Lying liars who lie

[Doomstone]

<center>http://blogs.salon.com/0001444/images/2003/10/01/bush_scared.jpg</center>

I guess Winston Smith hasn't been doing his job.

From the Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB107638468090025378-search,00.html?collection=autowire%2F30day&vql_string=hitt%3Cin%3E%28article%2Dbody%29)



WASHINGTON -- The White House stepped back from a high-profile assertion by President Bush, in his January 2002 State of the Union Address, that U.S. forces had uncovered evidence of a potential attack against an American nuclear facility.

In the speech, Mr. Bush warned of a terrorist threat to the nation, saying that the U.S. had found "diagrams of American nuclear power plants" in Afghanistan.

Coming just months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks -- and as U.S. forces were on the hunt for al Qaeda in Afghanistan -- the statement was offered as evidence of the depth of antipathy among Islamic extremists, and of "the madness of the destruction they design."

"Our discoveries in Afghanistan confirmed our worst fears," Mr. Bush told Congress and the nation in the televised speech. He said "we have found" diagrams of public water facilities, instructions on how to make chemical arms, maps of U.S. cities and descriptions of U.S. landmarks, in addition to the nuclear-plant plans.

Monday night, the White House defended the warnings about Islamic extremist intentions, but said the concerns highlighted by Mr. Bush were based on intelligence developed before and after the Sept. 11 attacks, and that no plant diagrams were actually found in Afghanistan. "There's no additional basis for the language in the speech that we have found," a senior administration official said.


This was 2002, before all the Iraq bullshit, and only a few months after the 9/11 attacks. There was no reason for this particular lie other than to scare the shit out of the American people. None. The threat from terrorism is real and was real and everyone knew it, and the fact that the administration felt that reality wasn't enough and they needed to exaggerate like they did is very telling. This just goes to show how they've been exploiting the hell out of this terrorism stuff from day 1. Keep the people so afraid that they'll never even think of questioning Dear Leader's actions in fighting the evil terrists who are coming to kill us all!

<center>http://blogs.salon.com/0001444/images/2003/10/01/bush_scared.jpg</center>

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[Heavy]

This was discussed here. (http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/87/Topic/36486/page/War_in_Iraq__Not_a_Humanitarian_Intervention.htm)

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[silera]

The thread you linked was regarding what our reasons are for still being in Iraq.

This thread is about Bush misconstrueing and exagerating evidence prior to invading Iraq.

I don't see the correlation.


<center>http://www.photobucket.com/albums/1003/silera/sig4.gif
<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

This message was edited by silera on 2-11-04 @ 9:26 PM

[Snoogans]

the correlation is wadd is fuckin stupid

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[sr71blackbird]

Have we been attacked on our shores since we have started getting aggressive in that region?

<center>
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<center><B>My Thanks to ADF for the sig-pic!</B></center>

<center><B><strike>Bandwidth Hound</strike></B></center>

<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=1>( o Y o )</marquee>

[silera]

We were lied to.

You're ok with that.

Maybe you shouldn't be.


<center>http://www.photobucket.com/albums/1003/silera/sig4.gif
<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

[sr71blackbird]

I dont know if we were or were not lied to, all I know is what I see. We can complain about it all we want, or cheer it for all we want, either way we can do nothing about it. I dont want to be lied to, I want that part of the world to stop its bullshit and grow up. If being aggresive there makes that happen, so be it. They can be as extreme as they want to be, believe what they want to believe, just dont let them come here and attack us, or they get what they are getting. It seems to be the only thing they understand, swift and decisive punishment. Its unfortunate, but its the rules they themselves choose to live by in their own justice system. Believe me, I wish they would just give it up and accept that the res of the world has different beliefs and respects that diversity. They prosper from our hunger for oil, we reward them with money. Their extremists dont want us there and get mad when we defend our lifestyle and those that choose to sell us what we want. I know I am simplifying it, maybe to an extreme, but in the final analysis, thats what it is. Those that seem to disagree are only disagreeing because they side with the party the president doesnt belong to.

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<center><B><strike>Bandwidth Hound</strike></B></center>

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[ADF]

We hadn't been attacked on our shores since 1812 until a couple of years ago. Your argument holds little to no merit.

<center><img src = "http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/adfblink.gif"><br>I'm so glad the cheat is not dead.</center>

[silera]

Believe me, I wish they would just give it up and accept that the res of the world has different beliefs and respects that diversity.


It works both ways.


<center>http://www.photobucket.com/albums/1003/silera/sig4.gif
<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

[Yerdaddy]

I know I am simplifying it, maybe to an extreme

You are, and you're dragging this thing off topic.

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TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[TheMojoPin]

Have we been attacked on our shores since we have started getting aggressive in that region?

