Rumsfeld is a pig liar

[ToxicGarden]

Just like George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld is a lying,stuttering pig. An evil liar like George Bush. This is the greatest military blunder EVER.
(1) the US losers who were posing in those pics, should be hung by their vocal chords & stoned.
Especialy that smiley bitch.

Currently watching RUmsfeld & his fat, old, evil ass being grilled by this bullshit hearing Comit.
Saddam is gone. Americans are dying left & right.
Bush & Rumsfeld are intoxicated on power.
EVIL FUCKERS.
Do something your father should of done and PULL OUT.

Thanks for making America proud guys!



Did she make you cry
Make you break down
Shatter your illusions of love

[furie]

what part of June 30th did you not understand?


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/lee_grassy.jpg" height=100 width=300">

[ToxicGarden]

what part of June 30th did you not understand?

Nothing is going to change after June 30th in Iraq.
"our troops" will still be there. "our troops" & contractors will still be slaughtered and drug through the streets.

I'm saying fuck em. Pack the truck! (dont forget the oil) & bring EVERYONE home. Leave Iraq be. Liberate the American families of these innocent, brave kids who are dying and being burnt, hung from bridges, drug through the streets by a bunch of ungrateful animals. WTF happen to MISSION ACOMPLISHED?
Fuck Bush & Rumsfeld.




Did she make you cry
Make you break down
Shatter your illusions of love

[Def Dave in SC]

Saddam is gone. Americans are dying left & right.


You spoiled little bitch. Sure Americans dying is a bad thing. Unfortunately though, some things are still worth doing even if it may have some unsavory consequences.

Trust me, as wars or conflicts go, our casualties are pretty minimal.



Do something your father should of done and PULL OUT


Bush, SR did pull out. He pushed the Iraqi forces back accross their own borders, and did not proceed into Iraq itself.




"our troops" & contractors will still be slaughtered and drug through the streets.


You make it sound as if this is a daily occurance. No. Wrong. Two isolated incidents and you start crying that all our troops are being dragged through the streets.

Also, as far as contractors go, I can't say I feel real sorry for a bunch of guys who are profiteering on a broke, third-world country after winning no-bid contracts because of former CEOs who now work in the Administration.


Now, as far as the blind fury directed towards this administration--SHUT UP. Extremist, ranting views are rarely taken seriously. Take a deep breath, count to ten, and shut up.

If you feel strongly about this, and you want to be taken seriously, you need to do more than a little research, try looking at opposing viewpoints.

And most of all, try expressing your views in a way that most adults would. Save the yelling for the playground.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=DefDave"><br>

Much Love to my Homies dcpete, Todd EVF, Pantera, Tall_James, Saddlelight Kam (sp?) and everyone else who made me a sig


UCF:AYBABTU

[mikeyboy]

Do something your father should of done and PULL OUT


Bush, SR did pull out. He pushed the Iraqi forces back accross their own borders, and did not proceed into Iraq itself.



I don't think he means militarily. I think it's a dumb conception joke.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=mikeyboy">
Ron & Fez Show Log (http://www.osirusonline.com/ronfez.htm)

[Freakshow]

Do something your father should of done and PULL OUT.

Actually I think this one was a reference to Bush's conception. Like if his father had pulled out he never would have been born. That kind of thing.

Other than that, nice work.

Edit: Jinx Mikeyboy

<img src=http://www.christpuncherrecords.com/sigs/moon.jpg>
I don't have a cat

This message was edited by Freakshow on 5-7-04 @ 1:57 PM

[Def Dave in SC]

I didn't catch that whole contraception thing; although now it seems so obvious.

Oh well, I'll misplace my anger by kicking my cat. Tootaloo!!!!!!!!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=DefDave"><br>

Much Love to my Homies dcpete, Todd EVF, Pantera, Tall_James, Saddlelight Kam (sp?) and everyone else who made me a sig


UCF:AYBABTU

[Freakshow]

You should listen to more 7 Year Bitch (the song is from 92--about the first Bush).


No Fucking War


We're fucking poor
We're very poor
We're really poor
We're fucking poor

Bush pull out
Like your father should have
Continue to ignore
We're gonna take it to the streets
We'll start a fucking riot
I wanna fucking riot
It's time to fucking riot
Who wants to fucking riot?

No fucking war
No fucking war
No fucking war
No fucking war

Dance and sing, plead
Pray for peace
But they won't hear you
No not in the least
You're in reach and
You've got to shove
Cuz silence
Is defeat
Yes silence
Is defeat



<img src=http://www.christpuncherrecords.com/sigs/moon.jpg>
I don't have a cat

This message was edited by Freakshow on 5-7-04 @ 3:33 PM

[Yerdaddy]

the point of this thread is?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[jeffdwright2001]

Oh well, I'll misplace my anger by kicking my cat. Tootaloo!!!!!!!!
Your cat's name is Tootaloo?

[ToxicGarden]

the point of this thread is?

to mock news junkies & monday morning quarterbax...& to insult Rumsfeld.

fuck it from behind
I DO

Did she make you cry
Make you break down
Shatter your illusions of love

This message was edited by ToxicGarden on 5-7-04 @ 3:49 PM

[Tall_James]

to mock news junkies & monday morning quarterbax...& to insult Rumsfeld.

Rumsfeld hasn't posted here in over a year. Odds are he won't even see your post.


<img src=http://home.comcast.net/~jamesgpatton/tj2_sig.gif>

Say, that reminds me! How'd you get that kid s'darned fast? Me'n Dottie went in to adopt on account of
something went wrong with my semen, and they told us five years' wait for a healthy white baby! I said healthy
white baby! Five years! Okay, what else you got? Said, two Koreans and one Negro bom with the heart outside.

[center]The Best Blog You're Not Reading (http://cheeseeatingbird.blogspot.com)

[Mike Teacher]

This is the greatest military blunder EVER.


Just the most visible. In terms of blunders? Well some/most arent blunders, just events, and in terms of 'greatest' this ebtire war doesnt hold a candle to some of these, just from memory:

Invasion of Tarawa
USS Indianapolis
My Lai
Iwo Jima
Pearl Harbor

and thats just us. The peeps that fought us and others through the century? Yow. And in terms of atrocities, this is a whisper in the hurricane of Pol Pot Dachau Auswitz Stalin Bergen-Belsen Idi Amin The Rape of Nanking Rwanda etc et al ad nauseum.




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[jeffdwright2001]

Tall James is right.

I think Rumsfield moved to DC and his contract is up for renewal in a few months. Don't know what will happen, but rumor has it that he might take an offer from a place in Florida.

[jeffdwright2001]

[quote]Just the most visible. In terms of blunders? Well some/most arent blunders, just events, and in terms of 'greatest' this ebtire war doesnt hold a candle to some of these, just from memory:

Invasion of Tarawa
USS Indianapolis
My Lai
Iwo Jima
Pearl Harbor
Might as well add Custer's bonehead move to that list. That was pretty blunderriffic.

[Freakshow]

I would vote one of the most serious military blunders as one that happened 50 years ago today--Dien Bien Phu.

Pretty much still was causing people to die 15 years later and beyond.



<img src=http://www.christpuncherrecords.com/sigs/moon.jpg>
I don't have a cat

[Mike Teacher]

Well Done Freak, and I thought of a couple more:

Assasination of Lincoln; as Commander-In-Chief I'll call that a Military blunder, though weak.

Gettysburg.

The entire Allied bombing campaign of WW2, from a Brit standpoint. The loses of planes and crew vis a vis targets hit and damage done? Freeman Dyson Screamed at the RAF to stop the Runs; they were suicide, he said. They often were.

Our underestimation of japanese strength on almost all of the pacific island theatre campaigns.

Korea; we really blew it. The weather was unreal; I forget the casualties from Hypothermia Alone. And the new technology, helicopters, were slamming into the mountians of Korea so often everyone was like, can we cancel this 'Helicopter' idea? We totally blew it on weather conditions there.

Napoleans March into Russia. Someone help me here; some Army marched into Russia and basically it was another Bataan Death March, this time from cold.

Gallipoli. A horrific, horrific mistake. To order the charges on those trenchs. Suicide.

Anzio Campaign.



