American soldiers shoot up a wedding...again.

[TheMojoPin]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq, killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating. (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=NW_1-T&oldflok=FF-APO-PLS&idq=/ff/story/0001/20040519/1411395606.htm&photoid=20040517BAG17D)

Yeah, THIS is gonna go over well.

Now I'm not going to say mistakes don't happen during wartime....but our guys did this before, in Afghanistan...remember?

The report, based on U.S. military inspections of the scene and interviews with local Afghans, says that at least 34 people were killed and about 50 wounded, fewer than the official Afghan government death toll of 48 dead and 117 wounded. (http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/06/pentagon.wedding.attack/index.html)

The circumstances are almost exactly the same...large gathering of locals, weapons fired into the air...American aircraft take out several dozen people.

How does this mistake happen AGAIN? At best these people were shooting small arms and rifles...

Ugh. Not good for ANYONE.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Tall_James]

Hey...it was a shotgun wedding. We were just protecting ourselves.


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[Yerdaddy]

Afghanistan and Iraq are "Klashnikov cultures"; they're both flooded with small arms leftover from past wars. So the tradition of shooting guns off at weddings is a dangerous situation that I'm sure most local American commanders try to discourage through local leaders. But, in general, communication between the CPA and the Iraqi people is horrible. Maybe the Iraqis were just hard-headed and didn't listen, maybe they had no clue the helicopter was there and would fire on them, but the damage to our image with the Iraqis won't be any less either way. This sucks.

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[FUNKMAN]

How does this mistake happen AGAIN? At best these people were shooting small arms and rifles...


and probably automatic weapons...

It would be nice to know what was the deciding factor for these soldiers to start firing at them... Was it standard procedure to protect themselves? or were they just itching to kill someone? i would think it was procedure...

These kind of customs like shooting weapons into the air during a wedding are something we are just not used to. If someone in the US had a gun, was firing it and refused to put it down, they would most likely be killed by a policeman.






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[reeshy]

At best these people were shooting small arms and rifles...


Small arms and AK-47's have taken down more helicopters than I like to think about. I know...I was a helicopter crewman in the service and I know how fragile these craft really are!!!! The crew was probably (I say "probably" since, obviously, I wasn't there) reacting to training....that is, returning fire when fired upon in a hostile environment, eg Iraq!!!!

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[TheMojoPin]

The crew was probably (I say "probably" since, obviously, I wasn't there) reacting to training....that is, returning fire when fired upon in a hostile environment, eg Iraq!!!!

Sounds to me like they were firing at people firing INTO THE AIR...not fired AT them.

Like I said, mistakes happen, unfortunately...but this is the second time this has happened, and the second time more than FORTY(!) people have ended up dead in almost the EXACT SAME situation as the first incident.

That's a heckuva mistake to happen twice.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

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*This film has not yet been rated.

For the greatest military in the history of the modern world, we're really coming off looking like a bunch of drunken rednecks with missle launchers lately.

I'll not fool myself into thinking we're ever gonna win the hearts and minds of the arab world, but we sure gotta do a lot better than this. Mistakes under fire are one thing, but this is quite another. Shameful!

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[Katylina]

Maybe it's our way of slowing down their population growth. They should have laws similar to the hunting laws we have in our state.


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This message was edited by Katylina on 5-19-04 @ 6:09 PM

[reeshy]

That's a heckuva mistake to happen twice.


So, Mojo, don't beat around the bush...what are you trying to say?????????

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[sleepyeyed_Jynx]

Maybe it's our way of slowing down their population growth. They should have laws similar to the hunting laws we have in our state.


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That was supposed to be funny? Eh...I guess its ok since they're from the "middle east", and every one there are regarded as second class HUMAN BEINGS. So if we were invaded, occupied, and put down when trying to get out country back, we'd be just as heinous and dispicable as the Iraqi citizens, right? I felt I needed to let that out...

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[Captain Rooster]

Mojo, you have NO idea what decisions combat soldiers have to make every second in Iraq. Your true colors are showing, son.



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[TheMojoPin]

That's a heckuva mistake to happen twice.


So, Mojo, don't beat around the bush...what are you trying to say?????????

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That it was a dumbass move, and there's no reason it should have happened TWICE.

I said again and again, the first incident was awful, but mistakes happen...you'd think somebody somewhere would have taken steps to inform the people with the guns what NOT to shoot at. This second incident (And the high body count) seems to indicate that wasn't done. That's inexcusable.

My post below makes what I'm trying to say a little clearer, hopefully. There ARE people at fault here, and I'm NOT hurling all that blame at the soldiers involved.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-19-04 @ 7:47 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo, you have NO idea what decisions combat soldiers have to make every second in Iraq. Your true colors are showing, son.



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Are they? That's pretty unfair. And it's not as if people aren't allowed to criticize specific actions and mistakes of our military, as I'm doing here. The troops get my appreciation and respect off the bat...but that doesn't give them (And especially the higher-ups, at whom most of my frustration is directed at here) a "free pass" for anything that happens down the line. If they did, we wouldn't be the "good guy" that we are.

I think I made it clear why this bugs me. Let me ask you this...after the incident Afghanistan, what steps would have been taken to make our troops aware of what happened, and what to look out for in the future so that they avoid this kind of mistake?

I'm not holding the troops actually engaged in the conflict responsible per se (They're victims themselves of a chain of command that didn't do what it had to do to prevent our troops from being forced to make a mistake like this AGAIN), but they SHOULD have been informed as to what happened before so this was less likely to happen. Avoiding this kind of SNAFU should be a PRIORITY given the kind of operation that our occupation of Iraq is. At what point does this stop being "just a mistake?" The third time? The fourth time? When the bodycount passes 100? 200? At what point does my criticism become "allowed" or justifiable?

My points are relatively simple...this is almost an EXACT duplicate of a pretty horrendous mistake committed by our troops almost two years ago! What steps were taken to keep our troops informed to prevent such an incident from happening again? Well, based on what just happened in Iraq, apparently nothing. The Pentagon just went out of their way to cover their asses, and now innocent Iraqis are dead, and innocent American troops who were not taught better have to suffer that burden.

Please don't assume my anger and criticism over this mess isn't some kneejerk "attack the troops" statement. Please also don't respond with a kneejerk reaction of your own. I don't think I've said anything to deserve it. I hope what I'm trying to say is clearer at this point.

And, I could very easily be wrong...the full facts are pretty mixed up at this point...

Pentagon says it attacked fighters -- not wedding (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html)

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-19-04 @ 7:51 PM

[Captain Rooster]

You show no respect for the troops. Last I checked, referring to a combat decision as "dumbass" is not respect. Tragic is respectful. Your tone is arrogant and weak considering your luxury: reading articles written by journalists from over a thousand miles away.

I sense no respect.

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[Captain Rooster]

And why is it a mistake on our part? People in the AK culture fire automatic weapons into the air in a combat zone and expect to not cause a stir? Hello? Machine guns cause a stir in any human being whether they are American soldiers or Iraqi citizens besieged by insurgents.

