Are WTC victims families being too greedy?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I do not want to sound insensitive to this horrible tragedy, but It seems to me that alot of the families of the World Trade Center victims are being very one sided. We must never forget that tragic day, and no amount of money or compensation could ever bring back the victims.

However, the same people who get offended by the bush advertisement, want to show the same images on their terms. WTC victims families received huge compensations from the federal government in average about 1.6 million dollars, which doesnt include insurance policies, etc, and if the victim was a policeman,fireman,ems worker more money was given to those families, and countless funds and charities have been set up. If a soldier dies in Iraq, the family gets 6000 dollars for burial expenses from the federal gov't.

There were also other victims of that day, It seems that we forget about the passengers on those planes who were hijacked by those terrorist scum, and there were victims in the pentagon as well.

Let us pray for the families of ALL of the victims.

FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

[Johnny Fontane]

Yes, there is a lot of greed involved, no doubt. If some poor guy gets murdered on the street, does the government pay his family millions because the police failed to protect him? Of course not, they get shit.

The whole concept of this compensation revolves around the notion that the airlines were responsible and the government had to save their ass.

It's my understanding that a few families passed up the compensation and intend to sue the airlines. It will be interesting to see how that turns out. Those cases will probably be tied up in the courts for years.

Also, God gorbid there is another horrible attack, does this set a precedent? Will the families of those victims get compensation?

http://www.grandinotizie.it/image/g/000/00040.jpg
"The principal benefit acting has afforded me is the money to pay for my psychoanalysis."

This message was edited by Johnny Fontane on 3-6-04 @ 12:20 PM

[CYYYFYYY]

Yes, they do sound too greedy. They are people who happen to be related to people who dyed in a horrible attack. How does that make them decide what we should do with the world trade center? When someone dies in the tracks of a subway do they decide how the subway should be run. I know it is horrible but it is none of there damn business

Everyone Loves CYYYFYYY
I am just a Simple jewish Boy
from the Lower east Side
I am the CYYYFYYY

[Yerdaddy]

So the fact that they got financial compensation means that they shouldn't be able to express their opinion?

However, the same people who get offended by the bush advertisement, want to show the same images on their terms.
It's their family that died, not Bush's. He's using the images to get reelected, what are they using it for that's got you upset? And which victim's families are you complaining about? Can you be more specific so you're not lumping all the survivors together just because someone dared to question your precious Bush?

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[Teenweek]

So they get millions of dollars in compensation, they get major input to choose the memorial and what is built there at Ground Zero, and they get to say whether anyone can use it as an ad.

These families are really starting to annoy the shit out of me. If it was up to the rest of New York, the World Trade Center would be rebuilt right now and not some artistic and flowery bullshit that is going up there now.

[CYYYFYYY]

TEENWEEK.....perfectly said

Everyone Loves CYYYFYYY
I am just a Simple jewish Boy
from the Lower east Side
I am the CYYYFYYY

[WRESTLINGFAN]

There was a terrorist act done in March of 1995 in Oklahoma City, which was done by an American, Wheres the compensation for that?





FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

[Johnny Fontane]

God gorbid


Wow, I like the way that sounds. I won't even bother to edit it.

http://www.grandinotizie.it/image/g/000/00040.jpg
"The principal benefit acting has afforded me is the money to pay for my psychoanalysis."

[JohnnyCash]

It doesnt matter what they get. It will still never replace what they lost in the first place.

<IMG SRC="http://www.osirusonline.com/cashsig.gif">
Thanks to Reefdwella for the great Sig Pic.

[ADF]

The whole concept of this compensation revolves around the notion that the airlines were responsible and the government had to save their ass.


Yeah, I was set to be annoyed with the families until Johnny reminded me of that. It makes more sense to me that the families should be compensated, however insignificantly when compared to the worth of a life, than to have each family sue the airlines and a bunch of other companies. It sucks that those in the military, myself included, only get that $6000 burial compensation, but nobody goes into the military trying to get rich. I signed knowing I could be putting myself in danger. The victims of the World Trade Center attack just wanted to go to work.