<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[Freakshow]

I always thought Antietam was the bigger Civil War blunder. McClellan had the actual plans for what Lee was going to do (which were found in tree in Frederick) and he sat and did nothing for several days. If Mclellan used the plans to his advantage and smashed Lee's army, the possibly could have ended in as little as a few weeks and this was in 1862. The war lasted until 1865.

link: <a href="http://www.4reference.net/encyclopedias/wikipedia/Battle_of_Antietam.html">so many blunders</a>

<img src=http://www.christpuncherrecords.com/sigs/moon.jpg>
I don't have a cat

This message was edited by Freakshow on 5-7-04 @ 5:05 PM

[Def Dave in SC]

You know, I really hate when someone posts something that causes them to look awfully foolish, and then instead of sticking to their guns and standing up to the abuse, they simply back down claiming that they were kidding. They usually try and turn it around on us, calling us dumb because A) We didn't get their joke, and/or B) because we responded exactly how he or she expected us to respond.

Now, I'm not trying to start any fights, but come on! If you post inflamatory material, no matter how over the top, you should not be allowed by law to retract your comments for any reason whatsoever.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=DefDave"><br>

Much Love to my Homies dcpete, Todd EVF, Pantera, Tall_James, Saddlelight Kam (sp?) and everyone else who made me a sig


UCF:AYBABTU

[keithy_19]

Def Dave, your so right! That bastard is stealing my bit!

http://www.silentpix.com/modules/Coppermine/albums/userpics/dreamcometruesig.jpg

[zoom2457]

Speaking of blunders, least we forget that Russia got it's ass KICKED by Japan.

"Excuse me, excuse me I believe you have my stapler"

[furie]

wait, how was Iwo Jima a military blunder?


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/lee_grassy.jpg" height=100 width=300">

[Captain Rooster]

(1) the US losers who were posing in those pics, should be hung by their vocal chords & stoned.

1) You have no idea what OUR US women go through over in Iraq every day. The Iraqi men show their genitals to our women on patrol each and every day.

This is why our women HATE the Iraqi men who do not have have common decency.

2) Are you so blind you do not see through the political posturing? The Democrats will make the murdering male Iraqis who were kept in that section of the prison look like happy-go-lucky citizens with no culpability to the killing of our men.

3) YOU try and lead 135,000 soldiers without incident. I have led 130 and they are tough son's of bitches.

Rather, kiss your balls and thank God they're still attached. The Muslim extremists would cut them off before your liberal ass could cry mercy.

Realize the truth.

Ban me if you don't like it.

One of my boys was shot dead on Good Friday keeping your punk, candy asses alive back here in America. Wake the fuck up.



<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

This message was edited by Captain Rooster on 5-7-04 @ 6:56 PM

[ToxicGarden]

This is the greatest blunder of all time. Donald Rumsfeld & George Bush are liars & pigs in my eyes.
I'm sorry to hear about YOUR boy being shot,
I am afraid it's just the begining.
A lot more of "our boys" are going to be shot & taken hostage because of THIS ACT ALONE.so fucking what if guys are showing women their genitals? WHAT LEADER in their right mind would have chicks doing that kind of patrol? Why not remove the female is she is unable to deal with it.
Nothin YOU or this administration says will justify these military morons who have disgraced the nation. This has nothing to do with democrats. This has to do with some punk ass outlaws who punked out naked hostages tied up.
WOW. Uncle Sammy is proud tonight.

Iraqi's are humans too!

ps- next time leave the kodiak home!


Did she make you cry
Make you break down
Shatter your illusions of love

[furie]

ps- next time leave the kodiak home!


???


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/lee_grassy.jpg" height=100 width=300">

[Captain Rooster]

You are just downright ignorant. Read between the lines, Senor Ignoramous.


<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

This message was edited by Captain Rooster on 5-7-04 @ 8:21 PM

[ToxicGarden]

Jeez. A homophobe in the military.. shocking.

I'm not the one posing with a hard on behind the butt pyramid in uniform.

If Bill Clinton were president NONE of this would have happened. Thats all I'm saying.
Goodnight.
Meese is a pig!!!

Did she make you cry
Make you break down
Shatter your illusions of love

This message was edited by ToxicGarden on 5-7-04 @ 8:25 PM

[mikeyboy]

Cut the personal attacks.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=mikeyboy">
Ron & Fez Show Log (http://www.osirusonline.com/ronfez.htm)

[Captain Rooster]

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

This message was edited by Captain Rooster on 5-7-04 @ 8:30 PM

[Captain Rooster]

Toxic,

read a paper....realize the freedoms you have....thank God you live where you live.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

[Captain Rooster]

Mods, ban that fuck. Seriously. I was a mod. thank about it.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

[TooCute]

1) You have no idea what OUR US women go through over in Iraq every day. The Iraqi men show their genitals to our women on patrol each and every day.

This is why our women HATE the Iraqi men who do not have have common decency.

So that makes it okay for us to stoop to their level?

That makes it okay for us to whine about how they're not following the Geneva convention with our POW's and yet Rumsfeld prances around saying that the Geneva convention doesn't apply to us? Did you hear the gobbeldygook he spewed about it?

<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/toocute3.gif">

[Captain Rooster]

G night--this place is full of ignorant assholes and high school kids.

It was real...once.

This message was edited by Captain Rooster on 5-7-04 @ 9:24 PM

[keithy_19]

it doesn't give us a right to stoop down to their level.

But why are we blaming the whole military when it was one group? Don't you guys realize that we still have soldiers over there who are risking their lives for YOU. And you make it like they are all horrible people.

http://www.silentpix.com/modules/Coppermine/albums/userpics/dreamcometruesig.jpg

[Tazz]

If Bill Clinton were president NONE of this would have happened


You're right. After 9/11, he would have lobbed a few cruise missiles into some random Middle East country. Subsequently, we would have been attacked a few more times because they saw we didn't fight back.

<img src=http://tazz1376.homestead.com/files/homersig.gif>

[monsterone]

I'm saying fuck em. Pack the truck! (dont forget the oil) & bring EVERYONE home. Leave Iraq be.




so what, you can be the first one to complain that we left it a mess?




So that makes it okay for us to stoop to their level?


did you look at rooster's post?


YOU try and lead 135,000 soldiers without incident. I have led 130 and they are tough son's of bitches.


funny thing. it's only americans who seem to care. this is pretty tame in places where they deal with torture on a daily basis.


<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="black" size="1"> don't you think it's funny that if i grab a woman's ass and she punches me, she's fighting for her rights, but if a faggot grabs my ass and i punch his lights out, i'm a homophobe? </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

[Mike Teacher]

wait, how was Iwo Jima a military blunder?


I believe history looks at it as The Example of our underestimation of how tenacious the japanese were, for this piece of volcanic rock. The Japanese all but knew they would die there and 'they meant to make the conquest of Iwo so Costly... that the Americans would recoil from the thought of invading their homeland' -William Manchester

that quote is from a book ive read a dozen times Richard Rhodes' 'The Making of The Atomic Bomb'. It won the Pulitzer Prize, perhaps in part for portraying battle that makes the atrocities being debated here fade by comparison. I do not mean to mitigate what is happening now, the aim here is to perhaps give some prespective, not from the Cheap Seats that you and I sit.

Manchester, the author, was there that day, and describes what our Marines walked into:

The invaders were taking heavy mortar and artillery fire. Steel sleeted down... By dusk 2,420 of the 30,000 men on the beachhead were dead or wounded. It resembled Dores' illustrations of the Inferno. Essential cargo - ammo, rations water - was piled up in sprawling chaos. And gore, flesh, and bones were lying all about. The deaths on Iwo were extraordinarily violent. There seemed to be no clean wounds; just fragments of corpses. Often the only way to distinguish between Japanese and Marine dead was by the legs. You tripped over strings of viscera fifteen feet long, over bodies which had been cut in half at the waist. Legs and arms, and heads bearing only necks, lay fifty feet from the nearest torsos. As night fell the beach reaked with the stench of burning flesh.

----

Back to Rhodes: In the end, late in March, victory had cost 6,821 Marines Killed and 21,865 wounded of some 60,000, a casualty ratio of 2 to 1, the highest in Marine Corps history.

Of Japanese defenders, 20,000 died on Iwo Jima; only 1,083 allowed themselves to be captured.

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[Doomstone]

http://coldfury.com/reason/comments.php?id=P1856_0_1_0


[/center]
A deep rot has infected our country. In part, it grows out of the very old idea of "American exceptionalism" -- the idea that America is set above all other nations, and that we therefore have special entitlements. In other words: the rules that apply to others do not apply to us.

