Declassified Memo Said Al Qaeda Was in U.S.

[curtoid]

President Bush was warned a month before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks that the FBI had information that terrorists might be preparing for a hijacking in the United States and might be targeting a building in Lower Manhattan. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2368-2004Apr10.html)



http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v64/curtoid/45.gif
[b][i]Much thanks to M1 for the siggie...!i][b]

[WRESTLINGFAN]

As a Republican, this looks like the final nail in Bush's re relection campaign coffin, Kerry is going to run away with this election

FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

[sr71blackbird]

Your link message is misleading, the article quotes this;


The memo's details confirm that the Bush administration had no specific information regarding an imminent attack involving airplanes as missiles, Thompson said.


The information in the memo indicated that Al Qaeda might hijack a plane, or it might use explosives, and further, that the guys they recieved a tip that said there was casing of federal buildings in NY City were merely tourists taking pictures. In my estimation, the only way they could have prevented the attack would have been to ground every flight for 3 months after that memo was read, and do you know what would have happened if they had done that, based upon the sketchy information they had? The 4 days that the airlines were grounded alone nearly put many carriers out of buisness.. Fed Ex, UPS, DHL, all the commuter flights and regular flights..think about it. It probably would have been the end of American avation and seriously hurt our economy. Plus, the memo indicated that expolsives were to be used, and in the end, they werent. When we think about all that could have been done, we have to take into account what the result of that action is. Based upon that memo, I dont see what Bush could have done to prevent anything.

<center>
http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=8 </center>


<center><B>My Thanks to Just Jon, Reefdwella, ADF, Monsterone and Katylina for the sig-pic help and creation!</B></center>
<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=1>( o Y o )</marquee>

[Mike Teacher]

With all respect to Curtoid; this is about as newsworthy as what it is; a note saying known terrorists might be planning attacks.

-China

-Israel/Palesine

-North Korea

-Former Soviet States with Nukes

There's four more for starters, folks, and the Prez, every Prez, gets briefings about 'possibilities' as often as they want. Because they are issued Constantly, about the Mid East, the above mentioned ones [three with 100% absolute definte nuke force], and anyone of the DOZENS of countries.

So; the chatter spikes and they issue this.

And I just read the memo twice, and that memo says absolutlely Nothing about using planes in an Offensive way. Show Me.

If you're gonna quote this:

Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.

realize that 'or' exists folks.

In fact, so do the words 'patterns' 'suspicious' 'preparations'

Come on; why does everyone keep swinging at these pitches in the dirt?

Why does anyone think any administration, dem or rep, could have prevented 9/11, given the WEAK evidence, and lets me repeat Weak Evidence, of that memo. Why does it stand out from the others? It's date. Change that date to another year, and it's what it is; a memo about a 'possibilities'

If people want to get all political, which this shouldn't, the memo could be seen as a laundry list of activities Clinton should have stopped.

The Monday Morning QB-ing is so easy. Doesn't anyone remember the era know as before 9/11?

[Edit: Ah, SR71 remembers. Correct-a-mundo. Say the Prez, any prez, came on and said 'we have a theory, that maybe terrorists are gonna hijack a plane; in fact, it's likely.' What would we do? Ground the flights? Would the US people have liked that? No flights? Curtailed flights? Double and triple waiting times? Puh-leeeeeeze.]

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 4-11-04 @ 10:55 AM

[reeshy]

I quite agree with SR71. A lot of conjecture went into the analysis of the memo. Should-haves, could-haves., shouldn't-haves will get us nowhere. OK...here's a little hypothesis...supppose Bush comes out tomorrow and takes the blame for everthing since the Civil War...now what?....what would that solve....Our problem is today...not yesterday!!!!!

[center]<IMG SRC=http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/guests/mbt_sig.jpg>
[center] I KNOW KARATE...VOODOO TOO!!!
Thanks to Monsterone!!

[Dudeman]

just because the date, time, method, and location are not spelled out does not mean lack of action is acceptable.



-I'll log off now, and listen to your
response.-

[BoondockSaint]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

http://img2.photobucket.com/albums/v11/squrl/albundy.bmp
Thanks to monsterone for the sig!

[reeshy]

just because the date, time, method, and location are not spelled out does not mean lack of action is acceptable.


OK...what would you have done that wasn't already done?????

[center]<IMG SRC=http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/guests/mbt_sig.jpg>
[center] I KNOW KARATE...VOODOO TOO!!!
Thanks to Monsterone!!

[Se7en]

Mike the Teacher gets the gold star for giving the best non-partisan answer possible.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/7_sig.gif" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos.
I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>

[Mike Teacher]

Se7en; thanx, but thats way too generous.

OK; let me lay down real quick what happened, exactly, with 9/11: A failure to plan for the double-edged sword of technology.

Because if there EVER was an example of how the sword cuts both ways, you have:

-a Modern Jet Aircraft. These have technology that far surpasses that which landed men on the moon. The damn things are so well designed, so well tested; the things are subjected to forces unimagined for commuter travel, they can fly and land themselves if needed. My experience; my father was a Captain for NY airways, after two USMC stints flying fixed-wing, but mostly Helos, in Korea 1952-55. He was never safer, then when in a commuter plane. My fifth birthday? Me and my brothers and my dad, flying around Glenview Naval Airbase. I didn't know untillater my Mother physically got on her knees and prayed that day.

