right now, the biggest mystery is what Dubya was doing from May-September of 1972, when he apparently failed to report for drills and blew off his physical, and was subsequently transferred to the Air Reserve Forces as punishment.

The White House evidently released documents today detailing Bush's service in the Guard as well as evidence which shows how he fulfilled his commitments, thus qualifying him for a honorable discharge.

The question now is, will this be enough for some people? I'm asking this of the people here who don't like Bush, especially on this issue.....the documents were just released so obviously it'll probably be tomorrow at the earliest that we see them analyzed and commented on. But if the documents are on the up & up, and exonerate Bush to a degree, will that change anything for you? Or will this ultimately still fall, like so much else does, to simple partisan politics?

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Doomstone

02-10-2004, 06:41 PM

Well, the payroll records released by the White House today are online here (http://www.nationalreview.com/york/bush3.pdf).

They seem to indicate that Dubya was not paid from April 17 through October 27 of 1972, the period that's been in question.

Interesting...

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TheMojoPin

02-10-2004, 06:49 PM

But if the documents are on the up & up, and exonerate Bush to a degree, will that change anything for you?

Of course not. Even if it's valid.

Just look to the whole JFK conspiracy thing. Literally millions of documents and pieces of evidence have been released that pretty much all point to LHO working alone. Yet most conspiracy buffs just dismiss each of these as they come out as yet another part of this phantom "conspiracy" that doesn't necessarily even exist...they just WANT it to.

It's the same thing here with this issue. Certain people in the population are so "anti-government" (Be it altogether or just particular officials or administrations) that anything "officially" released will just automatically be dismissed as a lie or false information.

There's just no pleasin' some people...

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schmega

02-10-2004, 06:51 PM

it'd be terrible if he was judged on this issue now of all things, instead of his 4 years as president.

HBox

02-10-2004, 06:57 PM

I was going to write a lengthy reply to Se7en's post, but then I realized something.

The White House evidently released documents today detailing Bush's service in the Guard as well as evidence which shows how he fulfilled his commitments, thus qualifying him for a honorable discharge

Evidently? Evidently!? Why don't you actually look at what the released and find out what they mean before writing us off as partisan hacks.

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Yerdaddy

02-10-2004, 07:19 PM

There some points in <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27178-2004Feb9.html" target="_blank">this OP/ED</a>, (WP just started a registration program for their website), that make me think that the producing of documents may not clear things up definitively.

During the Vietnam War, I was what filmmaker Michael Moore would call a "deserter." Along with President Bush and countless other young men, I joined the National Guard, did my six months of active duty (basic training, etc.) and then returned to my home unit, where I eventually dropped from sight. In the end, just like President Bush, I got an honorable discharge.

...

I did my basic and advanced training (combat engineer) and returned to my unit. I was supposed to attend weekly drills and summer camp, but I found them inconvenient. I "moved" to California and then "moved" back to New York, establishing a confusing paper trail that led, really, nowhere. For two years or so, I played a perfectly legal form of hooky. To show you what a mess the Guard was at the time, I even got paid for all the meetings I missed.

In the end, I wound up in the Army Reserve. I was assigned to units for which I had no training -- tank repairman, for instance. In some units, we sat around with nothing to do and in one we took turns delivering antiwar lectures. The National Guard and the Reserves were something of a joke. Everyone knew it. Books have been written about it. Maybe things changed dramatically by 1972, two years after I got my discharge, but I kind of doubt it.

If the Guard and Reserves were as disorganized as he describes then there are probably going to be some documents that could be considered reliable evidence that he was there, and some that won't. If he produces documents that don't really prove he was there, like pay records that he might have recieved even if he didn't show up, then this will stay divided down partisan lines.

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MizzleTizzle

02-11-2004, 04:51 AM

it'd be terrible if he was judged on this issue now of all things, instead of his 4 years as president.

I doubt he will be.

I have a feeling in November when people go to pull the Ballot lever, if they are at all undecided, two things might cross there minds before this:

1. How are we doing regarding terrorism and this war?

2. How are we doing economically?

And the direction of either of those has, is, and will continue to change. I'm waiting for November, and sticking with dog rape.

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This message was edited by MizzleTizzle on 2-11-04 @ 8:52 AM

MizzleTizzle

02-11-2004, 04:54 AM

This wasn't a big part of the 2000 campaign, but it looks like it will be this time around.

Remember the 'Huge Revelations' and discussion of 'what charges' might be brought up when that guy I can't even remember now was in a Book saying Bush planned Iraq pre-election?

That was Huge too. For about 72 hours.

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newport king

02-11-2004, 05:24 AM

personally i think john mccain should bitch slap these two, the war hero and the deserter. try spending a few years in a tiger cage boys.

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TheMojoPin

02-11-2004, 12:59 PM

Wasn't Kerry shot a couple times?

Are we REALLY going to be as bad as them and compare who's the "better" war hero?

Speaking of McCain, anyone else see the special on the History Channel last year that showed how he almost bought it on his aircraft carrier during 'Nam? He was in his jet, waiting to take off, when one of the other jets receiving maintenance actually shot off an active missile by mistake and hit another jet, detonanting and launching ITS missiles, and again and again and again down the line...planes, bombs, missiles, ammunition, gas, it's ALL going up...just absolute hell...and right in the middle of it, McCain manages to get out of his plane by crawling along the nose and onto the deck. He tried to help another pilot, but an explosion went off and blasted him over ten feet away and basically out of the blaze. Unbelievable.

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A.J.

02-11-2004, 01:24 PM

Wasn't Kerry shot a couple times?

Yes -- I believe he earned a couple of Purple Hearts (among other decorations).

Speaking of McCain, anyone else see the special on the History Channel last year that showed how he almost bought it on his aircraft carrier during 'Nam?

Yeah, that was aboard USS Forrestal in 1967. McCain was saved by a sailor who pulled him out of his plane -- then was incinerated right in front of him. It was the heroism of several sailors who died at their stations that saved the ship from sinking.