People need to realize the delicate situation and the inherrent lack of order when random gunfire erupts.


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[TheMojoPin]

Look Rooster, I've explained what I'm mad about, and what specifically I think is "dumbass" about all this.

If you've made up your mind, fine, I can't change that. I've explained what I'm trying to say. If you don't want to hear it, I can't make you.

The mistake, again, comes from the fact that this is apparently something that happens in the region. We've already witnessed what it leads to before. I'm honestly asking you, because you're in a better position to know, what would be done, if anything, to inform our ground troops after the Afghanistan incident occured, so something like that didn't happen again? It IS a dumbass move on the part of the military higher-ups at the Pentagon if nothing was done to help our troops in the field avoid this from happening AGAIN, and people SHOULD be mad about it.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-19-04 @ 7:57 PM

[Captain Rooster]

And my reaction is not kneejerk. I read an attack on my boys and read your tone with clarity. A dumbass mistake assumes the men were in no danger. You also think you have a clear understanding of the capabilities of the enemies' weapon systems. Those small arms pack a mighty punch. The AK fires the same round as our, America, M60 machine gun--larger than the common .223 carried by our light infantry.



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[Captain Rooster]

So what's your point?

Men react when gunfire erupits and you want them to be able to determine in an instant who is who without any civial casualties; when, all the while, the insurgents fire from civilan crowds daily?

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[sr71blackbird]

I agree Rooster, what were the wedding party thinking firing weapons in the air while a helicopter was in the air? Dont they have any sence at all what would happen? Its like if they were shooting bottle rockets and roman candles in the air. How is the heck is the crew suppose to tell the difference from "friendly" automatic weapon fire and enemy fire from the air?? They have to bear some of the responisbility sometime, dont they? Of course its a regretable incident, but what should we tell them, "Let us know when your having a wedding and planning to fire up into the sky, and we will make sure our helicopter crews will stay clear of the area" ?? Gimme a break.

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[TheMojoPin]

Again, my point (Actually still my question), is why was nothing done to help our troops avoid this mistake for the SECOND time under almost the EXACT SAME circumstances? It's one thing if this is the first time it happened...but if this was indeed a wedding, again, why did NOBODY decide after Afghanistan to try and get some kind of info to the troops to avoid this from happening?

Secondly, we BOTH are arguing under assumption, since neither of us no for sure whether the helicopter was actually fired UPON. If they were hit, then of course, their natural reaction is to respond. But if they weren't being fired AT, it IS different. No, I don't have combat experience, and I'm not going to claim that I have the right answer as to how these guys should have reacted, but if they weren't being fired AT initially, then they went out of their way to attack. As of right now, at least 20 people are confirmed dead. Possibly more than 40. None of our other strikes in Afghanistan or Iraq typically have this kind of singular high casuality rate. How long does it take for 20-40 people on the ground to be killed from one of these helicopters? Why have we only seen this kind of singular casuality rate in bombing raids...and another incident where coincidentally another wedding party was accused of being attacked, and again, where approx. 40 or more people were killed? There are simply too many linking factors for this to be just brushed off as another mistake. If it's another wedding party, it's graduated from being a mistake, and now it's a problem. Just shrugging our shoulders and blaming it only on the local customs is just going to mean it'll happen again. We can't afford to have that with this kind of operation.

Again, how many times does it need to happen for it to no longer be just another mistake? How hard is it for the military commanders to find out what our soldiers can look out for so they can hopefully avoid this from happening for a THIRD time?

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[furie]

How does this mistake happen AGAIN? At best these people were shooting small arms and rifles...



haven't small arms fire and rifles brought a helicopter down before?


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EDIT: I hit "Edit" instead of "Reply." Whoops.

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-19-04 @ 8:20 PM

[TheMojoPin]

I agree Rooster, what were the wedding party thinking firing weapons in the air while a helicopter was in the air? Dont they have any sence at all what would happen? Its like if they were shooting bottle rockets and roman candles in the air. How is the heck is the crew suppose to tell the difference from "friendly" automatic weapon fire and enemy fire from the air?? They have to bear some of the responisbility sometime, dont they? Of course its a regretable incident, but what should we tell them, "Let us know when your having a wedding and planning to fire up into the sky, and we will make sure our helicopter crews will stay clear of the area" ?? Gimme a break.

None of us know when the firing actually started, or if anyone was actually being fired upon.

Some people are saying it wasn't until the helicopter was in the area. Others are saying the celebratory fire was investigated by coalition ground troops, and THEN the airstrike took place later.

And whether the helicopter was fired upon or was investigating already occuring fire IS key.

Nobody is saying mistakes can't happen. But when mistakes THIS big happen twice and on this large a scale, it simply can't be brushed off.

Hopefully it's not as bad as the naysayers (Myself included) are saying. I already posted an article a little while back saying this was a raid based on actionable intelligence, and potential evidence has been found that indicates this was indeed a stockpile/meeting place for insurgents. Like with the WMD's, I do honestly hope I'm wrong.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-19-04 @ 8:59 PM

[Hottub]

You also think you have a clear understanding of the capabilities of the enemies' weapon systems. Those small arms pack a mighty punch. The AK fires the same round as our, America, M60 machine gun--larger than the common .223 carried by our light infantry.


I think Rooster's opinions, knowledge, and experience carry a lot of weight here. Granted, I would like nothing more than to have our Boys and Girls home, but we are committed to this action. There is no turning back.
If I were out in my neighborhood, , and heard the clatter of an AK, you can bet your ass I would be out with all of the firepower I have. Which is fairly substantial.

(Not that I actually use it on a daily basis, but the gun-nuts scare me, and I defend my constitutional right to "Keep and bear arms"... another debate for another thread)

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[TheMojoPin]

How does this mistake happen AGAIN? At best these people were shooting small arms and rifles...



haven't small arms fire and rifles brought a helicopter down before?


<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rf%20sigs/furiefish.jpg" height=100 width=300">


Probably. Contrary to what Rooster said, I don't think I know a lot about ANYONE'S weapons, and my knowledge of weaponry specifics is next to nil. It was a stupid comment on my part.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

I think Rooster's opinions, knowledge, and experience carry a lot of weight here.

Damn right.

I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to somehow "trump" him over this issue. My main point still essentially remains a question, one he can hopefully answer much better than you or I...namely, what could the "brass" have done after the Afghanistan incident to try and attempt to keep something like that from happening again, DID they do anything along these lines (Mostly just informing the troops in the field, or those entering it, about what to look out for), and if not, why not?

This is how things are going to have to be dealt with in this kind of war. Nothing is crystal clear, cut and dry, or black and white.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-19-04 @ 8:26 PM

[Hottub]

Again, my point (Actually still my question), is why was nothing done to help our troops avoid this mistake for the SECOND time under almost the EXACT SAME circumstances? It's one thing if this is the first time it happened...but if this was indeed a wedding, again, why did NOBODY decide after Afghanistan to try and get some kind of info to the troops to avoid this from happening?



