Video Shows Beheading of American in Iraq

[curtoid]

"My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Suzanne," the man said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ... Philadelphia." (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/egypt_iraq_american_beheaded)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040511/lthumb.lon84305111908.iraq_american_beheaded_lon84 3.jpg

[curtoid]

Each day the news just seems to get worse and worse and fucking worse. Is this thing winnable??? Seriously - can someone, anyone, give me an excuse why this had to happen??? I am beyond sickened. This just brings back the nausia when we learned about Danny Pearl, someone who I shared mututal friends with. With that, however, I don't know - as horrible and sad as it was, Afghanistan seemed like a war of necessity. This one never has.

Just thinking about his family wrecks me.

It makes it so much worse when we break war down to the individual level.

Fuck...fuck...fuck...


This message was edited by curtoid on 5-11-04 @ 3:20 PM

[Patches]

http://www.clicktronic.com/archives/mission_accomplished.jpg

<img src=http://img24.photobucket.com/albums/v72/bcqueens/pj2.jpg>

<b>I'll punch every one of those bees in the face. Fuck bees. -Dane Cook</B>

[Furtherman]

Sickens my stomach. The kid was only 26.

<IMG SRC="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=7">
...with thanks to JustJon

[HBox]

I guess they wanted to remind everybody who the bad guys really are.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

This message was edited by HBox on 5-11-04 @ 3:27 PM

[keithy_19]

Sick. Fuckin' sick. Animals they are.

http://www.silentpix.com/modules/Coppermine/albums/userpics/dreamcometruesig.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

I feel so very sorry for the family right now...I can't even possibly put it into words how I feel for them. This has to be the most horrible thing for parents to see happen to their child...and everyone else on this stupid planet can see it, too.

Well, I refuse to watch it. Their pain is not mine. I have no right to it.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Tazz]

This is so so sad. But let's not turn it into a political tool to bash the Iraq war. These killers were al Queda. The group we are at war with everywhere. I don't think anyone can argue against hunting down and killing these fucks.

<img src=http://tazz1376.homestead.com/files/homersig.gif>

[JerryTaker]

These killers were al Queda. The group we are at war with everywhere. I don't think anyone can argue against hunting down and killing these fucks.


I do coke.... so I can work harder.... so I can make more money.... so I can do more coke.... so I can work harder... so I can make more money....

<IMG SRC="http://web.njit.edu/~gsm2321/gimliwall.gif">

Nothing we've shared means a thing
Without you close to me
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[Witness]

This is so so sad. But let's not turn it into a political tool to bash the Iraq war. These killers were al Queda. The group we are at war with everywhere. I don't think anyone can argue against hunting down and killing these fucks.


This is not sad there are no words for this.......an how you try to jump straight to your agenda amazes me.



<center>Kindest Regards,</center><center><img src="http://witnessi.homestead.com/files/sigs/Witnessig.jpg"></center>

[Tazz]

Actually, I have no agenda. I was responding to Patches post above and what he was implying.

<img src=http://tazz1376.homestead.com/files/homersig.gif>

[A.J.]

Suzanne Berg, the mother of the 26-year-old Berg, of West Chester, Pa., said her son was in Iraq as an independent businessman to help rebuild communication antennas.

An obvious threat to Islam.

Fucking savages.

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[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

Fucking savages.


I agree with AJ, but it makes me laugh to think my dad said the same thing about the Japanese and "forbade" me to by a Toyota.

War is hell, the face of it isn't necessarily the same, but it is hell. And a fact of life. Let's face it, history repeats itself time and time again.

My heart goes out to him and his family.



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It's a cat house! A CAT HOUSE! Thanks M1!

[FMJeff]

not defending the actions of these animals at all.

i felt a visceral disgust i haven't felt in ages....

don't hate muslims because of this...please...

this is what they WANT you to feel....disgust, anger, hatred....

soon you get sucked into the cycle of endless war and hatred the israelis deal with everyday...

retribution is not the answer to this...this was an example...its the most they can do....you gotta understand this...they know they can't win so murder is the only way they can send a message in the hopes fear will deter the US...

it won't...death of american soldiers never factored into the equation of this government's decision to go war...

that's the sad part...

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[TheMojoPin]

This guy wasn't a soldier, Jeff.

He was just a government contractor.

That makes it even worse.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-11-04 @ 5:43 PM

[gypsy]

Those sick bastards yelled, "God is Great" as they slit his throat. Muslim Savages. I though they Islam was a peacefull religon

I think the world would truly be a better place with out any religon. Sure, we would have to do with out a few charities, Hospitals, colleges, etc.

But many lives would have been spared through out the ages

[FMJeff]

This guy wasn't a soldier, Jeff.

He was just a government contractor.

That makes it even worse.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-11-04 @ 5:43 PM


i should be broader then...not american soldiers...americans period didnt factor into the equation....this was never in OUR best interests

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[FMJeff]

Those sick bastards yelled, "God is Great" as they slit his throat. Muslim Savages. I though they Islam was a peacefull religon

I think the world would truly be a better place with out any religon. Sure, we would have to do with out a few charities, Hospitals, colleges, etc.

But many lives would have been spared through out the ages



well all you need to do is convince people to take responsibility for thier own actions, look inward and not to a higher power for answers/hope/faith/support/love and you'll be set....



<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[Se7en]

I think the media should air pictures and video of this beheading nonstop -- the public has a right to know...

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/7_sig.gif" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos.
I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>

[FMJeff]

any halfway internet savvy person has it by now...i got three copies of it in my mailbox within 5 minutes

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[FMJeff]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/berg.family.ap/story.berg.family.ap.jpg

the father of the beheaded

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[shamus mcfitzy]

These killers were al Queda. The group we are at war with everywhere. I don't think anyone can argue against hunting down and killing these fucks.


true. Obviously they are the bad guys no matter. But it came partly from seeing others killed. And even if one were to argue that this is Al Queda and they'd do it no matter what (which they would), torturing people is going to lead to a backlash. That's why the stupid fucks who tortured those prisoners were trained to not fucking violate their rights.

Now it's on them. I hope they're fucking satisfied.

[BoondockSaint]

I think the media should air pictures and video of this beheading nonstop -- the public has a right to know...

Did you feel the same way about them showing the people trapped in the top floors of the Twin Towers jumping? I'm not tooling, but how does it help the family of those people?

http://www.myimgs.com/random/boondocksaint/rfnet
Thanks to monsterone for the sig!

This message was edited by BoondockSaint on 5-11-04 @ 6:19 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Personally, I feel if the media chooses to show it, they should be able to.

I'll just choose not to watch it.

My question is, why would anyone NEED to see it?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[WRESTLINGFAN]

You wont see these savages apologize for what they did

FIRE SATHER!!!!!!!

[TheMojoPin]

Why would anyone expect them to do so in the first place?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[BoondockSaint]

My above post is wrong. The point I was trying to get at was: Do some people feel that the media used horrific images of people dying in order to support a war and now will use this in order to stop a war?

http://www.myimgs.com/random/boondocksaint/rfnet
Thanks to monsterone for the sig!

[FMJeff]

Personally, I feel if the media chooses to show it, they should be able to.

I'll just choose not to watch it.

My question is, why would anyone NEED to see it?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."


Shell shock...shock value...its easy to say I'm for or against this war...this is real life...it needs to be seen (by an ADULT though...kids can't handle that)

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[A.J.]

I assume this guy was Jewish as was Daniel Pearl. I think it's no accident that they have executed two "Zionists" in this manner.

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Red Sox Nation

[HBox]

What bothers me about media coverage of this is that they are saying it's a response to the prisoner abuse, as if we drove them to this and they weren't trying to kill us anyway.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[TheMojoPin]

Personally, I feel if the media chooses to show it, they should be able to.

I'll just choose not to watch it.

My question is, why would anyone NEED to see it?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."


