Torturing Iraqi Soldiers

[curtoid]

Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml)

Someone's Blog with Images (http://www.livejournal.com/users/transmigrant/31681.html)

Reaction from Arab world: "The liberators are worse than the dictators." (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&e=2&u=/nm/iraq_pictures_dc)


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This message was edited by curtoid on 4-30-04 @ 9:55 AM

[FUNKMAN]

the Iraqi media are gonna play this to the hilt and for all it's worth, 'against the US'... Hopefully they broadcast the "Court Martial" process that shows something like this is not tolerated!

or at least after somebody gets caught... Stupid Soldiers!

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[curtoid]

How do you think Americans would react if the roles were reversed?

This is far from simply the Iraq media - this is in England, Italy, Geneva, Amnesty International. It's on the front pages of most of the world's newspapers, playing into their worst fears about the "American War Machine."

An Italian paper wrote: "It wasn't psychological pressure or simple mistreatment or illegitimate detention as in Guantanamo, but true, classic and irrefutable torture," the paper wrote in an editorial, citing forced, public sodomy as one of the gravest offences.

The sexual humilation is particularly horrifying in the muslem world. It was even compared to being worse than death.

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This message was edited by curtoid on 4-30-04 @ 10:04 AM

[HBox]

In related news, Bush's approval numbers went up 5 points.

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[FUNKMAN]

This is something that has certainly happened in all wars. It is the nature of some human beings 'when presented with an opportunity like this' to follow through. There is alot of stress and anger involved with seeing your friends getting killed and mamed and it's certainly easy to see someone wanting to get a little 'revenge'...

It happens with the Police as well, especially after a high-speed chase. The driver is putting the lives of citizens and the Police in danger and when they finally are able to apprehend the suspect it takes alot of will-power not to pop him one in the mush...

They got caught and they are gonna get punished. Hopefully others will learn from this and make the decision 'not' to act in this manner...



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[sr71blackbird]

Funkman's right on the money. I'd be willing to bet these are isloated events that those against this action will use to their goal of isolating the US. What are we to do now? Pull out and leave it in a shambles? How will that make us look? We cant just walk away now. We will have to deal with it because it is the responisble thing to do. I understand why so many of you are against this war, but try and visualise what would happen if he just wiped our hands of it. Call it an unnecessary war, or a grab at their oil, Bush's vengence or stupidity,whatever, but a strong presence in that part of the world will have a profound impact for the future stability of that region. We are going to take some hits for it, no doubt. Before we consider it a useless action, we have to see how it plays out. We're in it now, let's see what happens 20 years from now and support our guys over there. For all the bad thats reported, there are just as many, if not more, really good things being done there right now in a humanitarian way that though it isnt reported, are appreciated by regular Iraqi's who have been suffering for a long time under the previous regime.

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[HBox]

In all honesty, I'm not surprised. There are a lot of soldiers over there, and everyone isn't golden, and I'm sure some are downright scumbags, and then there are these guys, "allegedly." But what pisses me off the most is the reports that these guys were under the command of mercenaries, and that the mercs also committed some crimes but the military can't do anything about it because they have no jurisidction over them.

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[TheMojoPin]

Like it's been said, this kind of stuff is the action of some of the assholes that manage to get into the armed forces, not the American military as a whole. It's been going on since we, or really, any other nation, has had an army in any modern conflict in the last 200 years. Yes, "we" can set a higher standard for ourselves...but unfortunately, we can't vouch 24seven for the psychopaths that slip into our armed forces and do this shit to other people. The only thing that can be done is hope that our military leaders make an honest effort to weed out those responsible whenever they hear the issue of torture coming up, and their punishments swift and appropriately harsh.

We ARE better than that...and these nutjobs, like the foreign insurgents coming in by the thousands to "fight for" the common Iraqi, do NOT speak for the rest of us.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

We're in it now, let's see what happens 20 years from now and support our guys over there. For all the bad thats reported, there are just as many, if not more, really good things being done there right now in a humanitarian way that though it isnt reported, are appreciated by regular Iraqi's who have been suffering for a long time under the previous regime.

Thus far, nobody in the articles linked, or anyone in this thread, has suggested we leave Iraq because of this, that there aren't plenty of GOOD soldiers in contrast to these relative few scumbags, or that our soldiers haven't done their share of help in helping the Iraqis rebuild and survive in the struggle since the invasion.

The only thing that would happen if we "wait 20 years and see what happens" is we totally forget stuff like what this thread is about. Guys doing acts like this are almost as detrimental to what we're trying to do and present ourselves as as the assholes on the "other side" trying to kill them AND the good soldiers not doing this shit. It's ludicrous to turn a blind eye to what they're doing under the notion of, "we gotta support the troops!"

Like Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt very correctly stated:

"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."

Whether we like it or not.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-30-04 @ 1:33 PM

[ChickenHawk]

I'm curious... Does this come as a surprise to anyone?

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[IrishAlkey]

I'd rather be in a naked pyramid than have my head blown off and my dead body dragged through a street.

Hell, I'd rather be in a naked pyramid than eat eggs.

<center>http://academ.hvcc.edu/~01885716/images/ia-sig.jpg</center>

[TheMojoPin]

YOU don't get to play naked pyramid because of what you did last time...making Reeshy cry like that...AWFUL!

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 4-30-04 @ 1:59 PM

[reeshy]

Hey Mojo,
Dammit...I wasn't crying...stop saying that.....you bitch.....I WASN'T CRYING.....

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[center] Let's finish with a thought from star Ozzy Astaire: 'Oooh yeah SatCam and MrBadTouch shoo badaby dooo.'

[TheMojoPin]

There, there...dry your eyes, Tiny Dancer...

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[IrishAlkey]

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-1-04 @ 12:49 AM

[TheMojoPin]

If you don't knock it off, we WON'T have that sleepover...and that means no playing "naked robber," mister!

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FMJeff]

awful...just awful...

i hope those soldiers go to jail for a long time...

this is gonna blow up in our faces...

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It made my heart sing.

[Se7en]

In related news, Bush's approval numbers went up 5 points.

And exactly what kind of point are you trying to make here?

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[WRESTLINGFAN]

Can we say Leavenworth?

FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

[HBox]

And exactly what kind of point are you trying to make here?

That the worse things get in Iraq, the more Bush's poll numbers inexplicably go up.

Lighten up.

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[furie]

no one deserves to be tortured, even if it's humiliation torture.


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[Mike Teacher]

no one deserves to be tortured


true; i gotta shorten my posts.

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[monsterone]

i don't see any distinguishing them as american soldiers. and yes, no one <i>deserves</i> to be tortured, but if the lives and safety of service men and women, and civilians are at stake, certain measures need to be taken, if you can't get the info by talking nice.

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[HBox]

and yes, no one deserves to be tortured, but if the lives and safety of service men and women, and civilians are at stake, certain measures need to be taken, if you can't get the info by talking nice.

I highly doubt that's the situation here, with all the happy faces and thumbs up and all. Not to mention that I have no idea how a naked pyramid would elicit any info.

http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/hotsbox.jpg

[monsterone]

I highly doubt that's the situation here, with all the happy faces and thumbs up and all. Not to mention that I have no idea how a naked pyramid would elicit any info.



hey, people said above that there are a few bad apples to ruin the bunch. but what says these images are american military?

and even if they are americans, funk said it correct, war can make you crazy. shit, what about those dudes in 'nam that had ear necklaces?

you might want to pm alkey, he seems to know about naked pyramids.