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phixion

02-11-2004, 01:25 PM

just for the record i was asking a legitmate question about clinton and ground troops, no sarcasm was involved......

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TheMojoPin

02-11-2004, 01:27 PM

Sarcasm?

It didn't get more simple than my answer.

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phixion

02-11-2004, 01:40 PM

mojo it wasnt directed towards you there were few resp9onses to my previous post that seemed, 'over zealous'. and yeah as your stated there were air bombings, and im actually cool with that. bombing is fine wiht me cause you have to have damn sophisticated equipment to take down our shit, but once you put people on the ground all it takes is bullet to kill them. if we had simply bombed the shit out of iraq i wouldnt have had a problem with it. its the ground troops i have quarrels with.

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Reephdweller

02-11-2004, 04:26 PM

mojo it wasnt directed towards you there were few resp9onses to my previous post that seemed, 'over zealous'.

If you're referring to my response then you're wrong. I was certain we committed ground troops under Clinton but I wasn't 100% positive, so I was stating that in my response. I was at work and I didn't have the time to look over whether he did or not.

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02-11-2004, 06:00 PM

Interesting points from AP article on the subject of Bush's Miltary Service:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32321-2004Feb11.html

There were 13 pages of records released of Miltary Records

Records don't show that Bush was paid for any service from May to September. The AP talked to a Lt Col. that says the National Guard members don't have to attend monthly training but must get in the required hours over the course of the year.

The other point is the person who said he didn't see Bush on the base, Retired Brig. Gen. William Turnipseed, now says he not even sure if he was on the base at the time Bush was assigned there.
The quote from the Retired Brig Gen is: "In 1972, I didn't even know he was supposed to come. I didn't know that until 2000. I'm not saying that he wasn't there. If he said he was there, I believe it. I don't remember seeing him."

NewYorkDragons80

02-11-2004, 06:15 PM

Phixion made it clear that he was fuzzy on whether or not Clinton sent in ground troops. Some people still pounced on him. Mojo, you were not among them, but there were some who did.

The whole AWOL shit is utter non-sense. It's pretty clear that Bush served his time in the ANG and made up for the lapses at a later date. If I were a Democrat, which I am obviously not, I would be getting Bush on why he was in the guard and not the Air Force. It's a tangible, valid argument to make. From the records I've seen, his performance as a pilot was very good, so why don't liberals ask why Bush did not apply these talents to the Viet Cong? Instead of focusing on stupid blocs of time, there is a much broader, more valid weakness of George W Bush. Bitching about a few months just makes you sound petty.

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Yerdaddy

02-11-2004, 06:49 PM

The whole AWOL shit is utter non-sense. It's pretty clear that Bush served his time in the ANG and made up for the lapses at a later date.

But if the documents aren't definitive, and nobody remembers him, what's so convincing to you?

And I think it's more than just about where Bush was, but whether he's misrepresenting his service. Like Clinton's problem wasn't so much the blowjob, but the lying about it.

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Se7en

02-11-2004, 06:58 PM

Evidently? Evidently!? Why don't you actually look at what the released and find out what they mean before writing us off as partisan hacks.

Why are your panties in a twist?

1.) You're reading some sort of bizarre meaning into my use of the word "evidently". I was using it in the sentence as a synonym for "apparently". As in, "Apparently the White House released documents....."

2.) I asked a valid question, and even through out a shitload of qualifiers. IF the documents are accurate, IF the documents partially exonerate Bush. Supposing they did, I had valid question - would that be enough for some people? Or would they go along party lines.

Yerdaddy gave me a pretty straightforward answer. Mojo too.

But in general, about this issue......doesn't anyone else appreciate the irony in this whole situation?

The LAST time we had a military hero who was injured in action facing off with an opponent with a, you know, ACTUAL military service problem, the service didn't seem to be ANYTHING resembling an issue.

But it is now.

I've said it before here, but the parallels between Bush & Clinton are just fucking stacking up. They're like bizarre Earth-2 opposites.

But ultimately, I don't think this issue will matter. Bush's service problems won't matter too much in the long run because we're at a point in our nation where military service isn't a prerequisite for the Presidency, and Kerry's military service will probably be mitigated by his anti-war statements back then and now. The end result - probably a zero-sum game. People will still make their choice based upon the issues and not shit like this.

This is pretty much just early-campaign mudslinging, and if this is the sort of brutal, bloody campaign we have to look forward too for the next several months it's going to be a very long, trying year.

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Tazz

02-11-2004, 07:09 PM

42nd-delay

02-11-2004, 08:17 PM

Why do people continue to attack Bush's service in the ANG? Thousands of people did what they could to avoid going to war. He was just another one.

Do you want me to believe that he knew at that time that he would go on to become governor of Texas and then President? Should he have known this and gone to Vietnam for that reason only? Please. he did what anyone would do in that situation.

His avoidance of Vietnam isn't really the issue here, his skipping out on National Guard service is. The right thing to do would have been to fulfill his National Guard service, as it would have been for anyone in the Guard whether they became President or not. And this whole thing is really about whether he's telling the truth about what happened. And from their scrambling, it seems like the admin has something to hide.

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NewYorkDragons80

02-12-2004, 08:05 AM

But if the documents aren't definitive, and nobody remembers him, what's so convincing to you?

And I think it's more than just about where Bush was, but whether he's misrepresenting his service. Like Clinton's problem wasn't so much the blowjob, but the lying about it.
I guess you're right, but it seems like it's going nowhere. Meanwhile, if you want to nail Bush on his service record, a much more practical way would be to attack him for being in the ANG and noth the USAF in the first place.

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CaptClown

02-12-2004, 08:32 AM

It's not like he had someone buried in Arlington for a campaign contribution.

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TheMojoPin

02-12-2004, 10:03 AM

What does that have to do with a president's military service record?

Oh, right, nothing.

Clinton has a mountain of flaws and wrongdoings. Surely you can find one more on-topic than THAT.