Our President obviously subscribes to this view completely. Indeed, it is the very basis of his preemptive foreign policy. We are the strongest nation in the world militarily -- and we therefore get to choose which nations are behaving in a manner acceptable to us, and which are not. And if they are not...well, then you get Iraq, even when Iraq constituted no serious threat to our national security.

The truly awful nature of this tragedy is that, once and in terms of its original founding principles, the United States was genuinely exceptional, in its recognition of individual rights and the sacred, central place that individual rights had in its most basic political structures. But those principles began eroding well over a century ago. And now, we are seeing the concentration of power in the New Fascist structure of society: the combining of semi-"private" businesses with government into one undifferentiated whole, where it is impossible to tell where the private sphere ends and the public sphere begins.

It is crucial to note that, as long as the original founding principles of this country dominated, we did not engage in foreign wars and occupations. But then, as those principles slowly began to crumble, we embarked upon an unending series of wars and occupations, which have continued with only brief interruptions since they began at the very end of the nineteenth century.

The America of today bears very little resemblance to the America that existed at its founding, or that continued for about a century after that. I am not referring to the obvious, superficial changes, in population growth, or in technological advances and the like. The deepest changes that have occurred reveal an American psychology that I think would have horrified the founders, and that would have been deeply alien to their own world outlook. This new psychology would have horrified the founders in its love of power for power's sake, in the reverence granted to military strength, and in the adulation of our ability to impose our "vision" on other countries and, in time, on the entire world, by means of brute military force.

This kind of role for the United States was hardly what our founders had in mind. And it leads to behavior -- both on the individual and the national level -- that is deeply repellent and horrifying. It should be noted that these behaviors are perfect mirror images of each other: what is sanctioned on the individual level becomes the foundation for national policy. The fact that certain kinds of behavior appear not to be repellent and horrifying to so many -- to all those people who make excuses for or attempt to minimize the Iraq story in a manner which ought to be deeply embarrassing to any genuinely civilized person -- is one of the most disturbing and revealing aspects of this phenomenon.




<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds_sig.jpg">
Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>

[Mike Teacher]

From the Book again, I now understand why my USMC father was so anti-war:

The subject was the Bomb specifically, but I believe there is an analouge to any atrocity in war. Because for many of these guys, its all an atrocity, because they are the ones fighting it. I dont know; I never served. So I read, and try to understand, which is a prescription for disaster.

So: How to feel? I have no idea, but I think about this guy:

The American writer Paull Fussell emphasizes "the importance of experience, sheer vulgar experience, in influencing one's views about the first use of the bomb. That of having to come to grips, face to face, with an enemy who designs your death:

I was a 21 year old second Lt. leading a rifle platoon. Althoygh officially in one piece, in the Germen war I had been wounded in the leg and back severly enough to be adjudged 40 percent disabled after the war. But my condition was held to be satisfactory for whatever lay ahead. When the bombs dropped and news began to circulate that the invasion of Japan would not, after all, take place, that we would not be obliged to run up the beaches near Tokyo assault firing while being mortared and shelled, for all the fake manliness of our facades we cried with relief and joy. We were going to live. We were going to grow up to adulthood after all.

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[furie]

The Japanese were tenacious, even valiant in their defense, but I don't see the battle of Iwo Jima as a blunder at all.

Hamburger hill. that was a blunder.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/lee_grassy.jpg" height=100 width=300">

[Death Metal Moe]

G night--this place is full of ignorant assholes and high school kids.

It was real...once.


Welcome back, ME!

HAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

<IMG SRC="http://unhallowed.com/sigs/Mustache.jpg">
<A HREF="http://www.unhallowed.com">www.unhallowed.com</A>

98% of peope think Steels was right

[Death Metal Moe]

Hey Toxic, how about you form your own opinion instead of spewing talking points back at us.

I have a challenge for you genius.

Instead of just putting the Bush administration down, let's hear your amazing plan for putting Iraq back in order now. Forget 'I wouldn't have gone" because we're there now. I want to sit back and hear this.

And if you ever diss Rooster again, you will have 2 angry assholes to deal with, you got that?

<IMG SRC="http://unhallowed.com/sigs/Mustache.jpg">
<A HREF="http://www.unhallowed.com">www.unhallowed.com</A>

98% of peope think Steels was right

[reeshy]

YOU try and lead 135,000 soldiers without incident. I have led 130 and they are tough son's of bitches.


Shit, I was a crew chief of a helicopter in the service and I was the worst one...YAAAHAAAA!!!!!!!!

[center]<IMG SRC=http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/guests/mbt2_sig.jpg>
[center]Thanks Monsterone!!

[HBox]

I'm real glad I missed this thread today.

http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/hotsbox.jpg

[Teenweek]

(1) the US losers who were posing in those pics, should be hung by their vocal chords & stoned.




Iraqi's are humans too!



Fuck off. Get pissed off at this. Those pictures from us looked like a hazing night at any college. Where is the outrage for this you piece of human garbage.

http://aztlan.net/cooked3.jpg

http://aztlan.net/hanging.jpg

http://aztlan.net/cooked4.jpg

This message was edited by Teenweek on 5-7-04 @ 10:59 PM

[Doomstone]

Those pictures from us looked like a hazing night at any college.


Where would anyone get such an idiotic idea? Could it be...

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/static/dowbrigade/rush.jpg



This is no different than what happens at the skull and bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You of heard of need to blow some steam off?


I can't believe I'm seeing Americans not only trying to justify torture, but even condoning it. You people are sociopaths.

<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds_sig.jpg">
Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>

[Doomstone]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/



But Rumsfeld warned the committee that the worst was yet to come. He said he had looked at the full array of unedited photographs of the situation at Abu Ghraib for the first time Thursday night and found them "hard to believe."

"There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he said. "... It's going to get a good deal more terrible, I'm afraid."

Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and "acting inappropriately with a dead body." The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.




<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds_sig.jpg">
Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>

[TheMojoPin]

Man, the things I miss just because I need to work...

You kids are incorrigible.

Toxic, just settle down, please. You can badmouth a public figure here all you want, but there are other people here who are going to take those same words personally when they're directed at them. Just please think before you post. It's not worth it to get so worked up over words on your computer screen.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-8-04 @ 1:09 AM

[monsterone]

I can't believe I'm seeing Americans not only trying to justify torture, but even condoning it. You people are sociopaths.



not necissarily. just an understanding of what occurs in war. imagine the mentaility of having to kill, and fear for your life day to day.

rummy is a straight shooter and tells it like it is.

funny thing about the geneva convention: will the people who dragged american's through the streets be brought up on charges. highly unlikely...

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="black" size="1"> don't you think it's funny that if i grab a woman's ass and she punches me, she's fighting for her rights, but if a faggot grabs my ass and i punch his lights out, i'm a homophobe? </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

[ToxicGarden]

Hey all I was saying was Rumsfeld & Bush are liars & the military morons who were responsible for THIS incident should be brought to Justice.
If you disagree , you are simply...WRONG.

Of course mistakes will be made. Do not lie to the American public or try to cover it up.
It's not MY responsibility to rebuild IRAQ. I did not make the choice to send troops in. Bush and Rumsfeld made this mess, let those 2 pig fuckers clean it up.

Rooster, It is YOU who forgot where YOU live & what the flag stands for.
We do not HAVE to agree with our president ..
We can disagree. = )

*hugs*




Did she make you cry
Make you break down
Shatter your illusions of love

[Mike Teacher]

Hey DMM!

Are you back again, or leaving again, or were never back those other times; just checking!

:)

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[Mike Teacher]

but I don't see the battle of Iwo Jima as a blunder at all.


agreed. Blunder is the wrong word, but we considered gassing the island, this is after just bombarding the fuck out of it from the air and just watching the japanese continue to fortify the island. That 2 to 1 casualty ratio, blunder or not, is pretty bad.

so; how are you all doing this fine morning? All fit and fiddle? It Is A fine Day!



<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[Captain Rooster]

Rooster, It is YOU who forgot where YOU live & what the flag stands for.
We do not HAVE to agree with our president ..
We can disagree. = )

*hugs

First, look at the title fo your thread--that is not call for debate, it's an attack.

Do not tell me I do not know what the flag stands for. You have no idea how I've served and no idea what sacrifices the men and women of this country do for you every day.

You love Clinton and Gore and their cronies bacause they would tuck their tails to like dogs in fear and run away at the first sign of trouble. Ever heard of Operation Restore Hope in Somalia? Think about it.