-plastic knives. OK I have quite a few scalpels, dissection and all that. They make them non-metal too.

What you had was, and this is a De-Construction of the Most Obtuse that even I think it's nuts, but:

A group of motivated people with plastic knives could takeover a group of the above mentioned aircraft; and then fly said aircraft, against the wishes of everyone else, wherever they may.

I'm going hypothetical here, because that is NOT what happened that day. But, and I say Now, Today: That Possibility Still Exists.

Like Apollo 1; Apollo 13; The Challenger Launch Decision, and scores of Aircraft Disasters; we see that Murphy wasn't an optimist. Murphy was a Tautology.

People often think Murphy's law is about the Probability of Things Going Wrong. Murphy's son, and yes there was a real Murphy, explains his Father was talking not about the probability of the worst case scenarios occurring, but the INEVITABILITY of such.

a] Things WILL Go wrong
b] All the planning in the world can't stop a] from occurring

What I'm trying to do is shift this away from politics, and parties because thats not what it's about. It's about What in the Blue Fuck are we going to do not if, but When this happens again. And i Loathe to say When, but for Fuck Sake History is just filled with this.

We can give up commercial air travel.

We would survive it. We survived its complete shutdown, first ever in history [predict THAT ONE? Anyone?]. Oh, we would suffer tremendously, jobs lost, inconveniences. But I see No other way of Erasing the risk of another hostile attempt to overtake a plane. I don't.



<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 4-11-04 @ 12:14 PM

[Yerdaddy]

1. Who is suggesting that we give up air travel? Or even that that would have been the only way to prevent 9-11?

What could have been done to prevent 9-11, had there been sufficient concearn about air safety? The things that were done after 9-11, (none of which included abandoning air travel or grounding air traffic beyond the 4 days following 9-11): Strengthening cockpit doors, reimplimenting the Federal Air Marshall program, addressing and correcting an airport security checkpoint system that was allowed to be run by the airlines using little more than minimum wage workers at the gate, addressing and correcting the bureaucratic and legal problems that kept the intelligence community from sharing information with each other and the FAA and from addressing the threats that we now know were looming. For more ideas on what could have been done read the <a href="http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements.htm" target="_blank">9-11 Commission's "staff statements"</a> to-date that address what did and did not happen on 9-11.

The ideas in this thread suggesting that nothing could have been done short of mothballing the US airline industry is a 747-sized red herring.

2. I also don't hear anyone claiming that the president could have prevented 9-11, or that this August 6 PDB is a clear warning of exactly what was going to happen on 9-11. What it does represent is a piece of the puzzle of what the president knew about al-Qaeda's plans and operations within the United States before 9-11 and what he was doing about it.

This document does, however, stand in contrast to <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A61252-2004Apr8?language=printer" target="_blank">the testimony of Rice:</a>

RICE: "You said, did it not warn of attacks. It did not warn of attacks inside the United States. It was historical information based on old reporting. There was no new threat information. And it did not, in fact, warn of any coming attacks inside the United States.

Clearly this was not a "historical information." Clearly it did "warn of attacks inside the United States."

One of the main concearns I have is that the White House made the deal that Rice would testify only on condition that no other White House official would be asked to testify publicly or under oath. But if it takes a public hearing under oath to get a piece of information like this PDB made available to the public and the commission, what other information is being kept by the White House from the public and the commission? This administration has resisted the creation of this commission, has resisted turning over documents to it, and has avoided allowing public and sworn testimony of its members to the commission. I see that as the problem that this document respresents. It seems to me that if the Bush administration had its way, the American public would have to accept its version of events before, during and after 9-11, and we'd have to wait until 30 years from now until documennts like this one are declassified and historians can piece together what happened and what should have been done to prevent it from happening again.

In a nutshell, this document should be a call for more cooperation with the commission from the administration, and more documents like this one being made public.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">

[furie]

this is old news and not very damming.
I have mention before that while in INS and later FAA, we constantly received alerts like this. My favorite read like "credible information that attacks are planned on US interests either inside the US, or outside." Ok, that's the entire planet. and that would be the entire alert. How do you act on that?


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/supper_lee.jpg">

<marquee>I went home with a waitress, the way I always do. How was I to know she was with the Russians too?"
</marquee>

[Mike Teacher]

1. Who is suggesting that we give up air travel?


Me!

I want those MagLev Trains, baby. You just build tracks between the major cities and put a few tens of thousands of MagLev tracks all around, and then you put it all in a tube and suck the air out so theres no air resistance, and you got yourself a ride as fast as a jet skimming an inch or two off the ground! WooooHOOOOOOO

Hey I can dream; and sadly, it's utterly doable. For gazillions, sure but...

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[TheMojoPin]

It seems to me that if the Bush administration had its way, the American public would have to accept its version of events before, during and after 9-11, and we'd have to wait until 30 years from now until documennts like this one are declassified and historians can piece together what happened and what should have been done to prevent it from happening again.

This all sounds so familiar...can't...stop...deja...VU!!!

http://www.fuchu.or.jp/~d-logic/image/warren.jpg

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Mike Teacher]

Another reason I want MagLev Trains instead of planes.