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Se7en

02-12-2004, 11:43 AM

If Kerry REALLY intends to rest upon his military record, he's going to have to deal with questions about his own activities following the war.

Stuff like this. (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/bs20040211.shtml)

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Yerdaddy

02-12-2004, 12:27 PM

he's going to have to deal with questions about his own activities following the war.

Stuff like this.

Not as long as it stays on freakishly conservative sites like Townhall.com, source of such luminaries as Ann Coulter.

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Se7en

02-12-2004, 12:31 PM

Don't believe I gave a disclaimer that it was a totally UNBIASED link.

But you're not naive. You know that if Kerry & the Democrats press the Bush service record for much longer, this sort of thing is going to get thrown right back at them, and it's going to damage them.

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Yerdaddy

02-12-2004, 12:38 PM

Everything that Kerry has said or done is going to be sought out and spun and thrown at him. That's national politics in the US. But Kerry doesn' have to respond to shit from the extreme right press any more than Bush has to respond to The Nation or Z Magazine. These sources only appeal to the extremists and have little effect on swing voters. Once it goes in the mainstream press, then they have to deal with it.

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CaptClown

02-12-2004, 12:39 PM

What does that have to do with a president's military service record?

Not a damn thing
Oh, right, nothing.

Clinton has a mountain of flaws and wrongdoings. Surely you can find one more on-topic than THAT.

You're right! Not a damn thing. A brother can't even de-rail a thread about a non-issue? I could probably bs a logical answer, but I am under the influence of Theraflu.

A couple of quick questions.
1.) Since Turpinseed doesn't remember Bush being there and doesn't remember being there himself around that time, how can he be the authority on whether or not Bush was there or not?

2.) Were either of those units called up to go to Vietnam? If they weren't federalized, how can Bush be declared AWOL if he was never on actually on duty?

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This message was edited by CaptClown on 2-12-04 @ 4:42 PM

Yerdaddy

02-12-2004, 12:52 PM

1.) Since Turpinseed doesn't remember Bush being there and doesn't remember being there himself around that time, how can he be the authority on whether or not Bush was there or not?

He didn't say he didn't remember being there himself, that's the ambigous use of pronouns by Bo, (whoever that is).

2.) Were either of those units called up to go to Vietnam? If they weren't federalized, how can Bush be declared AWOL if he was never on actually on duty?
I don't know.

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CaptClown

02-12-2004, 01:13 PM

He didn't say he didn't remember being there himself, that's the ambigous use of pronouns by Bo, (whoever that is).
Actually that is a quote he took out of this story (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32321-2004Feb11.html). It's pretty accurate.

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Yerdaddy

02-12-2004, 01:29 PM

OK, I got the quote now. Fuck it! Dig up Turnipseed's files too! Dig up all your fucking files!

I don't get why you're saying Turpinseed is the final word though. In terms of personal recollection of Bush being there, nobody's come forward saying they remember him, not just the CO. But that's also only a part of what's going to settle the question. The rest is going to be in the records.

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CaptClown

02-12-2004, 01:37 PM

Because he was the one supposedly the CO at the time and he gets partially quoted the most about this. Peoples memories can be extremely shoddy if you don't make an impression on them.

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NewYorkDragons80

02-12-2004, 03:34 PM

Those particular articles may exagerrate, but I think mainstream America sees or will see Kerry's anti-Vietnam record in a negative light. As much as those who protest war hate to admit it, picketers embolden the enemy. Giap admitted that the protests following the Tet offensive brought about a new resolve among the otherwise demoralized Communists. I'm not saying anyone's freedom of assembly should be vilated, but I do think it should be an issue if they run for public office.

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Doomstone

02-12-2004, 03:44 PM

Interesting story from the Memphis Flyer:

BUSH A NO-SHOW AT ALABAMA BASE, SAYS MEMPHIAN (http://www.memphisflyer.com/content.asp?ID=2834&onthefly=1)

Recalls Memphian Mintz, now 63: "I remember that I heard someone was coming to drill with us from Texas. And it was implied that it was somebody with political influence. I was a young bachelor then. I was looking for somebody to prowl around with." But, says Mintz, that "somebody" -- better known to the world now as the president of the United States -- never showed up at Dannelly in 1972. Nor in 1973, nor at any time that Mintz, a FedEx pilot now and an Eastern Airlines pilot then, when he was a reserve first lieutenant at Dannelly, can remember.

"And I was looking for him," repeated Mintz, who said that he assumed that Bush "changed his mind and went somewhere else" to do his substitute drill.

"There's no way we wouldn't have noticed a strange rooster in the henhouse, especially since we were looking for him," insists Mintz, who has pored over documents relating to the matter now making their way around the Internet.

....Though some accounts reckon the total personnel component of the 187th as consisting of several hundred, the actual flying squadron - that to which Bush was reassigned - number only "25 to 30 pilots," Mintz said. "There's no doubt. I would have heard of him, seen him, whatever."

Also, from today's USA Today:

Ex-officer: Bush file's details caused concern (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-02-11-bush-guard-usat_x.htm)

As Texas Gov. George W. Bush prepared to run for president in the late 1990s, top-ranking Texas National Guard officers and Bush advisers discussed ways to limit the release of potentially embarrassing details from Bush's military records, a former senior officer of the Texas Guard said Wednesday.

A second former Texas Guard official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, was told by a participant that commanders and Bush advisers were particularly worried about mentions in the records of arrests of Bush before he joined the National Guard in 1968, the second official said.

Bill Burkett, then a top adviser to the state Guard commander, said he overheard conversations in which superiors discussed "cleansing" the file of damaging information.

This is a good read as well:

George W. Bush's Lost Year in 1972 Alabama (http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_5089.shtml)

[quote]
Bush avoided Vietnam by using family connections to move ahead in line for acceptance into the National Guard in Texas, where he was assigned to train as a pilot on the F-102 Delta Dagger, a plane the military had schedule for the scrap heap. It never made into service during Vietnam, which guaranteed Bush would never have to go himself.

