Explosions in Madrid...

[El Mudo]

*all my daydreams....are disasters...*

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200403/11/eng20040311_137240.shtml

http://midatlantic.comcastsportsnet.com/images/maryland_logo.gif
<marquee> M-A-R-Y-L-A-N-D MARYLAND...WILL WINNNNNN!! </marquee>

[jeffdwright2001]

NPR had a story on it this morning that talks a little bit about the history behind the conflicts and what's happened over the past few years.

It's an audio story:

Bob Edwards and reporter (http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=1760146)

[Furtherman]

"The attack occurred exactly 2 1/2 years after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United States - and there 911 days in between the terror attacks in Madrid and those in New York and Washington."

ETA or al-Qaida?

<IMG SRC="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=7">
...with thanks to JustJon

[sr71blackbird]

They are saying now that there is an al-Qaida link and I suspect that they attacked them just before the election to offset the election in Spain today in a bid to get the people in power who supported the US in the war in Iraq out of power. I think its going to be a growing trend among the terrorists.

<center>
http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=8 </center>


<center><B>My Thanks to Just Jon, Reefdwella, ADF, Monsterone and Katylina for the sig-pic help and creation!</B></center>
<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=1>( o Y o )</marquee>

[Heavy]

why would they give a fuck if Spain supports the war or not, or if those politicians stay in office?

http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=JohneeWadd
A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[high fly]

Couple-a hunnerd pacos, -DEAD!

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[DarkHippie]

I think we may be seeing another evolution in Al-Qaida.

In the past, they never used to work with non-Arabs. Here, they seem to be working with Eta for a common goal.

If this is true, it means that 1) we have done some serious damage to the "old guard" of Al-Qaida
2) the newbies that are filling the gaps are willing to "sell their power" to other terrorists groups making them even more supervilliany then they were before.

<IMG SRC=http://home.comcast.net/~jamesgpatton/eo.jpg>
<marquee>"Last night I went running through the screen door of discretion, for I woke up from a nightmare that I could not stand to see. You were a-wandering out on the hills of Iowa and you were not thinking of me." Dar Williams "Traveling III (Iowa)"</marquee>

[East Side Dave]

This just in...

more explosions......
























.....in my pants!








































.....I apologize.

<img src=http://www.richstillwell.com/ESD.gif>
Big Ass Mafia

Click this link (http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/thenight/ppr/index.shtml) to hear my show on Jersey's 90.5 The Night FM; (weeknights)-
Sunday night/Monday morning through Thursday night/Friday morning- 3 to 5 AM.

[furie]

why would they give a fuck if Spain supports the war or not, or if those politicians stay in office?


to strike terror in us and our allies.
they hate spain almost as much as they hate the US. it's not the nation they hate, it's western civilization.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/tucan.gif">
Thanks M.

[sr71blackbird]

Well, the socialist party won in Spain today. Its my guess that whatever countrys are helping us in Iraq and the mid east are likely going to be attacked just prior to their elections. Seeing Spain cave in like this will send the terrorists a clear message that these bombings work to acheive their goal, which is to isolate the US from the rest of the world, militarily and financially.

<center>
http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=8 </center>


<center><B>My Thanks to Just Jon, Reefdwella, ADF, Monsterone and Katylina for the sig-pic help and creation!</B></center>
<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=1>( o Y o )</marquee>

[Doomstone]

Well, the socialist party won in Spain today. Its my guess that whatever countrys are helping us in Iraq and the mid east are likely going to be attacked just prior to their elections. <b>Seeing Spain cave in like this will send the terrorists a clear message that these bombings work to acheive their goal, which is to isolate the US from the rest of the world, militarily and financially.</b>



They democratically voted out of office an unpopular party that didn't represent the views of the majority of the population of the country. How is that "caving in?"

[sr71blackbird]

Instead of unifying against a common agressor, they seemed compelled to oust the current political party and go to the opposite extreme. True, they voted their will, and they are free to do that, but why socialst?

<center>
http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=8 </center>


<center><B>My Thanks to Just Jon, Reefdwella, ADF, Monsterone and Katylina for the sig-pic help and creation!</B></center>
<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=1>( o Y o )</marquee>

[monsterone]

as much as alll catholics are not molesters, what the hell is wrong with muslims??? who do they like; they don't even like one another. they are a filthy pack of animals who should be destroyed.

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>
<font color=green size=7>M_O¥E.</font>
moe & horde king,
come back soon
<font color=black>"what did the five fingers say to the face?"</center>
[color=White]

[HBox]

Instead of unifying against a common agressor, they seemed compelled to oust the current political party and go to the opposite extreme. True, they voted their will, and they are free to do that, but why socialst?