We also weren't attacked in the 18 months between 9/11 and when the invasion actually began.

What accounts for that...wishing really, really, REALLY hard?

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[sr71blackbird]

Like you ALL said, it can go either way. The truth is we weren't attacked since. Now, your hopes are to attack the president, because you disagree with his politics, your arguments are that his actions were either unfounded on credible information or "illegal" despite all these other countries and congress giving the go-ahead. Your all just trying to say that he is a moron, or a liar, or whatever you can so that he doesn't get re-elected. Im not voting either way, so I chose to have no voice. I have given up on this whole bullshit, because its
turned into either idiot party resorting to all these moronic assertions and banal accusations which prevents civilized adult discourse on relevant topics. It makes politics so unappealing that discussion is impossible. Maybe thats your desire.

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<center><B>My Thanks to ADF for the sig-pic!</B></center>

<center><B><strike>Bandwidth Hound</strike></B></center>

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[Yerdaddy]

I have given up on this whole bullshit, because its
turned into either idiot party resorting to all these moronic assertions and banal accusations which prevents civilized adult discourse on relevant topics. It makes politics so unappealing that discussion is impossible. Maybe thats your desire.

"moronic assertions" like that the last two years without an attack on our soil is proof that Bush has solved the terrorism problem, never mind the 8 years between 9-11 and the 1993 WTC bombing, and the 2 centuries before that? Nevermind that al-Qaeda attacks around the rest of the world have increased, despite the president "on the hunt" for Bin Laden?

"moronic assertions" like "It seems to be the only thing they understand, swift and decisive punishment."? Nevermind that nobody has been harder on Muslims than Israel and it hasn't seemed to work too well for them.

"banal accusations" like "Those that seem to disagree are only disagreeing because they side with the party the president doesnt belong to"?

"banal accusations" like "It makes politics so unappealing that discussion is impossible. Maybe thats your desire"?

If you could clear up just one of the plethora of contradictions in your rantings, it should be this one: "I have given up on this whole bullshit." You should actually make that one come true, or you should not make sweeping accusations based on glib generalizations.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
TEAR THE BITCH APART!

[TheMojoPin]

Im not voting either way, so I chose to have no voice. I have given up on this whole bullshit, because its
turned into either idiot party resorting to all these moronic assertions and banal accusations which prevents civilized adult discourse on relevant topics. It makes politics so unappealing that discussion is impossible. Maybe thats your desire.

I'd say "cop-out," but that would disgrace the good name of KOP.

The subject of this thread in the first place, if true, is about as far from "moronic" and "banal" in the first place. But please, don't let us step all over your apathy.

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[high fly]

Haven't checked out the whole thread, and I hope no one has posted this little gem:

BUSH CLAIMS TO HAVE SEEN THE FIRST PLANE HIT THE WTC

We all have seen the footage where the flunky (Rove?) comes in and whispers in the Dubster's ear that the second plane had hit. What the White House doesn't talk much about is Bush seeing the first plane hit.
"I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower- the tv was obviously on, and I used to fly myself, and I said, 'There's one terrible pilot', and I said, 'It must have been a horrible accident'"

At a town hall meeting in Orlando, to a kid, in the Boston Herald, Oct. 22, 2002.

" and they ask me why I drink"
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Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[high fly]

Haven't checked out the whole thread, and I hope no one has posted this little gem:

BUSH CLAIMS TO HAVE SEEN THE FIRST PLANE HIT THE WTC

We all have seen the footage where the flunky (Rove?) comes in and whispers in the Dubster's ear that the second plane had hit. What the White House doesn't talk much about is Bush seeing the first plane hit.
"I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower- the tv was obviously on, and I used to fly myself, and I said, 'There's one terrible pilot', and I said, 'It must have been a horrible accident'"

At a town hall meeting in Orlando, to a kid, in the Boston Herald, Oct. 22, 2002.

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[East Side Dave]

<center>http://blogs.salon.com/0001444/images/2003/10/01/bush_scared.jpg</center>http://blogs.salon.com/0001444/images/2003/10/01/bush_scared.jpg


I hope our next President has two heads.

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This message was edited by East Side Dave on 2-19-04 @ 8:57 PM

[sleepyeyed_Jynx]

Bush is like an abusing husband to the ignorant. He's fucking their lives over, yet they keep telling themselves he's good.

So, should I vote for the coke sniffin' crook? Sure, why not? It'll only lead to our economy going belly up. The jobs we've been promised? I heard the figures would mean we'd need around 400,000 new jobs a month for it to be pulled off. How optimistic...

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[Doomstone]

Insider speaks out about intelligence manipulation (http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/13/news-cooper.php)


After two decades in the U.S. Air Force, Lieutenant Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski, now 43, knew her career as a regional analyst was coming to an end when - in the months leading up to the war in Iraq - she felt she was being "propagandized" by her own bosses.