That May, Bush first requested a transfer from his Texas unit to the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron at Maxwell Air Force Base, a postal unit, after he had already moved to Alabama to work on Blount's campaign. The transfer was approved by his superiors in Houston, after the fact, but ultimately denied up the chain of command, since the unit only met one weekend night a month and had no airplanes. Bush was finally approved for a transfer on Sept. 5, five months after he had already established a residence in Alabama, to the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group in Montgomery. His orders, available on the Net, required him to report to the unit commander, Gen. William Turnipseed. He is named in the orders.

In interviews with the Boston Globe in 2000, Turnipseed and his administrative officer in 1972, Kenneth K. Lott, said they had no memory of Bush ever reporting, and could produce no documentation that he ever even checked in.

''Had he reported in, I would have had some recall, and I do not,'' Turnipseed said. ''I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered.''

In a follow-up interview, Turnipseed acted like he wished the

TheMojoPin

02-12-2004, 07:57 PM

People LOVE to ask "what 'right' do protesters have to protest the war?!?"

I think if anyone has that "right, it's John Kerry. His statements and actions against the Vietnam War after his service there shouldn't be a huge issue.

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A.J.

02-13-2004, 12:21 PM

I think if anyone has that "right, it's John Kerry. His statements and actions against the Vietnam War after his service there shouldn't be a huge issue.

True, but if you're going to hurl your medals over the White House fence just make sure they're YOUR medals -- not someone else's.

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NewYorkDragons80

02-13-2004, 08:20 PM

I disagree. I can prove that his testimony before Congress had no less than 3 deliberate inaccuracies, but the bigger issue is: If he saw such atrocities, what did he do to stop them? Furthermore, his protests of the war highlight his political views. To say that a politician should not be judged based on political action and the consequences of that action is a little nutty, Nutty McNutterson.

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TheMojoPin

02-13-2004, 09:23 PM

Of course the man's politics need to be examined. But the talk is like his protesting somehow "negated" his experience actually fighting IN the war, or his role as a veteran.

And careful about some of those talked-about "inaccuracies"... (http://www.spinsanity.com/) (Scroll to the second story)

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 2-14-04 @ 1:24 AM

NewYorkDragons80

02-14-2004, 09:02 AM

It doesn't negate his service, but it certainly should be an issue in November.

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curtoid

02-14-2004, 09:25 AM

While everyone has a right to protest whatever he or she believes is wrong in the world, the protesters whose opinions I respect the most are those that have been "to the other side" and come back to report their mistakes.

Kerry's service to this country, and then bravery to return and denounce what was going on, I believe makes him a rounded, thoughtful individual whose first hand observations on the many different complex angles of that time merit attention. To now begin throwing mud at him shows a certain desperation and disrespect and only further cements his critics as hypocrites, in my opinion.

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NewYorkDragons80

02-14-2004, 09:36 AM

I'm not even talking about those specific quotes. This was stuff I found when I sat down and read the transcript of his testimony last summer.

We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by the flag, and blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties
Of all Americans killed in Vietnam, 12% were black. The percentage of black Americans who were of military age during the Vietnam War was about 13.5% This is the type of propaganda that was completely false and somehow crept its way into mainstream thinking, thanks to people like John Kerry. Blacks and Vietnam (http://www.archives.gov/research_room/research_topics/vietnam_war_casualty_lists/statistics.html#race)

We watched the United States falsification of body counts
At the conclusion of the Vietnam War, the Allied estimates of VC and NVA body-count totalled about 500,000 kia. In 1995 North Vietnamese Defense Minister Vo Nguyen Giap admitted that this number was 1.1 million. Vietnam War Statistics (http://vietnamresearch.com/history/stats.html)

Kerry's Testimony (http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Manifestos/VVAW_Kerry_Senate.html)

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TheMojoPin

02-14-2004, 10:26 AM

NYD's brought up two very good points.

Can anyone discount them?

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Doomstone

02-14-2004, 01:19 PM

"We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by our flag, and blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties." - John F. Kerry, April 23, 1971

As best as I can tell, this statement is absolutely true.

According to this table (https://www.dmdc.osd.mil/ids/archive/vietnam/table4.htm) from the Defense Manpower Data Center, blacks accounted for 306,722 of the 2,718,792 enlisted in the Vietnam War, or 11.3%. According to the government archives site linked to by above NewYorkDragons, blacks accounted for 7,264 of the 58,193 casualties, a rate of 12.5%.

So:

Enlisted black military: 11.3%
Black casualties: 12.5%

Caucasians, on the other hand, accounted for 87.9% of the service population, but only 86.1% of casualties.

Now from the American War Library (http://members.aol.com/WarLibrary/vwc10.htm)

Of all enlisted men who died in V'nam, blacks made up 14.1% of the total. This came at a time when they made up 11.0% of the young male population nationwide. If we add officer casualties to enlisted then the black percentage is reduced to 12.5% of all casualties.


So finally:

Young male black population in America: 11%
Enlisted black military: 11.3%
Black casualties: 12.5%

This site also notes that black casualty rates were much higher in the early parts of the war:

Early in the war, when blacks made up about 11.0% of our V'nam force, black casualties soared to over 20% of the total (1965, 1966). Black leaders protested and Pres Johnson ordered that black participation should be cut back in the combat units. As a result, the black casualty rate was cut to 11.5% by 1969

So by the time Kerry made his speech in 1971, it looks like the rate of black casualties was more in line with the rate of enlisted black personnel, but due to the extraordinarily high rate of black casualties in the mid 60's, the overall rate was still higher than other races.

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NewYorkDragons80

02-14-2004, 01:48 PM

Kerry is still charging that casualties were at least 36% higher than even by your biggest estimate (14.1%). I think I have pretty reliable sources, and yours seem to be less reliable. However, I'll still give you the benfit of the doubt. Let's say KIA was 14.1%, enlisted-age black men were 11%, and the number serving was 11.3%. Would you agree that Kerry was trying to project the American strategy as one in which blacks were disproportionately thrown at the enemy?