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<center>

<font color="black" size="1"> don't you think it's funny that if i grab a woman's ass and she punches me, she's fighting for her rights, but if a faggot grabs my ass and i punch his lights out, i'm a homophobe? </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

[HBox]

hey, people said above that there are a few bad apples to ruin the bunch

I know. I was one of them. But this does not seem like this was remotely necessary. It looks like this was done solely to inflict suffering for fun.

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[monsterone]

again, think about the mentality of day in day out, of having to kill someone. i'm not saying it's right, but war will fuck with your head.

shit, in the last 50 years, war has been made more "civilized" compared to times when you'd put severed heads on pikes as a warning to enemies.

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<center>

<font color="black" size="1"> don't you think it's funny that if i grab a woman's ass and she punches me, she's fighting for her rights, but if a faggot grabs my ass and i punch his lights out, i'm a homophobe? </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


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[Yerdaddy]

i don't see any distinguishing them as american soldiers.
They took pictures of themselves in uniform. Charges have already been brought against 6, with more under investigation, and administrative punishments are being handed down to the officers all the way up to a brigadier general. They were American soldiers.

and yes, no one deserves to be tortured, but if the lives and safety of service men and women, and civilians are at stake, certain measures need to be taken, if you can't get the info by talking nice.
Two reasons why this can't just be chalked up to the chaos of war and torture for information to save lives. 1) It undermines the whole mission in Iraq right now. We're trying to convince the Arab world that we are not against them, and make Iraq a "model for the rest of the Muslim world." The fact that American soldiers are torturing Iraqis in the same prison that was the most infamous place that Saddam tortured Iraqis, sends the exact opposite message to the Iraqis and the rest of the Arab/Muslim world. This will lead to recruitment of more insurgents from within and without Iraq. That's also why the general interviewed on "60 Minutes II" showed the emotional disgust over this - because these guys made the whole mission harder and probably got more people killed in the long run. And 2) if you look at the responses to the story on the "60 Minutes II" website, the most angry responses are coming from military people. The reason for that, they say, is that everyone gets trained in the Geneva Convention in boot camp, not just in the rules of it, but why we, (Americans), follow it. The military makes it clear to its people that this kind of thing makes it more likely that captured American soldiers will be treated the same way. It's just a really bad thing for everyone all the way around.

On the other hand, there seems to be evidence that they were encouraged to do some of this by the CIA agents doing the interrogations, and certainly the commanding officers were not supervising their soldiers. The fact that they took dozens of pictures of themselves doing this shows that they weren't afraid of being busted on this. Something other than administrative accountability probably needs to be handed out to superiors for their role and to show that these few "bad apples" don't represent the military as a whole, like the general said.

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Fuck it from behind.

[FUNKMAN]

no one deserves to be tortured


i'd have to disagree here... i believe people who torture others should be tortured themselves, just like when someone purposely takes someone else's life, the only 'fair' punishment is the taking of their life...

but i understand that we try to set a moral and civil example...

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[badorties]

Command Errors Aided Iraq Abuse, Army Has Found (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/03/international/middleeast/03ABUS.html?ei=5062&en=24ed541a4cd27b34&ex=1084161600&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=)


Documents from an April 2 military court hearing in Iraq for Sergeant Frederick provide new details about the abuse. The documents show that Specialist Matthew Carl Wisdom, of the 372nd Military Police Company at Abu Ghraib, appeared in the hearing and described some of the acts of abuse he saw.

"I went down to Tier 1 (the cellblock where much of the abuse is said to have occurred) and when I looked down the corridor, I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open," he is quoted as saying. "I thought I should just get out of there. I didn't think it was right, as it seemed like the wrong thing to do. I saw Staff Sergeant Frederick walking towards me, and he said, `Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds.' "




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This message was edited by badorties on 5-3-04 @ 2:05 PM

[Doomstone]

I love blogs...

http://billmon.org/archives/001446.html


[quote]
Scenes From a Cover Up
[/center]
"It's important for all nations, throughout the world, to treat any prisoners well. And that is something the United States always expects, and the United States always does."
Ari Fleischer
Statement on the Geneva Convention
May 7, 2002


"If you don't violate someone's human rights some of the time, you probably aren't doing your job," said one official who has supervised the capture and transfer of accused terrorists.
Washington Post
U.S. Decries Abuse but Defends Interrogations
December 26, 2002


The standard for any type of interrogation of somebody in American custody is to be humane and to follow all international laws and accords dealing with this type of subject. That is precisely what has been happening, and exactly what will happen."
Ari Fleischer
Press Briefing
March 3, 2003


Six weeks after the death of two Afghan prisoners in US custody at Bagram air base in Afghanistan was announced, the United States has still not answered the disturbing questions raised about the interrogation methods used on detainees . military pathologists classed the mode of death of the two prisoners as "homicide."
Crimes of War Project
Stress and Duress:
Drawing the Line Between Interrogation and Torture
April 24, 2003


The United States does not permit, tolerate or condone any such torture by its employees under any circumstances.
Pentagon General Counsel William J Haynes II
Letter to Sen. Patrick Leahy
June 25, 2003


Amnesty International . has received a number of reports of torture or ill-treatment by Coalition Forces not confined to criminal suspects. Reported methods include prolonged sleep deprivation; prolonged restraint in painful positions, sometimes combined with exposure to loud music; prolonged hooding; and exposure to bright lights. Such treatment would amount to "torture or inhuman treatment" prohibited by the Fourth Geneva Convention and by international human rights law.
Amnesty International
Iraq: Memorandum on concerns relating to law and order
July 23, 2003


"They are torturing people. They are torturing people on Guantanamo Bay .they are engaging in acts which amount to torture in the medieval sense of the phrase. They are engaging in good old-fashioned torture, as people would have understood it in the Dark Ages."
Australian attorney Richard Bourke
Interview with the Australian Broadcasting Company
October 8, 2003


"We don't torture people in America and people who say we do simply know nothing about our country."
George W. Bush
Interview with Australian TV
October 18, 2003


Amnesty International's interviews with former prisoners, together with interviews conducted by journalists, confirm that prisoners are subjected to ill-treatment that may constitute torture, including blindfolding, prolonged forced kneeling, sleep deprivation, and cruel use of shackles. The abuses are alleged to have taken place in an interrogation section on the second floor of the Bagram detention facility, to which representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross - who visit other parts of the facility - are reportedly denied access.
Amnesty International USA
One Year Later, Two Afghan Deaths
in US Prison Still Unexplained
December 1, 2003


"The beatings were not as nearly as bad as the psychological torture - bruises heal after a week but the other stuff stays with you. The whole point of Guantanamo was to get to you psychologically."
Former Camp X-Ray detainee Jamal Udeen
BBC Interview
March 12, 2004


"Any and all allegation of torture at Guantanamo Bay is absolute absurdity. The temptations are certainly there, but the discipline of a professional, trained interrogator in the United States military is that you have to show restraint."
"Tom," a military interrogator at Camp X-Ray
60 Minutes II interview
April 14, 2004


What Taguba says in his report is that the

[HBox]

I was flipping through the news channels tonight and this one woman caught my eye. She was being interviewed because she was in charge of Abu Ghraib. She was basically denying that she had done anything wrong. But I knew I recognized her from somewhere.