With master's degrees from Harvard in government and zoology and two books on Saharan Africa to her credit, she found herself transferred in the spring of 2002 to a post as a political/military desk officer at the Defense Department's office for Near East South Asia (NESA), a policy arm of the Pentagon.

Kwiatkowski got there just as war fever was spreading, or being spread as she would later argue, through the halls of Washington. Indeed, shortly after her arrival, a piece of NESA was broken off, expanded and re-dubbed with the Orwellian name of the Office of Special Plans. The OSP's task was, ostensibly, to help the Pentagon develop policy around the Iraq crisis.

She would soon conclude that the OSP - a pet project of Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld - was more akin to a nerve center for what she now calls a "neoconservative coup, a hijacking of the Pentagon."

Though a lifelong conservative, Kwiatkowski found herself appalled as the radical wing of the Bush administration, including her superiors in the Pentagon planning department, bulldozed internal dissent, overlooked its own intelligence and relentlessly pushed for confrontation with Iraq.




[quote]
L.A. WEEKLY: What was the relationship between NESA and the now-notorious Office of Special Plans, the group set up by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and Vice President Cheney? Was the OSP, in reality, an intelligence operation to act as counter to the CIA?

KAREN KWIATKOWSKI: The NESA office includes the Iraq desk, as well as the desks of the rest of the region. It is under Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Bill Luti. When I joined them, in May 2002, the Iraq desk was there. We shared the same space, and we were all part of the same general group. At that time it was expanding. Contractors and employees were coming though it wasn't clear what they were doing.

In August of 2002, the expanded Iraq desk found new spaces and moved into them. It was told to us that this was now to be known as the Office of Special Plans. The Office of Special Plans would take issue with those who say they were doing intelligence. They would say they were developing policy for the Office of the Secretary of Defense for the invasion of Iraq.

But developing policy is not the same as developing propaganda and pushing a particular agenda. And actually, that's more what they really did. They pushed an agenda on Iraq, and they developed pretty sophisticated propaganda lines which were fed throughout government, to the Congress, and even internally to the Pentagon - to try and make this case of immediacy. This case of severe threat to the United States.

...


You believe that decision was made by the time you got there, almost a year before the war?

That decision was made by the time I got there. So there was no debate over WMD, the possible relations Saddam Hussein may have had with terrorist groups and so on. They spent their energy gathering pieces of information and creating a propaganda storyline, which is the same storyline we heard the president and Vice President Cheney tell the American people in the fall of 2002.

The very phrases they used are coming back to haunt them because they are blatantly false and not based on any intelligence. The OSP and the Vice President's Office were critical in this propaganda effort - to convince Americans that there was some just requirement for pre-emptive war.



What do you believe the real reasons were for the war?

The neoconservatives needed to do more than just topple Saddam Hussein. They wanted to put in a government friendly to the U.S., and they wanted permanent basing in Iraq. There are

[A.J.]

So, should I vote for the coke sniffin' crook?


Maybe he sniffs it because he enjoys the fragrance.

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[East Side Dave]

<b><font color=red size=10>THIS IS MY THREE LINE SIG
NO MORE THAN THREE
LINES OF TEXT FOR ME
</b></font>

That's 4 lines I think and that's one to grow on!

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[Def Dave in SC]

Now, your hopes are to attack the president, because you disagree with his politics, your arguments are that his actions were either unfounded on credible information or "illegal" despite all these other countries and congress giving the go-ahead


First, you say that you dont mind being lied to, then you say that they [Arabs] only respond to force, no matter what.

Now you unleash this thought upon us.

Look, I'm a registered republican, and for the first few years of his presidency, I really tried to support Bush. I could see that he wasn't the most qualified guy, but I always tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, seeing as he is the president and all.

I supported him, and he shat all over me. Almost every reason he gave for war was a lie. Slowly, he and Ashcroft (By the way, you should never trust a man who has lost an election to a dead man) whittled away at our 1st and 4th amendment rights.

And "all these countries" you spoke of in reference to Bush's coalition? I don't care what you think, but Albania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Hungary, Italy, Lithuania, Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Palau, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.-led_coalition_against_Iraq#Varying_levels_of_suppo rt) doesn't sound all that impressive.


Please, not for us, but for yourself, get your news from somewhere other than Fox for a few weeks.


Oh, and Doomstone, I don't recall being consulted on that last post of yours. It does not get my seal of approval.

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UCF:AYBABTU

[Doomstone]

<center>http://www.amarillonet.com/images/headlines/022502/rumsfeldLR.jpg

<b>Donald Rumsfeld caught lying </b></center>


CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/face_031404.pdf), via Atrios (http://atrios.blogspot.com/2004_03_14_atrios_archive.html#107930257634742795)



SCHIEFFER: Well, let me just ask you this. If they did not have these weapons of mass destruction, though, granted all of that is true, why then did they pose an immediate threat to us, to this country?

