Hamas Leader killed

[HBox]

Hamas Leader Killed (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4575552/)

Uh oh.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[schmega]

hah!

[FUNKMAN]

looks like he could've starred in Lord of The Rings or Lord Of The Terrorist Ring... the homicide bombings will always continue so why not start taking out their top people...

i wouldn't think there was some code before this where they would agree not to take out each others top people...

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/03/21/yassin/vert.yassin.closeup.ap.jpg

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[Mike Teacher]

Uh oh.


Well done HBOX. I logged on expecting a HUGE thread on this. This guy was basically evil personified, and the hard-corers are saying this is the 'thing he always dreamed of' or something around those lines.

----

I'm trying to think of what to say regarding what's going to happen next; but I think the above quote does better then anyhing I can conjure.

This is HUGE

The bombings since 2000 have been horrific enough; what will the reprisals consist of.

And oh man; I have a bad feeling about the reprisals.

----

I've concluded Human Nature is not fixitive. When a person states that suicide bombing is against HN I can't agree anymore. I think there are many HNs, and this brings up a few dozen Qs, at least in this cranium.

The valuation of life and self-preservation would seem to be Human Nature. The Hamas bombings [any suicide bombing] show a nature of valuing the death of others over one's own life.

Michael Shermer is someone who would Kill on a radio show. He has written some fantastic books on Skepticism, Science and Religion, and most recently: The Science of Good and Evil. I've seen him speak in front of 500, and in my class.

PLEASE Visit the Skeptic dot Com website; there's a Wonderful de-construction of The Passion of The Christ; comparing the movie to the exant extra-biblical data on events 2000 years ago. Wonderful.


Skeptic: The Passion: What really Happened? and The Science of Good and Evil (http://www.skeptic.com)

[EDIT: From the Forward:

Embedded within are questions that have occupied the greatest minds in history: Is it in our nature to be moral or immoral? If we evolved by natural forces then what was the natural purpose of morality?
If we live in a determined universe, then how can we make free moral choices?

Does evil exist, and if so, what is the nature of evil? Why do bad things happen to good people?

Is there justice in the world beyond the social order? If there is no outside source to validate moral principles, does anything go? Can we be good without God?].

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This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 3-22-04 @ 9:02 AM

[TheMojoPin]

Mike, did you see the analysis I posted about "The Passion" in one of the older threads about the film?

Check it out. Good stuff.

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[Mike Teacher]

Nope mojo. feel free to move my thread on over that way...

gonna go check it out

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[reeshy]

Mike, did you see the analysis I posted about "The Passion" in one of the older threads about the film?


That's why I love Mojo!!! He's the best!!!!

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[Bestinshow]

what I am more concerned about is to see the reaction of the regular people in Palestine, not the other terrorists, who obviously are going to be angry. Everyone is saying the average person in Palestine is not proterrorism. If the general population does not have an outcry, this will definitely, back up that conclusion. And it is the regular people doing the peace negotiating, not the terrorists. Hopefully , it will not affect them.

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 3-22-04 @ 12:50 PM

[A.J.]

i wouldn't think there was some code before this where they would agree not to take out each others top people...

Israel just employed the Michael Corleone Gambit: they just "settled all family business."

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[whoopsy]

Sharon and Bush seem to be using the same playbook..

I think this time brute force will actually decrease terrorism, not incense a people and inspire a new wave of attacks. Yes, I'm sure Israel is much safer now...

[FUNKMAN]

Sharon and Bush


whenever i see these two words i'm thinkin "Basic Instinct"...

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[WRESTLINGFAN]

Hopefully he will be burning in hell still confined to that wheelchair

FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

[FUNKMAN]

Hopefully he will be burning in hell still confined to that wheelchair


he will burn in the lake of fire and receive three roadflare enemas per day...

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[keithy_19]

I was going upstairs to sleep and then I saw this on the news. Good stuff to fall asleep too.

It's kind of Ironic though. He died being blown up just like palestinians did. The only difference is that Israel didn't waste a life during this bombing.