This stupid site!!

Be warned; it has videos of air crashes. And audio of voice recorders.

Air Disaster dot com (http://airdisaster.com)

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[sr71blackbird]

I dont know why I think of stuff like this, but I take the train to work every day, I always ride in the first car because where I get off its closest to the stairs I use. I look from the door towards the front on the train where I can see out the window as we head along the tracks. I notice that the driver sits in a little phone booth sized compartment and the door is often ajar or even wide open. I wonder if someone really wanted to, how hard would it be for a terrorist to take that guy out and take control of the train and send it speeding along into the tunell into the end of the platform or worse. I hope that there is some kind of way that the train could be diverted by controllers outside the train who could direct it off onto a siding or something, but it still seems to be a very real possibility. I guess I never would have even thought along these lines before 9/11, and Im sure others have noticed it as well. Hopefully benevolent people.
Getting back to topic, without information that certian flight or airline was the target, or building, or when, or how, speculating now, 3 years later on it affords us a certain amount of 20/20 hindsight that really isnt fair to judge Bush on, based on the information he had on hand at the time. Invading Iraq seems more like a determination by him to avenge the attempt on his fathers life by Saddam. Thats a more compelling argument than what could have been done pre 9/11. Again, without specifics, we really are unable to act upon all tips and information effectively.
Political correctness at the time was such that if they investigated anyone going to flight training school who wasnt a true blue American it would have opened whoever was doing the investigation to endless lawsuits of discrimination anyway. Often times to me it is like we set ourselves up to prevent acts of self preservation.

<center>
http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=8 </center>


<center><B>My Thanks to Just Jon, Reefdwella, ADF, Monsterone and Katylina for the sig-pic help and creation!</B></center>
<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=1>( o Y o )</marquee>

[FUNKMAN]

there's probably one point that everyone can agree on and that is 'politics brings out the best and worst in people' ... there is no way you can directly blame George Bush for 9/11, if he knew exactly what was going to happen he would have done everything in his power to stop it.

But as Politics goes, "it was on his watch' and he's gonna have to take some blame for not doing more with the information he possessed.

Guess you can say he also had 'weak' information regarding WMD's in Iraq but that certainly didn't stop him from taking 'great measures' by invading Iraq, spending endless billions of dollars, costing thousand of innocent lives. With the 'Al-Qaeda" information 'before 9/11' he did nothing.



<img src="http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/guests/fm_sig.jpg">
sig by #1 Monster

[curtoid]

As a Republican, this looks like the final nail in Bush's re relection campaign coffin, Kerry is going to run away with this election

I wouldn't bet on it just yet. We still don't know how things are going to shake out after June 30th when power is handed over to *someone* in Iraq; also we don't know if Kerry will be able to actually generate any heat himself in the key states - maybe when he picks a runningmate.

It is interesting that the new tactic to try and attack Kerry is that he isn't Catholic enough; how that even became an issue baffles me.

They go after him on "special interest" money, but they are just as guilty, if not more so; they accuse him of flip flopping, but again you can find many more situations of them doing the same or worse; they blatantly distort facts on what he is supposedly going to do, including supposedly wanting to tack on a 50 cent gas tax - when Chuck "The Mother Chucker" Robb introduced 1993 legislation to phase in a 50-cent increase, Kerry chose not to vote for or co-sponsor this bill - MEANWHILE, in 1986 Dick Cheney actually introduced legislation to create a new import tax that would have caused the price of oil, and the price of gasoline paid by drivers, to soar by billions of dollars per year.

Hmmmm...there's a pattern here.

Anyway, my radio pyschic is that if there is a final nail in the coffin for this administration, it might actually be when the CIA Leak probe apexes, and we learn not only who said what and when, but who covered it up.

Your link message is misleading, the article quotes this

Actually my link message is the opening paragraph to the article, and the subject line of this thread was cut and pasted from the title of the article.

Of course (!) we know that Bush couldn't have known what was going to happen - it was a different world - and if he had he would have done everything in his disposal to make sure and stop it, and of course hind-sight is 20/20, however the Republican head of the 9/11 commission has said more than once that he does not believe that 9/11 HAD to have happen.

There were plenty of red flags that some trees should have been rattled; instead we do not see any action on this whatsoever, even after a summer when government officials had been on alert.

In fact, if you see the President from an interview from the next day, the ONLY thing he talks about as far as national security is Iraq, which is mentioned about 3 or 4 times in a casual conversation - again supporting the belief that Iraq was the only real priority.

He is given a paper detailing plans about Osama and terrorism on US soil, and the next fucking day the only thing he is concerned about is the guy who tried to kill his daddy, who happens to control a country that his backers in the Project for the New American Century (former members: Rummy, Wolfy and Cheney) covetted for over five years.

Still, none of that bothers me as much as the stone walling they have done, and the half-truths they have perpetuated. They spent a solid week trying to destroy Richard Clarke, and...OOP!...looks like he actually might have been telling the truth, at least where it counted. Then, in the middle of the fillerbustering and the rehearsed theatrics of her coyly trying to remember the name of document was disgusting - "I think it was called..." - last week Condi said that this was simply a historical document, which was not the case.




http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v64/curtoid/45.gif
[b][i]Much thanks to M1 for the siggie...!i][b]

This message was edited by curtoid on 4-11-04 @ 6:26 PM

[Mike Teacher]

Well said Curtoid, and believe me I blame the whole frigging system. Our Intelligence, you would think, given the technology we have, would be so fantastic we could have the 'surgical' warfare I guess might be the least cruel of all, or with the fewest non bad-guy casualties.