Shell shock...shock value...its easy to say I'm for or against this war...this is real life...it needs to be seen (by an ADULT though...kids can't handle that)

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

OK, you could argue the specifics of how exactly this related to the war in Iraq until the cows came home...so this guy was there because of the war...but if he was killed by and Al Queda cell that's now active in Iraq because of the war...see? It's so fucked up and skewed on multiple levels. It's not black and white or cut and dry.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Bestinshow]

This is not to say that I feel that all Muslims support this behavior,because I am sure they do not, but where is the public outcry overthere? I am so tired of the hypocrisy that all Americans are responsible for the wrong doings of few misguided, brainless, fucking assholes. And these misdoings were perpetrated against guerillas if given given a chance, would be beheading their captors. And while our country, basically as a whole, collectivally abhore these thoughtless,blasphemous acts, you don't hear a peep of any sorrow, nevermind condemnation, for such coldblooded, brutal murder of a civilian who risked his life to aid the rebuilding of Iraq coming from the general population and religious leaders over there. Where is the public outcry that blanketed all media the last few weeks for blasphemous acts perpetrated against people, who by definition as terrorists, are already blaspheming their religion?
I bet my heart and my lungs there is nothing on Al Jazeere condemning this brutality.
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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 5-11-04 @ 8:13 PM

[LordJezo]

High speed video link for those that want to watch it, or force themselves to watch it. (http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jpgeiger/iraq/iraq2vediom.wmv)

------------------------
I KISS YOU!

This message was edited by LordJezo on 5-16-04 @ 9:58 PM

[Ndugu]

i would not shed one tear if every arab man woman and child had their fucking heads chopped off, fucking monkey pieces of shit they all are



-=This My Signature=-

[HBox]

i would not shed one tear if every arab man woman and child had their fucking heads chopped off, fucking monkey pieces of shit they all are


Well then you share on thing in common with those horrible fucks.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[WindowSill]

i would not shed one tear if every arab man woman and child had their fucking heads chopped off, fucking monkey pieces of shit they all are


Thats pretty fuckin harsh man, not every Arab supports this system of beliefs, however, your opinion, youre entitiled to it...

As far as the video goes, I almost puked watching that...it is without a doubt the most gruesome...most heinous...most despicable thing I have ever seen...and to even think that these kind of people exist sickens me...

http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v89/metalsat666/ws_sig.gif
"If progress is the process of moving forward, whats congress?"

[Late2party]

OK, you could argue the specifics of how exactly this related to the war in Iraq until the cows came home...so this guy was there because of the war...but if he was killed by and Al Queda cell that's now active in Iraq because of the war...see? It's so fucked up and skewed on multiple levels. It's not black and white or cut and dry.

Indeed. It seems his father is a signatory to the March 20 Call to Action petition to get the US out of Iraq sponsored by International A.N.S.W.E.R. ("Bring the troops home now! End colonial occupation from Iraq to Palestine and everywhere! Money for jobs, education, healthcare
and housing - Not war!").

He was arrested by Iraqi officials at a checkpoint in Mosul March 24.

The FBI showed up at his parents' house on March 31 asking questions about why he was in Iraq.

His parents sued the government April 5 contending he was being held illegally by the US military in Iraq.

He was released April 6.

The last time his parents heard from him was April 9.

[furie]

what pisses me off is that the US media is saying that this is in retaliation for the abuses in the prison. But Berg was executed before that story broke.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/furieboard.gif" height=100 width=300">

[reeshy]

I watched the film...I don't have an answer now....all I did was cry....

[center]<IMG SRC=http://images.chron.com/content/news/photos/02/05/26/tomwaits.jpg>
[center]

[furie]

What bothers me about media coverage of this is that they are saying it's a response to the prisoner abuse, as if we drove them to this and they weren't trying to kill us anyway.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/furieboard.gif" height=100 width=300">

[FUNKMAN]

Americans should just stay out of Iraq...

he didn't deserve to be killed

but you know what? there's a few people over there that 'just may' not like us...


<img src="http://www.grandfunkrailroad.com/covers/redalbum100.gif">
INSIDE LOOKING OUT

[TooCute]

i would not shed one tear if every arab man woman and child had their fucking heads chopped off, fucking monkey pieces of shit they all are

Ooh! Did we start allowing racism on the board again?


<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/toocute3.gif">

[monsterone]

Ooh! Did we start allowing racism on the board again?


relax toocute, we can all see when someone is posting out of emotion. in a lot of ways, it takes me back to the perlman execution.

simply incomprehendable.



and after watching the full video i fully understand nduge's opinion. i'm not saying it's right, but i understand it. there is no a place in hell deep enough for these soulless fuckers sawing off a head in the name of god.


<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="red" size="1"> dead in the middle of little italy little did we know every riddle's a middleman who didn't do diddily </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

This message was edited by monsterone on 5-11-04 @ 10:39 PM

[Se7en]

My question is, why would anyone NEED to see it?

Why not?

If I can be shown endless footage / photos of the prisoners who were abused - the same folks who have committed crimes such as this murder, or worse - then I should be shown this.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/7_sig.gif" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos.
I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>

[JohnnyCash]

Those fucking animals. Thats terrible news.

<img src=http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/guests/cash_sig.jpg>
Big thanks to Monsterone.

[ChickenHawk]

I am with Mojo...
I have no desire to see this video and I will not watch it.
I don't need to see a gruesome video of someone's cold-blooded murder to understand what is going on in the world. It would just make me sick to my stomach. I'd probably cry, and more than anything, I'd get very angry. It hurts me enough to know that this happened, and the pain his family and friends are experiencing right now must be unimaginable. I would not feel right watching their son's death.


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HORDE KING FOREVER!!! ORACLE NEVER!!!
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[HBox]

If I can be shown endless footage / photos of the prisoners who were abused - the same folks who have committed crimes such as this murder, or worse - then I should be shown this.

A little bitter? The only problem is you have no idea who those prisoners are, what they did to get in their, or if they actually did anything to get in there. I've heard anywhere from 60%- 90% of the prisoners there where in there without being charged with a thing, and people have hinted the abuses are far worse than the pictures we've already seen. Like murder.

There are no excuses for any of this. And if we are going to be shown photos of the torture, we should be shown this. And that's the way it should be. People should be aware of the costs of war, and the reasons we are fighting it in the first place.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

This message was edited by HBox on 5-11-04 @ 10:55 PM

[Captain Rooster]

RAGE



<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

[TheMojoPin]

This is not to say that I feel that all Muslims support this behavior,because I am sure they do not, but where is the public outcry overthere? I am so tired of the hypocrisy that all Americans are responsible for the wrong doings of few misguided, brainless, fucking assholes. And these misdoings were perpetrated against guerillas if given given a chance, would be beheading their captors. And while our country, basically as a whole, collectivally abhore these thoughtless,blasphemous acts, you don't hear a peep of any sorrow, nevermind condemnation, for such coldblooded, brutal murder of a civilian who risked his life to aid the rebuilding of Iraq coming from the general population and religious leaders over there. Where is the public outcry that blanketed all media the last few weeks for blasphemous acts perpetrated against people, who by definition as terrorists, are already blaspheming their religion?
I bet my heart and my lungs there is nothing on Al Jazeere condemning this brutality.

The sadly ironic thing is that this awful, awful killing overshadowed our news coverage of some pretty huge protests by the Iraqi people AGAINST that asshole Iraqi religious cleric who's been calling for all the violence against the coalition forces lately. So instead of seeing that there IS some hope and that there are indeed some Iraqi people who aren't listening these dipshits, they get pre-empted by the actions of a bunch of murdering, Jordanian terrorist scumfucks who say they're "fighting for the Iraqi people."

Hideous.

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-12-04 @ 12:04 AM

[monsterone]

i just can't get the image of his head being sawed off. it seemed like an eternity and it was hard to tell when he stopped screaming.

it's hard to believe that extremists who visit the site where this is orginally from watch it to get psyched up. i mean, i'm disgusted by the american photos. you have no humanity left in your soul if you enjoy watching it.

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="red" size="1"> dead in the middle of little italy little did we know every riddle's a middleman who didn't do diddily </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

[Captain Rooster]

Sadly, that gurgling sound will stay with me for a long, long time.

I was at the Trade Center on 9/11--now this--what the fuck?

We, as a race, are in big, big trouble.



<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

This message was edited by Captain Rooster on 5-12-04 @ 12:13 AM

[TheMojoPin]

i mean, i'm disgusted by the american photos. you have no humanity left in your soul if you enjoy watching it.

Exactly.

Shit, I couldn't even look at all of the photos of the Iraqi prisoners...there's NO way I'm watching all of this film.

I just don't have it in me to witness "real" human suffering and misery, no matter what the situation.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[curtoid]

Well, like Mojo and Chickenhawk and others, I couldn't watch it. While I love scary movies, books, stories, etc, I have never had much of a stomach for the real stuff. I think I watched a few minutes of one of the faces of death movies years ago and from time to time have checked out "rotten.com," but nothing that I've been actively interested in seeing.