I don't know for sure what goes on at the daily briefings for the troops, but I can guess that a schedule of the days weddings is not on the agenda.
Automatic gunfire aimed (allbeit {allegedly} accidentally) aimed at our choppers is not a reason for retaliation??

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[capcity017]

why is it always our fault....dumbasses should know if they shoot at/near us....were gonna shoot back.....has al queada seen the " GODFATHER"?


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[Katylina]

That was supposed to be funny? Eh...I guess its ok since they're from the "middle east", and every one there are regarded as second class HUMAN BEINGS. So if we were invaded, occupied, and put down when trying to get out country back, we'd be just as heinous and dispicable as the Iraqi citizens, right? I felt I needed to let that out...


Wow. You're deep. Do you want to go to yoga class with me? I swear I won't make any looney tunes jokes (well maybe one when we're in Down Dog).

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[TheMojoPin]

Again, my point (Actually still my question), is why was nothing done to help our troops avoid this mistake for the SECOND time under almost the EXACT SAME circumstances? It's one thing if this is the first time it happened...but if this was indeed a wedding, again, why did NOBODY decide after Afghanistan to try and get some kind of info to the troops to avoid this from happening?



I don't know for sure what goes on at the daily briefings for the troops, but I can guess that a schedule of the days weddings is not on the agenda.
Automatic gunfire aimed (allbeit {allegedly} accidentally) aimed at our choppers is not a reason for retaliation??

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"Ahh, Beer. The cause of, and answer to all of life's problems"
Big A.S.S.#22127

Of course they're not going to be detailing specific events. But there's gotta be something different to look out for.

Again, look at the enemy casuality figures in typical insurgent strikes. Approx. 5-10 killed on average. If approx. 40 people are able to be killed (And we don't know the timespan. It may have happened too quickly for anyone to have possibly recognized the mistake), it just seems like something should have been "off."

Quite frankly, I need more details at this point. It sounds like these people were killed INSIDE a building...but if that was the case, who the hell shoots of guns INSIDE a building unless you are trying to hit something up above you while keeping some amount of cover? Other reports make it sound like they were outside...and if they were outside, shouldn't the helicopter crew have been able to tell whether they were actually being fired at? If bullets are flying around you, and seemingly at you, then of course your natural reaction is going to be to return fire. But if you're NOT being fired upon, and instead you're investigating gunfire ELSEWHERE, then there is still time to quickly analyze the situation and make choices. I keep looking for a specific report stating the helicopter was fired upon, or just investigating gunfire, but can't find anything either way. Then again, this whole thing took place at night (Approx. 3 AM), which just makes it even MORE confusing.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

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[Hottub]

Mojo, I am not denying this was an horrific and tragic event. Perhaps people were killed on the inside, however, I strongly doubt the gunfire came from the inside. It was probably a few "rabel rowsers" who had a little bit too much vodka,
(it was 3 in the AM) went to there cars for their automatic weapons
( I know that's where I keep mine)
Elected to celebrate by firing a few rounds into the air...

Get with the program, people. You are currently occupied, have no Govt., and under tight restrictions. With what is going on with the Shiite extremists killing our boys,and car-bombing checkpoints, don't you think it would be a natural reaction to return fire?
Having never been in "the shit", I can only speculate. However, common sense says HELL YES!!

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[TheMojoPin]

Get with the program, people. You are currently occupied, have no Govt., and under tight restrictions. With what is going on with the Shiite extremists killing our boys,and car-bombing checkpoints, don't you think it would be a natural reaction to return fire?

Very true. And I think for the most part in the cities, this is the case. Odds are if someone's shooting, it's to kill someone else, and you don't have to second guess it. What also makes this stick out is that pretty much ALL reports so far say this house/farm/compound/WHATEVER was in "the middle of the desert," away from any other cities or towns.

Of course, that just begs the question...why's there a huge wedding party at 3 AM in the middle of nowhere? And if a helicopter clearly has to go way away from the "usual trouble spots" to get to this place, that just makes the issue of whether or not they were actually fired UPON all the more important.

We just need more details. Did all these people supposedly live out there, or did they come from elsewhere? What IS out there? On the one hand, you've got a strange meeting in the middle of the desert at three in the morning. On the other hand, you've got children and old people killed. What gives?

At this point, there are more questions than answers, unfortunately.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-19-04 @ 8:57 PM

[sr71blackbird]

I dont think we are attacking you mojo, I hope it doesnt come across like that, I guess the responses were more along the line of how could a crew of guys flying around tell the difference between real and celebratory gunfire.

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[Katylina]

I heard it was a blast!


OK you can definately come to yoga class.

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[TheMojoPin]

I dont think we are attacking you mojo, I hope it doesnt come across like that, I guess the responses were more along the line of how could a crew of guys flying around tell the difference between real and celebratory gunfire.

Fair enough. And I wasn't going after anyone here, nor the troops involved. I've made it very clear who the "dumbasses" are that I'm pissed off at here.

Now, let's make this even more confusing. The strike is now said to have been "near the Syrian border," and a helicopter was NOT involved, but an AC-130 Warship, so we were ALL wrong up until this point. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5013551/)

Arab television identified the scene of the attack as the village of Makr al-Deeb. The U.S.-led coalition in Baghdad issued a statement indicating that an attack occurred in the same general area, about 50 miles southwest of Husaybah and 15 miles from the Syrian border.

The area is a desolate region populated only by shepherds. It is also popular with smugglers, and the U.S. military suspects that militants use it as a route to slip in from Syria to fight the Americans. Consequently, it is under constant surveillance by U.S. forces.

So it does sound more and more suspect...but then at the same time...

Most of the bodies on the APTN videotape were wrapped in blankets and other cloths, but the footage showed at least eight uncovered, bloody bodies, several of them children. One of the children was headless.

...but then...

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, told NBC News that coalition forces in the vicinity saw no signs of a wedding when they called in the air attack.

"I know the pictures are compelling, but they don't mesh with what we saw on the ground," he said.

Where'd the footage come from?

Were there two seperate strikes?

WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?!?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-19-04 @ 9:18 PM

[furie]

how does that sound more suspect? All that means the area is under more than usual scrutiny from the air.


<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rf%20sigs/furiefish.jpg" height=100 width=300">

[Heavy]

Again, my point (Actually still my question), is why was nothing done to help our troops avoid this mistake for the SECOND time under almost the EXACT SAME circumstances?


Mojo, youre lost. The mistake is on the party -goers, not us. i didnt read the last 8 or so posts because the yankee games starting soon,so If I repeat something, for the love of God, forgive me. you're in a combat zone. you have weapons and aumunition. Right there youre asking to be busted up. And killed. Now you take those weapons and fire them. Now youre really asking to be shot. Add in the fact that you fire them in the air while theres (or even if there isnt) a combat equiped chopper up there and you might as well shoot each other.