I will say this; i think the government should be doing one Whole Lot Better Job at this Shit then in the past, and I aint Seeing It. And 'the past' doesnt mean anyone, It means everyone.

This science nerd reads ALL About how amazing our satellites are. Hell, terraserver dot com used to have a free engine [maybe still does] where I found a satellite photo of te very house I am in, down to the resolution of say, 3 feet. And that image was dated from the 1980s!

WHERE is the Intel? We are the Jack Ryans and the CIA I read about in Clancy Novels where they find the guys out and fuck them so bad even the crazies get scared.

That giant slice of Military budget; I thought was for the Uber-Tech for this thing. Fuck; I want a Tractor Beam!!!!!!

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 4-11-04 @ 7:16 PM

[ToxicGarden]

George Bush and The US Government are ruthless liars and evil power hungry, gold worshiping morons who run our lives.
A wise shock jock once said,
"America sucks.
However, it sucks a lot less than anywhere else!"
Nothing suprises me when it comes to Uncle Sam.



Did she make you cry
Make you break down
Shatter your illusions of love

[ToxicGarden]

WHERE is the Intel?

Delaware Ave SW

Did she make you cry
Make you break down
Shatter your illusions of love

[DJEvelEd]

It's no wonder that they didn't want Cuntsleeza Rice testifying. Wasn't it Bush who said "There was no specific threat before 911 about time, place or method"? I guess that's all shot to shit now huh Georgie boy. Fucking republicans can go suck the democrats ass. They all lie and they all suck.

Thanks Katylina, Monsterone, you make the shittiest sigs.
<IMG SRC="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=djeveled">
SPONSORED BY: "THE F’CESTOF C’SAR" BY ’SOP c464 B.C.
HAS ANYONE SEEN MY GAPING ANUS?

[sr71blackbird]

Name calling doesnt facilitate intellectual discussion

<center>
http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=8 </center>


<center><B>My Thanks to Just Jon, Reefdwella, ADF, Monsterone and Katylina for the sig-pic help and creation!</B></center>
<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=1>( o Y o )</marquee>

[DJEvelEd]

Name calling doesnt facilitate intellectual discussion


It does for me since I've voted Libertarian for almost 20 years. The 2 party system is poo poo.


I banged a communist hooker last night though.

Thanks Katylina, Monsterone, you make the shittiest sigs.
<IMG SRC="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=djeveled">
SPONSORED BY: "THE F’CESTOF C’SAR" BY ’SOP c464 B.C.
HAS ANYONE SEEN MY GAPING ANUS?

This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 4-11-04 @ 8:52 PM

[Doomstone]

Comparing Rice's testimony before the 9/11 Commission to the actual text of the Presidental Daily Briefing:


From Rice's testimony:


BEN-VENISTE: I asked you what the title was.

RICE: You said, did it not warn of attacks. <b>It did not warn of attacks inside the United States.</b> It was historical information based on old reporting. There was no new threat information. <b>And it did not, in fact, warn of any coming attacks inside the United States.</b>


From the PDB:


We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting, such as that from a ---- service in 1998 saying that Bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S. aircraft to gain the release of "Blind Sheikh" Omar Abdel Rahman and other U.S.-held extremists.

Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity <b>in this country</b> consistent with preparations for <b>hijackings or other types of attacks</b>, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.


Rice:


Rice: But I can also tell you that <b>there was nothing in this memo that suggested that an attack was coming on New York or Washington, D.C.</b>


From the PDB:



After US missile strikes on his base in Afghanistan in 1998, <b>Bin Ladin told followers he wanted to retaliate in Washington</b>...
a <b>Bin Ladin cell in New York</b> was recruiting Muslim-American youth for attacks...
FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of <b>federal buildings in New York</b>



Rice:


RICE: It had a number of discussions of -- it had a discussion of whether or not they might use hijacking to try and free a prisoner who was being held in the United States -- Ressam. It reported that the FBI had full field investigations under way.

And we checked on the issue of whether or not there was something going on with surveillance of buildings, and we were told, I believe, that the issue was the courthouse in which this might take place.

Commissioner, <b>this was not a warning</b>. This was a historic memo -- historical memo prepared by the agency because the president was asking questions about what we knew about the inside.


The PDB warns:



Al-Qa'ida members -- including some who are US citizens --have resided in or traveled to the US for years, and the group apparently maintains a support structure that could aid attacks.
Although Bin Ladin has not succeeded, his attacks against the US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 demonstrate that he prepares operations years in advance and is not deterred by setbacks.
a group of Bin Ladin supporters was in the US planning attacks with explosives.
FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York



Rice:

Now, I would be speculating, but if you would like, I will go ahead and speculate to say that one of the problems here was there really was nothing that looked like it was going to happen inside the United States.

The threat reporting was -- the specific threat reporting was about <b>external threats</b>: about the Persian Gulf, about Israel, about perhaps the Genoa event.