I remember being very affected back when I was 15 and seeing someone commit suicide on television by throwing themselves into Niagara Falls. The camera zoomed right in on his face as he walked into the river, and disappeared moments later over the edge. Then, 10 years ago (oddly enough - about a half hour after I met Howard Stern at his DC book signing!), I came onto a car accident near the Kennedy Center after it happened, but before the ambulance or police had arrived, and from where I was (I as on another side of a highway) it was clear that at least two people were dead. Very humbling and sobering, and images forever burned into my brain.

Then, a couple of years ago, working on a 9/11 project, and having the privilege to work with rescue workers, survivors and family members from that day - holding charred ID cards from Port Authority workers in NY, or a Pentagon commander in DC, who were both killed - pieces of the airplanes (include a seat belt that was designated for the flight attendant) and finally, actual pieces of the building - all of which had to go through decontamination before we could work with them. It really took a toll on me - just living with that event, all the time.

So, no - I didn't need any more stuff imprinted on my brain. The still images and video shown on the news prior to his beheading, not to mention the descriptions, were more than enough. And (as someone also said) I don't need a reminder that these were the bad guys that did this. Mojo nailed it when he talked about the family, and not needing to co-opt their pain and suffering.

Ooh! Did we start allowing racism on the board again?

It's stunning how we can go from Zero To Racist in no time flat.

What bothers me about media coverage of this is that they are saying it's a response to the prisoner abuse, as if we drove them to this and they weren't trying to kill us anyway.
what pisses me off is that the US media is saying that this is in retaliation for the abuses in the prison. But Berg was executed before that story broke.

If I'm not correct, I believe the statement read by the terrorists specifically mention the abuse at the prison. What we're forgetting is that allegations of the abuse there have been out there for over a year (!), they only now have been crystallized by the images, and therefore became relevant to us, over her in America. Over there, Muslims and Arabs have been screaming about the atrocities, pretty much into a vacuum.

If I can be shown endless footage / photos of the prisoners who were abused - the same folks who have committed crimes such as this murder, or worse - then I should be shown this.

Ok, Parti Partisan checking in. First, to repeat what HBox said, the reports coming out of Iraq show that anywhere from 60% - 90% of those in that prison were falsely arrested Second, you would be happier living in ignorance than knowing what the rest of the world is seeing??? Even if you are one of those that will excuse the abuse by the soldiers as fraternal hazing, you can not deny the impact these images will have on the rest of the world. Republicans (and I'm not talking about you specifically, so get those panties untwisted), for the most part, LOVE to talk about "accountability," until it's something they support.

[edit]After rereading this diatribe, I wanted to add that, political shit aside, I actually agree with you that the images from this death should be available for those that wish to see them (living in a free society and all), especially (using my own fuzzy logic above - ha!) since the rest of the world will be seeing them, I just objec

[Bestinshow]

HOWEVER.the fact that we haven't seen mass demonstrations of support and outrage, underscores to me how far the United States has fallen with the rest of the world. If 9/11 were to happen again, today, the celebratory images we saw coming out of that one, lone neighborhood in Palestine back in 2001 would (in my opinion) be more widespread. The rest of the world has lost patience and empathy for us because of the careless and arrogant nature we took with invading and occupying Iraq. In my opinion, the greatest failure of President Bush (and it's no secret that I believe there are several) is that in 2 « years he squandered universal support from around the globe, to the point where we really are alone (with the exception of Great Britain).



I strongly disagree. First of all what support have we squandered? We welcomed support with open arms. And the recent abandonments have been the result of giving into to fear of terrorist threats such as the Madrid bombing.

And I am tired of the universal opinion of anyone in the Democratic party as describing us as "careless and arrogant" in how we invaded Iraq. First of all, how can you be arrogant in an invasion? Its hard to be nice when you are overthrowing a government. Was our stance arrogant? Whether you agree with them or not, their were significant , material issues that were addressed that led up to the invasion. Defying the UN, Germany and France does not make us arrogant.
And we are hardly careless. Like there is a right and wrong way to invade and rebuild a country chock full of extremist insurgents. Putting aside the issue of whether we should be there in the first place, the careless is used to describe our treatment after the invasion. Do you feel, Kerry or Gore or Clinton or whom ever you would prefer over Bush would have a more substantial plan? Simple fact of the matter is the fact that we are still there proves we arent careless. Because we certainly arent gaining anything from this.

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[billyio]

I think so many lines are being crossed in the aftermath of this war that we should never have declared a victory in the first place. What kind of occupation is this? I can't wait to turn this country over to these animals so that they can repress each other since I can see a theocratic government like Iran's being set up eventually anyway. Its really heartbreaking that this man had to die for the sake of making himself and eventually Iraqis some money. I know war brings its horrors,but..I don;t know. I just have those words echoing thru my mind: My father's name is Michael, My mother's name is Suzanne...

See Ya!

[TheMojoPin]

Defying the UN, Germany and France does not make us arrogant.

Eh?

"We're going in because Iraq has weapons that can harm us."

"We don't see serious proof of these accusations. We're not backing you and we think you should NOT go ahead with the invasion at this time."

"We're going in anyway. We'll have the proof afterwards, we can handle this essentially by ourselves, and show everyone we were right..."

How is that NOT arrogant? We had nothing, we bluffed, and we now have nothing but death, anarchy and chaos to deal with.

I'd have had no problem with the idea of invading Iraq if it had been sold to the American people, and the world, for the right reasons. It wasn't. And that makes the presumption that we can do this without consequences SUPREMELY arrogant.

In a roundabout way, Nick Berg is dead BECAUSE of this arrogance. The murderers themselves were Jordanian terrorists linked to Al-Queda, but it was the above arrogance and clear lack of planning that led to him being inserted into an environment where he could NOT be protected and his own government could not guarentee his safety. The arrogance allowed these murdering shitheels into the country to run rampant in the first place. Over 5,000 of these disgusting "foreign freedom fighters" have spilled into the country since "mission accomplished" was declared...how is THAT not arrogance?

And if anyone tries to spin what I just said into some kind of "anti-American" buzzphrase, you are truly scum, blind to the world, plain and simple.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-12-04 @ 1:31 PM

[TheMojoPin]

If I can be shown endless footage / photos of the prisoners who were abused - the same folks who have committed crimes such as this murder, or worse - then I should be shown this.

How are the two comparable? The beheading is obviously much, MUCH worse, and simple human decency dictates you wouldn't show something like that, especially with the grieving family out there. If there was footage of Pat Tillman being killed, should THAT be shown over and over again? Of course not. It would be perverted for all the wrong reasons. Certain Iraqi prisoner photos are censored by the media outlets for the content. It's not as if ALL of those are being shown, or all of the content of the photos already released. It's flat-out barbaric and sad to think that the release of THOSE photos somehow constitutes some sick "tit for tat" showing of the Nick Berg execution.

And it's not as if this story is somehow being "hidden" by the beheading itself not being shown. It's reported on multiple times every hour, and we see every part of the tape BUT the beheading...we know what happens, we're told countless times...what does seeing the act again and again accomplish? Explain THAT to me.

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2% << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[furie]

it was difficult to get through. I can't express how enraged I am right now.


<img src="http://tseery.homestead.com/files/furieboard.gif" height=100 width=300">

[TheMojoPin]

I bet my heart and my lungs there is nothing on Al Jazeere condemning this brutality.

They've only shown an edited clip thus far. No footage of the murder itself.

Arabic papers play down beheading (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/12/iraq.berg.arabreax/)

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-12-04 @ 1:46 PM

[Bestinshow]

We're going in because Iraq has weapons that can harm us."
"We don't see serious proof of these accusations. We're not backing you and we think you should NOT go ahead with the invasion at this time."
"We're going in anyway. We'll have the proof afterwards, we can handle this essentially by ourselves, and show everyone we were right..."



I know we've debated the justification or lack thereof ad naseum, but isnt this simplistic and convenient of an explanation? You know that is not exactly the way it occurred. There were A)a combination of ignored UN resolutions, B) confused and possible incompetent intelligence issues and C) a history that show these weapons were had and used in the past.

Whether you believe these are significant enough reasons is your opinion, but I hardly see how you can define that as arrogance.