Then it hit me. I saw a report on CNN a while back. It was about an Iraqi family whose son had been imprisoned in what I can now only assume was Abu Ghraib. He had been held there for months, and the family said he was being held without being chraged for anything. They then went and interviewed this very woman I was talking about. My memory is sketchy, so I don't want to go any further until I find the story online. However, if my memory is correct it's a lot of bad things that I at the time wrote off, but now just have to accept.

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[Yerdaddy]

Janis Karpinski. There will be some background on her in the <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact" target="_blank">Seymour Hersh</a> article in The New Yorker. Hersh is the guy that was sent the copy of the internal Army report on this that was compiled over the last few months.

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Fuck it from behind.

[Heavy]

Did they say what unit these guys were in? Gotta bee some guard unit.

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[Heavy]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- The U.S. military has reprimanded seven soldiers in the alleged abuse of inmates at Baghdad's notorious Abu Ghraib prison, the first known punishments in the case, an official said Monday. Two of the soldiers were relieved of their duties.

The American officer who oversaw the prison said many more troops might have been involved.

The soldiers were reprimanded on the orders of Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq. Six of them -- officers and noncommissioned officers -- received the most severe administrative reprimand in the U.S. military, a military official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. A seventh soldier received a more lenient admonishment.

In Washington, Pentagon spokesman Larry Di Rita spoke of six soldiers who were reprimanded, including two who were ``released for cause,'' meaning they were relieved of their duties and reassigned ``with prejudice.'' He also said the six who received letters of reprimand were from a military police unit. He did not mention the seventh soldier's case.

``There may well be additional decisions'' about disciplinary action against others as a result of the investigation,'' Di Rita added.

The official said he believed the seven officers would not face further action or court martial, but the reprimands could mean the end of their careers.

Another six U.S. servicemembers -- all military police -- also may face criminal charges.

President Bush called Rumsfeld before a campaign trip Monday and urged him to make sure the U.S. soldiers are punished, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

``The president wanted to make sure appropriate action is being taken against those responsible for these shameful and appalling acts,'' he said.

The U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council joined the chorus of international criticism of the alleged abuse, terming it a violation of international law and the Geneva Conventions. The council demanded that U.S. authorities allow Iraqi judges to take part in the interrogation of prisoners and open the detention centers to inspection by Iraqi officials.

At a news conference in Baghdad, Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zibari condemned the alleged abuse and called for an independent inquiry.

Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who oversaw the prison, said that she did not know about the prisoner abuse while it was happening.

``They were despicable acts,'' Karpinski said Monday on ABC's ``Good Morning America.'' ``Had I known anything about it, I certainly would have reacted very quickly.''

Karpinski, commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade, said one photograph from the prison appeared to show more Americans involved in the alleged abuse than the six MPs who have been charged.

``One photograph showed -- it didn't show faces completely, but the photograph showed 32 boots,'' Karpinski told ABC. ``I'm saying other people than the military police.''

It wasn't clear if that would include the seven soldiers reprimanded.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, chief U.S. military spokesman in Iraq, said on ABC that he isn't sure Army military intelligence ``had anything to do with the individual acts of criminal behavior'' as Karpinski and others have alleged. Kimmitt said, however, that the investigation is reviewing ``concerns expressed about the military intelligence.''

Last week, CBS' ``60 Minutes II'' broadcast images allegedly showing Iraqis stripped naked, hooded and being tormented by their U.S. captors.

An internal U.S. Army report found that Iraqi detainees were subjected to ``sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses,'' according to The New Yorker magazine.

A British newspaper also published photos purporting to show members of a British Army regiment abusing prisoners, but a former commander of the unit said Monday that the photos had ``too many inconsistencies'' to be genuine.

The Daily Mirror newspaper stood by the photos, which allegedly show a hooded Iraqi being pushed, threatened and urinated on by a soldier from the Queen's Lancashire Regiment.

Col. D

[TheMojoPin]

I'm gonna flog you if you don't link your articles next time.

Oh, and way to not cite your source at all.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

I cant link this arcticle. If I did, %95 of yous wouldnt be able to read it.


Oh, and way to not cite your source at all.



(AP)



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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
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[TheMojoPin]

Ah, the mark of all fake news stories...slap on an "AP" somewhere...link the fucking thing.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[high fly]

Yesterday, I heard Oliver"Ollie" North on that dunce O'Reilly's radio show say (about the propaganda war ) that "We have lost the information war."

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[HBox]

U.S. Soldiers ride elderly Iraqi woman like a donkey (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&u=/ap/20040505/ap_on_re_eu/britain_iraq_us_prisoner_abuse&printer=1)

I think I'm going to vomit.

http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/hotsbox.jpg

[Dudeman]

and yes, no one <i>deserves</i> to be tortured, but if the lives and safety of service men and women, and civilians are at stake, certain measures need to be taken, if you can't get the info by talking nice.


the problem is that doing this may put our soldiers in great danger. This certainly makes the anti-US feelings stronger.


-I'll log off now, and listen to your
response.-

[Yerdaddy]

U.S. Soldiers ride elderly Iraqi woman like a donkey

I'm not buying that one. The source is a British legistlator who heard about the case from the woman's relatives living in England, and went to Iraqi prisons to "questioned everyone she could about the woman's claims." But she wouldn't say that she questioned any US soldiers? How can you consider it an investigation of US mistreatment if you haven't talked to any US military personnel? Then she considers the situation resolved? What's resolved? You didn't do anything! I don't see any evidence to support this story, which is even more extreme than the other cases of abuses we've seen. Not based on that article anyway.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[Yerdaddy]

<a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/800-mp-bde.htm" target="_blank">The Army report on the investigation into abuses at Abu Graib</a>. It's still easier to read the Seymour Hersh article, based on this report and other interviews he did, that I linked to above.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[curtoid]

New images published in today's Washington Post.

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com)

Man - Ron had his balls busted for his comments last night about this reminding him of hazing gone too far; I think he eventually was able to make his point to where people understood that he wasn't condoning this.

Personally, I do blame those who did this as much as I blame the officers above them, and maybe even those about them. It's like being in a car accident and killing someone because you were drunk - you don't get to make the excuse that you were not in the right frame of mind because you were drunk.

Those who did this should be investigated and courtmarshalled. It's sad, because, I do agree with Ron that *we* did this to them. This country. And everyone who supported the war with all their heart should be forced to see these images and understand the consequences of invading a country against the will of the world - creating a pre-emptive war based on false intellegence - occupying that country - creating a real hotbead of terrorist recruitment - and hanging our soldiers out to dry, with no clear idea of when they are going to return.

Of course, the outrage will be deflected - in the last year Americans were kidnapped and killed, contractors blown up in cars, 800 or so American Soldiers were killed in Iraq, 1000s injured and maimed, and 10,000 (more than 3 X the number of 9/11) Iraqi civilians were killed, meanwhile Al Queda seems to be getting stronger, and no one (especially those that wanted us to go there so that they would be safe in their giant SUVs) here really seems to care. They care more that someone got voted off of American Idol than they do what this country has done in the last year.

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[b][i]Much thanks to M1 for the siggie...!i][b]

This message was edited by curtoid on 5-6-04 @ 7:13 AM

[Mr.Total]

that sucks ass, Iraqi's are going to go crazy now.. i juss saw those pictures this morning on the washingtonpost...

Im new... :-D

[Furtherman]

This behavior did not surprise some psychologists.

Check out thier experiments:

A Fine Line Between `Normal' and `Monster' (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/international/middleeast/06PSYC.html)

<IMG SRC="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=7">
...with thanks to JustJon

[Recyclerz]

In this photo, ... a naked man is cuffed to a bed, with women's underwear on his head.