It is just not the case that the August 6th memorandum did anything but put together what the CIA decided that they wanted to put together about historical knowledge about what was going on and a few things about what the FBI might be doing.

And so, <b>the light was shining abroad</b>. And if you look at what was going -- I was in constant contact to make sure that those things were getting done with the relevant agencies -- with State, with Defense and so forth.



The PDB:
[quot

[sr71blackbird]

Nothing above indicates anything specific that Bush or any President could have done to prevent what happened.

<center>
http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=8 </center>


<center><B>My Thanks to Just Jon, Reefdwella, ADF, Monsterone and Katylina for the sig-pic help and creation!</B></center>
<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=1>( o Y o )</marquee>

[Doomstone]

Nothing above indicates anything specific that Bush or any President could have done to prevent what happened.


You're right. Obviously, Bush did what's best for the country after recieving a memo entitled "Bin ladin Determined To Strike in US" - take a month-long vacation.

<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds_sig.jpg">
Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>

[sr71blackbird]

Re-read my inital response in this thread and come up with a way that could have prevented it. If you can, I'll ink you in as my candidate of choice when I vote in November.

<center>
http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=8 </center>


<center><B>My Thanks to Just Jon, Reefdwella, ADF, Monsterone and Katylina for the sig-pic help and creation!</B></center>
<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=1>( o Y o )</marquee>

[Se7en]

Nothing above indicates anything specific that Bush or any President could have done to prevent what happened.


Well then, you're just a blind follower of Bush, that's what you are.

Name calling doesnt facilitate intellectual discussion

Stop for a moment and realize the folly in your words.

Intellectual discussion?

HERE?!?!

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/7_sig.gif" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos.
I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>

[Doomstone]

Bush after the briefing: "Well, it sounds like bad stuff might happen. This Bin Ladin guy sounds serious about wanting to kill lots and lots of Americans. Sleeper cells in New York, airline hijackings, surveillance of federal buildings by suspected terrorists, all sounds like something that deserves immediate attention. But, since I don't have any specific dates or locations, there's nothing I can do. Oh well, too bad... off to Crawford to clear some brush and watch Barney chase armadillos!"

<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds_sig.jpg">
Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>

[sr71blackbird]

Well then, you're just a blind follower of Bush, that's what you are.



Bush or any President


<center>
http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=8 </center>


<center><B>My Thanks to Just Jon, Reefdwella, ADF, Monsterone and Katylina for the sig-pic help and creation!</B></center>
<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=1>( o Y o )</marquee>

[DJEvelEd]

come up with a way that could have prevented it.


By starting the "John Ashcroft Police State" one month earlier...

Thanks Katylina, Monsterone, you make the shittiest sigs.
<IMG SRC="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=djeveled">
SPONSORED BY: "THE F’CESTOF C’SAR" BY ’SOP c464 B.C.
HAS ANYONE SEEN MY GAPING ANUS?

[zoom2457]

This 9/11 panel's purpose is not to place blame on anyone. It's to try and figure out where things went awry, if they did indeed go awry. It's a panel to help plan in the future, there is nothing we can do to change the past.

There was no way that this could have been prevented, when someone is determined to get you there really isn't anyway to 100% prevent it.

Who would have known to use a plane as a bomb? This thinking is completely foreign to us. Our country is filled with amateurs when it comes to hate. We have no idea how to deal with these people and we certainly do not understand how they even think.

Now, I just want to set the record straight before I get labeled a "blind Bush follower". I can't stand G.W. Bush, he is ruining the environment, letting big business go crazy and his religion is getting in the way of our country and everything it stands for.

"Excuse me, excuse me I believe you have my stapler"

This message was edited by zoom2457 on 4-12-04 @ 8:40 AM

[jeffdwright2001]

1. Who is suggesting that we give up air travel?


Me!

I want those MagLev Trains, baby.

Good idea. Terrorists would never thinking of going after trains. :confuse:

[Mike Teacher]

Good idea. Terrorists would never thinking of going after trains.


Terrorists will go after everything including my old Big Wheel. I was discussing MagLev as a way to avoid that 'falling 6 miles to Earth' thing a la the scene in Fight Club.

I hate when that happens.

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[Tazz]

Comparing Rice's testimony before the 9/11 Commission to the actual text of the Presidental Daily Briefing:


From Rice's testimony:

[quote]
BEN-VENISTE: I asked you what the title was.

RICE: You said, did it not warn of attacks. <b>It did not warn of attacks inside the United States.</b> It was historical information based on old reporting. There was no new threat information. <b>And it did not, in fact, warn of any coming attacks inside the United States.</b>


From the PDB:


We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting, such as that from a ---- service in 1998 saying that Bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S. aircraft to gain the release of "Blind Sheikh" Omar Abdel Rahman and other U.S.-held extremists.

Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity <b>in this country</b> consistent with preparations for <b>hijackings or other types of attacks</b>, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.


Rice:


Rice: But I can also tell you that <b>there was nothing in this memo that suggested that an attack was coming on New York or Washington, D.C.</b>


From the PDB:



After US missile strikes on his base in Afghanistan in 1998, <b>Bin Ladin told followers he wanted to retaliate in Washington</b>...
a <b>Bin Ladin cell in New York</b> was recruiting Muslim-American youth for attacks...
FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of <b>federal buildings in New York</b>



Rice:


RICE: It had a number of discussions of -- it had a discussion of whether or not they might use hijacking to try and free a prisoner who was being held in the United States -- Ressam. It reported that the FBI had full field investigations under way.