Sec. RUMSFELD: Well, you're the--you and a few other critics are the only people I've heard use the phrase `immediate threat.' I didn't. The president didn't. And it's become kind of folklore that that's--that's what's happened. The president went...

SCHIEFFER: You're saying that nobody in the administration said that.

Sec. RUMSFELD: I--I can't speak for nobody--everybody in the administration and say nobody said that.

SCHIEFFER: Vice president didn't say that? The...

Sec. RUMSFELD: Not--if--if you have any citations, I'd like to see 'em.

Mr. FRIEDMAN: We have one here. It says `some have argued that the nu'--this is you speaking--`that the nuclear threat from Iraq is not imminent, that Saddam is at least five to seven years away from having nuclear weapons. I would not be so certain.'

Sec. RUMSFELD: And--and...

Mr. FRIEDMAN: It was close to imminent.

Sec. RUMSFELD: Well, I've--I've tried to be precise, and I've tried to be accurate. I'm s--suppose I've...

Mr. FRIEDMAN: `No terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world and the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq.'

Sec. RUMSFELD: Mm-hmm. It--my view of--of the situation was that he--he had--we--we believe, the best intelligence that we had and other countries had and that--that we believed and we still do not know--we will know.

[TheMojoPin]

*Article I'm linking to is the second one on the page, so scroll down.*

Bush ad latest attempt to backdate recession (http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2004_03_14_archive.html#1079315235891088 )

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[high fly]

"I just don't think it's the role of the United States to walk into a country and say, 'We do it this way, so should you'."
-------George W. Bush, second presidential debate, 2000

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[Doomstone]

HERE'S A VIDEO OF LYING DONALD RUMSFELD SHAMELESSLY TELLING THE BALDFACED LIE ON NATIONAL TELEVISION THAT I MENTIONED A FEW POSTS UP (http://www.americanprogress.org/atf/cf/%7bE9245FE4-9A2B-43C7-A521-5D6FF2E06E03%7d/RUMSFELDDENY4.WMV)

Watch him stutter

This message was edited by Doomstone on 3-17-04 @ 4:26 PM

[Furtherman]

Presidental Address (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/presaddress2.shtml)

<IMG SRC="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=7">
...with thanks to JustJon

[HBox]

"Trusting in the sanity and restraint of the United States is not a strategy and it is not an option."

"We've begun inoculating troops and first responders against ballistic aiports. And this year, for the first time we must offer every child in America 3 nuclear missiles."

Funny stuff!



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[Doomstone]

Senator Arlen Specter LIES to the American People (once again, via Atrios (http://atrios.blogspot.com/2004_03_21_atrios_archive.html#1079910716685057)):

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0403/21/le.00.html



BLITZER: Well, the 9/11 commission, Senator Specter and Senator Rockefeller, will be hearing testimony this coming week from Clinton administration officials, potentially significant testimony from the former secretary of state, the former national security adviser.

But Richard Clarke also writes this in his new book. He writes: "I think they wanted to believe there was a connection" -- referring to Bush administration officials -- "a connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. But the CIA was sitting there, the FBI was sitting there, I was sitting there, saying, 'We have looked at this issue for years. For years we've looked for a connection, and there's just no connection. There's absolutely no evidence Iraq was supporting al Qaeda.'"

You're the vice chairman of the Intelligence Committee. Was there evidence -- and you brought in Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, that name just a little while ago, widely associated with Ansar al-Islam, believed to be associated in some way with al Qaeda. Isn't that a connection between Saddam Hussein's regime and al Qaeda?

ROCKEFELLER: No, in that he was up in that Kurdish area, Ansar al-Islam, which was not under the control of Saddam Hussein.

He now has connections with al Qaeda. He might have had temporary connections with al Qaeda then. Now he has a lot of them. In other words, that's what not finding WMD, not finding, you know, terrorism, not finding a variety of things that the president said, this is the reason to go to war...

BLITZER: So your bottom line is, there is no evidence of any serious connection...

ROCKEFELLER: No, only...

BLITZER: ... between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden?

ROCKEFELLER: The only -- no, they hated each other.

BLITZER: All right.

What about that, Senator Specter?

SPECTER: I agree with Senator Rockefeller. There had been a lot of talk about one meeting in Eastern Europe, but it never panned out. <b>And the Bush administration never made any claim that there was a connection between Saddam and al Qaeda.</b> If there had been, if it could have been proved, it would have been dynamite, but there just wasn't any evidence to support it.