<center><img src = "http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/adfpenguin.gif"><br>I'm so glad the cheat is not dead.</center>

[WRESTLINGFAN]

These families are really starting to annoy the shit out of me. If it was up to the rest of New York, the World Trade Center would be rebuilt right now and not some artistic and flowery bullshit that is going up there now.


They started to rebuild the pentagon soon after the attack there, Why are the WTC families having all these demands about a memorial? Yes have a memorial, but enough with the red tape. The attack on Pearl Harbor left 2300 dead and there wasnt any bickering over the memorial for that.

FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

[Arienette]

this thread disgusts me.

as far as i know, none of you lost a family member in the world trade center (and, if you did, i think you might agree with what i have to say). so where do any of you get off passing judgment on these people? the wtc attack was the most scary, hateful, and tragic thing that i hope any of us will have to see in our lifetimes. it is bad enough having to live through something like that. but imagine having to live after losing someone you love that way. never getting to say goodbye. knowing how frightened they must have been before they died. while i empathize as well with victims of other horrible tragedies (some of which have been brought up previously and who don't receive the same compensation), that should not detract at all from what these families have had to and will continue to endure.

like yerdaddy said, the families should have a special right to use the footage (although i also don't know to what purpose it's being used) that no one else should. whether you are a bush supporter or not is wholly irrelevant. if you are a human being with any sense of compassion at all you should be disgusted that bush would use this horrific reality to bolster his campaign. it's perverse, and he should be voted out for that alone. a good president doesn't exploit his country's worst tragedy to get reelected. he has no soul.

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/aricheat.gif" height=100 width=300</img><br>the moon, it leaves silver but never sleep
and then the silver turns to gray
oh, stay with me, arienette, until the wolves are away
</center>

[WRESTLINGFAN]

This thread was not started to disgust anyone. So was it disgusting for FDR to show the attack on Pearl Harbor for his re election, or for Abe Lincoln to remind the country of the civil war whick killed over 400,000 americans including more than 13,000 on a single day at Antietam?

Like I said before NO amount of money can replace a human life, but It has been 2 1/2 years since the WTC was destroyed and still no rebuilding. We need to let those bastards in Al Qaeda that we can rebuild and move on, but still remember

FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

[Johnny Fontane]

I signed knowing I could be putting myself in danger.


When was this? What the hell did you do that for?

http://www.grandinotizie.it/image/g/000/00040.jpg
"The principal benefit acting has afforded me is the money to pay for my psychoanalysis."

[HBox]

So was it disgusting for FDR to show the attack on Pearl Harbor for his re election, or for Abe Lincoln to remind the country of the civil war whick killed over 400,000 americans including more than 13,000 on a single day at Antietam?

<IMG SRC="http://www.isthatlegal.org/roosevelt.jpg" HEIGHT=300 WIDTH=450>

<IMG SRC="http://www.isthatlegal.org/lincoln.jpg" HEIGHT=300 WIDTH=450>

Looks appropriate to me.

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This message was edited by HBox on 3-6-04 @ 10:29 PM

[Arienette]

I signed knowing I could be putting myself in danger.
When was this? What the hell did you do that for?yeah, i'd like to know the answer to that myself...


<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/aricheat.gif" height=100 width=300</img><br>the moon, it leaves silver but never sleep
and then the silver turns to gray
oh, stay with me, arienette, until the wolves are away
</center>

[TheMojoPin]

So was it disgusting for FDR to show the attack on Pearl Harbor for his re election, or for Abe Lincoln to remind the country of the civil war whick killed over 400,000 americans including more than 13,000 on a single day at Antietam?

<IMG SRC="http://www.isthatlegal.org/roosevelt.jpg" HEIGHT=300 WIDTH=450>

<IMG SRC="http://www.isthatlegal.org/lincoln.jpg" HEIGHT=300 WIDTH=450>

Looks appropriate to me.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

Oh my good God.

All other posts should bow down and declare themselves awful and unfunny before this one.

TOO FUCKIN' FUNNY.

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[ADF]

When was this? What the hell did you do that for?