Keep your hug.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

This message was edited by Captain Rooster on 5-8-04 @ 8:58 AM

[TooCute]

rummy is a straight shooter and tells it like it is.


Heh. Which "rummy" are we talking about?

Here's a real "straight shooting" remark he made few days ago:

The decision was made that the Geneva Convention did not apply precisely but that every individual would be treated as though the Geneva Convention did apply.

And of course there's his testimony in front of the Senate Armed Forces committee, here's a straight shooting bit of it:

[quote]MCCAIN:Now, Mr. Secretary, I'd like to know -- I'd like you to give the committee the chain of command from the guards to you, all the way up the chain of command.ÿI'd like to know...

RUMSFELD:ÿI think General Myers brought an indication of it, and we'll show it.ÿ

MCCAIN:ÿThank you. I'd like to know who was in charge of the -- what agencies or private contractors were in charge of interrogations?ÿDid they have authority over the guards?ÿAnd what were their instructions to the guards?

RUMSFELD:ÿFirst, with respect to the...

SMITH:ÿWe did not bring it.

RUMSFELD:ÿOh, my.

SMITH:ÿYes, oh, my is right.

RUMSFELD:ÿIt was all prepared.

SMITH:ÿYes, it was, indeed.

RUMSFELD:ÿDo you want to walk through it?

MCCAIN:ÿAnyway, who was in charge?ÿWhat agency or private contractor was in charge of the interrogations?ÿDid they have authority over the guards?ÿAnd what were the instructions that they gave to the guards?

SMITH:ÿI'll walk through the chain of command and...

MCCAIN:ÿNo.ÿLet's just -- you can submit the chain of command, please.

WARNER:ÿGeneral Smith, do you want to respond?

MCCAIN:ÿNo.ÿSecretary Rumsfeld, in all due respect, you've got to answer this question.ÿAnd it could be satisfied with a phone call. This is a pretty simple, straightforward question:ÿWho was in charge of the interrogations?ÿWhat agencies or private contractors were in charge of the interrogations?ÿDid they have authority over the guards?ÿAnd what were the instructions to the guards?
This goes to the heart of this matter.

RUMSFELD:ÿIt does indeed.ÿAs I understand it, there were two contractor organizations. They supplied interrogators and linguists.ÿAnd I was advised by General Smith that there were maybe a total of 40. MCCAIN:ÿNow, were they in charge of the interrogations?

SMITH:ÿThirty-seven interrogators, and...

WARNER:ÿThe witnesses voice are not being recorded.ÿYou'll have to speak into your microphone.
Would you repeat the conversation in response to the senator's question?

SMITH:ÿYes, sir.ÿThere were 37 interrogators that were...

MCCAIN:ÿI'm asking who was in charge of the interrogations.

SMITH:ÿThey were not in charge.ÿThey were interrogators.

MCCAIN:ÿMy question is who was in charge of the interrogations?

SMITH:ÿThe brigade commander for the military intelligence brigade.

MCCAIN:ÿAnd were they -- did he also have authority over the guards?ÿ

MITH:ÿSir, he was -- he had tactical control over the guards, so he was...

MCCAIN:ÿMr. Secretary, you can't answer these questions?

RUMSFELD:ÿI can.ÿI'd be -- I thought the purpose of the question was to make sure we got an accurate presentation, and we have the expert here who was in the chain of command.
MCCAIN:ÿI think these are fundamental questions to this issue.ÿ

RUMSFELD:ÿFine.

MCCAIN:ÿWere the instructions to the guards...

RUMSFELD:ÿThere's two sets of responsibilities, as your question suggests.ÿOne set is the people who have the responsibility for managing the detention process; they are not interrogators.ÿThe military intelligence people, as General Smith has indicated, were the people who were in charge of the interrogation part of the process. And the responsibility, as I have reviewed the matter, shifted over a period of time and the general is capable of telling you when that responsibility shifted.ÿ

MCCAIN:ÿWhat were the instructions to the guards?ÿ

RUMSFELD:ÿThat is what the investigation that I have indicated has been undertaken...

MCCAIN:ÿMr.

[blakjeezis]

Ordinarily I wouldn't show up in a thread like this for a number of reasons. But since Rooster is all up in it, and he's an old school pal from the glory days of the board and what he leaves in the toilet every morning has done more for this country than any and all of your grandstanding, I gotta chime in.

Larry, or whatever your name is, what these guards did was wrong, obviously, and they should be punished to the fullest extent possible. Case closed. You, the rest of the whiners, the Arab world, and anyone else trying to make political hay out of this take your moral outrage and stick straight up your enlarged asshole. Where were you crying and screaming about the Iraqi soccer team being dragged shirtless across gravel and then thrown into septic pits, by Saddam? You have no credibility.


so fucking what if guys are showing women their genitals? WHAT LEADER in their right mind would have chicks doing that kind of patrol? Why not remove the female is she is unable to deal with it


And if it's so horrifying for a Moslem male to be naked, why are these fucks sexually attacking our female troops? Ugh, you all make me sick. Of course, if our soldiers were exposing themselves to female prisoners it would be cause for Rumsfeld and Bush's heads to be serve on silver platters. You're an idiot.

That quote is spoken like a true Clinton feminist. 'I'll back women and their rights as long as it agrees with my political agenda.' Shit, even NOW sold out to that misogynistic frat boy.

If you wanna make a political statement that I disagree with, rock on man. Debate makes our country better. Tryng to twist every news story into an OUTRAGEOUS, DISGUSTING reason to oust the administration only weakens your argument. If you stomp too hard on thin ice, you're gonna fall through.


<IMG SRC =http://www.blakjeezis.homestead.com/files/bloodjeez.gif>
If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
<marquee><font color=red>INRI</font> White people are so scared of blakjeezis<font color=red> INRI</font></marquee>
I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-8-04 @ 11:29 AM

[zoom2457]

I feel like a goddamn mental patient.

One minute I'm for the war, the next I'm against it. I don't want soldiers dying, but the Iraqi people deserve better.

I'm upset that the President didn't fight in Vietnam, but I would not have signed up for that war either.

I'm against the President talking about Jesus, but I'm for religious freedom.

The nearest plan for a resolution I can think of is to give them back their country, keep control of the oil fields and just give them the money for it. And don't look at the fact that the poor people in Iraq never see a cent. Can you see all the problems this solution would cause? But, it's more of a plan than I have ever heard coming from the White House.



"Excuse me, excuse me I believe you have my stapler"

[Captain Rooster]

I feel like a goddamn mental patient.

One minute I'm for the war, the next I'm against it. I don't want soldiers dying, but the Iraqi people deserve better.

Of course the Iraqi people deserve better. Those men in the pics were brutalized and heads do need to roll, but the entire chain of command, up to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the Sec Def should not be fired because some idiot from Virginia decided to give some guys junk the "thumbs-up."


None of our men and women want to be killed either! We are at war. The fact is, we are in and we cannot allow out chain of command to implode because a liberal television show decided to blow the roof off of an investigation that has been ongoing since January.

As far as our women at war are concerned: Americans are so damn lukewarm on the issue. One minute, a Hillary will be all for women's rights and equality and then in the next minute be calling for our women to be taken out of the Middle East. WHAT!?

Are we supposed to take every female soldier out of the M.E. because some Muslim man does not think should be there? Should we give up on generations of women fighting for equality as a result of some cultural expectation in that country? No.

The fact is was is ugly--damn fucking ugly.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

[TooCute]

Where were you crying and screaming about the Iraqi soccer team being dragged shirtless across gravel and then thrown into septic pits, by Saddam? You have no credibility.

What is this statement even supposed to mean? There are outrageous human rights violations going on all over the world. People ARE outraged by them. But we don't live in Iraq. We live in America. When America commits such atrocities - which apparently aren't just limited to this one incident, as admitted to by Rumsfeld himself - we have, I don't know, a bit more of a reason to be outraged by it, and we have a bit more power to do something about it?

And the whole "I've don't more for the country than you have so stop whining" argument is really stupid. Are only people who've enlisted in the military allowed to have opinions about this country now?

<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/toocute3.gif">

[TooCute]

Those men in the pics were brutalized and heads do need to roll, but the entire chain of command, up to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the Sec Def should not be fired because some idiot from Virginia decided to give some guys junk the "thumbs-up."

The chain of command... yeah I guess not. I mean how could we do that when the Secretary of Defense can't even figure out what that chain of command is?