Even with the most favorable numbers at your disposal, blacks were 2.8% more likely to die and .3% more likely to serve. Most importantly, none of the numbers you provided support Kerry's claim.

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Doomstone

02-14-2004, 02:01 PM

Kerry is still charging that casualties were at least 36% higher than even by your biggest estimate (14.1%).
No, he isn't. He said "blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties." I have shown this to be accurate.

I think I have pretty reliable sources, and yours seem to be less reliable.
Evidence?

However, I'll still give you the benfit of the doubt. Let's say KIA was 14.1%, enlisted-age black men were 11%, and the number serving was 11.3%. Would you agree that Kerry was trying to project the American strategy as one in which blacks were disproportionately thrown at the enemy?
Kerry said "blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties." This was a truthful statement.

Even with the most favorable numbers at your disposal, blacks were 2.8% more likely to die and .3% more likely to serve. Most importantly, none of the numbers you provided support Kerry's claim.
Keep saying it, maybe someone will believe you.

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NewYorkDragons80

02-14-2004, 02:06 PM

In order to contribute to the "Highest Number of Casualties", blacks would have to account for at least 50.00000000000000000001% of casualties. By your own claims, the numbers fall well short of this.

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Doomstone

02-14-2004, 02:12 PM

In order to contribute to the "Highest Number of Casualties", blacks would have to account for at least 50.00000000000000000001% of casualties. By your own claims, the numbers fall well short of this.

Sure, but he didn't say "highest number of casualties", he said "highest percentage of casualties." Now you're putting words in the man's mouth. For shame.

Here, let me simplify:

Percentage of casualties among blacks serving in Vietnam: 2.36

Percentage of casualties among whites serving in Vietnam: 2.09

2.36>2.09

Kerry's quote = true

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TheMojoPin

02-14-2004, 03:01 PM

Wow, good analysis, Doomstone. Color me impressed.

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Se7en

02-16-2004, 09:02 PM

"We certainly do not need something as complex and emotional as Vietnam reduced to simple campaign rhetoric." -- John Kerry, 1992

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ronjock58

02-17-2004, 01:08 PM

I was born in 1961 the last of six children. Our father was a truck driver. My older brother enlisted in 1967, after losing his college scholarship, along with his draft deferment. He figured with two years of college he could fly helicopters with a better chance of survival than a draftee infantryman.

My next door neighbor who was turning eighteen used to watch the evening news at our house when the draft lottery numbers were being announced. He boasted about intentionally committing an assault in boot camp to recieve jail time instead of taking his chances in Vietnam.

My best friends' father was in a National Guard unit with six Washington Senators. I am sure that their positions in the Guard had nothing to do with their employer.

Everyone who lived through this time realizes that George Bush utilized family connections to get in the Guard. Bill Clinton pulled any string he could grab to extend his college deferment. Al Gore did not see any hazardous duty. Dan Quayle was a National Guard hometown hero. John Kerry served honorably and then came home to call his brothers in arms psycopathic baby killers.

Personally I don't think anyone, except John McCain, between the ages of 30 and70 is fit to be President.

high fly

02-17-2004, 02:47 PM

I just checked my copy of Stolen Valor, by B.G. Burkett. He has some interesting stats.
He says on page 454 "During the ten year period of the war, 7,257 African-Americans died in Vietnam, or 12.5 percent of the KIAs, slightly under their proportion in the population of draft-aged males. (Eighty-six percent of those killed were Caucasian; 1.5 percent were of other races.) An examination of the casualty records indicates that the highest rate for black servicemen was 16 percent in 1965, and almost all of those killed were volunteersin elite units, not reluctant draftees involuntarily assigned to combat units. Black casualty rates dipped under their proportion in the population in most other years. In 1969, the war's peak, black deaths accounted for 11.4 percent of the total."

In the appendix, he has:
"The percentage of black casualties to total casualties in the war years: 1962 (1.8 percent);
1963 (4.2 percent);
1964 (5.8 percent);
1965 (14.4 percent);
1966 (16.3 percent);
1967 (12.5 percent);
1968 (13.2 percent);
1969 (11.4 percent);
1970 (11.04 percent);
1971 (11.4 percent);
1972 (10.1 percent);
1973 (2.4 percent);
1974 ( 1.6 percent);
1975 (4.4 percent).

Chapter 19 of the book covers how some of the misinformation got out there.

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

Furtherman

07-09-2004, 07:36 AM

Oh, what a tragic mistake.

Bush Military Service Files Were Destroyed - Report (http://cnn.aimtoday.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-RTO-rontz&idq=/ff/story/0002%2F20040709%2F0645031861.htm&sc=rontz&photoid=20040707MISW108)

How convenient!

The Pentagon says military records related to President Bush's service in the National Guard more than 30 years ago were inadvertently destroyed, The New York Times reported on Friday.

<IMG SRC="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=7">
...with thanks to JustJon

This message was edited by Furtherman on 7-9-04 @ 11:36 AM

TheMojoPin

07-09-2004, 08:09 AM

Just like Lee Harvey Oswald's!

Imagine that!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

LiquidCourage

07-09-2004, 09:19 AM

Just a little update, the present day term is UA- Unauthorized Absence. AWOL is just from the old days and in movies.

curtoid

07-09-2004, 09:27 AM

Can you imagine the outrage from the right if this had been Clinton? What are the odds that all information regarding the CIA leak was also destroyed.

http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v64/curtoid/44.jpg

"Don't believe everything you read on message boards." - RB

Yerdaddy

07-09-2004, 09:29 AM

I believe the current term is "driving that train, high on cocaine."

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

Tazz

07-09-2004, 09:30 AM

Who cares? Wasn't that all settled last year anyway?

If you want t copy, go ask Michael Moore. He obviously has his own, and may lend them to you after he is done batching to them.

<img src=http://tazz1376.homestead.com/files/homersig.gif>

Furtherman

07-09-2004, 09:36 AM

That's right, who cares? This does nothing to his presidental character.