Hey, who hasn't been in that situation before?



[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]

[DarkHippie]

It seems that Iraq has come full circle. Bush likes to talk about the "rape rooms" under Saddam; What would he call these? The military has even said that 60% of the people that have been detained are not guilty of anything--they are only there for questioning. So our soldiers--perhaps the only Americans that these people have ever met-- are raping innocent people. Yes, I know its not rape as we see it, but come on, they're stripped naked and forced to fake hummers on each other, or sodomized with broomsticks Diallo style.

How do we make this better? How can we ever fuckin make this better?

<IMG SRC=http://home.comcast.net/~jamesgpatton/eo.jpg>
<marquee>"Last night I went running through the screen door of discretion, for I woke up from a nightmare that I could not stand to see. You were a-wandering out on the hills of Iowa and you were not thinking of me." Dar Williams "Traveling III (Iowa)"</marquee>

[Doomstone]

This is the new gulag (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1210588,00.html)



Bush has created what is in effect a gulag. It stretches from prisons in Afghanistan to Iraq, from Guant*namo to secret CIA prisons around the world. There are perhaps 10,000 people being held in Iraq, 1,000 in Afghanistan and almost 700 in Guant*namo, but no one knows the exact numbers. The law as it applies to them is whatever the executive deems necessary. There has been nothing like this system since the fall of the Soviet Union. The US military embraced the Geneva conventions after the second world war, because applying them to prisoners of war protects American soldiers. But the Bush administration, in an internal fight, trumped its argument by designating those at Guant*namo "enemy combatants". Rumsfeld extended this system - "a legal black hole", according to Human Rights Watch - to Afghanistan and then Iraq, openly rejecting the conventions.

Private contractors, according to the Toguba report, gave orders to US soldiers to torture prisoners. Their presence in Iraq is a result of the Bush military strategy of invading with a relatively light force. The gap has been filled by private contractors, who are not subject to Iraqi law or the US military code of justice. Now, there are an estimated 20,000 of them on the ground in Iraq, a larger force than the British army.




<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds_sig.jpg">
Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>

[Doomstone]

http://www.economist.com/images/20040508/20040508issuecovUS400.jpg


Full editorial here (http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2647493)



The decision to detain combatants caught in Afghanistan for an indefinite period, with no access to lawyers and no legal redress, was understandable as a short-term response to the threat of terrorism and to ignorance about who might actually be terrorists, but it was nevertheless both wrong and disastrous for America's reputation. It was wrong because it violated the very values and rule of law for which America was supposedly fighting, and soon produced evidence of double standards: some American citizens captured in Afghanistan were allowed to stand trial in American courts in the normal way, but such rights were denied to mere foreigners, every single one of whom was labelled as a dangerous terrorist by Mr Rumsfeld, regardless of any evidence. It has been disastrous for America's reputation because of that hypocrisy but also because it has become a symbol of a "we'll decide" arrogance.

The Geneva conventions that have governed the treatment of prisoners of war for decades were waved aside. And the argument used to justify America's rejection of the new International Criminal Court-that its soldiers would be vulnerable to unreasonable persecution, with necessary military actions defined as crimes-looked ever more hollow. Thanks to Guant*namo, critics could argue that America really does need the check of the ICC, and that its claim that abuses would readily be dealt with in domestic courts was also hollow.

The domestic courts are now gradually taking on the issues raised by Guant*namo, with a ruling awaited from the Supreme Court. And the promise by Mr Bush and Mr Rumsfeld this week that abuses in Iraq will be punished is no doubt sincere. It may be that the shoulder-shrugging pragmatists are right when they say that abuses are an inevitable consequence of war; and it may be that they would have happened regardless of Guant*namo. But the culture that it represented, with all prisoners considered guilty until proven innocent, with dubious interrogation methods widely considered to be condoned, could well have had an influence on the attitudes and behaviour of lower ranks. To stem such an influence right now, and to offer an indubitable demonstration to all Iraqis of the importance America places on eliminating such abuse, Mr Rumsfeld must take responsibility.



<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds_sig.jpg">
Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>

[high fly]

I was doing some opposition research ande had the Limbaugh show on when they were grilling Rummy on the hill.
I shit you not, Limbaugh managed to find a way to blame it on Clinton.

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[high fly]

U.S. Soldiers ride elderly Iraqi woman like a donkey (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&u=/ap/20040505/ap_on_re_eu/britain_iraq_us_prisoner_abuse&printer=1)

I think I'm going to vomit.



I'm sure there's some "tough guys" on the board (cough)Boondocksaint(cough) who will say that we cannot win the war unless our guys can ride elderly Iraqi women like a donkey.

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[kculG]

I think this whole thing has been blown out. This is not the whole military. I am a US Marine and I know I wouldnt be doing this. This is just a case of retards thinking they are the shit and they do get caught. People think this is just one thing that was one of many events that just got seen. but it isnt its just probably one of only a few. As a Marine I know that rules, and there importance are reinforced every day in the military life.

[Yerdaddy]

As a Marine I know that rules, and there importance are reinforced every day in the military life.

Did you make yourself a general too?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[Dudeman]

This is just a case of retards thinking they are the shit
and they do get caught.


even if this is the case (and i'm not sure if we know that yet,)
there is still the problem of why no one really made any changes
in january when it was becoming well known by the leaders, but
instead it took it coming out in the media for them to make
changes.


-I'll log off now, and listen to your
response.-

This message was edited by Dudeman on 5-9-04 @ 10:24 PM

[high fly]

I think this whole thing has been blown out. This is not the whole military.


GLUCK! Just who, praytell, is saying that it IS the whole military?

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[Recyclerz]

Part 2 of the Hersh/New Yorker Article (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040517fa_fact2)

The Right Wing media outlets seem determined to spin that the first set of pictures only demonstrate that a bunch of rouge knuckleheads were going Lord of the Flies on the Iraqi prisoners. I cannot believe any fair-minded person could swallow that after reading Hersh's New Yorker articles and the summary of the Taguba report that were linked earlier.

I'm not trying to imply that these incidents prove that America is somehow morally corrupt and no different that Sadaam's regime. I know that is not true.

I am trying to imply that the Bush administration's prosecution of the Iraqi War is of a piece with virtually every other one of its initiatives:
short sighted in its conception; half-assed in its implementation; and fucked-up in its results.



[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]

[curtoid]

I heard on the news tonight that the Red Cross reported that 90% of those arrested in Baghdad turned out to be innoncent - I would love if someone could find a link to a story confirmng this, or what, because that just seems nuts if it's true.

Supposedly, the Red Cross has been reporting this for over a year, and that these reports did go as high as the White House, however it wasn't until pictures were reported and made public to people stand up and take notice. Again - this was from the NBC news tonight.

Maybe later i'll find some time to search these reports out too.





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[b][i]Much thanks to M1 for the siggie...!i][b]

[Doomstone]

I heard on the news tonight that the Red Cross reported that 90% of those arrested in Baghdad turned out to be innoncent - I would love if someone could find a link to a story confirmng this, or what, because that just seems nuts if it's true.


Sure.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15492-2004May10.html


In a report issued in February, the Red Cross stated that some military intelligence officers estimated 70 percent to 90 percent of "the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake." Of the 43,000 Iraqis who have been imprisoned at some point during the occupation, only about 600 have been referred to Iraqi authorities for prosecution, according to U.S. officials.