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[Yerdaddy]

Sharon and Bush


whenever i see these two words i'm thinkin "Basic Instinct"...

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bravo sir

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[Se7en]

Shit like this is part of why I love Israel so goddamn much.

Nothing left but the fucker's head. Hit DEAD ON by a missile strike.

But even that death is too good for the likes of him.

Yes, I'm sure Israel is much safer now...

Maybe the Israelis should take a page out of Europe's playbook and just give Hamas a great big hug. Cause maybe then they won't want to kill the Jews, right!!!

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[HBox]

The only difference is that Israel didn't waste a life during this bombing.

They fired a rocket into a crowd of people leaving a mosque and killed 5 other people.

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[WRESTLINGFAN]

[/quote]
They fired a rocket into a crowd of people leaving a mosque and killed 5 other people
[/quote]


The other people that were killed were his bodyguards. the Israelis made sure that women and children were'nt killed unlike what Hamas does

FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

This message was edited by WRESTLINGFAN on 3-22-04 @ 10:22 PM

[ChickenHawk]

Good.

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[HBox]

The other people that were killed were his bodyguards. the Israelis made sure that women and children were'nt killed unlike what Hamas does

Yassin, a quadriplegic who used a wheelchair, and seven other people were killed, including several bodyguards. Seventeen people were wounded.

Looks like I was wrong. It was seven killed, not all of whom were bodyguards. How could they possibly make sure they didn't hit women and children when they fired a rocket into a crowd of people leaving a mosque? Does the fact that they had a guilty target or that there wasn't someone strapped to their explosives make it any more acceptable?

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[Bestinshow]

Looks like I was wrong. It was seven killed, not all of whom were bodyguards. How could they possibly make sure they didn't hit women and children when they fired a rocket into a crowd of people leaving a mosque? Does the fact that they had a guilty target or that there wasn't someone strapped to their explosives make it any more acceptable?


I think if we could get Bin laden by a small group of people coming out of a mosque, I bet a small fortune we would take it. Unfortunately, outside of a mob hit, that is the only way to take out an enemy. And last I checked, Luka Brotsa was dead. This is a war, and unfortunately, as ugly as it sounds, there is colateral damage.

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[TheMojoPin]

So Israel is encouraging possibly the biggest and most brutal wave of Palestinian reprisals in recent memory...so they could bomb the fuck out of a figurehead, at best? I'm reading all the articles about this, and I can't find anything that indicates that killing this guy actually served a tactical purpose. He sounds like the ancient founder of Hamas that was wheeled out to rally support when it was useful. What did he actually DO in his later years, if anything?

I'm just saying, if Israel has to bomb people, why don't they bomb USEFUL people?

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[DarkHippie]

Sharon just made sure that he'll be in power for a long time.

Hamas will now go even more hard line. Who can take Israel through these times of troubles? Only the War Hero Ariel Sharon, who backs down to no one!!

I'm remembering what Yerdaddy said about terrorist groups influencing elections in order to get hardliners in power, therefore justifying the need for battle. I think it works here too.

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[ChickenHawk]

He founded a major terrorist organization. This guy deserved to die folks. There's really nothing to debate.

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[A.J.]

why don't they bomb USEFUL people?


"...old people are useless. Aren't they? Aren't they? Huh? Yes they are! Yes they are! Tee hee --"

http://www.monstromart.com/framegrabs/1F09/44.jpg

From the other thread: "Hamas vows to 'shake Israel like an earthquake' "

Why not shake them like a Polaroid picture?

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[TheMojoPin]

He founded a major terrorist organization. This guy deserved to die folks. There's really nothing to debate.

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Of course there is. What does his death serve to accomplish? Again, everything I'm reading indicates he was a figurehead at best the last few years. I'm not saying the Israelis can't hunt these guys down...but why not kill someone who is actually in charge of things, as opposed to some crippled feeb who can't even wipe himself? How is THAT worth the inevitable reprisals? How do you explain to the Israeli citizens that WILL die because of this that THEIR deaths are over the death of someone strategically worth zilch?

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[high fly]

Am I the only one to notice the message of support sent to Hamas by that Sistani bloke in Iraq?