Now as far as schooling the pilots on not making this mistake again: What exactly can be done? When you have a pregnant lady walk up to a check point and blow up a few of your buddies maybe you wont think a bunch of people firing in your general direction is such a non-threat. Another thing is what a waste of time it would be be to try an edjucate pilots to the difference of a wedding party firing for fun and a wedding party firing in an attempt to bring you down. I agree pilots should be instructed to use telepaphy to learn the true intentions of people on the ground firiing weapons into the air, and also to look into the future to see if theyre in danger BEFORE defending themselves.

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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
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[Heavy]

After reading the last few posts, my point is still valid. You just have to read them a few hours ago before the new news came out

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A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
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[IrishAlkey]

DON'T QUESTION THE MILITARY!131!@#$!@#

AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHH!

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[TheMojoPin]

how does that sound more suspect? All that means the area is under more than usual scrutiny from the air.


<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rf%20sigs/furiefish.jpg" height=100 width=300">


Are you thinking it makes the coalition forces "more suspect?" Because I referring to this "wedding party" and the people there. The location and timing makes them, to me, the ones who are more suspect at this point.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-19-04 @ 11:35 PM

[FUNKMAN]

'til death do us part'


bride and groom are in heaven saying 'damn that was quick'...

<img src="http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/guests/fm_sig.jpg">

[TheMojoPin]

I agree pilots should be instructed to use telepaphy to learn the true intentions of people on the ground firiing weapons into the air, and also to look into the future to see if theyre in danger BEFORE defending themselves.

Hardy-har, Wadd. I never implied ANY of that, and you know it, Mr. Strawman.

We're so quick to toss out how advanced our military is, our how capable our intelligence resources are...and you're telling me there's NO way to tell the difference between a wedding party and a bunch of insurgents starting some shit? If this was a pre-planned, pre-scouted raid, as it's being implied at this point, this is even more of an issue.

The key is still whether or not the aircraft was fired upon. If it wasn't, then this is clearly an unfortunate accident, but the blame rests more with the coalition soldiers. That's not saying the civilians aren't at fault for doing something so monumentally stupid...but if they were just "firing into the air" away from the aircraft and the aircraft was not actually being fired UPON. then choices were made that led to a big mistake. You can't get around that. It's not a judgement or attack...that's just how it might have gone down. If the people on the ground were actually shooting at the aircraft, then the response of the aircraft is justified. If the people on the ground weren't firing at the aircraft, but still were inadvertantly firing at it (Again, I don't know what kind of "gunship" this was...is it a plane? If it's a plane, it makes a little more sense why these people might have done something as dumb as firing into the air and thinking they weren't shooting at anything...a plane is lot less noticeable than a helicopter if it's flying high enough) and even hitting it, then of course it's understandable why the aircraft's crew returned fire, and nobody is going to blatantly condemn them for that...and nobody has thus far.

The key is still whether or not the aircraft was actually fired upon...and especially whether this operation was pre-planned. But please, continue to spin away into ridiculous issues and scenarios nobody's suggesting, and continue ignoring the fact that if this WAS just a wedding party we've now made this mistake twice in almost identical situations, and that nobody not bothered by this has attempted to answer my question of, "how many times of this happening is OK?"

A mistake is a mistake...but that doesn't mean nobody can't attempt to avoid making the same mistake in the future. I don't know why that thinking is considered ridiculous and next to impossible.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-19-04 @ 11:37 PM

[Gmann]

FUNKMAN made me laugh so hard the soda came up my nose

[blakjeezis]

Well, here are my thoughts, for what they're worth (+/- $3, depending on the exchange rate). In order to ask how many times this is gonna happen for it not to be considered an accident, a little logic and statistics has to come into play. I know, I know. Every innocent life is sacred, we have to have compassion. Well, this may be cold, but this is also war. If we all, and I think we can, agree that shooting a gun in a war zone is a stupid thing to do especially when armies are patrolling and you could very easily be mistaken for an enemy and shot dead. You then have to measure how many occurences there are of innocent wedding-goers shooting guns into the air being killed, 2 for those not paying attention, against how many total innocent wedding goers shooting in the air haven't been killed, right? This is something we can never know, but it's probably a lot more than 2. Even if it's 1 wedding a day, a number that doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, since we invaded Afghanistan, that's a lot less than a 1% casualty rate. If you do it by guests instead of just weddings, the percentage is even smaller. I gotta say for people basically randomly firing off guns in a warzone, those are pretty good odds. Probably better than driving a car.

My second point is that the time it takes to determine whether or not, and let me just say this, THE PEOPLE SHOOTING GUNS IN THE AIR IN THE MIDDLE OF A COMBAT ZONE are shooting at you or just celebrating their nuptuals, could very well be just enough time for some gunmen to take down your chopper.

Or think of it this way. What, do you suppose, would be the response to this headline - US HELICOPTER ACCIDENTALLY SHOT DOWN BY WEDDING CELEBRANTS -?

Edit: Actually, in keeping with the spirit of the thread title and objectivity, I'll change that - US CHOPPER SHOT DOWN BY WEDDING CELEBRANTS

Obviously this was an error. But in this situation, I am much more in favor of our boys erring on this side than the alternative.



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If I were any better, I'd have to be twins!!
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I'm Rick James, bitch!

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-20-04 @ 12:28 AM

[CaptClown]

The key is still whether or not the aircraft was actually fired upon...and especially whether this operation was pre-planned. But please, continue to spin away into ridiculous issues and scenarios nobody's suggesting, and continue ignoring the fact that if this WAS just a wedding party we've now made this mistake twice in almost identical situations, and that nobody not bothered by this has attempted to answer my question of, "how many times of this happening is OK?"

A mistake is a mistake...but that doesn't mean nobody can't attempt to avoid making the same mistake in the future. I don't know why that thinking is considered ridiculous and next to impossible.


I am not here to pick on you. So I will drop my 2 cents and keep rolling. It is reasonable to assume the reaction to seeing a muzzle flash from a weapon or weapons that isn't in the hands of an ally, would be to fire.

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army
Poison Clan rocks the world

[whoopsy]

The mistake is on the party -goers, not us. i didnt read the last 8 or so posts because the yankee games starting soon,so If I repeat something, for the love of God, forgive me. you're in a combat zone. you have weapons and aumunition. Right there youre asking to be busted up. And killed. Now you take those weapons and fire them. Now youre really asking to be shot.


i'm gonna hafta disagree. If the chopper was under attack, that's one thing, if it was indeed just some drunks poppin off rounds into the air, seeing as how this isn't uncommon (and we've already fucked it up once before), can't see how killing 42-45 people, including 15 children, 10 women by lobbing dozens of bombs can be considered justified.

[TheMojoPin]

Every innocent life is sacred, we have to have compassion.

That's a bit extreme, but alright.

Well, this may be cold, but this is also war.

Nobody's said anything to the contrary.

You have to measure how many occurences there are of innocent wedding-goers shooting guns into the air being killed, 2 for those not paying attention, against how many total innocent wedding goers shooting in the air haven't been killed, right?

That's a pretty selective way of looking at this. Along those lines, what are the odds coalition troops would do this twice thus far in this short a period of time?