And we checked on the issue of whether or not there was something going on with surveillance of buildings, and we were told, I believe, that the issue was the courthouse in which this might take place.

Commissioner, <b>this was not a warning</b>. This was a historic memo -- historical memo prepared by the agency because the president was asking questions about what we knew about the inside.


The PDB warns:



Al-Qa'ida members -- including some who are US citizens --have resided in or traveled to the US for years, and the group apparently maintains a support structure that could aid attacks.
Although Bin Ladin has not succeeded, his attacks against the US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 demonstrate that he prepares operations years in advance and is not deterred by setbacks.
a group of Bin Ladin supporters was in the US planning attacks with explosives.
FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York



Rice:

Now, I would be speculating, but if you would like, I will go ahead and speculate to say that one of the problems here was there really was nothing that looked like it was going to happen inside the United States.

The threat reporting was -- the specific threat reporting was about <b>external threats</b>: about the Persian Gulf, about Israel, about perhaps the Genoa event.

It is just not the case that the August 6th memorandum did anything but put together what the CIA decided that they wanted to put together about historical knowledge about what was going on and a few things about what the FBI might be doing.

And so, <b>the light was shining abroad</b>. And if you look at what was going -- I was in constant contact to make sure that those things were getting done with the relevant agencies -- with State, with Defense and so forth.



The PDB:

[Mike Teacher]

gold worshiping morons who run our lives.


i thought it was oil.

and i am soory that someone is running your life. you can be your own person, you know.

[Dana Carvery as Bush] Keep up the good fight though, Angry Young Man...

[Bush: to the secret service men] "Good Cop Bad Cop, Good Cop Bad Cop..."

SS Man "Mr President we're running very late we must leave NOW!"

Bush: OK. Bye, Angry Young Man... ::tussle::

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[TheMojoPin]

And yet again, blame is deferred AWAY from the CIA...where it rightfully belongs.

*Sigh*

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Stop for a moment and realize the folly in your words.

Intellectual discussion?

HERE?!?!

I think you picked the wrong thread to go with the strawman. We've got a pretty decent one going on here.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[A.J.]

Obviously, Bush did what's best for the country after recieving a memo entitled "Bin ladin Determined To Strike in US" - take a month-long vacation.

Yep: just like Congress did.

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AJinDC-Sig.jpg>

A Skidmark/canofsoup15 production.

Red Sox Nation

[FMJeff]

Im with Yerddaddy 100% on this one...the necessary safeguards should've been in place...reinforcing the doors...marshalls would've been nice...they didn't do any of this...cost...politics...Rice is lying through the gap in her teeth as this whole administration has been for years....

Can't wait till Bush hits the fucking pavement ass first...

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[jeffdwright2001]

Obviously, Bush did what's best for the country after recieving a memo entitled "Bin ladin Determined To Strike in US" - take a month-long vacation.

Yep: just like Congress did.

So the memo was sent to Bush AND Congress at the same time?

[JerryTaker]

This Reminds me of Dave Chapelle's need of proof to convict R.Kelly, "get me a videotape of R. Kelly, peeing on a girl, holding 2 forms of I.D. clearly showing her as underage, with a cop as a witness, and I'll consider it..."
Bush apologists are saying the exact same thing, "there was no specific warning of 19 Saudis hijacking planes in Boston on 9/11 at 8:30 am and crashing them into both the twin towers and the pentagon, so there was nothing we could have done.

Too bad there's no way for a plane to send a signal back to the tower when it diverts from it's flight path...

Too bad there's no way of tracking planes from the ground so a screen can show you 4 different planes making U-turns...

Too bad We don't have the best and fastest acting Air force in the world, with jets that could outfly a passenger jet at it's fastest....

Too bad our millitary doesn't drill for the possibility of intercepting a passenger jet that is off its course or percieved as a threat...

Better yet, too bad those last 4 statements are untrue...

<IMG SRC="http://web.njit.edu/~gsm2321/gimliwall.gif">

Nothing we've shared means a thing
Without you close to me
I can't live without you

[Doomstone]

I liked how you picked out keywords that had nothing to do with the previous statement. That was cute, but proves nothing.

What the fuck are you talking about, son? Even the most bootlickingest of the Bush bootlickers can see the direct contradictions between Rice's statements and the text of the memo.

Rice: "There was nothing in this memo that suggested that an attack was coming on New York or Washington, D.C. "

Memo: "After US missile strikes on his base in Afghanistan in 1998, Bin Ladin told followers he wanted to retaliate in Washington"

Shit, the title of the memo is "Bin ladin Determined To Strike in US" and yet Condi Rice is trying to convince the Commission that the memo was all about external threats and historical information.

