Will Kerry Be Able To Get The Electorial Votes?

[curtoid]

:|

This message was edited by curtoid on 3-6-05 @ 8:18 AM

[jeffdwright2001]

Some pundits feel that Ohio could actually be a swing state as well. In polls, many if its residents claim that their number one priority right now is the economy/industry. This doesn't bode well for Bush unless he quickly starts to remember that it was the economy that lost his father the re-election.

West Virginia went against Gore because they believed he was a threat to the Coal Industry. Yet, in previous elections they typically went for the Democratice nominee. You can safely bet that Kerry will be spending some signficant money and time (probably in that order) courting the WV voters.

I'm planning on voting against Bush (rather than for Kerry - as I don't think he is actually that much better). That being said, I can't say that I actually understand Bush's latest plans.

With his (and his administration) tackling gay marriage and indecency issues, I'm not sure who he's hoping to "lock in" as votes. The far right wouldn't abandon the party whether he had made these stands or not. It almost seems like his idea of reaching out to build a coalition of voters is much like his idea of reaching out a building a coalition of nations - kind of fouled up in the process part of the plan.

What's really weird is that if he is doing these things just because he believes in it (in his own warped way) then I don't understand why he wouldn't wait until his second term when he had nothing to lose. Of course, I suppose he might be thinking there will be no second term.

I've pretty much decided that since I'm not going to be thrilled with either person as President, I'm going to have to try to make a change via my votes for congress.

[curtoid]

:|

This message was edited by curtoid on 3-6-05 @ 8:19 AM

[Mike Teacher]

From Now until November = Forever.

Not even considering anything until about three or four major scandals and accusations break out on either side, or fate steps in. Sadly, I feel all of that is inevitable.



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[Patches]

I think Bush will win. I think a lot of the "Anyone but Bush!" crowd will turn into the "Anyone but Bush, but cmon! This guy?!" crowd. That means alot of Kerry votes turn into Nader votes, or more likely, non-votes.

That being said, I don't understand Bush's attack on the gay marriage issue. Sure, he pleases the conservatives, but they were voting for him anyway. He did however piss off alot of unsure moderates, possibly pushing them to the left side of the fence.

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[Se7en]

My most honest answer: he has a shot, but ultimately, I doubt he will.

People may be looking for a Democrat to support, but that Dem ain't him.

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[curtoid]

Not even considering anything until about three or four major scandals and accusations break out on either side, or fate steps in. Sadly, I feel all of that is inevitable.

I think all of the scandals have already been leaked out there and it will just be a matter of time to see if any of them have legs.

That being said, I don't understand Bush's attack on the gay marriage issue. Sure, he pleases the conservatives, but they were voting for him anyway. He did however piss off alot of unsure moderates, possibly pushing them to the left side of the fence.

It's horrifying that we have a president that is going to isolate a portion of this country that pays their taxes, just like we do, for the same services and rights, and then deny them equel recognition when it comes down to the fact that they are attracted to the same sex.

If Marriage is restricted for those having children, then what about those who marry late in life and don't want any children, or those who can't have children??? According to GW and his God, they are just as evil.

And if Marriage is this holy institution then fine - the word "marriage" remains a religious term, and only churches that choose to perform same sex unions can have them called "marriages" - which will be legally recognized across the country.

If it is not a religious ceremony it is then a "Civil Union" whether or not it is between a man and a woman, or two people of the same sex - and it too is recognized across the country.

The Civil Rights movement illustrated that not all issues belong simply on the state level.

People may be looking for a Democrat to support, but that Dem ain't him.

If I were a betting man, I'd lay down some money right now that says otherwise.




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This message was edited by curtoid on 3-4-04 @ 3:50 PM

[Patches]

It's horrifying that we have a president that is going to isolate a portion of this country that pays their taxes, just like we do, for the same services and rights, and then deny them equel recognition when it comes down to the fact that they are attracted to the same sex.


All valid points; I just don't understand it on a political level, especially when you are up for reelection. Unless of course, he really feels that passionate about the issue (I for one think President's rarely feel passionate about any issue, and if they did, they sure as hell ain't gonna tell us, especially if it is an unpopular stance).