I gotta say for people basically randomly firing off guns in a warzone, those are pretty good odds.

Maybe. But that's also approaching this as if these civilian casualities are somehow seperate from OTHER civilian casualities.

Like I said, it IS pretty dumb to be shooting guns into the air at a wedding party, warzone or not. But if they weren't shooting at the aircraft, and the aircraft was only responding to the site/sound/report of gunfire, again, the aircraft crew made a choice. If they had been properly informed of various factors they MIGHT have made a different choice. Emphasis on the "might." A choice is a choice. My concern is that these crews aren't getting all the information they need.

The key is finding out whether or not they were actually fired upon (On purpose or by accident really doesn't matter...like it's been said, taking fire is taking fire...you need to react). Until we can know that for sure, we're all pretty much shooting in the dark here...horrible pun not intended.

In the end, I'm just baffled by people who want to shrug this off. We HAVE to be fighting a "careful" war here, as oxymoronic and ridiculous as that sounds. This is the exact opposite of that. Of course, this sentiment is based SOLELY on the idea that these guys weren't actually fired upon. If they were, all of what I've said is pretty much moot, and I'll be the first to admit that.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

It is reasonable to assume the reaction to seeing a muzzle flash from a weapon or weapons that isn't in the hands of an ally, would be to fire.

First of all, can ANYONE explain to me what the hell the coalition troops were flying in?

Is it a low-level plane? Would it have been in immediate and critical danger from automatic/rifle/smallarms weapon-fire from people on the ground?

We're not talking about soldiers on the ground here. This was a (I'm assuming) plane that had a little more liberty in its decision to attack. If someone can explain how much danger this plane would have been in from people firing guns on the ground, my views on this could be a LOT different. And for the bajillionth time, the issue HAS to be whether or not the the aircraft was actually fired upon. If our forces were only shooting and bombing based on "muzzle flashes" and not on who's shooting at what and where, I think we'd have a LOT more incidents like this. In fact, why does it seem like I'm the one actually trying to protray the troops as NOT being triggerhappy?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[blakjeezis]

Every innocent life is sacred, we have to have compassion.

That's a bit extreme, but alright.

Just trying to head the hippies off at the pass.




what are the odds coalition troops would do this twice thus far in this short a period of time?

Exactly the same, funnily enough.


I don't know, man, I just don't see the blame falling on the military here. If civilians are gonna shoot in the air, these types of things are gonna happen, especially when the opposing "army" doesn't wear uniforms and uses terrorist tactics. It won't be long before the opposition is holding pretend weddings and opening fire on our boys. This is really a topic for another thread, but it is a messy, messy war. Shit like this is gonna happen. I can say no more.

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This message was edited by blakjeezis on 5-20-04 @ 12:47 AM

[TheMojoPin]

I don't know, man, I just don't see the blame falling on the military here.

Nor do I...well, not that broadly. I'm not blaming the troops on the ground (Or in this case, the air). The troops are there to follow orders and do as their told. Their actions directly reflect how well they've been briefed and information has been passed down to them. Was the incident in Afghanistan something that was gone over with the flight crews? Was the situation broken down and analyzed? Was it determined that ANYTHING could have been done to avoid what happened, and could it be avoided in the future? If all of that happened in some form, was that information passed on and emphasized with the troops? We're almost two years on since the incident in Afghanistan...did anyone even attempt to do anything that even resembled what I just listed?

I know I'm woefully naive when it comes to this stuff, but I GOTTA think there are some key difference between identifying something like, say, a wedding party, and an insurgent strike force...guns or no guns. I'll be the first to admit that maybe I'm totally wrong and there isn't. Add to that the possibility that the coalition forces were actually fired upon (Intentionally or not), and I could very easily have just been talking out my ass the entire time.

If civilians are gonna shoot in the air, these types of things are gonna happen, especially when the opposing "army" doesn't wear uniforms and uses terrorist tactics.

Very true. Which is what I was getting at in earlier posts...coalition forces have to fight this war in "different" ways...one, because we're trying to "inspire and sway" the people. Two, because of what you just said. We can't just bomb the piss out of things because this is what happens. We're trying to fight a mouse with the Space Shuttle, basically.

It won't be long before the opposition is holding pretend weddings and opening fire on our boys.

In a saner world, this would be a ridiculous statement. Unfortunately, it's all too likely.

I don't know, in a roundabout way, I think we're agreeing on the same larger points.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

I know I'm yammering on a lot in this thread. Just something about this incident really bothered me...right down to the core.

I can't really put my finger on it...but it just seemed to sum up my feelings on this entire Iraq situation. Contrary to a lot of my "doom 'n' gloom" compatriots, I did think, and still do, that we CAN do a lot of good over there, and this whole mess could be ultimately turned around and made into something great in terms of US/Middle East relations, despite my objections to the timing and "official" reasoning behind the invasion.

This particular incident just sums up the frustration...we WANT to do good, we TRY to do good, but every "bad" thing that happens is just SO much worse because of the delicate situation. It's in such contrast t the prison abuse scandal...there you can point to the people responsible and be like, "hey, jerks...what the fuck?!?" With this it was just people trying to do the right thing, and quite possibly just thinking they were defending themselves, and it still goes wrong.

It's almost impossible to describe the feelings this incident has raised in me, but basically, if I could sum up the war (As perceived by me) into one physical manifestation, this is it.

Nobody doing anything "wrong," but it still goes that way anyway.

Gaaaaaaaaaah.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Ah-HAH!

Found some appropriate info pertaining to the gunship.

These things are brutal...can get in close and tight with devastating firepower, but also get as high as 25,000-30,000 feet.

They CAN, however...

Although regarded as a highly successful machine - used most recently in support of operations in Panama, Grenada, the Gulf War and Bosnia - its slowness and typical low operating altitude make it vulnerable to ground fire.

...so I'm assuming this means these things are vulnerable to the kind of firepower the people at the wedding party would be packing...so the crew would definitely have a reason to fire back ASAP if they thought they were being fired upon, as opposed to just trying to get out of the line of fire. Maybe somebody else is a little more up on these things, and knows for sure how likely it is people with a bunch of machine guns/rifles/sidearms could take down one of the coalitions gunships.

Profile: AC-130 gunship (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1602000.stm)

And since this is a plane with high altitude capability, it could explain why these numbskulls on the ground are just shooting off into the air thinking nothing's around.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

Mojo never admits when he's wrong. NEVER.

Proof (http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/CurrentPage/1/forum/87/Topic/32257/RequestTimeout/500)

http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=JohneeWadd
A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[TheMojoPin]

Oh, you hush. That thread is my crowning glory.

And, courtesy of Mr. Wadd, here's video of the AC-130 in action in Afghanistan. I remember this video made the 'net rounds at least a year ago, but it's still pretty impressive to watch.

Note how the gunners go out of their way to not hit the mosque.