How is that NOT arrogant? We had nothing, we bluffed, and we now have nothing but death, anarchy and chaos to deal with.


We bluffed? I hardly see this as a bluff. What motive would we have to bluff? To lie and knowingly start a war that will become unpopular? For what end?

And I hate to tell you, but I find it hard to believe anyone would expect anything but chaos and anarchy in a situation like this. I heard from the start that the war was just the first part and we had a long hard road ahead. How could anyone think different?

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[TheMojoPin]

I heard from the start that the war was just the first part and we had a long hard road ahead. How could anyone think different?

Apparently our administration did! Or did I imagine them talking about the "parades and celebrations" welcoming our soldiers in Iraq? They made very clear statements indicating that we would, for the most part, be welcomed into the country, and that the larger conflict would be relatively short.

Look, to me, it all seems arrogant. Stuff like what I just said, the "mission accomplished," that we went to war over the imminent threat of WMD's that we have yet to find ANYWHERE...it was all done under the very clear context of, "we're right, don't worry, it'll all sort itself out after we're through." And you're right, that's MY perception of everything we've been told and has happened in the last 18 months...but I'm sorry, I don't see a reason to NOT see our actions and statements as arrogance. We misestimated and we DID bluff...clearly, we did not KNOW that there would be WMD's...we just had a good guess. Well, we sold it that there would be some, and now there's not. To me, that seems like a bluff. Again, my perception.

The current administration clearly thought they would have a better handle on this conflict at this point. They thought there would have been more universal support from the Iraqi people. These ARE mistakes...but mistakes bred out of arrogance. The arrogance that this would overall be quickly won and the people would essentially flock to us. Nothing to me indicates this was fully planned out to deal with the types of situations that have now come up (We're basically having soldiers fight a war AND rebuild & police a country at the same time...how fair is THAT?), and now people like Nick Berg are paying the price. He's dead at the hands of Islamic extremists whose actions are enabled by the arrogant mistakes of the current administration. I don't think Bush and Co. are "bad men"...I just think they screwed up royally and this is the price of that folly.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-12-04 @ 2:20 PM

[TooCute]

Mojo expresses things better than me.

This message was edited by TooCute on 5-12-04 @ 2:11 PM

[Bestinshow]

Our victory in Iraq is certain, but it is not complete. Centralized power of the dictator has ended -- yet, in parts of Iraq, desperate and dangerous elements remain. Forces of our coalition will engage these enemies until they surrender or until they're destroyed. (Applause.) We have waged this war with determination and with clarity of purpose. And we will see it through until the job is done.


An April 15 2003 Presidential address



American and coalition forces still face serious risks in Iraq. Scattered enemy is still capable of doing harm to our forces and to the innocent. But we'll stay focused. We will finish what we've begun. We will press on until our mission is finished and victory is complete.


April 16 2003


We have difficult work to do in Iraq. We're bringing order to parts of that country that remain dangerous. We're pursuing and finding leaders of the old regime, who will be held to account for their crimes. We've begun the search for hidden chemical and biological weapons and already know of hundreds of sites that will be investigated. We're helping to rebuild Iraq, where the dictator built palaces for himself, instead of hospitals and schools. And we will stand with the new leaders of Iraq as they establish a government of, by, and for the Iraqi people
The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time, but it is worth every effort. Our coalition will stay until our work is done. Then we will leave, and we will leave behind a free Iraq

May 1 2003

Apparently our administration did! Or did I imagine them talking about the "parades and celebrations" welcoming our soldiers in Iraq? They made very clear statements indicating that we would, for the most part, be welcomed into the country, and that the larger conflict would be relatively short.


You are evidently getting different information than me because I never got these impressions.

The current administration clearly thought they would have a better handle on this conflict at this point. They thought there would have been more universal support from the Iraqi people. These ARE mistakes...but mistakes bred out of arrogance. The arrogance that this would overall be quickly won and the people would essentially flock to us.


I don't understand what gives you this impression. They clearly did not think this would be a short conflict. Its the arrogance of the liberal media that keeps printing revisionist history that gives this impression.

Furthermore, I don't see any evidence that the majority of Iraq is against us. These extremist insurgents represent a minority of the population, and perhaps maybe even foreigners, as you have stated yourself in many posts. Correct me if Im wrong but the actual Geography where the violence is taking place is a small minority of the actual area of Iraq.

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[GwEnYpOo]

these people are such disgusting animals



i watched the video , i don't think i'm able to say anything more about it

[center]
"come one , come all , into 1984..."

[A.J.]

The current administration clearly thought they would have a better handle on this conflict at this point. They thought there would have been more universal support from the Iraqi people. These ARE mistakes...but mistakes bred out of arrogance. The arrogance that this would overall be quickly won and the people would essentially flock to us. Nothing to me indicates this was fully planned out to deal with the types of situations that have now come up (We're basically having soldiers fight a war AND rebuild & police a country at the same time...how fair is THAT?), and now people like Nick Berg are paying the price. He's dead at the hands of Islamic extremists whose actions are enabled by the arrogant mistakes of the current administration. I don't think Bush and Co. are "bad men"...I just think they screwed up royally and this is the price of that folly.

Yep. The whole "Mission Accomplished" thing exemplifies the biggest mistake the administration made -- planning and executing a succesful war plan to defeat the Hussein regime yet giving little to no thought to the endgame afterward.

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[GwEnYpOo]

that's the Bush way

[center]
"come one , come all , into 1984..."

[Bestinshow]

I'm so glad I printed those blurbs. Because You people that hate Bush are either not going to read them, or just disregard them anyway. Yeah, thats it.
Bush might as well hold the knife. I'm sure if kerry wins everything will be spic and span in two weeks. I hear he knows how to plan a democracy.

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[blakjeezis]

What can you say, really? I haven't seen the whole video, and I won't. There's absolutely no way I could take it. I have trouble seeing the edited clips on the news and pics on every paper's front page. I can't even talk about it, writing's hard enough. I just don't understand how anyone could do that to another human being, no matter the reason. It's so sad. So Goddamn, fucking sad. This is so much more than a crime against America, or against Jews, or against Democracy. Anyone who calls himself human should be enraged. There is no punishment severe enough for these monsters.

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If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
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This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-12-04 @ 6:13 PM

[Mike Teacher]

Mojo expresses things better than me.


And Too Cute better then me.

What She said. About what He said.

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[Mike Teacher]

What can you say, really? I haven't seen the whole video, and I won't. There's absolutely no way I could take it.


I thought I could, and in the past, not a neuron would have fired thinking anything but 'let me watch the whole damn thing'.

And as I started to watch what went beyond the edited versions my Body said No. It was a literaly physical reaction. No. And I agreed.

This is the real pornography, and I choose not to view it. For Nick Berg, I believe, the end was the end. The pain resonates, rings out loudly for us, but for him, again my belief, it is mercifully over.

The picture I go back to time and time and time again is the Father, collapsed on the lawn, being comforted by his other son. This is an image that I will not be able to forget. Ever. For these people, it is not over. The pain and fear and dread are not gone. They remain.

Soapbox Mode = Off

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This message was edited by Mike Teacher on 5-12-04 @ 6:22 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Our victory in Iraq is certain, but it is not complete. Centralized power of the dictator has ended -- yet, in parts of Iraq, desperate and dangerous elements remain. Forces of our coalition will engage these enemies until they surrender or until they're destroyed. (Applause.) We have waged this war with determination and with clarity of purpose. And we will see it through until the job is done.


An April 15 2003 Presidential address



American and coalition forces still face serious risks in Iraq. Scattered enemy is still capable of doing harm to our forces and to the innocent. But we'll stay focused. We will finish what we've begun. We will press on until our mission is finished and victory is complete.


April 16 2003


We have difficult work to do in Iraq. We're bringing order to parts of that country that remain dangerous. We're pursuing and finding leaders of the old regime, who will be held to account for their crimes. We've begun the search for hidden chemical and biological weapons and already know of hundreds of sites that will be investigated. We're helping to rebuild Iraq, where the dictator built palaces for himself, instead of hospitals and schools. And we will stand with the new leaders of Iraq as they establish a government of, by, and for the Iraqi people
The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time, but it is worth every effort. Our coalition will stay until our work is done. Then we will leave, and we will leave behind a free Iraq

May 1 2003

Apparently our administration did! Or did I imagine them talking about the "parades and celebrations" welcoming our soldiers in Iraq? They made very clear statements indicating that we would, for the most part, be welcomed into the country, and that the larger conflict would be relatively short.