Bush Administration Claims:

O "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam." - President Bush, 9/25/02



O "There's no question that Saddam Hussein had al Qaeda ties." - President Bush, 9/17/03



O "There's overwhelming evidence there was a connection between al Qaeda and the Iraqi government. I am very confident that there was an established relationship there." - Vice President Cheney, 1/22/04



O "There was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda." - Vice President Cheney, 9/14/03



O "Iraq and al Qaeda have discussed safe haven opportunities in Iraq, reciprocal nonaggression discussions." - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 9/26/02



O "There clearly are contacts between al Qaeda and Iraq that can be documented." - National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, 9/25/02


<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/slogans.gif"></center>

[NewYorkDragons80]

Since you value intelligence experts, why don't you post testimony by James Woolsey on al-Qaeda-Iraq connections?

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[keithy_19]

I am an intelligence expert but I must not report the things that I have been told. Lets just say it involves Pakistan, France, and a sex tape.

http://64.177.177.182/katylina/bravekeithy.jpg
Thanks to katylina...

This message was edited by KeithyBoBeefy on 3-21-04 @ 9:48 PM

[Katylina]

I am an intelligence expert but I must not report the things that I have been told. Lets just say it involves Katylina, a cock, and a toilet bowl.

http://64.177.177.182/katylina/bravekeithy.jpg




This message was edited by Katylina on 3-21-04 @ 10:00 PM

[Doomstone]

why don't you post testimony by James Woolsey on al-Qaeda-Iraq connections?


Why don't you? This would be the appropriate thread to do so.

<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/slogans.gif"></center>

[NewYorkDragons80]

[quote]'Kay' Sera, Sera
There was probably no way to know about the absence of Iraqi weapons.

BY R. JAMES WOOLSEY
Saturday, February 7, 2004 12:01 a.m.

So which is it: Are America's spies a gaggle of fools for believing that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? Or is the Bush administration a gang of knaves for lying us into a war?
Take the spies-as-fools allegation first.

There was no substantial disagreement between the U.S. and other countries before the war about the likelihood--based on a history of deception--that Saddam Hussein retained weapons of mass destruction. Jacques Chirac warned last February about "the probable possession of weapons of mass destruction by an uncontrollable country, Iraq" and added "the international community is right . . . in having decided that Iraq should be disarmed." David Kay has spoken of German and Russian intelligence reports that "painted a picture of Iraq armed with weapons of mass destruction." The Israelis procured gas masks for every citizen. If Saddam actually disposed of all his weapons and stocks of chemical and biological agent well before last year's war began, many countries were deceived.

But we are now learning something further from Mr. Kay's recent disclosures: that there were quite specific prewar indications of WMD--"reports of movement" of weapons themselves, of "weapons being assigned to specific units as well as specific locations." This may explain the press reports that appeared in this newspaper and elsewhere late last year. Each captured Iraqi general being interrogated was convinced that, although his own unit had no chemical weapons, the units on his right and left flanks certainly did.





There are several possible explanations for such indications of the presence of actual weapons. First, Saddam, knowing that he had destroyed his stockpiles, might have spread false stories that he knew would reach our ears in order to intimidate us. We pulled up short of Baghdad in 1991 and he might have thought such lies could help deter us again. He might also have wanted to maintain his reputation for having WMD, as Mr. Kay suggests, to look formidable in the Arab world and intimidate his own people. The oddest possibility Mr. Kay suggests is that Saddam may have been deceived himself by some of his own scientists into paying for non-existent WMD programs while the scientists pocketed the funds. This would amount to his having been our co-victim in a fraud run by other Iraqis.
A second possibility is that stockpiles were destroyed, but some only at the last minute--as war began--so that these latter did exist when the intelligence estimates were made. There have been intriguing press reports on this point, including a story in the New York Times last April about an Iraqi intelligence officer who said he was asked to destroy chemical weapons material just as the war started. Such a last-minute cleaning up would fit with reported Franco-Russian efforts early last year to help Iraq obtain a cease-fire coupled with thorough inspections.

Third, reports from both Mr. Kay and earlier ones from intelligence imagery analysts have indicated that some WMD-related material probably crossed into Syria early last year. So some stockpiles may have been exported as the war began. Others may have been hidden then.

But for last-minute destruction, shipment or hiding, the volumes of biological or chemical agent would have to have been small. Wouldn't stockpiles of WMD themselves be massive, as former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook is fond of suggesting?