AC-130 gunship does what it does. (http://litterbox.zawodny.com/~jzawodn/tmp/AC130_GunshipMed.wmv)

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

Mojo, cut it out. Seriously, I'm not interested. How many times must i tell you!!! Now, I'm outting you. Here for everybody is what Mojo just E-mailed me trying to get a date.

dont open at work (http://www.webqueeries.com/gay-men/gay-queeries-05.jpg)

http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=JohneeWadd
A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[TheMojoPin]

You can do it.

Put yo' ass into it.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

The most important point here is not who's fault this was. Abu Ghraib lost us the benefit of the doubt. We will be blamed within Iraq by too many people simply because we have lost their trust. This is a political and psychological war, and there is no choice but to win hearts and minds. So the military has to do everything it can to avoid these incidents. If this turns out not to be a wedding being shot up then the military needs to make the case for that very strongly to the Iraqis. If it was a wedding, (certainly there are dead children), then the US needs to account for it and make whatever reparations to the victims.

I'm sick of our biggest casualty being our foot in Iraq. We have about 1/3 the troops we need in Iraq, and this kind of shit, and Abu Ghraib are compounded by that fact, and I'm fucking sick of the scumbags running this war.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[FMJeff]

Regardless of what actually happened, this will be used an excuse to portray us as butchers and conquerers.



<center><img src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[Se7en]

Update - credit BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3730423.stm)

Initial reports suggested that a wedding party near the Syrian border was the target of a US air strike.

A US military spokesman confirmed that about 40 people had been killed in the area - but said US forces had targeted a safe house used by foreign fighters.

He said coalition forces had retaliated after coming under attack.

The incident occurred late on Tuesday at the village of Makr al-Deeb, near the border town of Qaim.

"We took hostile fire and we returned fire," said Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the US military in Iraq.

He said there were no indications that the victims of the attack were part of a wedding party.

He added that a large amount of money, Syrian passports and satellite communications equipment had been found at the site of the attack.

Even if this was just a wedding party?

I wouldn't place an ounce of blame on the military.

Because, bottom line:

Don't. Fire. Weapons. In. A. War. Zone.

It's really not that complicated.

This is a tragedy, but you've gotta be a little smarter than to start rattling off shots with an automatic rifle in the middle of a fucking war zone. Come on, people.

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<br>
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I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>

[TheMojoPin]

Can we PLEASE stop using the term "war zone" as if it somehow implies that there's somewhere in Iraq that ISN'T a fucking war zone?!?

Now, back on track...here's a quote that makes ya think...

"How many people go to the middle of the desert 10 miles from the Syrian border to hold a wedding 80 miles from the nearest civilization?" Maj. Gen. James Mattis, commander of the 1st Marine Division, told reporters in Fallujah. "These were more than two dozen military-age males. Let's not be naive."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5013551/

And here's something from the same article that's just stupid on at least a thousand different levels...

"This morning a Spanish convoy in the process of withdrawing and on its way to Kuwait suffered an ambush by Iraqi insurgents 30 miles south of Diwaniyah. The insurgents were repelled," the spokesman said.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-20-04 @ 4:07 PM

[Yerdaddy]

"This morning a Spanish convoy in the process of withdrawing and on its way to Kuwait suffered an ambush by Iraqi insurgents 30 miles south of Diwaniyah. The insurgents were repelled," the spokesman said.

"Hey, those poor Spanish soldiers are leaving the party and are probably going back to training for a war they'll probably never see. Let's give em one last chance to kill some people. C'mon guys!"

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[TheMojoPin]

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[CaptClown]

Very true. Which is what I was getting at in earlier posts...coalition forces have to fight this war in "different" ways...one, because we're trying to "inspire and sway" the people. Two, because of what you just said. We can't just bomb the piss out of things because this is what happens. We're trying to fight a mouse with the Space Shuttle, basically.

They are saving that for the next war. I believe Raytheon is working on something of the sort.

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army
Poison Clan rocks the world

[Captain Rooster]

I love Americans who speak with sound and fury--signifying nothing.

Catch the allusion?

I caught the attck on Wadd. The guy understands the military, he understands the tough spot soldiers away from home are in, he is attacked for capturing the truth about soldiers at war and then attacked for being ignorant.

Sound and fury, Mojo.

Remember the Lion character?


<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosterlightening33.gif>

[Captain Rooster]

Scenario:

It's 0300; a light infantry squad (12 men) is moving along the Syrian border when gunfire erupts. The men move to observe the situation through night-vision goggles. Tracer fire is seen firing into the air; a large crowd is gathered. The unit is on a roving, movement to contact patrol; what do they do?

Do they walk up to the crowd of Iraqi's firing weapons into the air and try to win their hearts and minds, or do they call in Spectre (AC130) and ensure all the boys get back to base to catch some rack before their next patrol in 125 degree heat.

I say they call in Spectre and call it a night. Some Americans who can cuddle up under flannel sheets and by a cable connection say they should have some omnipotent ability to control the horrific situation they are in.

I say they do their best and live to come home. They is no clarity through fog and filthy air.

Period.


<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosterlightening33.gif>

[TheMojoPin]

I believe Raytheon is working on something of the sort.

Those damn crafty CIA contractors.

I caught the attck on Wadd. The guy understands the military, he understands the tough spot soldiers away from home are in, he is attacked for capturing the truth about soldiers at war and then attacked for being ignorant.

I did nothing even close to attacking him or calling him ignorant.

This is exactly what my response to him was:

Hardy-har, Wadd. I never implied ANY of that, and you know it, Mr. Strawman.

I called him out on using a strawman tactic of making it sound like I expect soldiers to be telepathic. Nowhere did I attack HIM, or even attack what he said. The rest of our exchange was us busting each other's chops over man-ass and an old thread about the JFK assassination. There was no "attacking" anywhere, and I don't really appreciate the assertion since I've gone out of my way to be diplomatic throughout this entire thread, something which is an EXTREME rarity in this forum.

I say they call in Spectre and call it a night. Some Americans who can cuddle up under flannel sheets and by a cable connection say they should have some omnipotent ability to control the horrific situation they are in.

I've gone almost this entire thread saying I could be wrong, and then posting articles and links that basically have all but definitively proven me to be just that. I already have said I started this thread moments after this story broke and it had my emotions running really high. I have the right to be pissed and shocked at what AT THE TIME was being presented as a direct repeat of an earlier horrendous SNAFU that left several dozen civilians dead. I then went on from there to follow up the story, and show where I had been wrong or had jumped the gun.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 5-21-04 @ 12:28 AM

[monsterone]

Update - credit BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3730423.stm)

Initial reports suggested that a wedding party near the Syrian border was the target of a US air strike.

A US military spokesman confirmed that about 40 people had been killed in the area - but said US forces had targeted a safe house used by foreign fighters.

He said coalition forces had retaliated after coming under attack.

The incident occurred late on Tuesday at the village of Makr al-Deeb, near the border town of Qaim.

"We took hostile fire and we returned fire," said Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the US military in Iraq.

He said there were no indications that the victims of the attack were part of a wedding party.