<IMG SRC="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=7">
...with thanks to JustJon

golfcourseguy

07-09-2004, 12:28 PM

The Pentagon says military records related to President Bush's service in the National Guard more than 30 years ago were inadvertently destroyed, The New York Times reported on Friday.

See, it does help to have a coalition of the willing.

" editing posts since day one"

This message was edited by golfcourseguy on 7-9-04 @ 4:31 PM

TheMojoPin

07-09-2004, 02:46 PM

Who cares? Wasn't that all settled last year anyway?

I think that's what the administration was hoping the public would remembered happened.

In a short answer...no.

The GOP played diversion and got everyone worked up over whether or not Kerry "tossed his medals," and the fickle media moved off of the Bush Guard issue, despite their "outrageous liberal bias."

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

FUNKMAN

09-05-2004, 06:47 PM

maybe he was in rehab... the booze was getting the best of him.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/SatCam/sig_funkmanstill.jpg">

furie

09-05-2004, 07:12 PM

it's the military. records get lost.

are all of these people now to be considered AWOL? (http://www.archives.gov/facilities/mo/st_louis/military_personnel_records/fire_1973.html)

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rfsigs/FuturamaRush.jpg">
<marquee>"All right! It's Saturday night, I have no date, a two liter bottle of Shasta and my all Rush mix tape, let's rock!"
</marquee>
<a href="http://fallingtowardsapotheosis.blogspot.com/">mental vomit</a>

TheMojoPin

09-05-2004, 07:21 PM

Hey, if it happened to Lee Harvey Oswald, it can happen to ANYONE!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

furie

09-05-2004, 07:23 PM

exactly

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rfsigs/FuturamaRush.jpg">
<marquee>"All right! It's Saturday night, I have no date, a two liter bottle of Shasta and my all Rush mix tape, let's rock!"
</marquee>
<a href="http://fallingtowardsapotheosis.blogspot.com/">mental vomit</a>

FUNKMAN

09-05-2004, 07:24 PM

how conveniant!

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/SatCam/sig_funkmanstill.jpg">

Teenweek

09-08-2004, 11:09 AM

Why is this being brought up again. Didn't we deal with this issue in the beginning of the year.

Here we go again (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=559273)

This message was edited by Teenweek on 9-8-04 @ 3:14 PM

42nd-delay

09-08-2004, 04:29 PM

HBox

09-08-2004, 04:31 PM

WHO FUCKING CARES!!!!!!

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

SeventySix

09-08-2004, 05:15 PM

The same people pissing about Bush's papers don't give a shit about Kerry hiding his medical records concerning his purple hearts. Those papers reportedly show that two of the three injuries were very minor. They also ignore that he wrote up the requests for his medals and also got released 4 MONTHS after he was sent over.

Also, any else notice he had a friggin movie crew following him around? Who else but Elvis has that much friggin video of himself durring a war?

Brian

42nd-delay

09-08-2004, 09:33 PM

I don't really care, just answering why it's been brought up again.

------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

A.J.

09-09-2004, 04:55 AM

Didn't we deal with this issue in the beginning of the year.

It was dealt with during the 2000 campaign -- as were the coke rumors.

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A Skidmark/canofsoup15 production.

Red Sox Nation

LiquidCourage

09-09-2004, 09:20 AM

There's no such charge as AWOL damn it!
It's just some crap from movies. The correct term is 'UA', or Unauthorized Absence.

El Mudo

09-10-2004, 09:34 AM

There's also been these new developments:

More documents found -
eventhough there weren't supposed to be anymore (http://olympics.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?
type=politicsNews&storyID=6177166)

"Bush fell well short of meeting
his military obligation..." (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/09/08/
bush_fell_short_on_duty_at_guard/)

------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

This message was edited by 42nd-delay on 9-8-04 @ 8:29 PM

Uh Oh!!

Looks like those documents may have been forgeries..... (http://ap.washingtontimes.com/dynamic/stories/B/BUSH_GUARD_QUESTIONS?SITE=DCTMS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software. Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, pointed to a superscript - a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" - as evidence indicating forgery.

"I'm virtually certain these were computer generated," Lines said after reviewing copies of the documents at her office in Paradise Valley, Ariz. She produced a nearly identical document using her computer's Microsoft Word software.

DOH!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/guests/elm_sig.gif
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Thanks Monsterone!!

TheMojoPin

09-10-2004, 10:44 AM

Why in God's name would a memo like that even be typed up in the first place?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

sleepyeyed_Jynx

09-10-2004, 11:29 AM

Why in God's name would a memo like that even be typed up in the first place?

Because perhaps it never existed.

Bush: Cheney, they're on to us! What do we do?!
Cheney: Hmmm....Monday Night Football is back, let's have Janet Jackson do another performance at a halftime show to buy some time.

Jesus - The Source of my Strength!
<IMG SRC="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v256/sleepyeyed_jynx/sig8.jpg">
<marquee>"The Revolution will not be televised!"</marquee>
"The first casualty of War, is Truth!" - James Enthume

Yerdaddy

09-10-2004, 11:30 AM

Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software. Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences,
<a href="http://www.publicintegrity.org/527/docs/9557463.pdf" target="_blank">...and, by the way, is a doner to a Republican PAC...</a> a fact that, shocker, the Washington "I'm Christ reincarnated, Moon" Times forgot to mention.

I'll take independent varification that someone in the Defense Department forged 1972 anti-Bush documents on Microsoft Word, for $800, Alex.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

angrymissy

09-10-2004, 12:07 PM

expert document examiner my ass.

<a href="http://www.fact-index.com/i/ib/ibm_selectric_typewriter.html"> This is one of many typerwriters out in that era that could have typed that document, and the White House has already said the docs are authentic. </a>

 <img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/missy2.gif" width="300" height="100" border="1">

HBox

09-10-2004, 12:32 PM

curtoid

09-10-2004, 01:10 PM

Why is this being brought up again.

Where were you this last August?

Oh yeah...