Actually, no. Why? Stockpiles would normally have been composed of biological or chemical "agents," ready to be inserted into weapons. Take anthrax. The Iraqis admitted they had made 8,500 liters (8.5 tons), and Colin Powell in his February speech to the U.N. Security Council noted that the U.N. inspectors thought Saddam could have about three times as much. But even this larger amount would weigh only some 25 tons in liquid form--slightly more than one tractor-trailer load. If reduced to powder,

[NewYorkDragons80]

There is a difference between saying "Iraq poses an immediate threat" and "Of all countries, no country poses a more immediate threat than Iraq"

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

[NewYorkDragons80]

Here's one from Reuters:
Tariq Aziz, Saddam Hussein's deputy prime minister, turned himself in to coalition forces yesterday, becoming the highest-profile member of the Baathist regime to be captured so far. "Ordinary Iraqis . . . welcomed" Aziz's surrender, Reuters reports in an uncharacteristically pro-American dispatch:

"I heard the good news this morning. This is another proof that Saddam is finished. If Aziz surrenders to the Americans, who is still with Saddam?" said Mohammad Hareth, a street vendor plying his trade on the quiet, early morning streets of Baghdad.

"He is on his own with a handful of people, among them his two sons."

ABC News reports that it was a son of Aziz who negotiated the surrender. We noted in December that Aziz had given an interview to Fox News's Tony Snow, in which the Iraqi both denied any regime ties to al Qaeda and predicted that Iraq's liberation would lead to more terrorism because "the hatred against the United States will reach its peak." There's no evidence so far of the prediction coming through, and the denial may be disproved thanks to another regime figure the coalition has nabbed: Farouk Hijazi, the former operations chief of Saddam's intelligence service.

"Hijazi is suspected of involvement in the unsuccessful plot by Iraqi intelligence to kill former President Bush, the current president's father, in Kuwait in 1993," CNN reports. Hijazi is not among the 55 "most wanted" officials portrayed on the famous deck of cards (Aziz is the eight of spades), but he's a big fish nonetheless. "This man was involved we know with a number of contacts with al Qaeda," erstwhile CIA director James Woolsey tells CNN. London's Guardian reported in February 1999 that the previous December Hijazi, then Baghdad's ambassador to Ankara, traveled to Afghanistan "to recruit Osama bin Laden."

Hijazi was caught at the Syrian border, though it's unclear whether the Syrians expelled him. Fox News reports that Damascus had "vehemently denied" Hijazi was in the country. American officials have had tough words for Syria in recent days; this may be evidence that the message is getting through.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

[NewYorkDragons80]

Finally, from NPR:

National Public Radio
MORNING EDITION (10:00 a.m.ET)
Feb. 18, 1999
THOUGH AFGHANISTAN HAS PROVIDED OSAMA BIN LADEN WITH SANCTUARY, IT IS UNCLEAR WHERE HE IS NOW. ANCHORS: BOB EDWARDS REPORTERS: MIKE SHUSTER

... There have also been reports in recent months that bin Laden might have been considering moving his operations to Iraq. Intelligence agencies in several nations are looking into that. According to Vincent Cannistraro, a former chief of CIA counterterrorism operations, a senior Iraqi intelligence official, Farouk Hijazi(ph), sought out bin Laden in December and invited him to come to Iraq.

Mr. VINCENT CANNISTRARO (Former Chief of CIA Counterterrorism Operations): Farouk Hijazi, who was the Iraqi ambassador in Turkey ... known through sources in Afghanistan, members of Osama's entourage let it be known that the meeting had taken place.

SHUSTER: Iraq's contacts with bin Laden go back some years, to at least 1994, when, according to one U.S. government source, Hijazi met him when bin Laden lived in Sudan. According to Cannistraro, Iraq invited bin Laden to live in Baghdad to be nearer to potential targets of terrorist attack in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. There is a wide gap between bin Laden's fundamentalism and Saddam Hussein's secular dictatorship. But some experts believe bin Laden might be tempted to live in Iraq because of his reported desire to obtain chemical or biological weapons. CIA director George Tenet referred to that in recent testimony. ...

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

[HBox]

No proof of Iraq, Al Qaeda links (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3909150/)

Secretary of State Colin Powell reversed a year of administration policy, acknowledging Thursday that he had seen no "smoking gun [or] concrete evidence" of ties between former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida.

"I have not seen smoking gun, concrete evidence about the connection, but I do believe the connections existed," he said.

Even if you were to ignore everything that would contradict the purported Iraq-Al Qaeda links, they are still tenous at best. Nothing that would suggest any actual working together. However, the better question is: there are other nations who clearly support Al Qaeda, and some are our "allies." What have we done to them? In the case of Pakistan, we have done nothing but reward.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[Doomstone]

There is a difference between saying "Iraq poses an immediate threat" and "Of all countries, no country poses a more immediate threat than Iraq"


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...so hypothetically, if I were to say "There's nobody more full of shit than NewYorkDragons80," you wouldn't take it as me saying you're full of shit? I somehow doubt that.

Oh, and thanks for posting the Woolsey lies. Man, it almost seems like he believes what he's saying!