You are evidently getting different information than me because I never got these impressions.

The current administration clearly thought they would have a better handle on this conflict at this point. They thought there would have been more universal support from the Iraqi people. These ARE mistakes...but mistakes bred out of arrogance. The arrogance that this would overall be quickly won and the people would essentially flock to us.


I don't understand what gives you this impression. They clearly did not think this would be a short conflict. Its the arrogance of the liberal media that keeps printing revisionist history that gives this impression.

Furthermore, I don't see any evidence that the majority of Iraq is against us. These extremist insurgents represent a minority of the population, and perhaps maybe even foreigners, as you have stated yourself in many posts. Correct me if Im wrong but the actual Geography where the violence is taking place is a small minority of the actual area of Iraq.

<img src=http://publish.hometown.aol.com/gpigking/myhomepage/xxbis.gif?mtbrand=aol_us>

But there's a problem with those quotes...I stated very clearly that the administration gave us no clear plan or assurances that are applicable to the current situation BEFORE the war began. Again, that's my problem with all this...not the conflict itself, but how it was sold to us. All of the quotes you used are from at least approx. a month (The war officially began on March 19th, 2003 and ground troops entered the country March 20th, 2003, almost four weeks before your first quote) AFTER the ground war had been under way (And mostly won, and the rebel insurgance had already begun). I don't know how you can blame the timeline of history on the "liberal media."

I also did not say the majority of Iraqi people were against us. I said that administration said the majority of Iraqi people would welcome us with "parades and celebrations." This was not the case. Even most of the Iraqis that aren't "against us" per se still would rather see us gone altogether. All of the recent polls in Iraq have demonstrated that. And that's well beyon

[Bestinshow]

And I have no idea if you were refering to me with the "Bush haters" comment. I went out of my way to say that I don't view Bush and Co. as "bad men" or anything...just that they have screwed up when it comes to Iraq. As an American citizen, am I not allowed to critique my elected president in this manner without being branded a "*Insert current president here* hater?"


I was not refering to you at all. That was a general statement.
I don't know how you can blame the timeline of history on the "liberal media."

I'm sorry but I dont ever remember the administration saying anything about parades and greetings when we get there. I do remember the media exploiting the first images of Iraqi's greeting us. But I also remember the media refering to us as disorganized from day one , when they insisted we didnt bring enough troops and we had to travel to far.


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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 5-12-04 @ 6:42 PM

[HBox]

I'm so glad I printed those blurbs. Because You people that hate Bush are either not going to read them, or just disregard them anyway. Yeah, thats it.
Bush might as well hold the knife. I'm sure if kerry wins everything will be spic and span in two weeks. I hear he knows how to plan a democracy.

Give me a break. I've read them all before. And we can all go back now and cherry pick quotes from various sources that prove our point. The fact is this: They bothced the post-war occupation. While Bush was going out saying the safe stuff, Rumsfeld, Wolofowitz and Cheney were spouting all sorts of bullshit.

And, no, Kerry will not have this cleaned up in a week. It will take him a long time if he is elected. And all that is is an indictment of how badly Bush has botched this. I don't know fo sure if Kerry can build a democracy, but I know who can't, and I have a perfect example.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[Bestinshow]

It kills me when I read over and over how this was "botched". Other than the usual rhetoric of how we shouldn't be there, I have yet to read anything specific that anyone would do differently. All you guys know is this is a mess, so Bush is wrong. I would love to read these quotes where people in the administration said this would be short and sweet. Because I have never heard this would be easy. But of course we know Bush is doing it wrong. He's a Republican.
Give me a break. I've read them all before. And we can all go back now and cherry pick quotes from various sources that prove our point.
Please, cherry pick some quotes from the administration that back your argument because it drives me crazy when people say the administration
said this would be quick and painless. And I really mean it because if you can produce some of these quotes , it wont be so maddening to me anymore.

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 5-12-04 @ 6:55 PM

[HBox]

Other than the usual rhetoric of how we shouldn't be there, I have yet to read anything specific that anyone would do differently.

Let's see. Off the top off my head:

1. MORE TROOPS
2. Not disbanding the entire Iraqi army.
3. If possible, more international support. (i'm not saying it's possible, but you're deluding yourself if you think Bush did enough to get them in)

And, of course, I'm not a military expert, but there are more than a few generals who have criticized the administration.

But of course we know Bush is doing it wrong. He's a Republican.

You can only beat that straw man so much before it's a pile on the floor.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[Bestinshow]

You can only beat that straw man so much before it's a pile on the floor.


Oh please, I've used this analogy before and I'll use it again. There are people on this board that would have Bush arrested for kidnapping if he took out their mom for dinner.

And by the way, how are more troops going to help if we were forced to scale back our military presence because it was angering the Iraqi's? We have the manpower to go in and fight them but than we are accused of being to brutal. And you want more troops?

And I don't even know what you are talking about , as far deluding myself that Bush did everything he could for international support. Where does this assumption come from?
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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 5-12-04 @ 7:19 PM

[JerryTaker]

to add to HBOX's list

4. Take the exclusive contracts away from Kellog, Brown, and Root and put the Iraqi civillians back to work building their own damn country!

The "liberal" media would have us believe Iraq is some destitute 3rd world country, yet it had meusems, airports, businesses, refineries, etc. and the people who run them have not only been jobless for over a year, they've had no electricity or clean water in the DESERT! it should come as little surprise that these animalistic extremests are recruiting all over Iraq under these conditions.

If the June 30'th deadline comes and goes with no change? huh.. we haven't seen the "Gates of Hell" open yet...


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Nothing we've shared means a thing
Without you close to me
I can't live without you

[TheMojoPin]

I have yet to read anything specific that anyone would do differently.

Wait.

There clearly was no reason to rush into Iraq when we did. There are some countries we would have never sold on the invasion, but I guarentee you we could have gotten more support (In money, supplies, manpower, post-invasion rebuilding, whatever) than we have now. We COULD have waited...but we didn't. And this is what happens.

Give me ONE reason we couldn't have waited, say, six months.

And bestinshow, you're throwing out the charges of "anti-Bush/anti-Republican" so fast you're doing it before people can actually make such statements. In other words, you're making it up....or choosing to not directly address the people talking to you...namely, HBox and myself. Where have we done what you're levelling? And if we're not saying such things, why would you bring them up except to spin and, as HBox said, toss out a strawman argument? You're right, there are people here who despise Bush no matter what...but when you bring those people up when they're not even posting anything to respond to, it can't help but look like you're evading the points and questions we're bringing up.

And Rumsfeld himself was just called out by the partisan committee grilling him over the statements he made about the "welcoming parades." He didn't deny it.

I'd say I'm just questioning the administration's mistakes as opposed to "bashing" them, but I don't know if you'd pay attention.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-12-04 @ 7:23 PM

[Bestinshow]

Its kind of hard to restore services, utilities and infrastucture when the contractors are being killed and kidnapped. Gee wait, .....maybe thats why they are doing it? Nah, my bad. It's Bush's fault.

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[Bestinshow]

Mojo, Im not referring to you in the statements you mention, but I don't want want to say specifically who I do feel that way about because it will sound antagonistic if I refer to someone specifically. And from posting here the last couple of years, I find my statement to be true on a regular basis.

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[TheMojoPin]

If the "Bush-bashing" is appropriate, why should it be off-limits? These mistakes are happening on his watch, because of a war he started. Who else is there to blame when we want answers?!?

It's downright embarassing. The lack of contractors in the first place (Because you can't do fullscale rebuilding in active combat zones) is the result of the environment created by a poorly planned post-invasion scenario for Iraq. If you're SO desperate for someone to blame Bush, fine...I WILL in this case, because the invasion (And what happened after) was initiated by him and his administration, it happened on his watch...who else are we SUPPOSED to blame? Give me a more appropriate target and I'll take it in this case. Lay it all out on the table and lead us to the promised land.

I said it already...we can't rebuild because most of the areas that need rebuilding are still essentially active combat zones, and we have a small amount of contractors that can get in. So we're either stuck with not enough contractors, contractors who are under constant risk of life and limb, or soldiers doing the jobs of the contractors. Explain to me how ANY of those scenarios AREN'T the result of poor planning or mistakes on the part of the administration that INITIATED this invasion?!?