Now that a real American hero calls Kerry a pussy and a liar, than that is what he is. Bob Dole actually earned his purple heart. Kerry not only bled for his 3 purple hearts he did not even get a bloody nose.

George W. Bush's Military Service Timeline

May 28, 1968: Bush enlists as an Airman Basic in the 147th Fighter-Interceptor Group, Ellington Air Force Base, Houston, and is selected to attend pilot training.

July 12, 1968: A three-member board of officers decides that Bush should get a direct commission as a second lieutenant after competing airman's basic training.

July 14 - Aug. 25, 1968: Bush attends six weeks of basic training at Lackland Air Force Base, Texas.

Sept. 4, 1968: Bush is commissioned a second lieutenant and takes an 8-week leave to work on a Senate campaign in Florida.

Nov. 25, 1968 - Nov. 28, 1969: Bush attends and graduates from flight school at Moody Air Force Base, Georgia.

December 1969 - June 27, 1970: Bush trains full-time to be an F-102 pilot at Ellington Air Force Base.

July 1970 - April 16, 1972: Bush, as a certified fighter pilot, attends frequent drills and alerts at Ellington.

May 24, 1972: Bush, who has moved to Alabama to work on a US Senate race, gets permission to serve with a reserve unit in Alabama. But headquarters decided Bush must serve with a more active unit.

Sept. 5, 1972: Bush is granted permission to do his Guard duty at the 187th Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery. But Bush's record shows no evidence he did the duty, and the unit commander says he never showed up.

November 1972 - April 30, 1973: Bush returns to Houston, but apparently not to his Air Force unit.

May 2, 1973: The two lieutenant colonels in charge of Bush's unit in Houston cannot rate him for the prior 12 months, saying he has not been at the unit in that period.

May - July 1973: Bush, after special orders are issued for him to report for duty, logs 36 days of duty.

July 30, 1973: His last day in uniform, according to his records.

Oct. 1, 1973: A month after Bush starts at Harvard Business School, he is formally discharged from the Texas Air National Guard -- eight months before his six-year term expires.

Compiled from The Boston Globe, "One-year gap in Bush's National Guard duty," May 23, 2000.

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"Don't believe everything you read on message boards." - RB

Yerdaddy

09-10-2004, 01:15 PM

I knew there wasn't going to be a serious discussion of the issues this year, but I never thought it would devolve into a debate on 1970s era typewriters and typography. There truly are no words.

Was that color font available in html on 9-10-04 @ 4:32 PM????? Get me Pat Buchanan's forensics people STAT!!!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

HBox

09-10-2004, 01:17 PM

I denounce all forgeries. They're bad for the system, and I call on all of you to join in denouncing forgeries of all kinds.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

CaptClown

09-10-2004, 03:30 PM

Who the hell has a PO Box number like 34567. THat's like giving someone a phone number like 765- 4321.

If you see a honey by strobe light
Black I hope you have good sight...

This message was edited by CaptClown on 9-10-04 @ 7:31 PM

HBox

09-10-2004, 03:44 PM

http://www.wfu.edu/users/joyela2/darkhelmet.jpg

"So the combination is one, two, three, four, five? That's the stupidest combination I've ever heard in my life! The kind of thing an idiot would have on his luggage!"

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

El Mudo

09-10-2004, 06:59 PM

Se7en

09-11-2004, 04:54 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/cerebus/MSrather.jpg

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/7_sig.gif" width="300" height="100">
 
 
Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos.
I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>

TheMojoPin

09-11-2004, 05:30 PM

Alright, THAT was funny.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

furie

09-16-2004, 05:00 PM

http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/Pics/msforger.jpg (http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/005093.php)

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rfsigs/FuturamaRush.jpg">
<marquee>"All right! It's Saturday night, I have no date, a two liter bottle of Shasta and my all Rush mix tape, let's rock!"
</marquee>
<a href="http://fallingtowardsapotheosis.blogspot.com/">mental vomit</a>

TheMojoPin

09-20-2004, 08:34 AM

This just in about 10 minutes ago...

CBS News plans to issue a statement, perhaps as early as today, saying that it was misled on the purported National Guard memos the network used to charge that President Bush received favored treatment 30 years ago. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6052080/)

So, in short, they can't prove the documents are authentic. This is some super-sloppy journalism here, and they should be rightly embarassed.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

Yerdaddy

09-20-2004, 09:12 AM

...and, by the way, is a doner to a Republican PAC... a fact that, shocker, the Washington "I'm Christ reincarnated, Moon" Times forgot to mention.

That story is from the AP.....If you would look at the article and actually have read it and not just saw the words "washington times" in the hyperlink and ripped it, the article was written by a reporter from the Associated Press...

It was even on the front page of the Post this morning...

And now

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12809-2004Sep10.html

And besides...Moon doesn't edit the paper...Wesley Pruden does...Moon just owns the company, which means basically that he gets free advertising space....
Except that Moon has declared from the time he started the Washington Times that he created it to serve his conservative agenda as part of his crazy agenda for America and South Korea to dominate the world and to be recognized as the second coming of Christ. That's not a normal ownership situation. It is not an objective newspaper. It gets things right sometimes, but on the whole it's objective is clearly in line with Moon's statements.

And the AP is a news outlet which serves stories to thousands of news sources. This shitty story about a republican expert clearing a republican president WAS NOT OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. But the story served the papers that bought it, like the Washington Times, until there was independent verification from real news organizations like the Washington Post.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

silera

09-20-2004, 09:32 AM

Bush didn't go to vietnam because he was lucky enough to be the son of an important person. It's that plain and simple. That the media and special interests have turned this fact into a viscious attack on John Kerry's actual fucking war record is disgusting. Further disgusting is that in effect, I don't care about Bush's service or lack thereof to this country 30 years ago. I care about how over the last 4 years, his administration has managed a net loss of 964,000 jobs, a deficit they plan to correct with another tax cut, and a war they plan to win with optimism and hope.