Not recently. Back in the day.

<center><img src = "http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/adfpenguin.gif"><br>I'm so glad the cheat is not dead.</center>

[DarkHippie]

WTC victims families received huge compensations from the federal government in average about 1.6 million
If they spilled coffee on themselves in a McDonalds, they would've received more. And not every victim is receiving money. my cousin was lived off Chambers when it happened, and was disabled by the attack (he can barely breathe now). He gets nothing from the gov.

Remember, the WTC site is a graveyard, not some property to be claimed and manipulated. The families of those who died there should have priority in what gets put there. And no politician should be able to use it for politician games. That includes holding RNC rallys on the site in Sept.

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[Teenweek]

And no politician should be able to use it for politician games. That includes holding RNC rallys on the site in Sept.



Try it is in August and the Democrats had first dibs but REFUSED because they wanted exclusivity to new York. The Republicans were prepared to di it in Texas. Once the Democrats said no and went to Boston, the Republicans went to new York.

[TheMojoPin]

Try it is in August and the Democrats had first dibs but REFUSED because they wanted exclusivity to new York. The Republicans were prepared to di it in Texas. Once the Democrats said no and went to Boston, the Republicans went to new York.

AND...?!?

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[zoom2457]

The Pentagon is the military's headquarters, the Oklahoma city bombing was a government building. The attack on Pearl Harbor happened because it was a military base. The civil war happened a long time ago and it did involve, pretty much, everybody. Yes, all these things are horrible, but, the WTC was a civilian target. These were people just trying to go to work. These people didn't do ANYTHING to deserve this. For me, anything the victims families want they can have. It was the worst thing to ever have happen, and those people should never, NEVER be called annoying.

"Excuse me, excuse me I believe you have my stapler"

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The Pentagon is the military's headquarters, the Oklahoma city bombing was a government building. The attack on Pearl Harbor happened because it was a military base. The civil war happened a long time ago and it did involve, pretty much, everybody. Yes, all these things are horrible, but, the WTC was a civilian target. These were people just trying to go to work. These people didn't do ANYTHING to deserve this. For me, anything the victims families want they can have. It was the worst thing to ever have happen, and those people should never, NEVER be called annoying.
"

The victims in Oklahoma city were also working, Pearl Harbor had sailors working that day, the Pentagon had people working on 9/11. It seems to me that alot of the WTC families think that the loss of their loved ones takes precedence over victims of other terrible tragedies, I totally agree that the WTC victims did nothing to deserve this, but victims of the other tragedies did nothing to deserve them either

FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

[A.J.]

So was it disgusting for FDR to show the attack on Pearl Harbor for his re election, or for Abe Lincoln to remind the country of the civil war whick killed over 400,000 americans including more than 13,000 on a single day at Antietam?

<IMG SRC="http://www.isthatlegal.org/roosevelt.jpg" HEIGHT=300 WIDTH=450>

<IMG SRC="http://www.isthatlegal.org/lincoln.jpg" HEIGHT=300 WIDTH=450>

Looks appropriate to me.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

This message was edited by HBox on 3-6-04 @ 10:29 PM

Good stuff. Now do one for Jefferson Davis '64.

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[Doomstone]

Try it is in August

August 28 - Sept 2


and the Democrats had first dibs but REFUSED because they wanted exclusivity to new York. The Republicans were prepared to di it in Texas. Once the Democrats said no and went to Boston, the Republicans went to new York.

So the Democrats wanted exclusivity in New York, but they turned it down because the Republicans were going to hold their convention in Texas?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

[Yerdaddy]

Congratulations WRESTLINGFAN, you've managed to slander the WTC victims and two of our greatest presidents in the same thread for your partisan purposes. You should win a nice prize.

Seriously, what's your evidence that "alot of the WTC families think that the loss of their loved ones takes precedence over victims of other terrible tragedies"? What's your evidence that Presidents Lincoln and FDR campaigned on Antietam and Pearl Harbor? In fact, what's your evidence that you're not just throwing the WTC victim's families under the bus for your own partisan purposes? IF YOU CAN'T BACK UP THE CLAIMS THAT YOU'RE MAKING AGIANST THESE PEOPLE THEN DON'T MAKE THEM!!