<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds_sig.jpg">
Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>

[Doomstone]

When the rest of these photos come out - and I can't imagine they won't - will the shit really hit the fan?

Lawmakers view new photos of Iraqi prisoner abuse (http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/nation/8653006.htm)



Some 1,600 photographs and videos that military investigators uncovered in their probe of Abu Ghraib show images of violence more graphic and troubling than the pictures that have appeared so far in the world media, said members of Congress who saw them. Only lawmakers were allowed to view the photos.

But the photographic evidence shed little light on how much U.S. military commanders knew about and directed the mistreatment of prisoners, senators and representatives said. And, a day after an al-Qaida-affiliated cell cited abuse of Iraqi prisoners as justification for its beheading of an American civilian, political leaders were divided over whether the sensational images should be released to the public.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., described the images as "very, very appalling to all the senators."

"I felt like I was looking into one of the rings of hell and it's a ring of hell of our own creation," said Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill. "It made me angry and sad to think that Americans in uniform were doing this."

In one photograph, a male Iraqi prisoner is shown sodomizing himself with a foreign object, said Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz. In a video, prisoners are shown lined up in a row masturbating for the camera, said several members of Congress.

A young Iraqi woman was shown with her breasts bared, apparently because she was forced to disrobe, said several people who had seen it.

"From the look on her face, it looks uncomfortable," said Sen. Peter Fitzgerald, R-Ill.

Iraq is an Islamic country with deeply conservative mores. Public nudity is strictly forbidden and many women wear headscarfs or veils. Reports that U.S. soldiers have touched fully clothed women to perform searches regularly provoke waves of anti-American sentiment.

A video clip lasting about three minutes showed an Iraqi prisoner lashed to the a metal cell door beating his head against the door until he slumps down toward the floor, said Rep. Bob Filner, D-Calif.

"It looked like they were forcing him to do it. There was so much blood and he was in so much pain," Filner said. At one point, the prisoner paused and looked at the camera operator before continuing, Filner said.

Another photo appeared to show a U.S. soldier beating an Iraqi prisoner with a cane. The soldier is captured with a cane in the air over the prisoner, who has welts on his body, said a congressional source.

Soldiers also were shown posing with a dead Iraqi, although the circumstances of his death are unclear, said several members of Congress.




On "60 Minutes II" later Wednesday, CBS broadcast a videotape made by an unnamed female soldier at another Iraqi prison camp that suggested detainees were abused there as well.

The video did not depict any new atrocities and focused on the large number of detainees handled by a small number of military police officers at Camp Bucca.

However, the unnamed soldier did accompany the footage with audio comment, including such statements as, "We just killed another Iraqi last night. I don't know what's going on," and "I actually got in trouble the other day because I was throwing rocks at them."

In another section of the tape, she said: "We actually shot two prisoners today. One got shot in the chest for swinging a pole at our people."

As the tape showed a dead sand viper, the soldier explained that the snakes already had killed two prisoners.

"Who cares?" she said. "That's two less for me to worry about."



[quote]
A lawyer for one of the soldiers who faces charges in the scandal blamed "higher-ups" for ordering Army Pfc. Lynndie England to pose for photos while holding a leash tied to an Iraqi prisoner in one of the more sensational pictures to emerge thus far.

"There were several people who were telling her to pos

[monsterone]

like i said in another post, how do you fight a war where the geneva convention appies to 1 side but not the other?

al quida does not apply, so what do you espect?

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="red" size="1"> dead in the middle of little italy little did we know every riddle's a middleman who didn't do diddily </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

[Doomstone]

And Al Qaeda are asking, how do we fight a war when they have tanks and body armor and smart missiles and nukes and all we have are AK-47's and machetes.

We should adhere to the Geneva Convention because it's there to protect us, and we're <i>supposed to be</i> the good guys. We're the moral standard by which everyone else is supposed to judge themselves. So it's important that we live up to those standards

Also, as has been pointed out, up to 90% of the prisoners in AG haven't even been charged with anything. There's innocent people up in there, being tortured and raped and murdered. These are the people we're supposed to be liberating? Christ. Check out THIS POST (http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_03_01_riverbendblog_archive.html#108059254488 988448) from <i>Baghdad Burning</i>, an Iraqi girl's blog I linked to in the Favorite Blogs thread. Check the date - March 29, a month before the 60 Minutes episode that first aired the AG photos. The story of an innocent family - innocent, at least according to the blogger - being hauled off to prison in the early hours of the morning, and beaten and interrogated, all because someone made a false accusation.

These are the people of Iraq. They're not Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda are the ones who slit Berg's throat and broadcast it for the world. The Iraqi people are the ones who were poor and oppressed and we're saving from the evil dictator Saddam so they can live free and drink Starbucks and watch American Idol.

Or are they the enemy?

I wonder how us Americans would react if our country were invaded, our citizens taken prisoner, beaten and abused and humiliated by an invading army. Would we fight back? I would hope so.

<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds_sig.jpg">
Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>

[TheMojoPin]

like i said in another post, how do you fight a war where the geneva convention appies to 1 side but not the other?

And like I said in that other thread, we already did it with two much larger armies willing to break the Geneva convention whenever they felt like it at the same time...Germany and Japan in WW2. Us having to deal with an "unfair" enemy is nothing new. We've dealt with it before. It's not an excuse to just start going apeshit because it makes us "feel" better.

I'm still waiting for the reason the Geneva Convention does not apply to US. The other side acting like savages isn't a go-ahead for us to do the same. Then what moral highground do we have to call them savages in the first place? We can start sodomizing our prisoners and then, say, beheading them...but our justification basically amounts to, "hey, THEY did it first. We're not the bad guys!"

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-13-04 @ 12:44 PM

[monsterone]

I wonder how us Americans would react if our country were invaded, our citizens taken prisoner, beaten and abused and humiliated by an invading army. Would we fight back? I would hope so.



we have and we kicked the brits asses. i agree with you gentlemen, but first i have to state any time there is violence, fucked up things will happen.

and in war, you have to figure, say you capture an individual who has been shooting at you, or maybe even killed someone in your unit. you wouldn't be tempted to exact a lil revenge.

i know if i have a problem with you at a bar one night, and i see you out later that week, be sure something will go down.

war is the epitome of fucked up things happening and things like this are the nature of the beast. doesn't make it right, just the way it is.

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="red" size="1"> dead in the middle of little italy little did we know every riddle's a middleman who didn't do diddily </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

[Yerdaddy]

we have and we kicked the brits asses.
"The Patriot" was a farce. The British were not the Nazis they were portrayed in that movie. And in that war it was us who were breaking the traditional rules of war by hiding behind trees and hit-and-run attacks instead of fighting the war like a game of Red Rover. For that we were considered savages by the British.


and in war, you have to figure, say you capture an individual who has been shooting at you, or maybe even killed someone in your unit. you wouldn't be tempted to exact a lil revenge.

i know if i have a problem with you at a bar one night, and i see you out later that week, be sure something will go down.

war is the epitome of fucked up things happening and things like this are the nature of the beast. doesn't make it right, just the way it is.