" and they ask me why I drink"
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Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[smeagol]

DEAD HAMAS GUY: "So this is heaven, where are my 70 virgins?"

"GOD": "Right over here, you have a choice."

DEAD HAMAS GUY: "A choice! Very nice!"

"GOD": "Yes, 70 Goats, 70 Donkeys, or 70 Camels."

DEAD HAMAS GUY: "WHAAAAAAT???!!"

"GOD": "Yes, and I have a choice too. I choose YOU to be the female."

[HBox]

I think if we could get Bin laden by a small group of people coming out of a mosque, I bet a small fortune we would take it.

Well, my response goes to what Mojo was saying. I'm not going to mourn for the guy, but what strategic purpose did this killing serve? If he was still valuable to Hamas, that's one thing. But he was apparently a figurehead, and I don't see how Israel is safer now. I'm still holding my breath, waiting for something awful to happen, and for the cycle to continue.

But the other point I was making was that no one's hands are clean in this mess.

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[Mike Teacher]

Mojo has a good point.

From what I've gathered, it wasn't so much that he was a figurehead, it was that he was THE Figurehead.

I'm guessing anyone fanatical enough to blow themselves up also has that fanatical trait to blindly follow leaders. And it sounds like he was THE man, who represented all that these psychopaths believe in.

-----

On another note; I just cruised by Drudge and there a link that says: "Arafat Next?"

And I was like, Holy SHIT I totally forgot about him in all this mid-eastern insanity. Is it just me, or might he be a MOST FUCKING SCARED GUY On the Planet right about now?



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[newport king]

from today's NY daily news...


It was Yassin who sanctioned or personally ordered almost every one of the major terrorist raids in Israel in recent years. Nearly 1,000 Israeli men, women and children died on buses, in cafes, in synagogues or in their own homes. It was Yassin who taught an entire generation of young Palestinians to hate, inspiring teenagers to abandon their families and become human bombs. It was Yassin who gave the stamp of approval to using female suicide bombers in violation of his religion's tenets.

good enough for me.

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[ChickenHawk]

Of course there is. What does his death serve to accomplish? Again, everything I'm reading indicates he was a figurehead at best the last few years. I'm not saying the Israelis can't hunt these guys down...but why not kill someone who is actually in charge of things, as opposed to some crippled feeb who can't even wipe himself? How is THAT worth the inevitable reprisals? How do you explain to the Israeli citizens that WILL die because of this that THEIR deaths are over the death of someone strategically worth zilch?

I don't follow your logic. So if we found a serial killer TODAY who killed 45 people in the 1960's, but no one else since, we shouldn't worry about him? Just let him go, 'cuz he hasn't killed anyone in several years? His crimes are forgiven because he's old and no longer poses a direct threat? What exactly is the number of years a criminal has to wait before he's no longer considered accountable?

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[TheMojoPin]

Not really an applicable analogy here.

Israel attacks Palestinians? Israelis die. It's that simple. It hasn't not happened yet, and it's not going to not happen here.

You're also talking about a situation where someone would be arrested and prosecuted for their former crimes, NOT fragging him in the middle of whatever town he was living in. Blowing up a "former" serial killer isn't going to lead to the countrymen and possibly families of those behind the attack (Or even the attackers themselves) being dead.

Here's as simple as I can make it...Israelis are going to die because this man was killed. I'd like to think that if the Israeli government is willing to accept this, they'd want their people to be killed over a strike that served SOME kind of strategic value. Israelis are now going to die over nothing, and it's appalling. I'm not defending this guy by any means, he's a scumbag, but godDAMN, is he, right now at this time in history, worth the deaths of more Israelis?

Again, Israel attacks, Israelis get killed. It's going to happen. Given that certainty, wouldn't you think the Israeli government would pick targets that might actually LESSEN the chance of this happening? Killing the man they did serves to do NOTHING except up the body count, period.

Tell me this...what was accomplished by killing this guy outside of "feeling good?" Kill someone important instead.