And where does it say in the socialist agenda that they will cave in to terrorists? If you did some reading, you'd see that the soon-to-be Prime Minister said his first priority is terrorism. But some administrations can see that Al Qaeda does not equal Iraq. Maybe their citizens realized their fighting the wrong war?

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[Doomstone]

True, they voted their will, and they are free to do that, but why socialst?



Because they're the party opposing the one that led them into the Iraq war which 90% of the population was against, and lied about the bombings last week.

[furie]

what lie?


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/tucan.gif">
Thanks M.

[Se7en]

Spain: under new management.

Now, let the era of appeasement begin!

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/bigosmelt.jpg" width="300" height="125">
<br>
<br>
<marquee behavior=alternate bgcolor="#FFFFFF">CAST IN THE NAME OF GOD, YE NOT GUILTY</marquee> </font>
</center>

[HBox]

It's amazing how everybody here has turned into experts on Spanish politics.

what lie?

They originally claimed the ETA was responsible for the bombings and when pressed for proof, they produced none. Then, the Al Qaeda evidence surfaced. They were mad at what they perceived as an attempt to exploit the bombings for political gain.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

This message was edited by HBox on 3-14-04 @ 9:25 PM

[Doomstone]

what lie?



The claims by the Spanish government that the attacks were the solely work of Basque separatists and al-Qaeda was not involved, even after proof came out showing AQ's responsibility.

Imagine that...people holding their government responsible for their words...

[Yerdaddy]

This is what the bombings were about: <a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040315/ap_on_re_eu/spain_elections&cid=518&ncid=716" target="_blank">Socialists Oust Spain's Ruling Party</a>

Terrorist groups have learned to use attacks to effect the outcome of elections. In the past, in Kashmir, and Israel, they've used attacks to force hard-liners into office; the people are frightened and instinctively elect hard-liners who will enact harsh measures in a crackdown, and those same harsh measures will, in turn, justify further attacks and recruiting by the terrorists.

The ETA was probably not involved in this attack in any way. It is beyond the scale of anything they've ever done, and it would, (and probably will anyway), only serve to further alienate a group that barely exists today anyway. ETA instantly denied involvement, which is believable because what would be the point of creating terror and not taking credit?

It's almost certainly an al-Qaeda-alligned organization, who did take credit for it, and the overall strategic reason for it is to further isolate the US. Spain was targetted because it supported the Iraq war. It was 1) punishment for supporting the war, and 2) to end further support of it.

It was the first time a government that backed the Iraq war has been voted out of office. Incoming prime minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero has pledged to bring home the 1,300 troops Spain has stationed in Iraq when their tour of duty ends in July.

In this case Spain's elections were targeted because a majority of Spain's public was opposed to the war, while it's ruling party made the decision to support it. The attack served to make support for the war the dominant issue when people went to the polls a few days later. The fact that Spain was only a secondary player in the war also made support less important to the country, and more likely that it would decide to withdraw support. Certainly Britain and Spain are worried about the same thing happening, and thinking seriously about their relationship with the US.

I think the terrorist attacks in Iraq have shown this same pattern. Aside from the small-scale attacks on US troops and convoys, and mortar attacks into the Green Zone in Baghdad, the large-scale suicide and truck bombings over the last year have mostly been directed not at the US, but those seen to be working with us. The UN bombing, the Red Cross bombing, the multiple large bombings of Shiite targets, (the Shiites have largely not resisted the occupation), and the pattern of attacks on the new Iraqi security forces and administrative personnel, including the assassination of mayors, police chiefs and a member of the Iraqi Interim Governing Council, and large attacks on Polish and British forces, all have served to isolate the US in Iraq rather than to simply drive us out. The UN is virtually gone, the Red Cross and other humanitarian organizations are dramatically reduced from early in the occupation, Spain will now be gone. The goal right now of Islamic extremists is for our failure in Iraq, and isolating the US is probably the best way to do bring that about.

A few months ago I posted an article on al-Qaeda and the US elections, but I can't find it now. But I think we should be thinking about the same thing attempted here. An attack on the US this year, (especially close to the election), would probably work in favor of the Bush administration because we are overall still in favor of the Iraq war, and Bush is currently only getting favorable poll numbers on the War on Terrorism. Our reaction would probably be to keep republicans, and the Bush administration, in power because we associate them with strong defense, and a continuation of agressive foreign policies. I believe al-Qaeda will take this into consideration in deciding what outcome it wants in November, but I'm not sure what way I think it would want the election to go. My guess is that it would want to keep us coming at them, and Arab and Muslim countries, while driving our allies away, isolat

[furie]

that was the initial idea, before the investigation had begun. they revised their position within a day. It was a confusing time, i don't see it as lying. Do you remember the confusion following the WTC bombings? there were alot of stories floating around, and our government wasn't sure it was al-quada for a day or two. do that mean the first few reports were lies?