To put it simply, we can't throw out the Code of Military Justice and let the guys run wild like Genghis Khan's Mongol hordes because it's contrary to their mission in Iraq. If you really want to know why "hearts and minds" matter and why we can't just kill all the bad guys and leave, (not because it would be wrong, but because it's intrinsically impossible in assymetric warfare), then go to this thread (http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/87/Topic/36264/page/Some_articles_on_Iraq___counterinsurgency.htm) and read what the military counterinsurgency experts who are over there fighting it have to say.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 5-14-04 @ 12:03 AM

[ChickenHawk]

<IMG SRC="http://homepage.mac.com/papachristmas/.Pictures/iraqifordummies.jpg">

<IMG SRC="http://homepage.mac.com/papachristmas/.Pictures/chickenhawknike.jpg">
HORDE KING FOREVER!!! ORACLE NEVER!!!
<strike>Shock</strike>
<marquee behavior=alternate><font size=2><b>EMFA</b></font></marquee>

[TheMojoPin]

and in war, you have to figure, say you capture an individual who has been shooting at you, or maybe even killed someone in your unit. you wouldn't be tempted to exact a lil revenge.

That's all well and good, but at least half of the people in the prisons where the abuse occured were NOT captured enemy combatants, but people SUSPECTED of MAYBE supporting and aiding the insurgents, or being them themselves...possibly.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[monsterone]

and in war, you have to figure, say you capture an individual who has been shooting at you, or maybe even killed someone in your unit. you wouldn't be tempted to exact a lil revenge.

That's all well and good, but at least half of the people in the prisons where the abuse occured were NOT captured enemy combatants, but people SUSPECTED of MAYBE supporting and aiding the insurgents, or being them themselves...possibly.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."


it is way too soon to tell if those statistics are true, and i am playing devils advocate.

i am coming from a prospretive when war arises, it unleashes the worst in people. as humans, we are not capable of having a civilized war, as dictated by the geneva conventions.

also, i am coming from a perspective that the people we are at war with have a mentality that applied 500 yeas ago. 500 years ago, christians, muslims, jews, etc... resproted to eye for and eye, brutal tatics.

we live in a "civilized world" now that tries to civilize war (as inconcievable as it is). these people live in a mind set that is very dangerous considering the weapons technology we have today and can do greater harm to this planet and civilization than they can do good. so they have a choise, change or be eliminated.

we are better of with out these people as a one world nation and they rebel against it. they have no good to offer to society and we are doing the right thing by ridding the world of them.

but war is war, and the worst thing s will happen. like ronnie said, the images are little more than hazings, and day by ay info is coming out. so don't be so quick to judge.

shit, my head is spinning regarding the berg beheading, yet i am still sickended by it. and always remember, there is military intellegence. just b/c we have 24 hr news, doesn't mean we get the whole story. some things do need to be hidden from us. that also, is the nature of war.

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="red" size="1"> dead in the middle of little italy little did we know every riddle's a middleman who didn't do diddily </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

[Yerdaddy]

Seriously, read <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/800-mp-bde.htm" target="_blank">Taguba report</a>. Read <a href="http://www.petermaass.com/core.cfm?p=1&mag=120&magtype=1" target="_blank">The Counterinsurgent</a>. In them the military itself will tell you why it disagrees with you completely on how we need to treat prisoners and how we need to fight an "assymetric war."

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[curtoid]

we have and we kicked the brits asses.

With more than a little help from the French.



http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v64/curtoid/45.gif
[b][i]Much thanks to M1 for the siggie...!i][b]

[curtoid]

A lot has been made the last couple of days about the death of Nick Berg was "bad timing" or "good timing" depending on which side you are on, without people realizing that the people that did this to Berg, did this to Pearl and attacked us on 9/11 are on a third side completely.

They WANT the United States to be pissed, and to keep fighting. Al Queda, and the splinter groups, are looking for a holy war, and anything that continues to put Americans on the offensive is better for them. They could give a rat's ass about Iraq being free, except that it now means that they can move around the country, unlike when Saddam was there. They want chaos.

What we have there is the mother of all cluster fucks; we have the different factions in Iraq who want us out of there so they can take control, and we have the rogue terrorists seeping in from our allies, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, trying to make a bad thing worse, because they know it will help their cause in recruiting. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that those behind the attacks on September 11th were not idiots; they were counting on us to attack the middle east, spill the blood of innocents and be held up on the world stage (or at least the third world stage) as the REAL monsters and terrorists, and we fell for it.

We helped muddy the situation by blurring the two wars; we routinely refer to the guerlla fighters in Iraq - those we were holding in the prison - as "terrorists," when all they are doing is fighting the occupiers of their country.

Not that I'm making excuses for them either, I'm just making a distinction. Most of those men in that prison were the people we went there to help. The men who cut off Nick Berg's head are counting on the fact that we can't tell the difference between any of those browned skinned people.

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[b][i]Much thanks to M1 for the siggie...!i][b]

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

<IMG SRC="http://homepage.mac.com/papachristmas/.Pictures/iraqifordummies.jpg">



If only you knew how much that makes me laugh!

<IMG SRC=http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/guests/alice2_sig.jpg>

It's a cat house! A CAT HOUSE! Thanks M1!

[TheMojoPin]

i am coming from a prospretive when war arises, it unleashes the worst in people. as humans, we are not capable of having a civilized war, as dictated by the geneva conventions.

I don't disagree with this...but that doesn't mean we let it slide when people get so blatantly busted.

we are better of with out these people as a one world nation and they rebel against it. they have no good to offer to society and we are doing the right thing by ridding the world of them.

Who, the people in the prisons? Nobody is arguing against dead terrorists. What most of us are arguing FOR here are potentially massive amounts of innocent people being abused by their "liberators" in the same prisons they were tortured in before...and people are attempting to downplay it by essentially saying, "well, it's less worse torture!"

but war is war, and the worst thing s will happen. like ronnie said, the images are little more than hazings, and day by ay info is coming out. so don't be so quick to judge.

Some of them ended up raped. Some of them ended up dead. Some "hazing."

shit, my head is spinning regarding the berg beheading, yet i am still sickended by it.

Honestly, why bring this up this way in this particular discussion? It's only been linked and compared to the prison abuse scandals...BY THE TERRORISTS WHO KILLED HIM AND MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED HIM ANYWAY EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE THIS "EXCUSE."

(Sorry if it appears I'm yelling. I'm not trying to be a dick...it just pisses me off that those murdering assholes basically got their wish in that they have people mentioning Berg in relation to the prison abuse. Like they wouldn't have killed him anyways...)

there is military intellegence.

Our faulty intelligence services got us into this entire mess in the first place. Pardon me if I don't feel 100% comfortable with the info they think they're getting.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-14-04 @ 12:56 PM

[high fly]

One of the things that pisses me off about this story is that Al Jazeera has been claiming since last summer that we abused the prisoners.


Now that's a fine kettle of fish, Al Jazeera being more honest with the American people than our own government.







" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[HBox]

Holy Shit. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5024068/)

These sources say the prisoners there are hooded from the moment they are captured. They are kept in tiny dark cells. And in the BIF's six interrogation rooms, Delta Force soldiers routinely drug prisoners, hold a prisoner under water until he thinks he's drowning, or smother them almost to suffocation.

I HOPE this isn't true.

[TheMojoPin]

But, at the same time...

Delta Force's BIF only holds Iraqi insurgents and suspected terrorists

...so while that's not a "free pass," it does present a different situation from Abu Ghraib, and shows the two prisons are not exactly comparable.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[NewYorkDragons80]

[quote]What Went Wrong
The flaw in Seymour Hersh's theory.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Tuesday, May 18, 2004, at 9:52 AM PT


The most surprising thing about Seymour Hersh's latest New Yorker essay on the Abu Ghraib depravities is surely its title. It is headed "The Gray Zone." Can that be right? It seems to be generally assumed that the work of the sniggering video-morons is black and white: one of the very few moral absolutes of which we have a firm and decided grasp.