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[Se7en]

Israel attacks Palestinians? Israelis die. It's that simple. It hasn't not happened yet, and it's not going to not happen here.

Well then, the solution is simple.

The Israelis should never be mean to the Palestinians, especially their terrorists, and in fact from here on out shower them with love and affection. And puppies.

That'll win them over.

And if it doesn't - why, the U.N. will save the day!

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[TheMojoPin]

Dude, come on, totally needless spin.

Every one of my posts I've said the Israelis SHOULD be killing these terrorists...I'm just saying in THIS case the gains seem slim to nil, at best, and the consequences far too great for it to be just brushed off as many seem willing to do.

I'm saying that I assume the Israeli government realizes like I do that their actions will lead to reprisals and dead Israelis. It's inevitable. I'd also like to assume that that same government would pick and choose their targets a little more carefully given this inevitability.

But whatever, go ahead, spin away...

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 3-23-04 @ 11:10 PM

[Recyclerz]

I never thought that I would ever be defending anything Ariel Sharon did (and I only do so half-heartedly here) but here goes my cherry.

This guy Yassin may have been a feeb, but he was an evil feeb and an EFFECTIVE evil feeb at that. Hamas is not only a terrorist organization but also the primary social welfare provider for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. So with one hand they provide food, shelter, jobs to a desperate people (unlike Arafat, who takes all the money destined for aid and pockets it) and gain credibility and brownie points with the average Palestinian because they are not MATERIALLY corrupt; on the other hand, they use that credibility to push a twisted, evil world view to convince ignorant, trusting people (including CHILDREN!) that it is a duty of their religion and to their society to go and murder Israeli civilians. (Imagine if the Salvation Army here were taking those Xmas dollars and training the poor and hungry to go kill Canadians.) I don't think the Israeli government's hands are clean but Hamas is just plain reprehensible.

Now to the theory: The Rabin/Barak plan was to make Arafat a partner of Israel and that both sides would work to create a stable, civil society for the Palestians in the West Bank and Gaza. Obviously, this would have been beneficial to both sides; the quid pro quo was that Arafat had to use his thugs to go and "whack" Hamas and Hezzbollah in the areas that would be under his control. He didn't have the balls to try, leading to his marginalization and the current state of fucked-upednness. Sharon's strategy (if you can call it that) is that if he kills off all the extremist Islamist leaders who really do want all the Israelis dead, there may be a chance for some moderate Palestinians to step up and take the deal that Arafat was offered.

Now just because this action isn't completely arbitrary doesn't mean it was wise. Given that Israel's only real ally has kind of got its hands full on the other side of southwest Asia at the moment, it doesn't seem to me that this was the best time to start a game of Chicken to the death.

PS

And no High Fly, you're not the only one to notice who Sistani is rooting for.



[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]

This message was edited by Recyclerz on 3-24-04 @ 12:49 AM

[monsterone]

From the other thread: "Hamas vows to 'shake Israel like an earthquake' "



when aren't they threating to do that? seriously.

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[Tenbatsuzen]

The rockets caused a Yassin-ation... ge ge ge.

What? What?



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[whoopsy]

- Recyclerz -

that was a great fuckin' post (especially on how a Hamas maintains a grip on the Palestinian people), but I'm with Mojo on this one. I think the Sharon strategy that you mention:


is that if he kills off all the extremist Islamist leaders who really do want all the Israelis dead, there may be a chance for some moderate Palestinians to step up and take the deal that Arafat was offered.


makes it a hell of a lot more difficult for Palestinian moderates to step up, pushes more moderates into the extremist camp, and certainly puts Israeli citizens at even more risk than before - making a martyr out of Yassin was what he wanted anyway. And that Barak/Arafat is far off the table - I remember Arafat announcing well after the fact that "ok, now we accept it" with the response being "too late, dick". And I thought the sticking point was the refugee problem, not having to whack the terrorist orgs.. too tired to look it up now. Anyway, no need to discuss it, didn't you hear?