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/tucan.gif">
Thanks M.

[HBox]

I wasn't saying they were right in accusing the government of manipulating the attacks, that's just the way it seems to have gone down from reports I've read. I have no idea whether the government's actions were justified.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

This message was edited by HBox on 3-14-04 @ 10:19 PM

[A.J.]

I'm curious to see what effect this has in Italy. In recent years, the Italians have tried to be more active in foreign affairs joining the IFOR missions in the Balkans and now Iraq. Will the fear of terrorism in Italy force the government to scale back operations overseas? Or will it mean the end of Berlusconi's government in the next elections?

<IMG SRC="http://www.silentspic.com/images/sighost/ajdcsig.jpg">
A Skidmark production.

Red Sox Nation

[Se7en]

Here are some interesting poll results. (http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/9688.html)

As it's been established numerous times, online polls....well pretty much are inaccurate and inconsequential, but a 70-30 split is probably a decent indicator of American opinion on the issue. And, of course, it's CNN, whose viewers / staff tend to skew more towards the left (unlike FAUXNEWSLOL2004!!!), so the size of the split is even more interesting.

This whole Spain business leaves a bad taste in my mouth - it makes me tend to believe all of the stereotypes of weak-willed Europeans are really quite true after all. One bombing - just one - is apparently all it takes for an entire nation to decide to let terrorists dictate how they run their own country.

I'm going to have to take back some of the things I've been saying about France - at least they had an army to surrender to back in WW2. The Spaniards did it to a single bombing.

My guess is that it would want to keep us coming at them, and Arab and Muslim countries, while driving our allies away, isolating us as the lone bad-guys, (with Israel of course).

Let me ask you this question, in all seriousness: do you honestly think multinationalism will work regarding the war on terror?

Because if we make some great effort to persuade France or Germany or Belgium or etc. to play nice with us, and all it takes is one bombing to send them running away with their tails between their legs, it sort of completely defeats the purpose.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/bigosmelt.jpg" width="300" height="125">
<br>
<br>
<marquee behavior=alternate bgcolor="#FFFFFF">CAST IN THE NAME OF GOD, YE NOT GUILTY</marquee> </font>
</center>

[Yerdaddy]

A huge coordinated terrorist attack on American commuter trains four days before an election would have a huge impact on the outcome of our elections too. So I think the presumption of your question, that this proves that Europeans are cowards and politically inferior to us, is false.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
<marquee behavior=scroll>I'm chatty!-----http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/mulletfish.jpg</marquee>

[TheMojoPin]

I lay dibs that something similar could easily knock Blair on his ass up in the UK.

Scary.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[NewYorkDragons80]

What's the difference between IRA-Palestinian cooperation and al-Qaeda-ETA cooperation? As fanatic as al-Qaeda is, I think they are practical enough to know that siding with the ETA could be very advantageous.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

[Se7en]

A huge coordinated terrorist attack on American commuter trains four days before an election would have a huge impact on the outcome of our elections too. So I think the presumption of your question, that this proves that Europeans are cowards and politically inferior to us, is false.


How so?

You said yourself that attacks just days befor the election would probably help Bush stay in office. Not just because people would want to maintain the status quo (i.e. incumbent leadership), but because Bush is definitely hawkish in regards to terrorism (whereas Kerry doesn't quite seem to know which way he'll go).

The Spaniards didn't do that. When attacks came, they voted OUT the hawks. I don't think that makes them politically inferior to us, but IMO, I found that reaction on its face to be more cowardly than not.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/bigosmelt.jpg" width="300" height="125">
<br>
<br>
<marquee behavior=alternate bgcolor="#FFFFFF">CAST IN THE NAME OF GOD, YE NOT GUILTY</marquee> </font>
</center>

[TheMojoPin]

The Spanish people clearly want anti-terrorism agendas focused on INTERNAL terrorism as opposed to the Iraq war. The choice is theirs.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You might tell some lies about the good times we've had/But I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Recyclerz]

Se7en

Although I think there is a kernel of truth in what you're saying, I still believe you are operating from the faulty premise that Bush is waging the "War on Terror" correctly and that any deviance from his playbook of the part of anybody else in Christendom is a victory for the bad guys. I'll state my views as succinctly as I can and you (or anyone)can pick them apart or disregard them as you see fit.