<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/toocute3.gif">

[Mike Teacher]

The fact is was is ugly--damn fucking ugly.


Perhaps, just perhaps, a point we can all agree on.

My problem is I'm with Zoom; my brain is like a see-saw on Meth; one second I want to give the Military powers-that-be the job of policing their own; and the next I want Rumsfeld's resignation. Or maybe both.

Of course Bush and Rumsfeld are liars. Both parties sold out to Big Money long ago; and I loathe the entire political process; so I agree with Toxic.

Def Dave is dead on also; we can debate this exactly because we enjoy freedoms that come at a cost, and those include atrocities.

And I read Capt. Roosters post; and it's dead on about the 130,000. And the frustration is So understandable. My military service is nada; all I can do is brag about my dad ad nauseum like the kid in Stand By Me [Nice reference, eh?].

I can see him next to me as I watch these news broadcasts, shaking his head, just like all the other times, saying 'If they only Understood, had the mearest inkling of what the Raw Experience of War was/is like, the attitudes on Every side would be quite a bit different.

This fucking sucks. Today, 90 minutes ago, I was over my Mom;s and she asked to put them up; there they were two nice boxes, and I get the gloves, and study it, coz I forget even though I do it each month; and I raise an 8 foot American Flag and a 6 foot USMC Flag, right under. People stopped to watch and stuff.

I'm that stupid guy who gets choked up when he sees the stars and bars. Those babies are on the Moon! Those babies have brought tears of joy to so many who have seen them, and the USMC Flag? Holy smokes I cant believe I'm even allowed to hoist one. I apologize to those who shout me a Semper Fi, telling them my Father is the Marine.

Wow this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

---

The only thing that really kills me is watching people here just losing it on each other. Only because it makes us look like all the political and media fucks on tv.


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This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 5-8-04 @ 12:55 PM

[zoom2457]

but the entire chain of command, up to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the Sec Def should not be fired because some idiot from Virginia decided to give some guys junk the "thumbs-up."


This is true. But how could these things be happening and nobody higher up knew about it. I don't want to see some poor kid be the scapegoat while other people involved just skate.

Whoever was involved should be punished. Period. End of Sentence. Whether it be some private somewhere or even the Secretary of Defense.

And finally, Lt. Rooster. Thank you (and everybody in the military) for serving in the military. Thank you for standing up and fighting for all the freedoms that I have or hope to have. I mean this sincerely. I really appreciate it.



"Excuse me, excuse me I believe you have my stapler"


I'm that stupid guy who gets choked up when he sees the stars and bars.


You are not alone in that.

This message was edited by zoom2457 on 5-8-04 @ 1:01 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Mike got it right.

As usual.

Good to see you Rooster!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Captain Rooster]

First, Too Cute, do you realize how complex the chain of command is when you want to trace it from a Private First Class up to the Sec Def--especially when there are federal troops, CIA agents, contractors, National Guardsmen and Reserves integrated. It's not just: Jnaie tells Joey and then Joey tells Captain Mike and then he gets on the phone to Saudi and conferences in Pete who call Rumsfeld. We are talking about a chain with hundreds of leaders involved. The fact that he did not have the document to trace the chain is insane but he would have to be super human to just come up with the chain of command from him to England (in the photos) off the top of his head.

Mike, Zoom, thanks for the intelligent and sincere comments. I get choked-up every time I see the flag raised too. I also get sick when I think of American soldiers desecrating the uniform and the lives of the men and women who served and serve honorably under the Stars and Stripes.

Here's an anecdote: I was a platoon leader in '99. One of my boys beath the ever-livin' crap out of another guy at a bar because the guy call him a nigger. He acted out of anger and without regard for the chain, my leadership or any other tenet of human respect. He just blew his top and put the guy into a coma. Should I have been fired? Should my record as a proven leader be marred because this guy acted under his own freewill? Of course I was disgusted and punished him to the utmost; was it somehow my fault? Was it my Captain's fault that a soldier beat a civilian? Was it the Sec Def's fault that my guy acted like a total maniac?

I say no.

BY THE WAY, PLEASE DISREGARD MY AWFUL GRAMMAR--MY POSTS ARE BURSTS OF THOUGHT WITHOUT REVISION.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

[Captain Rooster]

Mike got it right.

As usual.

Good to see you Rooster!

.."

You too, bro.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

[keithy_19]

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

http://www.silentpix.com/modules/Coppermine/albums/userpics/dreamcometruesig.jpg

[HBox]

You make a good point Rooster, but there is a difference. While your example was a one-time incident with one person, this seems to have been a more widespread problem over a longer period of time. I don't know how high this goes up, but I'm sure it has to go up past the few guardsmen in the pictures.

And the fact that President Bush had to see this for the first time on 60 Minutes, that Rumsfeld even as of yesterday hadn't read the Taguba report, that this has been investigated since January and nothing much has happened yet all are not encouraging.

And one more thing. Stop comparing this to the descration in Fallujah or 9/11. We are the United States of America. We don't compare ourselves to terrorists. We don't say that because our atrocities are not as bad as theirs that it's OK. It's not OK. We are America because we hold ourselves to higher standards. We don't explain away these incidents, we DEAL with them.

http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/hotsbox.jpg

[TooCute]

First, Too Cute, do you realize how complex the chain of command is when you want to trace it from a Private First Class up to the Sec Def--especially when there are federal troops, CIA agents, contractors, National Guardsmen and Reserves integrated.

Yes. It was more of an observation pointing out how unbelievable it is that the Secretary of Defense was at a hearing where he obviuosly should have expected the question "who was in charge" and he was unable and unwilling to answer it.

Here's an anecdote: I was a platoon leader in '99. One of my boys beath the ever-livin' crap out of another guy at a bar because the guy call him a nigger. He acted out of anger and without regard for the chain, my leadership or any other tenet of human respect. He just blew his top and put the guy into a coma. Should I have been fired? Should my record as a proven leader be marred because this guy acted under his own freewill? Of course I was disgusted and punished him to the utmost; was it somehow my fault? Was it my Captain's fault that a soldier beat a civilian? Was it the Sec Def's fault that my guy acted like a total maniac?

I say no.

No, it wasn't. It would have been if you had created an environment where it seemed to be acceptable.


The difference between your example and this example is that in this instance the guy who is supposedly in charge - Rumsfeld - has on more than one occasion said that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply. He's said that it's out of date. What about Guantanamo Bay? Where prisoners are being held in a manner violating the Geneva Convention? (oh right, I forgot, it doesn't apply to the US). President Bush signed an military order that would theoretically allow the prisoners to be unappealably sentenced to death based on statements made without a lawyer present.

Is it any wonder that the "regular" soldiers think it's okay to torture their Iraqi prisoners in violation of not only the Geneva Convention but basic human rights when their leaders are setting such an example?

<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/toocute3.gif">

[Dudeman]

We can not treat them inhumanely just because they did it to other Iraqis or to our contractors in Iraq. In fact, our (latest) reason for being there is becuase they did such inhumane things.

Now that these bad things have occured, apologizes must be made- and they were- and, some person or people must be held responsible, otherwise we are no better than them.

so who is resonsible:
- the people who did it
- the people who may have said to "soften" the prisioners up
- the people who were directly in charge of the people who did it
- the people who set the tone for military (and this is where the higher ups come into play)
-the people who knew about it in january and did nothing about it (once again, where higher ups may come into play)




-I'll log off now, and listen to your
response.-

[Leadbottom]

It's funny seeing Too Cute defending Muslims. If they had their way she would be wearing a veil and if she was lucky enough to be married she could be smacked around and whipped by her husband.
Islam is an evil religion. They are the new Nazis.
Rooster is a hero. The rest of you punk kids should stop listening to your Marxist teachers and wake the fuck up. Muslims want you dead, plain and simple. Fuck tolerance, all these savages know is violence. I say we torture more of these devils.

FUJI!

[El Mudo]

Rumsfeld is a pig liar


I guess thats better than being a hog liar..



Back to Rhodes: In the end, late in March, victory had cost 6,821 Marines Killed and 21,865 wounded of some 60,000, a casualty ratio of 2 to 1, the highest in Marine Corps history.

Of Japanese defenders, 20,000 died on Iwo Jima; only 1,083 allowed themselves to be captured.



I would say Iwo was worth the cost because of all the Pilots and bomber crews of crippled aircraft that we were able to save there wih the airfield...


I would vote one of the most serious military blunders as one that happened 50 years ago today--Dien Bien Phu.