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-12-04 @ 7:33 PM

[Bestinshow]

Give me ONE reason we couldn't have waited, say, six months.


These resolutions were broken for years already. We were forever waiting for 6 more months. And if the intelligence was correct, six more months would have been more dangerous. If you remember, even that British weapons guy, Kelly I believe he was, felt Hussein was weeks away.



I'd say I'm just questioning the administration's mistakes as opposed to "bashing" them, but I don't know if you'd pay attention.


I'm paying perfect attention and you definitely gave me the impression you were bashing the mistakes when you claimed that Berg and others were dying due to our arrogance.

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[HBox]

I am reasonably certain that they will greet us as liberators, and that will help us to keep the reuirements down.

We're dealing with a country that can really finance it's own reconstruction.

Paul Wolfowitz, July 18, 2003, Salon.com

The U.S. invasion "had the potential to transform the thinking of people around the world about the potential of democracy, even in Arab countries where people have been disparaging of their potential."

Richard Perle, March 2, 2003, New York times Magazine

It's hard to conceive that it would take more forces to provide stability in post-Saddam Iraq than it would to take to conduct the war itself and secure the surrender of Saddam's security forces.

Paul Wolfowitz, July 24, 2003 Washington Post

Damn you for making me do research for a message board post, BTW.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[Bestinshow]

It's downright embarassing. The lack of contractors in the first place (Because you can't do fullscale rebuilding in active combat zones) is the result of the environment created by a poorly planned post-invasion scenario for Iraq. If you're SO desperate for someone to blame Bush, fine...I WILL in this case, because the invasion (And what happened after) was initiated by him and his administration, it happened on his watch...who else are we SUPPOSED to blame? Give me a more appropriate target and I'll take it in this case. Lay it all out on the table and lead us to the promised land.


Sounds like bashing to me. And how about this for a target? Why don't we blame the terrorists? I said it before and I'll say it again. There is no easy solution to this, no matter who is running things. How can you plan not to be under attack while we rebuild? This war will last for years.

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[TheMojoPin]

Give me ONE reason we couldn't have waited, say, six months.


These resolutions were broken for years already. We were forever waiting for 6 more months. And if the intelligence was correct, six more months would have been more dangerous. If you remember, even that British weapons guy, Kelly I believe he was, felt Hussein was weeks away.

Dangerous to whom? That still has never been clarified to my satisfaction (My opinion). Israel? America? Why did the American president have to order the American army to invade Iraq ASAP? I'll buy faulty intelligence...but everything we've found thus far indicates Saddam's WMD program had regressed to the starting stages at best. That's a huge, HUGE SNAFU. And hey, THAT is not Bush's fault. Bush is given this intelligence by the CIA...this is the CIA's fault. But, Bush IS in charge now. He should then move to reshape the Agency and attempt to fix the serious breakdown of intelligence this country has fallen victim to. I can't understand why he possibly hasn't even attempted this. And we still haven't been given an inkling of WHAT exactly demonstrated this "weeks away" capacity. At this point it's still basically, "trust us, we know what we saw," so I'm going to be wary of what could have possibly led to my government being SO wrong about that.



I'd say I'm just questioning the administration's mistakes as opposed to "bashing" them, but I don't know if you'd pay attention.


I'm paying perfect attention and you definitely gave me the impression you were bashing the mistakes when you claimed that Berg and others were dying due to our arrogance.[/quote]

I said people like Berg are dying because of the ADMINISTRATION'S arrogance...not "ours." Civilian contractors are not supposed to, nor are they able to, do their jobs to their fullest capacities in active combat zones. They are supposed to go into and rebuild areas AFTER most of the major combat has ceased. This is clearly not the case. To me, our administration being willing to put these people at risk IS arrogance of the highest caliber, because it's clearly NOT safe and they should NOT be there at this point. It was a mistake born of desperation and arrogance to attempt to pour contractors into Iraq at this point when the troops' job is far from done, it's NOT safe, and you've got just as many, if not more, "foreign fighters" crossing the borders to attack coalition forces.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

It's downright embarassing. The lack of contractors in the first place (Because you can't do fullscale rebuilding in active combat zones) is the result of the environment created by a poorly planned post-invasion scenario for Iraq. If you're SO desperate for someone to blame Bush, fine...I WILL in this case, because the invasion (And what happened after) was initiated by him and his administration, it happened on his watch...who else are we SUPPOSED to blame? Give me a more appropriate target and I'll take it in this case. Lay it all out on the table and lead us to the promised land.


Sounds like bashing to me. And how about this for a target? Why don't we blame the terrorists? I said it before and I'll say it again. There is no easy solution to this, no matter who is running things. How can you plan not to be under attack while we rebuild? This war will last for years.

Well, that's your opinion. I don't know what I can possibly say or explain to the contrary, because apparently you want to see me as something I'm not.

And nobody's NOT blaming the terrorists. I went out of my to say who exactly killed Berg because I knew a diversionary non-argument like this would come up. I've also been clear about what I feel GOT Berg killed. There's a clear difference for anyone who wants to see it.

And nobody was expecting "instant peace." But the clear implication from the Bush asministration was that resistance would be relatively minor after we won the primary invasion, and we'd be able to going fullscale with our rebuilding of Iraq. If they didn't think that, why would they have set a date like June 30th? Instead, the level of resistance has hindered any rebuilding to almost nothing, and we're almost a month away from the hand-over date. How could that NOT be the result of poor planning and strategic mistakes?

I don't now, nor ever did, expect a "perfect war." But this isn't going well, acceptable or tolerable. It's going poorly, at best. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be sweating this deadline so much.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Bestinshow]

Damn you for making me do research for a message board post, BTW.


But doesn't it make you feel like a better person? :p

I'm too tired to address them although I have to say you have to admit , it was a safe guess they would be able to finance this with oil. Although thats all we have to do is take their oil to pay for this.

And you did all that for me. And here it is I thought you hated me. ;)
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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 5-12-04 @ 8:27 PM

[Bestinshow]

Mojo, we are going in circles on this but I have addressed your questions. You have stated yourself about the intelligence snafus that basically forced Bush's hand. So once we invaded we were committed. And there isn't enough planning in the world that was going to find a solution to fixing a country while guerilla fighters from all of our enemies converge against us at the same time. It would be nice to start the rebuilding when the country is stable but that will take years and we are already being accused of moving too slow. I guess my point is our intelligence got us into the war, and once we were in, I don't see how anyone can get blamed for this shitstorm.

Now will you both leave me the hell alone so I can go home. Pick on someone else for the rest of tonight.

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This message was edited by Bestinshow on 5-12-04 @ 8:09 PM

[TheMojoPin]

The faulty intelligence still doesn't excuse not having a better laid out post-war plan.

How hard would it be to have said, "OK, what IF there's a bigger insurgance force than we think...what IF there aren't any WMD's...what IF we have to look for much more longterm, much more intensive military presence?" It does not appear these things were properly considered or planned for. They gambled on the relatively quick and easy win and din't get it. Arrogance, errors, mistakes and failures, period. It doesn't matter who would have been in charge...these mistakes fall with the leaders who planned and called for all this, period. If you want to skirt that by dismiss any such analysis as just partisan bashing, there's nothing I can do or say that'll get through.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Captain Rooster]

No one but Britain supported us.

Remember: we are dealing with animals.

You may think I'm crazy; weigh having women's undies on a man's head versus having a man's head CHOPPED off with a dull knife.

These people will not rest unilt all Americans and Jews are dead: BOTTM LINE.

We cannat act like we are dealing with rational, cultred people. Period.


<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

[TheMojoPin]

You may think I'm crazy; weigh having women's undies on a man's head versus having a man's head CHOPPED off with a dull knife.

The two aren't comparable. Hence why pretty much everyone thinks the terrorists are even crazier than they were before for trying to use that as some kind of sick "excuse."

We cannat act like we are dealing with rational, cultred people. Period.

Indeed. These guys are linked to Al-Queada (All things are pointing to a particular group of Jordanian extremists), and people like them have done nothing but prove again and again why they are our enemies (And the enemy of our allies and the Iraqi people) and should be stopped no matter what. Thankfully, we don't have anyone trying to defend them here, or trying to paint Al-Queada operatives and allies as "rational, cultured people."