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[WRESTLINGFAN]

[quote]Congratulations WRESTLINGFAN, you've managed to slander the WTC victims and two of our greatest presidents in the same thread for your partisan purposes. You should win a nice prize.

Seriously, what's your evidence that "alot of the WTC families think that the loss of their loved ones takes precedence over victims of other terrible tragedies"? What's your evidence that Presidents Lincoln and FDR campaigned on Antietam and Pearl Harbor? In fact, what's your evidence that you're not just throwing the WTC victim's families under the bus for your own partisan purposes? IF YOU CAN'T BACK UP THE CLAIMS THAT YOU'RE MAKING AGIANST THESE PEOPLE THEN DON'T MAKE THEM!!

quote]

YERDADDY, i am not making any political advertisements, its obvious that you dont see the point of this thread.

Youre taking this thread and abusing the hell out of it. Cant you understand the context of the original post?

FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

[HBox]

While I would love to take credit for those two mock campaign posters, they are both from isthatlegal.org.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[zoom2457]

The victims in Oklahoma city were also working, Pearl Harbor had sailors working that day, the Pentagon had people working on 9/11.


The point was that these were government or military targets.

WTC victims were just civilians.

The point isn't that these people were working therefore that's worse. It's that they have nothing to do with politics or the government.

Personally I think that if people didn't lose anyone in WTC they shut their pie holes.

"Excuse me, excuse me I believe you have my stapler"

[WRESTLINGFAN]

[/quote]

The point was that these were government or military targets.

WTC victims were just civilians.

The point isn't that these people were working therefore that's worse. It's that they have nothing to do with politics or the government.

Personally I think that if people didn't lose anyone in WTC they shut their pie holes.
quote]

What you are saying is that killing government workers or people in the military is justified? Your reply has got to be one of the most idiotic replies ive seen

FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

[Yerdaddy]

Cant you understand the context of the original post?
No. I guess I can't. All I see is glib generalizations about the families of victims of the WTC attacks.

It seems to me that alot of the families of the World Trade Center victims are being very one sided.
For example?
However, the same people who get offended by the bush advertisement, want to show the same images on their terms.
Who are the people who are offended by the Bush ads and how have they used the same images on their own terms?

WTC victims families received huge compensations from the federal government in average about 1.6 million dollars, which doesnt include insurance policies, etc, and if the victim was a policeman,fireman,ems worker more money was given to those families, and countless funds and charities have been set up. If a soldier dies in Iraq, the family gets 6000 dollars for burial expenses from the federal gov't.
I assume you're saying the WTC victims' families shouldn't have recieved compensation. But you go on later to state that:
It seems to me that alot of the WTC families think that the loss of their loved ones takes precedence over victims of other terrible tragedies
What statements have you seen from victims' families that suggests that they "think that the loss of their loved ones takes precedence over victims of other terrible tragedies"? This is important because you're accusing the victims of the attack of being selfish and calous, and of exploiting their tradgedy for "their own purposes." Yet you haven't provided a single piece of evidence that that is the case. Instead you've made a series of glib generalizations and expected everyone to just agree with you. Not only do I not agree with you, I'm offended by the fact that you would lump together the victims of a tradgedy and accuse them of such things. I assume you're motivated by the criticism of some of them of the president's use of 9-11 footage in his campaign because of the timing of this diatribe, because your accusations mirror the accusations of the president's exploitation of the attacks, and because you go on to accuse Lincoln and FDR of doing the same thing, (with no evidence provided that they did, of course).

If you want to say that the victims' families shouldn't have been compensated, or that the WTC should have been rebuilt as it was by now, despite that some families opposing that, that's one thing. Those are valid points of discussionn. Even if you had done a little bit of work to determine who was opposed to the president's use of the ads while using the imagery on thier own, and criticized them specifically, it might have been a legitimate point. But you're going way beyond that, to the point of attacking these people unjustly, and I think that's wrong. Obviously you're not going to substantiate your accusations, so the best I can do is point out what I think is wrong with what you're doing here. It's an insult to these people whe have suffered enough without being accused of things that just aren't true, or that some minority of families might have done.