Condi Rice: Shameless Liar

<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds_sig.jpg">
Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>

[curtoid]

FOX News tonight ran a short piece tonight blasting the Washington Post on that opening paragraph. I felt a warm, tingly feeling seeing it make the "news," especially since it was Brit Hume reading it - a man I once rented pornography to.




http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v64/curtoid/45.gif
[b][i]Much thanks to M1 for the siggie...!i][b]

This message was edited by curtoid on 4-12-04 @ 9:51 PM

[furie]

it took 6 months to get the cockpit doors reinforced, that would have been too late.

and it's taken 3 YEARS to get the FAMs to theur current levels, and the current levels are below what's needed according to the current plan.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/supper_lee.jpg">

<marquee>I went home with a waitress, the way I always do. How was I to know she was with the Russians too?"
</marquee>

[Cybersoldier]

After reading this the government should have done something with report of terro cells in the country, possiblity of plane being taken over by terrorists. This president drop the ball, as well as the previous president to secure the country.

<IMG SRC="http://publish.hometown.aol.com/cybersoldiernyc/myhomepage/cs_sig.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US">
Thanks for the sig monsterone

[JerryTaker]

as well as the previous president


Hey, he did stop the millenium attack...

<IMG SRC="http://web.njit.edu/~gsm2321/gimliwall.gif">

Nothing we've shared means a thing
Without you close to me
I can't live without you

[curtoid]

The balancing act with preparing the report is to look at all of this information through pre-911 eyes; the President/congress/the media/the intel agencies were not on war footing. Some individuals, like Clark, might have been, and Condi was right (I love calling her that, by the way - so much easier to type!) when she said that there was in place a way of doing things in government that made things difficult - going back 30 + years.

Speaking of going back 30 years...when the hostages were finally released from Iraq after 444 days (I believe), it was Reagan who got the glory, even though he had been in office fo only a few hours when it happened. In fact, during his first term, I don't remember him once, or anyone in his administration once, blaming a current situation on Carter. The buck stopped with him.

Back to the thing at hand: it appears Clinton was more engaged with an al-Queda threat than Bush, however, just as I believe the buck should stop with the guy in the White House (Bush), I also believe that Clinton deserves some of the blame for al-Queda's rise, and for not following through in October 2000, even though it would have been very unpopular at the time with the public, the GOP and congress. It might not have stopped anything happening a year later, but it would have been a wake-up call, perhaps; just like when Ford pardoning Nixon so that the country can move foreward (at the expense of his own reelection), the President needs to show real bravery.

In the end there will be plenty of blame to go around (I don't believe the CIA is going to get out of this unscathed), and maybe finally someone will lose a job somewhere.



http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v64/curtoid/45.gif
[b][i]Much thanks to M1 for the siggie...!i][b]

[jeffdwright2001]

Looks like we've got another fun filled day of testimonies. Odds are Ashcroft will push as much blame as possible onto Freeh.

Who will come out looking better, Ashcroft or Rice?

Either way, I'm betting not much talk will center around what we do or don't have in place to prevent further attacks.

Ashcroft will be among several current and former Justice and FBI officials to appear before the panel today and tomorrow. Reno, FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III, former FBI director Louis J. Freeh, former acting director Thomas J. Pickard and CIA Director George J. Tenet are among those scheduled to appear. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6589-2004Apr12.html)

[NewYorkDragons80]

just like when Ford pardoning Nixon so that the country can move foreward (at the expense of his own reelection)
Kinda off topic, but I'm going to disagree with you here. It was a very tight race and Ford probably would have won if he didn't say that Eastern Europe wasn't under Soviet domination.

The only realistic way to break up the terror cells within our borders was and is to compromise some of our freedoms, which many of you have proven that you are unwilling to do. If you fight the Patriot Act after 9/11, imagine the frenzy if it had been passed before 9/11

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

[Freebird]

That is an interesting point. We can speculate what would have happened if the FBI/CIA had arrested the hijackers in July/August on charges of conspiracy and CIA intelligence indicating they planned something bad.

It could also be argued that the more open our society, communication between the services would be better and the secretive activities of the terrorists would have been more easily noticed. Whether it is a real vital need to keep certain secrets or an insular "turf war" mentality, some measure of that is a factor in the inability to catch these terrorists.

-----------------------------
Now I'm starving

I'm about to turn it up a notch!

[jeffdwright2001]

It could also be argued that the more open our society, communication between the services would be better and the secretive activities of the terrorists would have been more easily noticed. Whether it is a real vital need to keep certain secrets or an insular "turf war" mentality, some measure of that is a factor in the inability to catch these terrorists.

Yes. Before I give up quite so many private rights, let's see our governmental agencies become less "private" with each other.

I don't understand the kneejerk reaction that caused the Patriot Act but the virtual slothlike movement towards breaking down the communication barriers between the FBI, CIA, NSA, and now the DHS.

[TheMojoPin]

How odd.

Right now, my Dad's boss through 2002, Cofer Black, is testifying. The projects and operations he's discussing are those my father worked directly on.

Cofer is now basically the CIA's "ambassador at large on terrorism"...meaning he works "on loan" with other federal agencies (Or outher countries' intelligence services) as a spearhead representative of the US' (And specifically, the CIA's) intelligence operations and interests.

I've met him a number of times over the last decade, and all I can say is that he's a good man, and one of the best to ever work for the CIA. There's an excellent new book out on the CIA's operations in and around Afghanistan since the time of the Soviets called "Ghost Wars," and there are stories of terrorist sects actively attempting to kidnap and/or kill Black whenever he was abroad, so the guy must have been doing SOMETHING right.