I guess you could really say the blunder with DBP was that the place was entirely undefensible...at the bottom of a freakin soupbowl ringed by hills...once the Viet Minh got on a couple of those hills, the battle was over, and then their relief column got ambushed and destroyed...


Napoleans March into Russia. Someone help me here; some Army marched into Russia and basically it was another Bataan Death March, this time from cold.


Actually, that was more brilliance by the Russians than anything, they burned everything in front of them and sucked in the French...they couldn't live off the land. Plus, Napoleon's army was too big(around 5-600,000), and it was almost impossible to care for them all efficiently with the logistics of the day. And the heat did more damage to Napoleon's army than the cold did..


Gallipoli. A horrific, horrific mistake. To order the charges on those trenchs. Suicide


The British had to find some way to help the Russians with all their problems, Gallipoli would have opened up the straits to the Black Sea and kept Russia in the war, and opened the back door to Germany....The problem was they picked the wrong guy to command...



I always thought Antietam was the bigger Civil War blunder. McClellan had the actual plans for what Lee was going to do (which were found in tree in Frederick) and he sat and did nothing for several days. If Mclellan used the plans to his advantage and smashed Lee's army, the possibly could have ended in as little as a few weeks and this was in 1862. The war lasted until 1865.


Two soldiers from the 27th Indiana found Lee's Orders wrapped around 3 Cigars...The problem was, McClellan kept adhering to what Lee was going to do on that paper even as late as September 16, a day before the battle. He sat there all day on the 16th watching Lee across the Antietam(Lee was waiting for Jackson to come up from Harper's Ferry, and then get rolling back to VA because the Campaign was a disaster). And I could fill up 2 or 3 posts talking about the blunders in that battle alone(failure to press the attack on the left, failure to press in the center, 2 Federal Corps that never got into the battle, failure of Burnside to co-ordinate his attacks with those on the left)

I also read someone that mentioned Gettysburg, I don't know if they meant the Failure of Ewell to press the attack after the first day or the failure of Meade to follow up the battle. Firstly, there was no way Ewell could have pressed the attack on the first day and it bugs me when someone blames him for the Army of Northern Virginia's loss. His two divisions, Early and Rodes, were shot up all the hell and had been marching and fighting for almost 6-8 hours. His other division, Ed Johnson's, was still strung out on the road from Chambersburg

About Meade not pressing the attack after the battle, people forget how badly the army of the potomac was shot up, two of their corps were wrecked, (three if you count how bac the 11th corps was mangled) and many of their best officers were dead or out of action(Hancock, Reynolds, Sam Zook, Ed Cross, Strong Vincent etc.)

*whew*

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<marquee> M-A-R-Y-L-A-N-D MARYLAND...WILL WINNNNNN!! </marquee>

[TooCute]

It's funny seeing Too Cute defending Muslims.

Huh? I did what?

I say we torture more of these devils.

hee hee you're funny.

<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/toocute3.gif">

[Mike Teacher]

I would say Iwo was worth the cost because of all the Pilots and bomber crews of crippled aircraft that we were able to save there wih the airfield...


Oh yes I would agree; these blobs of volcanic ash, as i put it, made the chain to Tinian.

OK Movie Triv and War buff fans here one for you. Tinian is mentioned in one of the most famous, biggest movies of all time. In fact it's part of a story told. Hmm is that enough? For this crowd. Definately.

And it aint no war movie.

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[mikeyboy]

OK Movie Triv and War buff fans here one for you. Tinian is mentioned in one of the most famous, biggest movies of all time. In fact it's part of a story told. Hmm is that enough? For this crowd. Definately.


Quint: Japanese submarine slammed two torpedoes into our side, Chief. We was comin' back from the island of Tinian t'Leyte, we'd just delivered the bomb. The Hiroshima bomb. Eleven hundred men went into the water. Vessel went down in twelve minutes. Didn't see the first shark for about a half hour. Tiger. Thirteen footer. You know how you know that in the water, Chief? You can tell by lookin' from the dorsal to the tail. What we didn't know, was that our bomb mission was so secret, no distress signal had been sent. They didn't even list us overdue for a week. Very first light, Chief, sharks come cruisin', so we formed ourselves into tight groups. It was sorta like you see in the calendars, you know the squares in the old calendars like the Battle o' Waterloo and the idea was the shark come to the nearest man, that man he starts poundin' and hollerin' and sometimes that shark he go away... but sometimes he wouldn't go away. Sometimes that shark looks right at ya. Right into your eyes. And the thing about a shark is he's got lifeless eyes. Black eyes. Like a doll's eyes. When he comes at ya, he doesn't even seem to be livin'... 'til he bites ya, and those black eyes roll over white and then... ah then you hear that terrible high-pitched screamin'. The ocean turns red, and despite all your poundin' and your hollerin' those sharks come in and... they rip you to pieces. You know by the end of that first dawn, lost a hundred men. I don't know how many sharks, maybe a thousand. I do know how many men, they averaged six an hour. Thursday mornin', Chief, I bumped into a friend of mine, Herbie Robinson from Cleveland. Baseball player. Boson's mate. I thought he was asleep, Reached over to wake him up. He bobbed up, down in the water, he was like a kinda top. Upended. Well, he'd been bitten in half below the waist. Noon the fifth day a Lockheed Ventura swung in low and he spotted us, a young pilot, lot younger than Mr. Hooper here, anyway he spotted us and a few hours later a big ol' fat PBY come down and start to pick us up. You know that was the time I was most frightened? Waitin' for my turn. I'll never put on a lifejacket again. So, eleven hundred men went into the water. Three hundred and sixteen men come out, the sharks took the rest, June the twenty-ninth, nineteen-forty five. Anyway, we delivered the bomb.

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[TooCute]

Damn Mikey, you googled faster than me :)

<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/toocute3.gif">

[Mike Teacher]

Holy Shite the Entire Speech! Nice!

I read a book on the USS Indianapolis that was put out a year or two back; said it had new data or something that exhonerated the Captain of the ship, who eventually committed suicide.

There was a bad TV-movie, and I hear of a film treatment; but on reading this book you almost wonder if there would be such a thing as a movie that would be just too fucking intense. I mean thse guys were, besides being eaten alive, almost all of them; blinded from sun, in and out of conciousness and hallucinogenic states brought on by dehydration and exhaustion. I mean the worst; guys just dying, and killing themselves, and then horrifically, killing each other. Ugh.

Can we pave the Oceans?

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[sr71blackbird]

And the thing about a shark is he's got lifeless eyes. Black eyes. Like a doll's eyes.


http://www.declaration.tv/DOLL.eyes.jpg

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[ChickenHawk]

This is the greatest military blunder EVER.
This is the greatest message board blunder EVER.


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HORDE KING FOREVER!!! ORACLE NEVER!!!
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[sr71blackbird]

I have been reading up on this and keep hearing that there are more images and even video that will come out regarding the abuse, apparently worse is to come. Bear in mind that it is likely that the intention of some of our military actions to be brutal to the brutes, to get them to talk, to tell us what they know because they are involved in hurting our guys who are there to help liberate the regual Iraqi people. These arent regular Iraqi's in these images. These are guys they caught who were trying to kill or harm our forces. I am not trying to justify violating the Geneva Convention rules, or the abuse and torture of anyone, or Ms. England's role in this. Should it have happened? I would say No, it shouldnt have happened, but there is more here than meets the eye. In a rational world, such abuse should never be tolerated, but this is not a rational world. I was wondering initally if it might have been leaked to let the militant guys know whats in store for them if they dont stop attacking us. I also thought it might have been part of a way to discredit us in the eyes of the world to help the anti American cause to isolate us in this war, after all, it is the enemys goal to weaken its enemy by any means necessary. Clearly I think that it is a horrible thing to be taking place, but like Rooster says, war aint pretty. We must ask ourselves if we want to assist the enemy by weakening ourselves. What is the ultimate goal of our enemy? To destroy us. How will they destroy us? By starvation. We will lose our support structure and if we bale out of Iraq now, it will cause that part of the world to tumble into chaos if we dont leave it in a state that will assure its future as a peaceful area. It is a huge undertaking because of su much in the way of Islamic extremists and also for the differing philisophical beliefs of much of Europe whom we depend upon to help us in this situation. Youll wisely wonder if by allowing this to happen if we havent shot ourselves in the foot, and if it turns out that the chain of command knew of this abuse and allowed it, then you might have a point that the management of the effort is not operating under the best judgement and should be removed at its appropriate time. Please keep in mind what our enemys goal is when you see these images or hear these accusations. At the same time, I hope that they can find a humane way to get these prisoners to talk and the attackers to stop attacking us.