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[A.J.]

killing government workers or people in the military

And contractors. Don't forget us too.

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[Arienette]

What you are saying is that killing government workers or people in the military is justified? Your reply has got to be one of the most idiotic replies ive seeni'm pretty sure that that's not what he was saying. perhaps he meant that there might be more of a reason to worry about something like that happening to a military target than to an office building. obviously it's different than people signing up for the military itself but, this does remind me of the discussion that went on near the begining of this thread about how people in the military know what they are signing on for. while it's not the same, it may be a step in that direction.

i just really, really can't believe some of the stuff that i've been reading in this thread. you are putting victims of various american tragedies up against each other in a contest over what? who had it worst, who deserves more money, more sympathy? what are you really arguing about? they are all horrible. there's a reason why these things are considered tragedies in the first place. i feel badly for all victims and all victims' families. i'm not even sure why you're doing it, but what you're doing is sick.

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/aricheat.gif" height=100 width=300</img><br>the moon, it leaves silver but never sleep
and then the silver turns to gray
oh, stay with me, arienette, until the wolves are away
</center>

[Doomstone]

There was a terrorist act done in March of 1995 in Oklahoma City, which was done by an American, Wheres the compensation for that?



Right here:

Oklahoma City Victims Compensation Act (http://www.theorator.com/bills107/hr3633.html)



What you are saying is that killing government workers or people in the military is justified?

What you seem to be saying is that the families of the WTC attacks don't deserve compensation, because victims of other tragedies didn't get compensation (which is complete bullshit). A major reason why the do deserve compensation is because the government could have done more to prevent the attacks.

Why was the Hart Rudman report, which warned of terrorists planning on hijacking planes and crashing them into buildings, ignored by the Bush administration?

Why, after the 9/11 attacks, did Condi Rice say that "we never imagined that they would fly planes into buildings"?

Why is the Bush administration stonewalling the 9/11 commission, which is trying to determine where we went wrong before the attacks?

Our government was negligent, and that negligence led to the loss of 3,000 lives in the worst attack on United States soil in history. If a mother looks the other way as her child plays in traffic, should she be commended for taking him to the hospital or chastised for putting him in a dangerous position, then refusing to answer questions about why he was in the street in the first place?

And now you're complaining that the <b>victims</b> are out of line? You have some nerve. If I'd lost someone in the attacks and heard you say what you're saying here in person, you sir would become another sort of victim.

[A.J.]

This is important because you're accusing the victims of the attack of being selfish and calous, and of exploiting their tradgedy for "their own purposes." Yet you haven't provided a single piece of evidence that that is the case.

How about Lisa Beamer? Writing that book, being on TV all the time. I thought she was milking it just a bit. If I had lost a family member in NYC, DC or PA I'd probably would have been a little resentful of all the attention she was given.

And if I had lost someone, the only compensation I'd expect or want is that the person(s) responsible for the death of my loved one(s) would be hunted down and killed. That's just my personal opinion.

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[Arienette]

And if I had lost someone, the only compensation I'd expect or want is that the person(s) responsible for the death of my loved one(s) would be hunted down and killed. That's just my personal opinion.we all see how well that has worked out. it's an impossible thing, really, to try and compensate someone for the loss of a loved one. we do what we can, i guess.

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/aricheat.gif" height=100 width=300</img><br>the moon, it leaves silver but never sleep
and then the silver turns to gray
oh, stay with me, arienette, until the wolves are away
</center>

[A.J.]

we all see how well that has worked out.


It's a "work in progress" I suppose.

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[HBox]

It's a "work in progress" I suppose.

More like a "Let's wait until the Spring before the election before we really start trying.........in progress"

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[zoom2457]

I'm pretty sure that that's not what he was saying. perhaps he meant that there might be more of a reason to worry about something like that happening to a military target than to an office building. obviously it's different than people signing up for the military itself but, this does remind me of the discussion that went on near the begining of this thread about how people in the military know what they are signing on for. while it's not the same, it may be a step in that direction.