My Dad is very openly critical of a lot of the internal politics and failings of the CIA, specifically the CTC...but he's had nothing but praise for Black. If the committee wants answers, they'll get it from him.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

I don't understand the kneejerk reaction that caused the Patriot Act but the virtual slothlike movement towards breaking down the communication barriers between the FBI, CIA, NSA, and now the DHS.

I still can't fathom the creation of the DHS.

THE biggest intelligence problem this country has, as stated by others, is the lack of communication and cooperation between our security agencies. What is the DHS doing that wasn't already SUPPOSED to be covered in some way by the CIA, FBI, NSA or DOD? How does creating ANOTHER agency that has to somehow fit in the mix and work with the others solve ANYTHING?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[NewYorkDragons80]

Shit. I can't remember the name of the book (or author), but it was written by a former CIA agent who describes the problems of communication. The CIA (whose agents tend to have better educations) looks down on the DIA (or at least the DIA feels that way) and the DIA looks at the CIA as a bunch of liberals. Oversimplified? Yes. But anyone who has served in the military understands the competition and negativity between the services.

Gimme a few hours and I'll get back to you on the book.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 4-13-04 @ 4:27 PM

[A.J.]

THE biggest intelligence problem this country has, as stated by others, is the lack of communication and cooperation between our security agencies. What is the DHS doing that wasn't already SUPPOSED to be covered in some way by the CIA, FBI, NSA or DOD? How does creating ANOTHER agency that has to somehow fit in the mix and work with the others solve ANYTHING?

I recently read an article that raised an issue that doesn't surprise me -- part of the problem is in Congress. Chairmen of full and subcommittees don't want to give up their "fiefdoms" to a larger Committee on Homeland Security. This lack of proper Congressional oversight means that some new DHS agencies are being shortchanged.

Also, DHS is woefully understaffed as this reorg is being held up.

One success has been the creation of TTIC (the Terrorist Threat Integration Center). This directorate is comprised with reps from all the agencies Mojo mentioned (plus a few others) and is making sure that intel is being shared in a more timely and efficient manner.

Brit Hume reading it - a man I once rented pornography to.

So what "genre" did he rent?

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AJinDC-Sig.jpg>

A Skidmark/canofsoup15 production.

Red Sox Nation

[HBox]

I'm watching John Ashcroft's testimony in front of the 9/11 commission, and he just pronounced rationale "rationalee."

Laugh, and then you may move on.

http://members.aol.com/joepersico/myhomepage/sig1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[NewYorkDragons80]

Shit. I can't remember the name of the book (or author), but it was written by a former CIA agent who describes the problems of communication. The CIA (whose agents tend to have better educations) looks down on the DIA (or at least the DIA feels that way) and the DIA looks at the CIA as a bunch of liberals. Oversimplified? Yes. But anyone who has served in the military understands the competition and negativity between the services.

Gimme a few hours and I'll get back to you on the book.
Alright I got the bastard. It was CIA: The Myth and the Madness by Patrick J. McGarvey

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

[high fly]

What I have done is to make a timeline the old fashioned way, with pen and paper, putting down the meetings Richard Clark had, the warnings we had, all kinds of stuff.
When one looks at how over and over the administration was warned, it is disgusting.
Truly disgusting.
It is a case where being so disciplined at staying "on message" and not deviating from the party line hurt us big time.
I was ready to give the administration a pass until I began putting all this stuff together.

9/11 could have been prevented in part or in whole.
Had Bush, after all of these warnings, shown some leadership and interest, it would have been different.
All he would have had to do was that summer, in June or July, was to call in the heads of the FBI, CIA, INS, Customs, etc and said, "My first duty is the protection of the American people. Look, we are getting all these reports saying bin Laden will hit us soon with an attack that will cause massive civilian casualties, be "catastrophic" according to at least one report, "change the world" according to another.
"This is now your number one priority. I want your best people on this. One hears about inter-agency rivalry in Washington. You WILL cooperate fully with each other.
Anyone holding anything back or drag-assing will be reassigned to count ice cubes in Antarctica.
"I will give you any funding or support you need to get this done."

Leadership from the top.

All that was needed was for there to be two things--1) information sharing, and 2) a sense of urgency.

Then the 3 requests by FBI field offices for investigations into Al Qaeda infiltration of our civil aviation system would have not been blocked.
The FBI would have been told about Al Qaeda bastards in the U.S.
They could have been put on America's Most Wanted and rounded up real quicklike.



" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[A.J.]

This is now your number one priority. I want your best people on this. One hears about inter-agency rivalry in Washington. You WILL cooperate fully with each other.

Nice thought but it won't happen that easily. That's why establishing the DHS is working out so smoothly right now. Inter-agency rivalry will be with us as long as pork-barrel politics will be.

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AJinDC-Sig.jpg>

A Skidmark/canofsoup15 production.

Red Sox Nation

[Yerdaddy]

http://robots6270.mit.edu/contests/2002/robots/07/images/homer.jpgMmmm... pork-barrel politics... arrgggghhhh

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[high fly]

You are right, AJ, but when you look at all the warnings and all, what I suggest is reasionable.

Then when you look at what we had, we coulda nailed some-a the sumbitches at least.

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!