I care that the only values his administration seems to want to protect are the values that their religion have deemed important, and the value of their own fortunes. Freedom of speech is apparently a priviledge only preserved for those that do not disagree.

The best part is that any dissent, or questioning regarding the current state of events, because of 9-11, is immediately dismissed as "left" "liberal" and "anti american." That alone makes me accutely aware that the attacks on 9-11 accomplished their intent.

<center>http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/silerass.jpg
AND WHAT?</center>

CaptClown

09-20-2004, 04:45 PM

Except that Moon has declared from the time he started the Washington Times that he created it to serve his conservative agenda as part of his crazy agenda for America and South Korea to dominate the world and to be recognized as the second coming of Christ. That's not a normal ownership situation. It is not an objective newspaper. It gets things right sometimes, but on the whole it's objective is clearly in line with Moon's statements.

And the AP is a news outlet which serves stories to thousands of news sources. This shitty story about a republican expert clearing a republican president WAS NOT OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. But the story served the papers that bought it, like the Washington Times, until there was independent verification from real news organizations like the Washington Post.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Some of the evidence was pretty obvious.

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army
Poison Clan rocks the world

reeshy

09-20-2004, 04:52 PM

Bush didn't go to vietnam because he was lucky enough to be the son of an important person

I can empathise with that statement....When I was of draft age...I saw alot of my friends getting drafted....we were all lower middle class kids from the Bronx...all of our fathers were working class men....I had 2 choices...run away to Canada (that wasn't really an option)...or join a service where you "thought" you would be safe...I was lucky enough to join the USCG....but I still went to Viet Nam!!!! Go figure!!!!

[center]<IMG SRC="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=reeshy">
[center]

This message was edited by reeshy on 9-20-04 @ 8:55 PM

grandzu

09-20-2004, 05:15 PM

sr71blackbird

09-20-2004, 05:18 PM

Amen Silera!

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<center>My Thanks to Just Jon, Reefdwella, ADF, Yerdaddy,Monsterone and Katylina for the sig-pic help and creation!</center>
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keithy_19

09-20-2004, 05:47 PM

I honestly don't care if you support President Bush or not. But what I don't understand is how people will say that he has nothing in mind to fix the economy and to win the war on terror, while John Kerry has said nothing about what he would do.

I also don't like the fact that John Kerry has not stepped down from his seat in the senate even though he has missed most of if not all the votes in the past two years.

http://64.177.177.182/katylina/lohansig.jpg

Yerdaddy

09-20-2004, 05:59 PM

That's my problem with Bush too - that he has the nerve to campaign. He should step down as president while he's campaigning for the reelection.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

keithy_19

09-20-2004, 06:34 PM

There's a difference. John Kerry has missed his duties. President Bush has still done his job.

http://64.177.177.182/katylina/lohansig.jpg

ADF

09-20-2004, 06:39 PM

I also don't like the fact that John Kerry has not stepped down from his seat in the senate even though he has missed most of if not all the votes in the past two years.

Bush doesn't vote, but just imagine how many votes he would have missed considering how much campaigning he's done and how many vacations he's taken. If I remember correctly, he's taken more vacation time than any other president, no?

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Yerdaddy

09-20-2004, 06:46 PM

There's a difference. John Kerry has missed his duties. President Bush has still done his job.

Define Bush's duties and tell me how he's done them.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

furie

09-20-2004, 06:49 PM

His duty to to be the head of the executive branch, directing all of it's departments (via the department heads) as he see's fit. And he's excurted his control trust me. He's reorganized government more than anyone since FDR.

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rfsigs/uncanny141.jpg">

<a href="http://fallingtowardsapotheosis.blogspot.com/">mental vomit</a>

Se7en

09-20-2004, 07:32 PM

Hey, this is interesting:

CBS tipped off the DNC about the Bush guard story. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&u=/ap/20040921/ap_on_el_pr/cbs_guard_kerry_1&printer=1)

All this for a story the left - and certain members of this board - like to portray as "no big deal" and "obviously true, despite the memos".

The left's Watergate-style electoral scandal. I'm loving it.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/7_sig.gif" width="300" height="100">
 
 
Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos.
I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>

HBox

09-20-2004, 07:36 PM

The left's Watergate-style electoral scandal. I'm loving it.

Yeah, sure. In your dirtiest, sexiest wet dream.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

TheMojoPin

09-20-2004, 08:03 PM

The left's Watergate-style electoral scandal. I'm loving it.

Wait, how is this "the left" or like Watergate?

It's CBS' mess, and they rightfully deserve to get their fingers in the fire. The ABOVE is just ludicrous.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 <> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

Yerdaddy

09-20-2004, 08:17 PM

The left's Watergate-style electoral scandal.

HAAAAAAAAA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

A.J.

09-21-2004, 04:32 AM

If I remember correctly, he's taken more vacation time than any other president, no?

Most of that vacation time is taken when Congress and the Supreme Court are in summer recess.

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silera

09-21-2004, 04:46 AM

Excellent article in Slate that begins with

This week, President Bush and Sen. John Kerry addressed the annual conference of the National Guard Association. Neither man talked about Bush's service in the Guard, and the officers in attendance made clear that they wanted to hear about Iraq, not Vietnam. But one issue leads to the other. Bush's abuse of the Guard in Iraq is what makes his abuse of the Guard during Vietnam an important consideration in this election.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2106833/

That article is indeed excellent.

In short, Bush has pulled Guard troops away from their homeland security duties to fight and die in a war unrelated to the service for which they enlisted. A guardsman who did less than he signed up for is coercing other guardsmen to do more than they signed up for.

Faced with the same decision that Bush had, I'd have taken advantage of every option available to me and wiggled out of Viet Nam. I don't think that's a bad thing. 20 years from now, will there be things I've done in my life that I probably wouldn't do the same? I'm sure there will be.

However, the mistake is not acknowledged. Instead, the campaign, and its supporters choose to lash out and redirect any questioning or consideration of that situation.

From Mathew Chapter 7

1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Words to live by.

<center>http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/silerass.jpg
AND WHAT?</center>