He added that a large amount of money, Syrian passports and satellite communications equipment had been found at the site of the attack.

Even if this was just a wedding party?

I wouldn't place an ounce of blame on the military.

Because, bottom line:

<font size="6">Don't. Fire. Weapons. In. A. War. Zone.</font>

It's really not that complicated.

This is a tragedy, but you've gotta be a little smarter than to start rattling off shots with an automatic rifle in the middle of a fucking war zone. Come on, people.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/7_sig.gif" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos.
I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>





well put.



and what ever happened to throwing rice?

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="blue" size="1"> i see all these niggas in these videos and i wonder, if they're individually pussy and their safety is in numbers </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

[TheMojoPin]

Dude, it kills birds.

And that's just uncivilized.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[monsterone]

so i guess you rather blow bubbles at a wedding.













::hack::by the way, he's back in town and wants your number.::hack::


<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="blue" size="1"> i see all these niggas in these videos and i wonder, if they're individually pussy and their safety is in numbers </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

[TheMojoPin]

I say throw pies or nothing at all.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[monsterone]

unless they're filled with bacon, i'm not down. man would they hate that!

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="blue" size="1"> i see all these niggas in these videos and i wonder, if they're individually pussy and their safety is in numbers </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

[TheMojoPin]

Why, are they kosher Iraqis?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[monsterone]

swine is a filthy beast, so they believe. if you wanted to offend jews i guess you'd thrown cheeseburgers.

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="blue" size="1"> i see all these niggas in these videos and i wonder, if they're individually pussy and their safety is in numbers </font>


<font color="white">moe & horde king, come back soon</font>


</center>
[color=White]

[TheMojoPin]

I think you're backwards!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

so i guess you rather blow bubbles at a wedding.
http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/mjbubbles.jpg Be like Mike!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[furie]

Dude, it kills birds.

And that's just uncivilized.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

no it doesn't (http://www.snopes.com/weddings/horrors/birdrice.htm)


<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rf%20sigs/furiefish.jpg" height=100 width=300">

[TheMojoPin]

SO MANY LIES TO A CHILD!!!

WHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYY?!?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Dozens of people killed in a U.S. attack in the Iraqi desert Wednesday were attending a high-level meeting of foreign fighters, not a wedding, and photos shown to reporters in Baghdad support that belief, according to the senior coalition military spokesman. (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/22/iraq.main/index.html)

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[A.J.]

Kimmitt said while the location was purported to be a sheep ranch, there was no evidence of ranching activities and no livestock.


The same could be said of "The Bunny Ranch" in Nevada.

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AJinDC-Sig.jpg>

A Skidmark/canofsoup15 production.

Red Sox Nation

[furie]

i love people who jump to conclusions


<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rf%20sigs/furiefish.jpg" height=100 width=300">

[TheMojoPin]

I really should make a game out of it.

Some kind of mat that goes on the floor...yeah...

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Heavy]

This is almost as bad as Mojos other thread

http://www.uncp.edu/library/instruction/images/truman.jpg

http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=JohneeWadd
A proportionate amount of props are equally distributed to my nigga's Fluff, Alexxis, CanOfSoup15, WWFallon and Katylina
HORDE KING FOREVER!!!
ORACLE NEVER!!!

[furie]

I really should make a game out of it.

Some kind of mat that goes on the floor...yeah...

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

that's the worst idea i've ever heard.


<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rf%20sigs/furiefish.jpg" height=100 width=300">

[Captain Rooster]

Our boys are morally correct and mentally awake. Good work, men.

BTW, I got a sat-phone call from one of my boys today and he was caught in a motar strike ten seconds into the call. He said he misses home--and was ambushed last week. The guy is not an animal killer...He's an American trying to keep citizens here from ever having to pick-up weapons to defend themselves ever again.


I knew the boys were righteous in their call.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosterlightening33.gif>

This message was edited by Captain Rooster on 5-22-04 @ 10:39 PM

[TheMojoPin]

Wadd, I learned how to be inaccurate from the master..."I LEARNED IT FROM YOU!!!"

On a serious note, I just got back from dinner and drinks with a longtime friend of mine who's leaving for Baghdad on Monday to work over there for the next year setting up the new American embassy. I love this guy with all my heart, and I'm downright terrified that he's going to be working at what's essentially ground zero for all those terrorist assholes running around there now, so if any of you out there can just keep him in your thoughts, your hearts and in your prayers, even just for a bit, I'd appreciate it.

Godspeed Matt.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[A.J.]

so if any of you out there can just keep him in your thoughts, your hearts and in your prayers, even just for a bit, I'd appreciate it.

Done and done.

I know a few people who are already there or are en route -- so I know how you feel.

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AJinDC-Sig.jpg>

A Skidmark/canofsoup15 production.

Red Sox Nation

[Doomstone]

AP Exclusive: Video Film of Wedding Party Captures Revelers Dancing, Singing (http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBL36ONLUD.html)



RAMADI, Iraq (AP) - The bride arrives in a white pickup truck and is quickly ushered into a house by a group of women. Outside, men recline on brightly colored silk pillows, relaxing on the carpeted floor of a large goat-hair tent as boys dance to tribal songs.
The videotape obtained Sunday by Associated Press Television News captures a wedding party that survivors say was later attacked by U.S. planes early Wednesday, killing up to 45 people. The dead included the cameraman, Yasser Shawkat Abdullah, hired to record the festivities, which ended Tuesday night before the planes struck.

The U.S. military says it is investigating the attack, which took place in the village of Mogr el-Deeb about five miles from the Syrian border, but that all evidence so far indicates the target was a safehouse for foreign fighters.

"There was no evidence of a wedding: no decorations, no musical instruments found, no large quantities of food or leftover servings one would expect from a wedding celebration," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Saturday. "There may have been some kind of celebration. Bad people have celebrations, too."

But video that APTN shot a day after the attack shows fragments of musical instruments, pots and pans and brightly colored beddings used for celebrations, scattered around the bombed out tent.

The wedding videotape shows a dozen white pickup trucks speeding through the desert escorting the bridal car - decorated with colorful ribbons. The bride wears a Western-style white bridal dress and veil. The camera captures her stepping out of the car but does not show a close-up.

An AP reporter and photographer, who interviewed more than a dozen survivors a day after the bombing, were able to identify many of them on the wedding party video - which runs for several hours.

...

Kimmitt said U.S. troops who swept through the area found rifles, machine guns, foreign passports, bedding, syringes and other items that suggested the site was used by foreigners infiltrating from Syria.

The videotape showed no weapons, although they are common among rural Iraqis.

Kimmitt has denied finding evidence that any children died in the raid although a "handful of women" - perhaps four to six - were "caught up in the engagement."

"They may have died from some of the fire that came from the aircraft," he told reporters Friday.

However, an AP reporter obtained names of at least 10 children who relatives said had died. Bodies of five of them were filmed by APTN when the survivors took them to Ramadi for burial Wednesday. Iraqi officials said at least 13 children were killed.