That is the scary part: Speaking out against gay marriage makes no political sense, so therefore, the man must feel very strongly, personally againsti it. I cut Bush a lot of slack over the last 4 years but I can't explain this one.

Still not voting for Kerry though.

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[TheMojoPin]

I'd watch it, Se7en. Depending on who Kerry chooses as his VP, he may have a real shot.

Of course, I'M not voting for his waffling ass...but still...

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[Tall_James]

It's horrifying that we have a president that is going to isolate a portion of this country that pays their taxes, just like we do, for the same services and rights, and then deny them equel recognition when it comes down to the fact that they are attracted to the same sex.


Replace "attracted to the same sex" with "people who enjoy tobacco".

See, it can work with any administration.


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[curtoid]

:|

This message was edited by curtoid on 3-6-05 @ 8:21 AM

[TheMojoPin]

I don't know who I'm voting for at this point. Nader doesn't offer anything, since he doesn't have a party like the Greens backing him that his running could draw attention/funds to.

Someone print me up a "KERRY'S A KUNT" bumpersticker, STAT. Pruneface is going down.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-4-04 @ 5:09 PM

[HBox]

I will probably unenthusiastically vote for Kerry. I would just like to know what Democrats have been smoking that makes them think Kerry is the most electable. I think Edwards was clearly that candidate.

But really, this election is about Bush. He, and he alone, will win or lose this election.

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[A.J.]

Electorial Votes

He probably has a better shot of getting electoral votes. ;)

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[CruelCircus]

I think those of you who "just don't get" the gay-marriage strategy and think it's such an awful loser for Bush might be a bit out of touch with what Middle America thinks. It's very easy to be caught in the progressive, Northeast bubble we live in culturally, but there are a large number of religious people living in the center of this country- the same type of folks who got pissed about Janet Jackson- and a lot of them are Democrats. They believe what Bush is saying on this particular issue, and the polls show it. Once the protesters really get going- insulting Christians, making fun of the Bible, acting out gay Jesus and his gay apostles (you know it's coming...) they're just gonna piss off a lot of faithful people, a lot more than Bush pissed off, and push a lot of moderate voters away from "crazy liberals."
The more out of hand this issue gets, the more I think it helps Bush, to be honest. If you don't believe me, look at how Kerry and Edwards handled it... they wanted nothing to do with a solid answer on this one.


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[TheMojoPin]

Goddamn stupid "Heartland."

I'd tell them to go to Hell, but they're obviously already there.

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[A.J.]

Goddamn stupid "Heartland."

"Ah, but ain't that America?"

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[curtoid]

:|

This message was edited by curtoid on 3-6-05 @ 8:24 AM

[Se7en]

If I were a betting man, I'd lay down some money right now that says otherwise.

Your buddy Ralph Nader, of all people, had some good points about the whole "Anyone but Bush!" philosophy infecting Democrats - it's gonna come back and bite them on the ass.

I'd watch it, Se7en. Depending on who Kerry chooses as his VP, he may have a real shot.


I SAID, he has a shot, but ultimately, I don't think he'll win.

Actually, this time Nader might divert some GOPers too

Yeah, keep THAT dream alive.

Nader's not going to be swaying very many people as it is, but I will bet everything I own in this life that he'll sway far more liberals to his side than he will members of the GOP.

I think Edwards was clearly that candidate.


I happen to agree with you.

I think those of you who "just don't get" the gay-marriage strategy and think it's such an awful loser for Bush might be a bit out of touch with what Middle America thinks.

Here's why it WON'T be such a losing issue for Bush - JOHN KERRY HAS THE SAME POSITION AS BUSH.

Bush is against gay marriage, is for some sort of civil union legislation, pro-constitutional amendment.

Kerry is against gay marriage, for some sort of civil union legislation, maybe has not supported a *federal* constitutional amendment but HAS said he supports an amendment to the MA constitution to prevent gay marriages in his home state.

Both men are pretty much the same on this.

Isn't it time you finally admitted that you are a Republican and give up this charade about being liberal????


I keep inviting him to all of the meetings of the conservative Legion of Doom, but I never get an RSVP.

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[TheMojoPin]

Someone print me up a "KERRY'S A KUNT" bumpersticker, STAT.

Isn't it time you finally admitted that you are a Republican and give up this charade about being liberal????