<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/slogans.gif"></center>

[NewYorkDragons80]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. An Intelligence agent's word is gold if it supports your political beliefs, but you have the nerve to call a former DCI a liar because his views don't fall in line with yours. Pardon me, but he's better versed on this subject than you can ever hope to be.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

[Doomstone]

Joke



























Your head

<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/slogans.gif"></center>

[NewYorkDragons80]

Joke



























Your head
http://www.planet-familyguy.com/downloads/clipart/stewie13.jpg
Oh my! You're so funny! The joke going above my head, why that's so funny. That is what you were saying, wasn't it? The joke going above my head? Taking a cliche such as that and applying it to this everyday situation, that's so funny! Do you write your own material? Because you are a funny, funny man!

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

[Doomstone]

Do you write your own material? Because you are a funny, funny man!


Pfft! I ain't got nothin' on our preznit!

<i>Earlier today, the Libyan government released Fathi Jahmi. She's a local government official who was imprisoned in 2002 for advocating free speech and democracy.</i> -Dubya, talking about <b>Mr.</b> Fathi Jahmi, a man, in a speech commemorating International Women's Week, Washington, D.C., Mar. 12, 2004


<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/slogans.gif"></center>

[shamus mcfitzy]

hahahaha

oh man i can honestly say i've wanted to spit at you through my computer, NYD, but that was niiiiiiiiice. Stewie=funny

[Doomstone]

WATCH SENATOR ARLEN SPECTER LIE TO AMERICA! (http://tinyurl.com/392yf)

These people have no shame.

<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/slogans.gif"></center>

[high fly]

Here's a nice lie for ya:
On Sept 7, 2002, at the White House, with "Tony" Blair, Bush invented a "new" IAEA report that said Iraq was " 6 months away from building a nuclear weapon... I don't know what more proof we need." said the man from Dubstinia.



" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[Doomstone]

Good one High Fly. What I love about that lie is all the lies the administration had to make up in order to defend the original lie.

Lie #1:

"I would remind you that when the inspectors first went into Iraq and were denied -- finally denied access [in 1998], a report came out of the Atomic -- the IAEA that they were six months away from developing a weapon. I don't know what more evidence we need,"
- Dubya, 9/7/02.


IAEA Response:

"There's never been a report like that issued from this agency. We've never put a time frame on how long it might take Iraq to construct a nuclear weapon in 1998."
- Mark Gwozdecky, IAEA chief spokesman


So the White House went with Lie #2:

"He's referring to 1991 there. In '91, there was a report saying that after the war they found out they were about six months away." - Deputy Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 9/27/02


Of course THAT IAEA report doesn't exist either.

So then the White House went with Lie #3:

"It was in fact the International Institute for Strategic Studies that issued the report concluding that Iraq could develop nuclear weapons in as few as six months."
- Ari Fleisher, 10/24/02

Of course THAT report was issued two days AFTER Bush's original phony claim. Oh, what a tangled web we weave! You'd think for a group who lies constantly and about everything they'd be better at it!


<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/slogans.gif"></center>

[Doomstone]

Good stuff from the Center for American Progress debunking the lies being told by the Bush administration about Richard Clarke:

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=39828


[quote]</center>
CLAIM #1: "Richard Clarke had plenty of opportunities to tell us in the administration that he thought the war on terrorism was moving in the wrong direction and he chose not to."
- National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, 3/22/04

FACT: Clarke sent a memo to Rice principals on 1/24/01 marked "urgent" asking for a Cabinet-level meeting to deal with an impending Al Qaeda attack. The White House acknowledges this, but says "principals did not need to have a formal meeting to discuss the threat." No meeting occurred until one week before 9/11.
- White House Press Release, 3/21/04

CLAIM #2: "The president returned to the White House and called me in and said, I've learned from George Tenet that there is no evidence of a link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11."
- National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, 3/22/04

FACT: If this is true, then why did the President and Vice President repeatedly claim Saddam Hussein was directly connected to 9/11? President Bush sent a letter to Congress on 3/19/03 saying that the Iraq war was permitted specifically under legislation that authorized force against "nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11." Similarly, Vice President Cheney said on 9/14/03 that "It is not surprising that people make that connection" between Iraq and the 9/11 attacks, and said "we don't know" if there is a connection.