Muppets Bringing Peace to the Middle East (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=638&ncid=638&e=8&u=/nm/20040323/en_nm/television_muppets_dc_2)

[monsterone]

Muppets Bringing Peace to the Middle East (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=638&ncid=638&e=8&u=/nm/20040323/en_nm/television_muppets_dc_2)



and they a.i.d.s. muppet in africa did so well.






The rockets caused a Yassin-ation... ge ge ge.



taken straight from the vos joke book...

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This message was edited by monsterone on 3-24-04 @ 1:28 AM

[Yerdaddy]

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18979-2004Mar23.html" target="_blank">Two Hard-Liners Chosen To Succeed Hamas Leader</a>

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[zoom2457]

Here's as simple as I can make it...Israelis are going to die because this man was killed. I'd like to think that if the Israeli government is willing to accept this, they'd want their people to be killed over a strike that served SOME kind of strategic value. Israelis are now going to die over nothing, and it's appalling. I'm not defending this guy by any means, he's a scumbag, but godDAMN, is he, right now at this time in history, worth the deaths of more Israelis?


The Israelis are being blown up over nothing anyway.

Whenever there is a cease fire, a bomb eventually goes off in Israel, which sets Israel off. Sometimes it takes two or three bombs before Israel strikes back.

Maybe Israel knows more than you do about who is ordering suicide bombers like egg fucking mcmuffins.


"Excuse me, excuse me I believe you have my stapler"

[Reephdweller]

Hamas Says It Will Target Sharon, Not U.S.


GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - The new Hamas leader in Gaza said on Wednesday the group had no plans to attack American targets, pulling back from retaliatory threats by the group's armed wing after Israel's assassination of the Hamas founder.


full story (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040324/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians&cid=540&ncid=716)

Hopefully this will be true and innocent Americans won't be harmed.

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[samnyc]

They should have done this a long time ago. Palestine will not function as a self governing state as long as these crazies are in charge. Listen guys I have over 400 posts now so what do I get?

[TheMojoPin]

Here's as simple as I can make it...Israelis are going to die because this man was killed. I'd like to think that if the Israeli government is willing to accept this, they'd want their people to be killed over a strike that served SOME kind of strategic value. Israelis are now going to die over nothing, and it's appalling. I'm not defending this guy by any means, he's a scumbag, but godDAMN, is he, right now at this time in history, worth the deaths of more Israelis?


The Israelis are being blown up over nothing anyway.

Whenever there is a cease fire, a bomb eventually goes off in Israel, which sets Israel off. Sometimes it takes two or three bombs before Israel strikes back.

Maybe Israel knows more than you do about who is ordering suicide bombers like egg fucking mcmuffins

You're missing the point. I've said again and again that Israelis WILL die and that they WILL die no matter who their government targets in these strikes. MY point is that since this is a certainty, the Israeli government should "pick its punches" and really nail the Palestinian extremist groups where it counts. I'm not for a second saying they SHOULDN'T get these guys...just get the RIGHT ones since it's guarenteed that your people will die no matter what.

And there's no way that Yassin was the planner behind the bulk of the attacks against Israel in the last 3+ years. None. The guys actually ordering and organizing these things aren't secrets or anything. They're known not only to the governments, but much of the public as well. The trick is just being able to find in them, and then find them in a scenario where an attacks on them will kill a minimum of innocent people. These guys aren't dumb. They tend to appear only in places and at events where they are surrounded by people and any strike on them would result in tremendous casualities. But they ARE known, and Yassin hadn't been one of them for years.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Recyclerz]

And there's no way that Yassin was the planner behind the bulk of the attacks against Israel in the last 3+ years. None.


Mojo, logistically I'm sure you're right. (Although some of the pro-Israel talking heads in the media are saying he was still giving the final thumbs up "halal" to all of the suicide attacks.) My apologia (such as it is) for Sharon's action is that Yassin was the guy that created the political context wherein suicide bombing of civilians was not only "OK" for Palestinians but was in fact a religious/political/moral imperative. As a living symbol of that flaming, stinking chunk of evilness Yassin was still dangerous.

Of course, I doubt he is any less dangerous as a "martyr" for that fucked-up cause because its bench seems pretty deep.
:(



[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]