Trust me, Rooster, everyone here agrees these guys are nothing but murdering scum and deserve all the suffering in the world. Nobody's defending them, or trying to compare what they did to what's happening in the Iraqi prisons.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Doomstone]

weigh having women's undies on a man's head versus having a man's head CHOPPED off with a dull knife.


Does the military give out "Not as bad as the worst people in the world" medals?

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Thanks to M1 for the sig!</center>

[TooCute]

We cannat act like we are dealing with rational, cultred people. Period.

Just to clarify, we're talking abut Al-Qaida and whatever insurgents there are in Iraq, right?

Not Iraqis as a whole?

<img src="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/bans/toocute3.gif">

[NewYorkDragons80]

What bothers me about media coverage of this is that they are saying it's a response to the prisoner abuse, as if we drove them to this and they weren't trying to kill us anyway.

You're more right than you know. According to al-Jazeera (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C6F93CE0-8FCB-425E-BD40-672B38CF68B1.htm), this was not in response to the abuse at Abu Graib, but because they
offered the US administration to exchange this hostage with some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused," the statement said.
They do mention the abuse, but it was not the determining factor in this (obviously) and now we have proof.

BTW Mojo, I disagree about who we could've gotten on board if we waited. I originally felt that way about Russia, but then we found out the Iraqis were using Russian equipment. Not stuff from the old days, but new equipment from Russia.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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This message was edited by NewYorkDragons80 on 5-13-04 @ 12:54 AM

[TheMojoPin]

I too think certain countries would have never come on board, no matter what...namely, France and Russia. Germany, however, is an example of a country we possibly could have swayed. Canada is another. And key countries that are (Or were) with us, like Britain and Spain, might have been inclined to offer us MORE support (Especially in terms of troop numbers) than what we ultimately ended up with. And if more smaller countries jumped on board, it would have given less power to France and Russia's "cause" against us.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-13-04 @ 1:23 AM

[monsterone]

so i've been having more and more problems with the end strategy with this more, but at work today i downloaded the video and and been showing it to people and gauging their responses.

the most profound response came from a 45 yr old grandfather who is a reservist who will be going to iraq soon. he signed up to get paid. he'll be behind the scenes over there but that doesn't make him safe. he's doing it for his daughter. he'll make 80g's for his stint, or half a mill for her if he dies. he has it all figured out. but we got to discussing the situation...









and he gave me a renewed perspective. these people live in an age that the rest of the world has progressed beyond. there was a certain time when murder was the answer to most problems. even in this country.

he made the point of civil rights and such (he's a black gentleman). black people got fed up and <b>fought</b> for their rights. <i>keep in mind we live in a nation that seperates church and state, like most <b>civilized</b> nations.</i> and through a long and painful journey, civil rights were achieved. same thing with suffragism, etc...

the people of islamic nations are only used to being bullied. conform to these men in power or die horrifcally. they have never know freedom or any concept.

his sollution, whipe out any eidence of this mentality. these people in power only want to stay in power with an iron fist.

there was a time when every nation used these tactics, but most have progressed on. these arab nations have not. and as the rest of the world has evolved, their mentality has not, and that is very dangerous in todays world with today's weapons.

they can only bring more harm than good so it is only better to remove them. the admistration's goals are very hazywhich is dangerous in it's self.

and regarding the geneva convention and remmy say it applys and doesn't. it applys to use yet it doesn't apply to al quida. which is a very fucked up circumstance to be in. it, for the most part, eraeses the rules of war when fighting a rouge "nation." how are we able to fight a "civilized" war when the rules don't apply to the other side. it's not fair or morally just. how can it apply to one side and not the other?

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<font color="red" size="1"> dead in the middle of little italy little did we know every riddle's a middleman who didn't do diddily </font>


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[TheMojoPin]

how are we able to fight a "civilized" war when the rules don't apply to the other side. it's not fair or morally just. how can it apply to one side and not the other?

We did it fighting the much larger Japanese and German armies (Both of which willfully ended up flaunting the Geneva convention left and right, especially the Japanese) at the same time.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[curtoid]

Berg Died for Bush, Rumsfeld 'Sins' - Father (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=3&u=/nm/20040513/ts_nm/iraq_usa_beheading_family_dc)

"My son died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. This administration did this," Berg said in an interview with radio station KYW-AM.



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[HAMMERHEAD]

You can see the whole video at WWW.THEMEMORYHOLE.COM but I warn you it is very disturbing, I saw it a day and a half ago and I still can't get it out of my head.

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Thanks ToDd EvF
"I'll kill

[Jennitalia]

I made the mistake in watching it, and now I can't sleep at night. As soon as I clothes my eyes, I keep playing it over and over again in my head. My heart goes out to his family

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[A.J.]

No one but Britain supported us.

Italy, Poland and Ukraine still do.

Spain did...once.

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[NewYorkDragons80]

Germany, however, is an example of a country we possibly could have swayed. Canada is another.
Although I was and continue to be a supporter of this war, I don't think we could have realistically expected the Germans to fight in a serious war and I can't blame any German legislator who didn't jump at the opportunity. Canada I can probably agree to, though.

<marquee>
"To insist on strength is not war-mongering. It is peace-mongering." -Senator Barry M. Goldwater "If gold should rust, what will iron do?" -Geoffrey Chaucer "Worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings.-Romans 12:1</marquee>
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[TheMojoPin]

Well, I don't think Germany could have fought...wouldn't it have been illegal for them to do so?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[monsterone]

1. good point mojo; i don't have an answer but hope someone can provide one.

2. rooster brings up great points, coming from experience. people should listen to him more.

3. can anyone comprehend the mentality of the people who watch this to get inspired??? it is posted on extremist muslim web pages to psyche up them. i am disgusted but the photos of the us soldiers and in no way find pleasure in seeing them. yet this video is posted to inspire enemy combatants. simply fucked up.

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<center>

<font color="red" size="1"> dead in the middle of little italy little did we know every riddle's a middleman who didn't do diddily </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

[JohnnyCash]

I made the mistake of watching this video and Im sorry that I did. That was just horrific. I also saw the poor guys family on the news and I cant imagine what theyre going through.

Watching the video was terrible but listening to Berg's screams is what Im not going to be able to get out of my head.

If you havent seen the video yet- dont download it.

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Big thanks to Monsterone.

[HAMMERHEAD]

As someone who has seen it, I totally agree do yourself a favor DO NOT WATCH THIS VIDEO!!!!!!!!!!!

<img src=http://members.aol.com/tromatizedtodd/sigpics/hammerhead1.gif>
Thanks ToDd EvF
"I'll kill

[TheMojoPin]

can anyone comprehend the mentality of the people who watch this to get inspired???

The lowest of the low.

People who said "bye-bye" to their humanity a LONG time ago...

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[BrianTheBailBondsman]

Ya know they do have masks on... Anyone ever hear of PROPAGANDA? How do we know it wasnt U.S. military thats behind the masks to draw the attention away from the prison scandle that the 'ing Press should never have made public?

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[A.J.]

Well, I don't think Germany could have fought...wouldn't it have been illegal for them to do so?

Germany is part of the IFOR contingent in Bosnia.

Italy and Japan have troops in Iraq. I think restrictions on Japanese military activities have been relaxed in this instance. As you may know, their "navy" is known as the "Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force" -- part of the post-war constitutional design.

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[curtoid]

Germany has a small armed forces ("the Bundeswehr") - about 300,000 total troops, which they are looking to cut back to about 250,000 by 2010, due to both budget restraints, and the end of the cold war. During the height of the cold war they were at about 500,000 - then, at German unification, the combined strength of the Bundeswehr and former East German forces (National People's Army or NPA) totaled about 600,000.

Less than 10,000 of their troops are currently overseas - patrolling shipping lanes off the Horn of Africa, and peacekeeping missions in the Balkans and even Afghanistan.

Last year, as the Iraq war machine was hearting up, there was a lot of talk in Germany of pulling all of their people out of Afghanistan if the tensions heated up.

They actually have a form of the draft there (and not the good, beer kind - ha), which was challenged in their courts last year as to the legality. They have this civilian army because of the Nazi past. Since the end of World War II, German men aged 18 and over have to serve in the military or undertake community service. Women, are not drafted.

"Preventive action requires unambiguous intelligence. The weapons of mass destruction which cannot be found in Iraq have shown how thin the ice can be when one embarks on a war of self-defense on the basis of supposedly clear proof of an imminent threat." - German Chancellor Gerhard Schr”der said a little over a year ago, questioning the legality of the War.