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[HBox]

A couple of things to keep in mind before trying the argument that we needed information out of these prisoners. First, that 60% of the people that were held at Abu Ghraib were not being charged with anything. But more importantly, the events in question happened in the fall of 2003, before the current uprisings, before the desecration at Fallujah. Not to suggest things were all shits and giggles back then, however. And third, during the invasion we were more than clear to Iraq that they had better not do anything to any of our soldiers they captured. People were suggesting that even showing our soldiers scared on camera was violating the Geneva convention. President Bush said that we would treat anyone who harmed our captured soldiers as war criminals. His point then is correct now: there is no excuse for this.

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[Yerdaddy]

Please keep in mind what our enemys goal is when you see these images or hear these accusations.

To keep us so busy torturing them that we'd forget to eat and starve to death?

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[TheMojoPin]

Actually, that was more brilliance by the Russians than anything, they burned everything in front of them and sucked in the French...they couldn't live off the land. Plus, Napoleon's army was too big(around 5-600,000), and it was almost impossible to care for them all efficiently with the logistics of the day. And the heat did more damage to Napoleon's army than the cold did..

This is what essentially happened to the Nazis in WW2, right? Either that or they just couldn't keep up a supply chain...or both...

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[Mike Teacher]

This is what essentially happened to the Nazis in WW2, right? Either that or they just couldn't keep up a supply chain...or both...


I think so. A historian said, can't remember who, but that as must as we ought-fought the germans and japanese, we most certainly out-produced them.

People can bitch and moan about how bad this century of production has caused so much pollution, because it has; but when we needed it, and it's an Amazing thing to look back on, how people sacrificed, that we could crank out the bombs and bullets and ships and bombers when we needed them.

Perhaps Brokaw was right.

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[TheMojoPin]

"Perhaps?"

I'd say that was a sure thing all the way.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

People can bitch and moan about how bad this century of production has caused so much pollution, because it has; but when we needed it, and it's an Amazing thing to look back on, how people sacrificed, that we could crank out the bombs and bullets and ships and bombers when we needed them.

Perhaps Brokaw was right.

Bearing in mind they weren't getting the shit bombed out of them while they worked.

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Fuck it from behind.

[blakjeezis]

What is this statement even supposed to mean?


What that statement means, and I'll try and be as clear as possible for you, is that I have trouble believing people whose outrage just happens to line up with their political leanings. Anti-Bush, liberal, political opportunists are calling for the removal of Bush and Rumsfeld because of the mistreatment of Iraqi POWs.

That would be all well and good if these same people hadn't been protesting the removal of Saddam. They called for the continuing charade of inspection and embargo against Iraq. Hell they even marched in the streets for it, still are. Leave Saddam in power and allow him to repress, intimidate, torture and murder anyone he chooses. They turned a blind eye to all that because to do the right thing would have meant supporting Bush.

It's inconsistent. It's disgusting. It's a fucking joke. I give their moral outrage no creedence whatsoever. It is worth precisely nothing.

I hope that's clear enough. If not, let me know and I'll explain further.

The other part about, the 'I was in the Army I count more', was not an argument against Toxic's point. I have a tremendous amount of admiration for Rooster, not just for what he's done in uniform, but outside of the Armed Forces as well, the little I know anyway. I didn't think that Toxic was giving him the respect he is due, and I have a problem with that.

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[Yerdaddy]

What about us liberals who opposed the war because the administration showed no understanding of what would come after the war, what the plan for the post-conflict period would be, and that the people who were going to be carrying it out were making claims that were contrary to the intelligence? And that they were the same people who were aiding Saddam Hussein before, during and after the mass graves were being filled during the Anfal Campaign against the Kurds and who chose to sit and watch massacres after the Shiite rebellions after the Gulf War?

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Fuck it from behind.

[TheMojoPin]

They called for the continuing charade of inspection and embargo against Iraq.

Which apparently worked.

Well, if you go with the "official" reason we started this war in the first place.

And I'm still waiting for the actual "liberal" that's ACTUALLY saying, "y'know, Saddam wasn't really all that bad. He wasn't evil at all!" And please don't point to people protesting WHO was doing the removal and the way it was being done...because that's what ACTUALLY happened.

And I'm still waiting for Saddam's monstrous treatment of the Iraqi people to be the reason Bush sent our troops off to war. I mean, is it REALLY a stretch that I simply wanted him to explain that as briefly and simply as possible while we were gearing up for this 15 months ago? Honestly. Come on now. And this has nothing to do with the troops, or supposedly how much better off the Iraqi people are now, or 9/11...I just wanted Bush to say "we are going to war with Saddam Hussein because he is evil and a monster and his people need to be free and here's how we're gonna do it and here's what we're gonna do afterwards" and that's IT. He could have done it in a single press conference. Imagine the infinite ways things would be different now, at least in terms of public and international support. Odds are America would be getting the help it so desperately needs now, and more importantly, our TROOPS would be getting the help they need right now, and even MORE importantly, the "liberated" Iraqi people would be getting the help THEY need.

Our troops did their job, and they did it fantastically well! They fought and won! Now people are expecting them to occupy, police AND rebuild...which is absurd! It's unfair to them AND the people they're supposed to be protecting and helping!

To me, it comes to honesty. I wanted honesty as to WHY we were doing this...HOW we were doing this...and that was to be done afterwards. I never got that. NONE of us did. We got shit. The troops are getting shit. The Iraqis are getting shit. The only people doing just FINE over there are the terrorists! How the FUCK did that happen?!?

And not even blaming anyone with that last question...I'm honestly asking.

And if someone can really and truly answer it, then they are smarter than I'll ever be, even if I lived to be a million years old.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-9-04 @ 1:34 AM

[El Mudo]

This is what essentially happened to the Nazis in WW2, right? Either that or they just couldn't keep up a supply chain...or both...



Yeah pretty much...

Everyone thought(and still thinks) the "blitzkreig" was some great new invention of warfare, but it was the only way the Germans could have fought in WW2...they had to attack and win as quickly as possible before the supply situation got bad...The reason the blitzkrieg attacks were so successful was that no one really had an answer to the tank in '40 and '41(hell, the damn Polish were trying to charge tanks with cavalry, some genius told them the german tanks weren't real and were made out of cardboard, so there were many scenes of Polish POWs being marched to the rear rapping on the German tanks incredulously to see if they were really real)

The lack of an answer for the tank is also a reason the French shouldn't be ripped as bad as they are for their performance in WW2(at least the non Vichy French). They built the Maginot Line for a war that didnt exist any more, and without hindsight there was no possible way they could have known that...

Besides, when the Krauts cut the country in two and cut them off from the British and the Channel(something they tried over and over and over to do in the Great War) the "party was over" as Don Meredith would say...

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[TheMojoPin]

Hey, the Maginot Line worked GREAT...for the Germans who used it for cover as they retreated back towards the east.

And as bad as the supply situation was for the Germans, imagine how it was for the Japanese...

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[blakjeezis]

Which apparently worked.


Stopped him from nuking or gassing the rest of the world? Yes, for the time being. It could have lasted forever, it could have lasted a week. We'll never know. Kept him from torturing the population of his own country? Absolutely not!


What about us liberals who opposed the war because the administration showed no understanding of what would come after the war, what the plan for the post-conflict period would be, and that the people who were going to be carrying it out were making claims that were contrary to the intelligence? And that they were the same people who were aiding Saddam Hussein before, during and after the mass graves were being filled during the Anfal Campaign against the Kurds and who chose to sit and watch massacres after the Shiite rebellions after the Gulf War?

And I'm still waiting for Saddam's monstrous treatment of the Iraqi people to be the reason Bush sent our troops off to war. I mean, is it REALLY a stretch that I simply wanted him to explain that as briefly and simply as possible while we were gearing up for this 15 months ago? Honestly. Come on now. And this has nothing to do with the troops, or supposedly how much better off the Iraqi people are now, or 9/11...I just wanted Bush to say "we are going to war with Saddam Hussein because he is evil and a monster and his people need to be free and here's how we're gonna do it and here's what we're gonna do afterwards" and that's IT. He could have done it in a single press conference. Imagine the infinite ways things would be different now, at least in terms of public and international support. Odds are America would be getting the help it so desperately needs now, and more importantly, our TROOPS would be getting the help they need right now, and even MORE importantly, the "liberated" Iraqi people would be getting the help THEY need.