But Hersh's article wants to argue that the fish rots from the head, as indeed it very often does (even though, metaphorically speaking, one might think that the fish's guts would be the first to decay). And in order to argue this top-down process, he decides to propose that it began with Sept. 11. "In a sense," as he himself cautiously phrases it, this could arguably be true. As he reports:

Almost from the start, the Administration's search for Al Qaeda members in the war zone, and its worldwide search for terrorists, came up against major command-and-control problems. For example, combat forces that had Al Qaeda forces in sight had to obtain legal clearance before firing on them. On October 7th,the night the bombing began, an unmanned Predator aircraft tracked an automobile convoy that, American intelligence believed, contained Mullah Muhammed Omar, the Taliban leader. A lawyer on duty at the United States Central Command headquarters in Tampa, Florida, refused to authorize a strike. By the time an attack was approved, the target was out of reach.

Hersh has reported this tale before, along with the furious reaction that Donald Rumsfeld displayed when he heard the news. And, as he further reminds us, the Washington Post "reported that, as many as ten times since early October [2001], Air Force pilots believed they'd had senior Al Qaeda and Taliban members in their sights but had been unable to act in time because of legalistic hurdles."

These, and many other bureaucratic and butt-covering obstacles, according to Hersh and others, engendered such frustration at the top of the Pentagon that ruthless methods were discreetly ordered and discreetly applied. Thus, from the abysmal failure to erase Mullah Omar comes the howling success in trailer-porn tactics at Abu Ghraib.

More than one kind of non sequitur is involved in this "scenario." And very obviously, the conclusion can exist quite apart from the premises. (There would have been sadistic dolts in the American occupation forces in Iraq, even if there had not been wavering lawyerly fools in the Tampa center that was monitoring Afghanistan.) One needs to stipulate, once again, that the filthy images from Abu Ghraib are not bad because they look bad, but bad because they are bad. Yet is it as obvious as it seems that only the supporters of the war have any questions to answer here?

I ask this because, in the news cycle that preceded the Iraq atrocities, the administration was being arraigned from dawn until dusk for the offense of failing to take timely measures against the Taliban and al-Qaida. I hardly need to recapitulate the indictment here. We had our chance to see it coming, and to see where it was coming from, and the administration comprehensively blew all these chances, from the first warnings of suicide-hijacking to the cosseting of Saudi visa applicants. I might add that I completely agree with all these condemnations and wrote about many of them (including the spiriting of the Bin Laden relatives out of the country during a "no-fly" period imposed upon the rest of us) at the time.

But there is no serious way of having this cake and scarfing it. I remember a debate I had with Michael Moore-the newly crowned king of the Cannes Film Festival-at the more modest location of the Telluride Film Festival in 2002. Ridiculing the Bush administration's policy, he shouted that it had gone into Afghanistan to get Osama Bin Laden and Mullah Omar. "Mission NOT accomplished!" he added, to roars of easy applause. I asked myself then, and I repeat the question now: Would the antiw

[TheMojoPin]

Interesting editorial, NYD.

Outside of the fact Hitchens dances around the issue that nobody seems to know if Mullah Omar was actually in his much-vaunted convoy or not, it's got a very interesting viewpoint.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

What did that editorial have to do with Hersh's piece though? He made a couple of vague references, but what was his point? He repeated Hersh's report of the Pentagon's struggles between action and the legal barriers within the Pentagon, but he didn't seem to disagree with Hersh on that. He certainly repeated suggested that the soldiers in the pictures were guilty and evil "sadistic dolts," and I suppose by omission of reference to the more systematic problems pointed out in the Taguba Report that he wants us to restrict our blame to those few. I see the obligatory reference to Michael Moore. But what was the substance of the editorial? I read it slowly and carefully and, as usual with Hitchens, I don't really know what he was trying to say. That's what I didn't like about Hitchens when he was a liberal and I still don't like it about him now that he's a born-again neocon. He uses alot of 75 cent words, but he never gets to the point. Hell, he's even worse than me!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 5-21-04 @ 1:32 AM

[TheMojoPin]

Can you paraphrase all that, please?

I ain't got time to read.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

You work in a bookstore! (allegedly)

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[TheMojoPin]

Just because I sell the smack doesn't mean I gotta shoot it.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[curtoid]

More and more stories of the abuse and pictures are making their way out. Including stills from videos of Iraqi's being struck, and being forced to engage in sexual acts.

washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com)

On a side note, this nightmare did give us an excellent segment of radio on Ron and Fez this week, when they played the new game show "Did This Happen on The Hideout or in an Iraqi Prison?"

For anyone who missed it, it was really, really funny - Fez would read off various disturbing and (usually) gay acts, and the listener would have to identify where it too place - on "The Hideout with El Jefe and J Dubs" or in the prison. Oddly, it seems the worst abuse took place late at night at WJFK!



http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v64/curtoid/45.gif
[b][i]Much thanks to M1 for the siggie...!i][b]

[NewYorkDragons80]

What did that editorial have to do with Hersh's piece though?
Hersh wants to further the idea that dressing prisoners like a Victoria Secret model was a direct order from Rumsfeld. Hitchens tries to debunk that and prove that Hersh was among the people who wants to get tough on terrorism some of the time, then gets upset when we are tough the rest of the time.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
<img src=http://members.aol.com/cityhawk80/images/nydragonssig.bmp?mtbrand=AOL_US>

[Yerdaddy]

dressing prisoners like a Victoria Secret model
Rape. Torture. Murder. Deliberately sexually humiliating Muslim men as a form of torture or blackmail. You can downplay it if you want. But public Americans like Hitchens and Bush cannot dodge responsibility, or downplay it in public, without damaging us even more in the eyes of the Iraqis and the Arab and Muslim world, ie. creating more terrorists and insurgents.

Hitchens tries to debunk that and prove that Hersh was among the people who wants to get tough on terrorism some of the time, then gets upset when we are tough the rest of the time.
Hitchens needs to build a better straw man then. I want us to get tough on terrorism, but that doens't mean I have to goose step behind the president regardless of what he does. Whatever the Pentagon lawers were afraid of about pulling the trigger on al-Qaeda leaders was not Hersh's fault, and Herhs writing about it in his article, if anything makes the problem public and gives us a chance to tell our public officials to end those legal barriers. Hitchens' complaints about Hersh make no sense, and amount to irresponsible childish hyperbole.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[curtoid]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040521/capt.dcwap10605212045.iraq_prisoner_abuse_dcwap106 .jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040521/capt.dcwap10905212044.iraq_prisoner_abuse_dcwap109 .jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040521/capt.dcwap10705212043.iraq_prisoner_abuse_dcwap107 .jpg

This is going to be much more than just 7 soldiers; also, I have yet to see a soldier, in any of the pictures that have come forward, that looked like they were *forced* to do these things. Maybe they were instructed what to do, but none of them had to be told to have such a good time at it.

Here's one with a corpse.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040520/capt.sge.sdf87.200504192837.photo00.default-384x288.jpg

Disgrace.



http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v64/curtoid/45.gif
[b][i]Much thanks to M1 for the siggie...!i][b]

[TheMojoPin]

John Ashcroft...refusing to obey the law of the land and the power of the government...JUST BECAUSE HE CAN!!! (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/08/prisoner.abuse.whitehouse.ap/index.html)

What a monstrous dicklick.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Recyclerz]

http://www.thecolumnists.com/castillo/castillo12art6.jpeg


Memo? We ain't got no memo. We don't need no memo. I don't have to show you any stinking memo.