Germany was against the war primarily due to their first hand experience with the horrors of it. Before any use of the Bundeswehr in armed operations, Germany's parliament must vote on approval. However, as a tool of NATO (they joined 10 years after WW2) they would have gone.

Bundeswehr's website (http://www.bundeswehr.de/)

AND - regardless all of the jokes, the French actually have a very, very well trained army that we could have used in Iraq; their special OPS are some of the finest in the world.



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[b][i]Much thanks to M1 for the siggie...!i][b]

[A.J.]

the French actually have a very, very well trained army that we could have used in Iraq; their special OPS are some of the finest in the world.


True that. A few years ago they stormed a hijacked airliner and killed all the terrorists aboard without a single civilian casualty.

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[TheMojoPin]

Does the French Foreign Legion still exist?

Those guys were pretty hardcore.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[HBox]

Know who else has a pretty decent army? Israel. Asking them would have been a GREAT idea.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[RF Godfather]

Get our troops out of there now and drop the big one!

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[sr71blackbird]

I heard that he was arrested and held for a while and his parents sued for his release and he was let go and then a few days later he was captured by these guys and then they made the video of his beheading. His parents are saying now that it was Bush's and the administrations fault. I can see where they might come to that conclusion, if while he was being held and in the company of other criminals he would have stood out as an American and when he was let go, he might have been pointed out and followed and that was what lead to his capture. However, he went there on his own, to help the iraqi people. It was his choice to go there, he wasnt in the military. If anyone is to blame its the guy with the knife and his associates that did this, but he shares some blame in it as well. When the Japanese people that were captured and released and they returned home, they were met with shame from their countrymen. Maybe we should learn a lesson from this. Berg was a nice guy for going there on his own to help these people, but look what happens when we try to do good things.

HBox, thats a very good point! It would give Isreal a good name if they helped out Iraqis and Muslims in general. But Im sure it would ruffle a few turbins.

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[HBox]

HBox, thats a very good point! It would give Isreal a good name if they helped out Iraqis and Muslims in general. But Im sure it would ruffle a few turbins.

I was being sarcastic. The Great Satan and the Zionists invading an Arab country? It would make the current Iraq look like Candyland.

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[A.J.]

Does the French Foreign Legion still exist?

Those guys were pretty hardcore.

I just read an article about it the other day (I can't remember where it was from. The qualifications are pretty rigorous.

Know who else has a pretty decent army? Israel. Asking them would have been a GREAT idea.


I don't think that "Zionists" occupying another Arab country would go over very well.

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[BrianTheBailBondsman]

TARGET DESTROYED IN 30 MINUTES<BR> OR THE NEXT ONES FREE<p>http://www.derrickjensen.com/derrick/images/marines.jpg<p>'NUFF SAID

<center><img src="http://www.proworldinc.com/images/A1/20/A12020A.jpg" width="128" height="100" border="3" alt=""></a></center>

[FMJeff]

Does the French Foreign Legion still exist?

Those guys were pretty hardcore.


http://foto.stud.cz/sb-foto1998gm/gr214.jpg


your right mojo...i just got a secret surveillance photo of thier training sessions....these guys are bad ass...

<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[TheMojoPin]

That guy's got NOTHING on their newest recruit...

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/6305259429.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[reeshy]

Ya know they do have masks on... Anyone ever hear of PROPAGANDA? How do we know it wasnt U.S. military thats behind the masks to draw the attention away from the prison scandle that the 'ing Press should never have made public?


Now, really, Brian!!!!! We are reaching, now, aren't we????????

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[center]

[high fly]

"NICK BERG DIED FOR THE SINS OF GEORGE BUSH AND DONALD RUMSFELD"

---Nick Berg's father.















And oh yes, it looks like we are getting closer to the torture of an American soldier -video that I predicted a year ago.











" and they ask me why I drink"
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Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

This message was edited by high fly on 5-16-04 @ 5:01 AM

[Captain Rooster]

"I like the part where the bad guy pulls the knife out.

make candy
NOT WAR "

First, ban ToxicGarden.

Next, let me clarify an earlier point. I made the comparison between Berg's murder and the picture of some of the Iraqi prisoners with underwear on their heads. I fell this is a valid comparison because it serves to highlight the mentality of the terrorists we are facing--who are now imbedded into the Iraqi populace--and the actions they are willing to take.

The insurgents are terrorists. The insurgents are Syrian, Chechen, Aghnani, Iranian, Iraqi, etc... It is extremely difficult to tease out who is who. Read the Clancy book Shadow Warriors; he captures the Mao Tse Tung tactics these animals take.

They purposely infest a humane population and blend in to grey the lines between civilian and terrorist. This fact leads to innocents being hurt in direct action and with sweeps to find imbedded terrorists.

When this happens, the terrorists can manipulate the facts and make it look like the Americans are just attacking the entire population.

In an asymetrical war, the enemy has not rules we do--that's how they win! We need to find the tactics that will allow use to work outside the box. This takes Special Forces and better intel.

I did not make the comparison to make excuses for the absolute non-soldiers who listened to unlawful orders OR decided to attack the prisoners on their own.

As far as the ignoramous who paints the entire army with a broad brush and asks something to the effect of, do American soldiers get medals for being not as bad as the other guy atrocities., I say try serving your country in a foreign land for a while, then come back and make stupid comments.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

This message was edited by Captain Rooster on 5-16-04 @ 11:53 AM

[Captain Rooster]

Whoa, got off on a tangent there. Back to the comparison, we need to be allowed to stress the enemy. We will not get information with footrubs and candy bars.

We just need to ensure that stress does not become abuse. We also need to do better with ensuring inniocent people are not held without cuase. I know the line is thin, very thin, but the fact is, the terrorists do nor care about what is atrocious, they only care about killing as many Americans as possible.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/TalimanSig.jpg>

[curtoid]

The news that they arrested four men in relation to this adds a new wrinkle to the conspiracy theorists.

Four Arrested (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/iraq_berg_arrests)

If they Iraqi's are correct, then this was not carried out by Al Queda, but rather Saddam loyalists in Iraq. To most Americans there's no difference, but there is a huge difference, and whoever put the graphic at the start of the video wanted to muddy it up even further - if this is true.

On a side note, I made the decision, after talking with Ron on Monday, to see the still images from the video - I still didn't think I was ready to watch the video. The combination of the visual and the audio I still don't want to absorb, at least not yet.

Again, my heart just breaks for his family. It was horrible and monsterous.

I have to wonder, though, about all of the atrocities that happen to people all around the world that we hear about, but don't react because there is not video or stills to make it personal. If this excecution had been done with no documentation, or if he had just been shot in the street, it would have had minor impact on us. Also, if this becomes almost commonplace, at what point do we shut down to it?

I mean, yesterday Israel fired a missle into a crowd and killed 10 people. On the front page of The Washington Post there was a picture of a father holding his young son, who was dead and bloodied. As heartbreaking as it is to see, it's also (sadly) become too commonplace.



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[b][i]Much thanks to M1 for the siggie...!i][b]

[sleepyeyed_Jynx]

Each day the news just seems to get worse and worse and fucking worse. Is this thing winnable??? Seriously - can someone, anyone, give me an excuse why this had to happen???

Hmmm...

Our forces took the guy, and let him go out of custody. They didn't send him back over here, they let him continue to wander around in a place where now both the shi'ites, and the kurds, are trying to get us out of their country. I don't know what moron or morons let him go. They should have just sent him back here, gee...

Jesus - The Source of my Strength!
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<marquee>"The Revolution will not be televised!"</marquee>
WWFallon - The best there ever will be!

[furie]

I don't know what moron or morons let him go. They should have just sent him back here


can't do it against his will. They offered.


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This message was edited by furie on 5-27-04 @ 8:14 PM

[Yerdaddy]

Our forces took the guy, and let him go out of custody.
Iraqi police did, not our forces. I know, they're under our command, but it's not the same. It's obviously shady, but it's still a significant difference, and there are missing pieces of the puzzle in his detention.
They didn't send him back over here
They offered a flight outside of Baghdad but he declined, stating that the route to Kuwait was safer than to the airport.
now both the shi'ites, and the kurds, are trying to get us out of their country.
Some Shiites and not the Kurds.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.