- The "War on Terror" is either too amorphous a concept or too half-baked for people to get completely behind on an emotional and intellectual level. Terror, and who the terrorists are, are never adequately defined. Yes, al-Qaeda clearly fits the bill; how about the narco-Commie criminals who control half of Columbia? Robert Mugabe? China with all its missiles pointed at Taiwan? Is it a moral imperative that we conquer all these threats to humanity before we've won the War on Terror?
Isn't it easier to limit and define this struggle by saying there are a set of psychopaths, ambitious punks and malcontents sharing and mis-using the banner of Islam to attack the peoples of the industrialized (civilized if you prefer) world and that in defending ourselves we will hunt down and destroy those that have hurt us or who have the inclination and ability to hurt us in the future and will try to establish a fairer relationship with those in the Islamic world who may not like us but don't present a real threat to our well-being?

- The war in Iraq was an ill-considered gamble rather than a natural progression in the War on Terror. IMO, the supposed clear-eyed, tough-minded hombres of this administration (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, et al.) got played by Chalabi the way an emotionally needy 15 year old runaway gets played by a pimp in the Port Authority bus station.

- Now is the time for somebody in the anti-Iraq camp to step up and say that we can't allow differences on that issue to separate the US from the rest of civilization in the struggle with the sociopath Islamists. I hope Kerry takes advantage of this opportunity over here but there has to be somebody in Europe to take up the mantle as well. If this doesn't happen than the Madrid murders will be a real victory for the bad guys.

I've wasted enough bandwidth, I guess. ;)



[b]Sig-less in Gaza[b]

This message was edited by Recyclerz on 3-16-04 @ 12:32 PM

[Yerdaddy]

You said yourself that attacks just days befor the election would probably help Bush stay in office. Not just because people would want to maintain the status quo (i.e. incumbent leadership), but because Bush is definitely hawkish in regards to terrorism (whereas Kerry doesn't quite seem to know which way he'll go).

The Spaniards didn't do that. When attacks came, they voted OUT the hawks. I don't think that makes them politically inferior to us, but IMO, I found that reaction on its face to be more cowardly than not.

If al-Qaeda attacked us in order to reelect Bush, and our reaction to the attack is to reelect Bush, then we've done the same thing the Spaniards just did - voted out of fear. But the Spanish reaction can also be seen in in another way. The Spanish people were overwhelmingly opposed to the Iraq war, but the outgoing government decided to involve them in it anyway. In return they got attacked by al-Qaeda. Considering that the Spanish people didn't see Iraq as the "front lines in the War on Terrorism" before the war, the election is as likely a decision on the part of the people that the Iraq war does not make sense in the "War on Terrorism," and that blindly following the US is not going to defeat it. The fact that al-Qaeda could pull off such an attack two and a half years into the "War on Terrorism" would also suggest that the war, as it is being fought, is failing to protect them. I also don't see any evidence that the new government is going to be any less committed to the "War on Terrorism," only that they don't view the war in Iraq as a part of that war.

What's the difference between IRA-Palestinian cooperation and al-Qaeda-ETA cooperation? As fanatic as al-Qaeda is, I think they are practical enough to know that siding with the ETA could be very advantageous.
That may be the case, I just don't see it. But I'm speculating, of course. I think that by denying involvement it doesn't serve their interests. ETA is shrinking because of a rejection by the people of its tactics and by recent government crackdowns. I don't think that's a situation that would make them want to give the authorities an open hand to crush them, which ties to al-Qaeda and an attack this size would do. It's said however that the groups has split into a younger, more radical group, so it's more unpredictable, but there's also the small size of the group. I don't think al-Qaeda needs the help, especially from non-Muslims, which I don't know of al-Qaeda ever doing. It certainly needs to be checked out.


<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
<marquee behavior=scroll>I'm chatty!-----http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/mulletfish.jpg</marquee>

This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 3-16-04 @ 4:00 PM

[NewYorkDragons80]

It's totally my speculation too. I heard some murmurs in the news about ETA and al-Qaeda cooperation, but nothing solid. You're right about the non-Muslim thing too. I just think that in the mind of an extremist, they would see Spain as a highly valuable symbolic target. It's where the Muslims managed to occupy a Western European nation for 800 years.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

[high fly]

I don't think Al Qaeda needs ETA to operate in Spain.
From what I've read, up till now at least, AQ has worked only with like-minded radical Islamic fundamentalists.




" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

This message was edited by high fly on 3-16-04 @ 8:26 PM

[HBox]

Perhaps this is why Spanairds voted the way they did. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4542904/)

And I had oh so hoped they were a weak, hopeless nation of appeasers.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US