CLAIM #3: "[Clarke] was moved out of the counterterrorism business over to the cybersecurity side of things."
- Vice President Dick Cheney on Rush Limbaugh, 3/22/04

FACT: "Dick Clarke continued, in the Bush Administration, to be the National Coordinator for Counterterrorism and the President's principle counterterrorism expert. He was expected to organize and attend all meetings of Principals and Deputies on terrorism. And he did."
- White House Press Release, 3/21/04

CLAIM #4: "In June and July when the threat spikes were so high.we were at battle stations.The fact of the matter is [that] the administration focused on this before 9/11."
- National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, 3/22/04

FACT: "Documents indicate that before Sept. 11, Ashcroft did not give terrorism top billing in his strategic plans for the Justice Department, which includes the FBI. A draft of Ashcroft's 'Strategic Plan' from Aug. 9, 2001, does not put fighting terrorism as one of the department's seven goals, ranking it as a sub-goal beneath gun violence and drugs. By contrast, in April 2000, Ashcroft's predecessor, Janet Reno, called terrorism 'the most challenging threat in the criminal justice area.'"
- Washington Post, 3/22/04

CLAIM #5: "The president launched an aggressive response after 9/11."
- National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, 3/22/04

FACT: "In the early days after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the Bush White House cut by nearly two-thirds an emergency request for counterterrorism funds by the FBI, an internal administration budget document shows. The papers show that Ashcroft ranked counterterrorism efforts as a lower priority than his predecessor did, and that he resisted FBI requests for more counterterrorism funding before and immediately after the attacks."
- Washington Post, 3/22/04

CLAIM #6: "Well, [Clarke] wasn't in the loop, frankly, on a lot of this stuff."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, 3/22/04

FACT: "The Government's interagency counterterrorism crisis management forum (the Counterterrorism Security Group, or "CSG") chaired by Dick Clarke met regularly, often daily, during the high threat period."
- White House Press Release, 3/21/04

CLAIM #7: "[Bush] wanted a far more effective policy for trying to deal with [terrorism], and that process was in motion throughout the spring."
-

[Reephdweller]

http://www.fritzliess.com/movabletype/archives/images/cheney-soup.jpg

<center><IMG SRC="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=3">
<B>Horde King Forever!! <strike>The Oracle Never!!</strike></B></center>
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but soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done</marquee> </font>

[Doomstone]

http://www.ironictimes.com/images05/bushflow.gif

<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/slogans.gif"></center>

[TheMojoPin]

IT'S A FRENZY!

Interesting posts, Doomstone.

Thanks.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[high fly]

A misconception has arisen regarding the intelligence regarding Iraqi WMD before the war. That is that it was unanimous regarding them, when that is far from the truth.

Note the following from an article about retired General Anthony Zinni:

"Cheney's certitude bewildered Zinni. As chief of the Central Command, Zinni had been immersed in U.S. intelligence about Iraq. He was all too familiar with the intelligence analyst's doubts about Iraq's programs to acquire weapons of mass destruction, or WMD. "In my time at Centcom, I watched the intelligence, and never-not once- did it say, 'He has WMD.'"
"Though retired for nearly two years, Zinni says, he remained current on the intelligence through his consulting with the CIA and the military. "I did consulting work for the agency, right up to the beginning of the war. I never saw anything. I'd say to analysts, 'Where's the threat?'"
Their response, he recalls, was, "Silence.""

---from "For Vietnam Vet Anthony Zinni, Another War on Shaky Territory," by Thomas E. Ricks,Washington Post, December 23, 2003, page C1.

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[Doomstone]

Well, this certainly will be interesting:

Spinsanity announces All the President's Spin (http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2004_03_28_archive.html#1080529854044690 28)



We are proud to announce the upcoming release of our first book, All the President's Spin: George W. Bush, the Media and the Truth, which will be published in August by Touchstone/Fireside, an imprint of Simon & Schuster.

All the President's Spin will provide the definitive non-partisan account of the Bush administration's unrelenting dishonesty about public policy. The book will demonstrate how the White House has broken new ground in using misleading sales tactics to promote its policies and manipulate the media.

Of course, the President is not the only dishonest national politician, but he is surely the most influential. Bush's tactics threaten to change the nature of the presidency and further corrupt American political debate. That is why, rather than attacking his policies or ideology, our book will examine the public relations strategy the Bush administration has used to advance that agenda - its origins, how it works, and why it has been so effective at spinning the media.

In short, this is not a partisan book, nor are we changing the nature of our analysis. Our commitment to non-partisanship is steadfast; we will continue to hold Democrats and liberals accountable on the website, in our Philadelphia Inquirer column and elsewhere. But being non-partisan does not require that everything we write be mechanically balanced between criticism of both sides. In the future, we may well write books or articles focusing exclusively on liberals or Democrats, who have become increasingly aggressive in their rhetoric in recent months. But after almost three years of critiquing spin, we believe that Bush's presidency is the most important subject for an in-depth analysis.




<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds_sig.jpg">
Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>

[Doomstone]

David Letterman sez to the White House: YOU LIE!! (http://www.overspun.com/2004_03_28_archive.html#108075839309075982)

<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds_sig.jpg">
Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>