Our troops did their job, and they did it fantastically well! They fought and won! Now people are expecting them to occupy, police AND rebuild...which is absurd! It's unfair to them AND the people they're supposed to be protecting and helping!

To me, it comes to honesty. I wanted honesty as to WHY we were doing this...HOW we were doing this...and that was to be done afterwards. I never got that. NONE of us did. We got shit. The troops are getting shit. The Iraqis are getting shit. The only people doing just FINE over there are the terrorists! How the FUCK did that happen?!?

And not even blaming anyone with that last question...I'm honestly asking.


Here's the difference. Everything you're saying, is intelligent, worth discussing in an open forum and when opposing ideas are presented and weighed objectively the solution is for the betterment of the country as a whole. It is, or are least should be the basis for our Democracy.

Hysterical chest-beating, and Chicken Little tactics employed by those like Toxic, and it happens on both sides of the aisle don't get me wrong (see also: Monica Lewinsky), do nothing. That's all I'm saying.

There are some serious, SERIOUS, problems with this administration, not just with the handling of this war and its aftermath. I will be the first to admit it. Let's talk about them instead of clouding the issues with bullshit.


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This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-9-04 @ 4:55 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Man, you're a good and wise Messiah.

...

Or a Jedi.

Which one is more holy and wise?

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-9-04 @ 12:19 PM

[HBox]

That would be all well and good if these same people hadn't been protesting the removal of Saddam.

I didn't care about the Iraqi people then and I don't now. That's not why I opposed this war and that's not why I'm outraged by this scandal. I don't like seeing people tortured like in those photographs, but, frankly, I wouldn't have cared less. The only reason I have a big problem with it is because it's our soldiers doing the torturing. That's bad.

I bet bin Laden's sitting somewhere with his dream coming true. The United States, unprovoked, attacks an Arab country. We now have to keep a large number of troops there to control the situation for probably a long amount of time. To terrorists, they are now open targets. And now this torturing scandal. He has all the recruitment material he needs now, and more. We are not safer now. I thought this war would not make us safer and that's why I opposed it. There are far better times for us to be playing world liberators than right now.

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[blakjeezis]

This is just an idea, and I'm not usually in favor of doing things to please other countries, but the reality is that there is enormous Anti-American sentiment around the world, and something must be done to try and rebuild extremely strained if not broken former alliances. It'll never happen, but perhaps the offenders should be tried as war criminals at The Hague. I know the hardcore right would be against it, but I think it would be a show of good faith to the world community that we hold ourselves, and our military, to the exact same standards and laws as those to which we hold others.

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[Dudeman]

perhaps the offenders should be tried as war criminals at
The Hague.

who are the offenders? just the people who physically did it? as
very extreme examples, saddam may have never physically
tortured someone, Hitler may never have physically killed a jew,
but they certainly deserve the blame. should the leaders in
charge of those who committed these acts in iraq also be tried?


-I'll log off now, and listen to your
response.-

This message was edited by Dudeman on 5-9-04 @ 4:58 PM

[Yerdaddy]

Here's the difference. Everything you're saying, is intelligent, worth discussing in an open forum and when opposing ideas are presented and weighed objectively the solution is for the betterment of the country as a whole. It is, or are least should be the basis for our Democracy.

Hysterical chest-beating, and Chicken Little tactics employed by those like Toxic, and it happens on both sides of the aisle don't get me wrong (see also: Monica Lewinsky), do nothing. That's all I'm saying.
That's what I was looking for. I knew from past experience that you were above the hysterical hyperbole that's made up the bulk of this thread, beginning with the first post, and I just wanted to break up some of the generalizations. Other than that I didn't want to have anything to do with this pigeon rape of a thread. Thank you.

It'll never happen, but perhaps the offenders should be tried as war criminals at The Hague.
One of the conditions set in the rules of the ICC is that it only applies to countries without functioning judicial or military justice systems. Since we have both, regardless of political opposition, ICC jurisdiction doesn't apply to US soldiers. I think the best thing we can do to reverse the damage done by this problem is to conduct open, independent investigation into the size and scope of the problem within the military detention systems, and apply the military and civilian justice systems to anyone who bears responsibility. We have the "rule of law" in this country, and in our military. That's what separated us from the old Iraqi regime and all dictatorial regimes. All we need to do is demonstrate that it works and that it works independent of politics. If we can't demonstrate that then we've lost our ability to develop the principles of "rule of law" elsewhere, which is the fundamental change that is necessary for anything resembling a peaceful and stable world. I think it's an interesting idea to make such a gesture, but a better gesture is to stick to fix the problem domestically and to do whatever it takes to achieve our stated goals in Iraq. Fundamentally, we will be judged, and should be judged on the quality of the Iraqi society we leave behind.

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Fuck it from behind.

[high fly]

I hope they don't try to pin it all on a bunch of enlisted personnel.

Much of the blame goes on up to Rummy because he ste forth the policy that was flawed from the beginning.
*He hired himself some Hessians- private contractors who were outside the Uniform Code of Military Justice
*He assigned reserve or Guard units whose discipline is not as tight as with the regular Army
*They assigned the label "enemy combattants" instead of POWs, which deprived them of proper treatment and implied they could be abused.
*He refused entry by the International Red Cross or any other oversight body, implying that they would have a free reign in abusing the prisoners.


Another disgusting aspect of all this is that Al-fucking-Jazeera has been squawling about prisoner mistreatment since last summer. It's a dirty shame that Al-fucking-Jazeera has more accurate information to give us about our Army operations than our own government.

" and they ask me why I drink"
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[Doomstone]

To further illustrate the point that this isn't just a case of "a few bad apples" read up on the Stanford prison experiment and the Milgram experiment. In the Stanford experiment, students volunteered to participate in a simulated prison, with guards and prisoners chosen at random. They were all considered normal, mentally stable at the start; by the second day, there was already an uprising, and the two-week experiment had to be called off on the sixth day because things got so out of hand. Some of the techniques used by the "guards" are strikingly similar to the techniques used in Abu Gharib.

The Milgram experiment was done to find out how willing a subject is to obey someone in a position of authority, even when their orders conflict with their own ethics. Interesting stuff, check the links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Prison_Experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
http://www.prisonexp.org/



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[high fly]

Good one, Doomstone. I had forgotten about that.






RUMMY RHYMES WITH _____.








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This message was edited by high fly on 5-9-04 @ 9:24 PM

[furie]

TUMMY


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[high fly]

I was thinking more along the lines of, " DICK, but that doesn't rhyme.

" and they ask me why I drink"
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[Freakshow]

Those pictures from us looked like a hazing night at any college.

Where would anyone get such an idiotic idea? Could it be...

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/static/dowbrigade/rush.jpg


Actually this was a point Ronnie was making on air.


I guess you could really say the blunder with DBP was that the place was entirely undefensible...at the bottom of a freakin soupbowl ringed by hills...once the Viet Minh got on a couple of those hills, the battle was over, and then their relief column got ambushed and destroyed...


Yes, that is what I was referring. Much like Washington at Ft. Necessity for the French and Indian War.




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[JerryTaker]

OK, I've been away, and I just read this thread, and while going into all the points is an exercise in futility, I'll make this observation...

It's funny how on one page, liberals are accused of being "Muslim Lovers" or "Iraqi Lovers" and what have you, while on the next page it's "I'll bet you liberals wanted Saddam to keep torturing his people"

Things like that make my head explode every day...


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[FMJeff]

our troops" will still be there. "our troops" & contractors will still be slaughtered and drug through the streets.


I love when people invent past tense forms of words.


This is the greatest military blunder EVER.


Umm...no have you heard the country called Vietnam?





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[keithy_19]

I jusr hope people will still support our troops. There still trying to do the right things over there and the focus has turned from a guy like Pat Tillman, a hero, to these idiots who were in these pictures and tapes.

I know that Tillman was in a different country, but it's all connected.

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[blakjeezis]

liberals are accused of being "Muslim Lovers" or "Iraqi Lovers" and what have you, while on the next page it's "I'll bet you liberals wanted Saddam to keep torturing his people"


Inconsistency's a bitch, ain't it?

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[TheMojoPin]

It's the "other side's" inconsistency.

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[high fly]

Rummy gots to go.

" and they ask me why I drink"
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