<IMG SRC="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US">
[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]

[TheMojoPin]

Pentagon: Military Hid Iraq Prisoner from Red Cross (http://cnn.aimtoday.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-RTO-rontz&idq=/ff/story/0002%2F20040617%2F0733786513.htm&sc=rontz&photoid=20040614XBAG109)

No we're running into a different area. You have the "grey area" which sometimes comes up with the torture/abuse and what is happening to whom...but THIS is just flat-out wrong (There is NOT, however, evidence he was abused in any way, just that his existence was purposely hidden), especially if we're supposed to be the "good guys." There's no way around the following statement if we truly want to play that role...

Both assigning a prisoner number and notifying the Red Cross are required under the Geneva Conventions and other international humanitarian laws.

And people can't keep falling behind the whole "well, THEY don't follow that stuff"-cop out, because we HAVE to be setting a higher standard. How do we win a war, ANY kind of war, if we're only "less bad" than the bad guys, instead of actually trying to be the good guys? "We're better than Saddam Hussein" is NOT the standard we should be settling for.

And this issue could very easily have been a mistake. It's chaotic over there, and things can easily get confused. This particular story bothered me, however, for two specific reasons...

Defense officials confirmed that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld ordered military officials to hold the suspected member of the Ansar al-Islam guerrilla group last November

...Rummy ending up being so much more hands-on with the prisoner issues AGAIN when he keeps trying to distance himself and his office...

(George) Tenet -- who recently resigned as CIA chief -- had asked Rumsfeld to make the move last year after the "high-value" detainee, believed to have been actively involved in planning attacks on U.S.-led forces in Iraq, was captured.

...was this prisoner's existence revealed finally because Tenet resigned, or would he have gone on as a "ghost" unless somebody stumbled upon him?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to throw my bleeding heart at everyone here...look at it this way: if this guy is such a valuable prisoner, and he had been "lost in the system" as it's been described, what if he escaped? Or wrongly set free? Who's going to know or notice? Then this guy, if he really is an insurgance planner, is free to attack our troops all over again! My issue isn't even with how this guy was treated...but with how close we could have come to ACTUALLY "losing" him and him being "back on the streets."

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Doomstone]

I can't imagine how they'll try to justify hiding prisoners from the Red Cross? I mean, why? What does it accomplish?

Sadly though, this isn't anything new, the only real news here is that Rummy himself ordered it/knew about it. Amazing how far we as a nation have fallen - 3 years ago, could we have imagined Americans trying to justify torture and blatant violations of international conventions on the treatment of prisoners of war? It's a slippery slope, and we're going down it at high speed.

Anyway, Mojo, you might be interested in this post from Billmon from May 5th on the subject of Ghost Prisoners:

http://billmon.org/archives/001455.html



But the most chilling revelation doesn't have anything directly to do with either the known atrocities or the slapstick soldiering within the prison. The scariest figures described in Taguba's report are the ghosts - specifically, the ghost prisoners:

<i>The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs) without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention. The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib called these detainees "ghost detainees."

On at least one occasion, the 320th MP Battalion at Abu Ghraib held a handful of "ghost detainees" (6-8) for OGAs that they moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) survey team. This maneuver was deceptive, contrary to Army Doctrine, and in violation of international law. (Findings and Recommendations, Part II, No. 33)</i>

This suggests the existence of an entirely off-the-books detention system within Iraq, run by the CIA, (or some other "other government agency") and kept secret not just from the American and Iraqi publics but from the International Red Cross as well.

When I read about the "ghosts" of Abu Ghraib, I immediately thought of this passage from an Amnesty International report back in December:

<i>...abuses are alleged to have taken place in an interrogation section on the second floor of the Bagram detention facility, to which representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross - who visit other parts of the facility - are reportedly denied access. (emphasis added)</i>

There's no way in the world the practice of keeping "ghost detainees" in secret confinement - in flagrant violation of the Geneva Convention - can be written off as an "isolated abuse." This is like something out of Kiss of the Spider Woman, or journalist Jacobo Timerman's account of his time in a secret Argentine political prison, Prisoner Without a Name, Cell Without a Number.

Is this what CIA counterterrorism chief Cofer Black meant when he said that after 9/11, "the gloves came off?"

And did the humanity come off with them?



<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds2_sig.jpg">
M1 rules!
</center>

[TheMojoPin]

$100 this gets brushed off as "just a part of war"...AGAIN.

Thanks for the article, DS. It's an eye-opening read...though I'm not a fan of the use of Cofer's quote. He wouldn't have been involved with this or really any of the Iraq fiasco, and he's deifnitely good people.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-17-04 @ 2:33 PM

[42nd-delay]

Still going on...

Ex-Detainee Says He Was Tortured (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/13/international/middleeast/13habib.html?ei=5094&en=9e7c66fbed924803&hp=&ex=1108270800&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all&position=)


Mr. Habib's lawyers have alleged that he was sent to Egypt as part of the rendition program, which the United States has used increasingly to transfer terror suspects to countries where they can be interrogated, sometimes using practices not allowed in the United States, according to American diplomats and C.I.A. officers. In recent months, several stories have emerged of men who say they were the subject of renditions and complain of being mistreated by their captors.



He said he was dragged from the room, handcuffed. "And they hang me from the ceiling," he said. "They got sticks and everyone, they go on beating me." He lifted his shirt to show the bruise on his back. "I want to die," he said.



He said that during one interrogation session, a woman wearing a skirt said to him, "You Muslim people don't like to see woman," he said. Then she reached under her skirt, Mr. Habib said, pulling out what he described as a bloody stick. "She threw the blood in my face," he said.



The physical abuse, he said, ranged from a kick "that nearly killed me" to electric shocks administered through a wired helmet that he said interrogators told him could detect whether he was lying.


Apparently nothing changed from Abu Garib, it's just been outsourced to other countries. I always thought we're a country that disavowed torture, that was better than the others. If Bush wants us to be torturers, he should at least admit that we sanction it, instead of denying reality.

------------------------------

<img src="http://www.thewalkons.com/bluestates_sig.jpg">

"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

[torker]

There is a part of his experience that Mr. Habib will not address, the months before the Sept. 11 attacks when Australian intelligence officials say Mr. Habib trained at two camps for Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. The officials also said Mr. Habib told his wife in a phone call just days before Sept. 11 that something big was going to happen in the United States.


sign zee papers old man


[center]<IMG SRC=http://home.comcast.net/~rmfallon/RFnettorker1313.jpg>[center]
[center]Take my soul to the lost and found [center]

[LiquidCourage]

Punks like this definitely need to be deal with. Forced sodomy? They should definitely fry.

[Bulldogcakes]

Notice the word "Allegedly". No ones been convicted of anything yet. Lets take it easy before we accept these charges as Gospel. IF they're guilty, I'm sure they'll be dealt with appropriately.


I allege to have spent the last 10 years as Mojo's boyfriend, and I demand compensation.

I cant prove it, but maybe some folks will believe this too.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL77/857148/1548180/76422236.jpg


Ow! Hey! Get that net offa me! Ouch! Help!! Somebody HELP!!!!

This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 2-18-05 @ 10:04 PM

[TheMojoPin]

I was REALLY drunk.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."