Only if Kerry does it first!

SHAZAM!!!

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[Se7en]

Someone print me up a "KERRY'S A KUNT" bumpersticker, STAT.

Isn't it time you finally admitted that you are a Republican and give up this charade about being liberal????

Only if Kerry does it first!

SHAZAM!!!


Interesting fact, Mojo: John Kerry was originally a member of the Young Republicans back in his days at Yale.

I know - I'm as SHOCKED as you are that he was flip-flopping even back then.....

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This message was edited by Se7en on 3-7-04 @ 2:22 PM

[Doomstone]

People aren't allowed to switch political parties as they get older?

[curtoid]

People aren't allowed to switch political parties as they get older?



Only if it's Ronald Wilson Reagan.




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[A.J.]

People aren't allowed to switch political parties as they get older?



Only if it's Ronald Wilson Reagan.




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Or James Strom Thurmond.

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[furie]

Ok, here's a question for all. I was going start a new thread, but there are too many election threads.

How exactly is Kerry different than Bush.

And keep the hate to a minimum.


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[keithy_19]

Kerry looks like lurch. Bush looks like a cowboy. 'Nuff said.

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[keithy_19]

Kerry looks like lurch. Bush looks like a cowboy. 'Nuff said.

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[keithy_19]

Double post to the max!

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[HBox]

Kerry looks like lurch. Bush looks like a cowboy. 'Nuff said.

This is why it's a good thing you can't vote. We are dreading your arrival into the voting population.

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[Se7en]

People aren't allowed to switch political parties as they get older?


Certainly they can.

I just find it amusing that apparently Kerry couldn't make up his mind on an issue even back then. ;p

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[Doomstone]

I just find it amusing that apparently Kerry couldn't make up his mind on an issue even back then. ;p


For example?

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[curtoid]

Two of the big things they would love to paint Kerry as is a "waffling" liberal who panders to special interests. While he may very well be a liberal, for the Bushistas to concentrait on "flip flopping" and "pandering" is a pretty ballsy gamble that shows either ignorance or defiance to recent history.

I just find it amusing that apparently Kerry couldn't make up his mind on an issue even back then

Well, I find it amusing that Bush can't make up his mind even now...

"ú Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.

ú Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.

ú Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.

ú Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.

ú Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.

ú Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.

ú Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.

ú Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a 'road map' and a Palestinian State.

ú Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.

ú Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.

ú Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits

ú Bush-'The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush- 'I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.'

ú Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island.

ú Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.

ú Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will."*

(Excepted from The Daily Kos (http://www.dailykos.com/)).

The NY Times had a good editorial a few weeks ago about this whole flip-flopping issue, but .The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/columns/kurtzhoward/)'s Howard Kurtz (who covers the media and politics) had this to say in his introduction to today's column, which I also liked:

Can it really be that both candidates are spineless tacticians who change their positions at the slightest provocation, just to vacuum up votes? Or is that just typical campaign rhetoric?

Is changing your mind in politics really such an awful thing?

Do we really our politicians to be so cautious about future attacks that they're afraid to explore new ideas or think out loud? After all, if you stick to the same old stale talking points, you can never be accused of flipping. Or flopping.

At the same time, if presidential aspirants don't have a cohesive approach over the years to fundamental matters of war and peace and the economy--or at least a logical progression--that raises some serious concerns.

I also wonder whether these back-and-forth charges just cancel themselves out as voters give up on figuring out who deserves the championship in the flip-flopping sweepstakes

And before some of you (and you know who you are) get worked up into a lather about Kerry "waffling," I'd like to remind of the last time a Democratic Presidential challenger was accused of this by a President named "Bush" was
in 1992 (http://www.faculty.virginia.edu/setear/courses/howweget/clinton1.htm):

Overcoming serious charges involving alleged extramarital affairs and questions about his avoiding the draft, he won the Democratic presidential nomination in 1992. He was accused of "waffling" in his campaign speeches, but he kept the pressure on incumbent George Bush by focusing on the economic plight of many Americans. He won the three-way presidential race with 43% of the popular vote and 370 out of 525 electoral votes.

Many of you are too young to remember this 12 years ago, but Bush Sr. really thought he had something there with this, and he worked it into everything, including a stop at a "waffle" shop!




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