This is exactly what I was saying.

When you are talking about war and acts of war, traditionally civilians aren't targeted. This is what makes the WTC appear worse than the other tradegies.


WTC victims families received huge compensations from the federal government in average about 1.6 million dollars, which doesnt include insurance policies, etc, and if the victim was a policeman,fireman,ems worker more money was given to those families, and countless funds and charities have been set up.


So??? Does this mean they have to shut up and take it?


I do not want to sound insensitive to this horrible tragedy, but


Too late!



"Excuse me, excuse me I believe you have my stapler"

This message was edited by zoom2457 on 3-8-04 @ 9:08 AM

[Teenweek]

9/11 families too greedy (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25858)

I agree with this totally. 9/11 was the worst tragedy in our nations history. Something I think about everyday. But why do these people deserve more than for any other tragedy. So if a friend or family member gets 1.6 million for this but if I lose my wife or a parent to a drunk driving accident and get nothing. Does that seem fair. It is a tragic loss either way, except 9/11 families hit the jackpot.

[TheMojoPin]

That's not a very patriotic article. Did WorldNetDaily actually read it before they put it up?

And make up your mind. One sentence you say 9/11 was "the worst tragedy in our nation's history," and then you're comparing it to someone being killed in a drunk driving accident. You can't have it both ways.

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[FMJeff]

What if they are? Are you going to tell them to thier face? They'd smash your skull in.

What's the point of discussing something like this? It's out of your hands.

Some families lost thier breadwinners. Others lost mothers. If it was me, I'd try to get every fucking penny I could, regardless of what was owed to me...simply because my loved one's loss could've been prevented had our government done its job more thoroughly....Airport Security, CIA Intelligence, Federal Marshalls on the plane...this shit should've been fucking done YEARS AGO. I bet the cost of restitution toward these families are EQUAL TO IF NOT LESS than the cost of these security precautions.

It's all about the fucking bottom line...across the board...and a 3000 people died for it. Fuck the government. I'm gonna be greedy.

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[Furtherman]

I do not want to sound insensitive to this horrible tragedy, but It seems to me that alot of the families of the World Trade Center victims are being very one sided.




If it was up to the rest of New York, the World Trade Center would be rebuilt right now and not some artistic and flowery bullshit that is going up there now.


I think I have actually become dumber by reading quotes like these.

Boys, you want to think they are greedy? Fine, but keep it to yourself. There is no point, or respect, in voicing this opinion.


<IMG SRC="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=7">
...with thanks to JustJon

[angrymissy]

OK, let's take a look at a hypothetical situation.

Mr. X worked in the World Trade Center and earned $75,000/annually at the time of the attacks. He has a wife and 2 children.

Let's say Mr. X was 30 on 9/11 and would have worked until retirement age (65).

That right there is $2,625,000 in lost earnings for his family. That's assuming he stayed at a salary of $75,000/annually for 35 years (which is low-balling it a bit, you'd assume he would get some sort of raise every few years).

If you take into account the amount of money his company paid into his family's insurance coverage (average $400/monthly), that's another $168,000.

And the countless other benefits/bonuses, etc. that were taken away from his family that day, through no fault of his own.

That's from a strictly monetary viewpoint, not even taking into account the pain and suffering of his family.

I don't think they're being "greedy" at all.

<BR><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/missy2.gif" width="300" height="100" border="1">

[TooCute]

What's your evidence that Presidents Lincoln and FDR campaigned on Antietam and Pearl Harbor?

<img src="http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_030504/content/roll_2.Par.0001.ImageFile.jpg">

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[DarkHippie]

FDR was such a handsome man.

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<marquee>"Last night I went running through the screen door of discretion, for I woke up from a nightmare that I could not stand to see. You were a-wandering out on the hills of Iowa and you were not thinking of me." Dar Williams "Traveling III (Iowa)"</marquee>

[TheMojoPin]

I remember the Alamo, AND The Maine.



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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."