Four days after the attack, the memories of the survivors remain painful - as are their injuries.

Haleema Shihab, 32, one of the three wives of Rikad Nayef, said that as the first bombs fell, she grabbed her seven-month old son, Yousef, and clutching the hands of her five-year-old son, Hamza, started running. Her 15-year-old son, Ali, sprinted alongside her. They managed to run for several yards when she fell - her leg fractured.

"Hamza was yelling, 'mommy,'" Shihab, recalled. "Ali said he was hurt and that he was bleeding. That's the last time I heard him." Then another shell fell and injured Shihab's left arm.






i love people who jump to conclusions



<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/banner_freedom.jpg">
</center>

[furie]

ok, so the AP has a video of an Iraqi wedding. Is the bombing showed in the video?


<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rf%20sigs/furiefish.jpg" height=100 width=300">

[Mike Teacher]

i love people who jump to conclusions


http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/mat

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/newsig">

[sleepyeyed_Jynx]

We shouldn't have been there in the first place. They are using OUR tax dollars to send OUR boys and girls over there to die for WMD's that hasn't been seen. Powell and his cronie (can't remember his name, check BBC for it all) admitted that the "mobile wmd program" taht they presented to the U.N. was only them ASSUMING as they saw trucks. Hmmm...so if I look in your backyard and see a shovel, should I ASSUME you're a mass murderer who just burried his latest victims?

We've been through this all before. Papa Bush was a part of the administration that backed Saddam, and provided and sold him weapons and military vehicles. WE vetoed a U.N. resolution AGAINST Iraq in the 80's (Check the U.N.'s website). When Saddam gassed the population of his country that did not favor US, WE turned a blind eye. WE also hit Iraq with a number of sanctions after the first Gulf War that pushed their economy further down after all the damages of the conflict. And now WE accuse Saddam of all the things, WE were one way or the other just as responsible for, and invade his country for INVISIBLE WMDS. Not to mention our troops morale has hit the toilet. They want to come home, they're acting up and harrasing the Iraqi people, and THEY'RE in a hostile enviornment with people that just want to get their country back. Dammit, lie and say I don't support my troops. I have a cousin, and so many friends over there it's not funny. My buddy Maverick wasn't getting food because of security reasons. I hope the stuff his mom mailed over there can hopefully make its way to him. I support my troops, I also scold them when they're doing things they need not do, and I'll also say they shouldn't have been sent there in the first place. If anything, I'm at most a patriot when I want to see that my country does things RIGHT. Bush is a friggin crook. Point blank. I will not support an administration that's sucking my country dry, and sending us over to die for their own personal benefit. Nor will I feel that I need to be quiet to those who say I'm not supporting the troops when I am by the best way possible which is calling for all of our boys and girls to come back.



Jesus - The Source of my Strength!
<IMG SRC="http://home.comcast.net/~rmfallon/RFnetsleepyeyed_Jynx2.jpg">
<marquee>"The Revolution will not be televised!"</marquee>
WWFallon - The best there ever will be!

[furie]

When Saddam gassed the population of his country that did not favor US, WE turned a blind eye.


No, they did favor the US. That's why they were gassed. We promised to support the Kurds and anyone else who wanted to rise up against Saddam, then we didn't follow through with the support when they needed us.


<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/furie1335/.Pictures/rf%20sigs/gaycock.jpg" height=100 width=300">

[Yerdaddy]

Saddam gassed the Kurds in the Anfal campaign against them in, mainly, '87 and '88. The Kurds were rebelling agianst Saddam as they always had, and were looking for help from Iran at the time (one of the two major groups anyway). And we did continue diplomatic, military and economic support for Iraq well after the gassing of the Kurds.

The US didn't begin to support the Kurds until after the '91 Gulf War because they were under the no-fly zone and could be usefull in containing and possibly overthrowing Saddam.

The Iraqis that were encouraged to rise up during the Gulf War were, mainly, the Shiia, and they were slaughtered.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[melville]

well, they just forgot to invite us...
so we sent our presents airmail!
haha!
since they don't have fedex down there we used
f.u.! haha...
(I gotta million of 'em)
don't get me wrong, got nuthin' against Arabs,
but Bush has got it right, nobody, and that means nobody, ever, f's with the u.s.a. - it's real simple for anybody who's having a hard time understanding it. I don't think that makes us bad people...

yippiekaiyay mfrs

[CaptClown]

Furie does bring up an excellent point. While we're at it, can we see some gun camera footage too?

[Had to edit because I fat fingered gun/gin camera]

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army
Poison Clan rocks the world

This message was edited by CaptClown on 5-25-04 @ 5:41 PM

[TheMojoPin]

What, about the Kurds? I think yerdaddy made the "better" point.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[CaptClown]

What, about the Kurds? I think yerdaddy made the "better" point.

It is an excellent point. Now I have a question or two about that. Were they trying to unite with the Turkish Kurds or did they just want to be free from Saddam? Or was the gassing motivated by Arabs wanting to expand into traditional Kurdish land?

Director of the C.Y.A. Society.
Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army
Poison Clan rocks the world

This message was edited by CaptClown on 5-25-04 @ 8:02 PM

[Yerdaddy]

This is off the top of my head, so if it's messy, tough titties.

The Kurds had been rebelling off and on against the central government in Iraq since it's creation in the 1920s. The Kurds were seeking autonomy within Kurdish Iraq, and the regimes in Baghdad to maintain control over the oil-rich Kurdish areas, especially the fields around Kurkuk. The Anfal campain that peaked in 1988 was Saddam's army, especially under the leadership of "Chemical Ali" (I forget his real name), took the end of the war with Iran as an opportunity to destroy the Kurds once and for all. They leveled thousands of villages, butchered tens of thousands, and used combinations of mustard gas and sarin on some villages, most famously Halabja.

The Kurds of Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey were not homogenous, and the Iraqi and Turkish governments, especially, have been able to play the various Kurdish groups against each other. Off the top of my head, I don't know that there was any cooperation at the time of Afal between Iraqi and Turkish Kurds. I know there was a large flood of Kurdish refugees into Turkey as a result of gas attacks that followed Halabja, and that the Turkish government was resisting allowing them over the border until the mass exodus brought international attention. By contrast Iran has been much more accepting of Kurdish refugees and has been less oppressive toward the Kurds, both their own and refugees. But if the question is "was the 87-88 Anfal campaign the result of a combined Kurdish effort to create a greater "Kurdistan," the answer is no. The Iraqis were the aggressors, and even the Iraqi Kurds themselves, who are broken into two main groups under the PUK and the KDP who have been on the verge of warring against each other for the last 15 years or so.

Personally I'd like to see us revive and honor the Allied promises of WWI and force a Kurdistan out of the four contries that have a chunk, but that's a pipe dream.

[edit]: Yes, "Arabization" was a major part of the genocidal Anfal campaign in the lower regions of the Kurdish region, Kurkuk, Mosul, and Suleimaniyeh. The thinking was that the mountain Kurds aided Iran in the war, so they needed to be wiped out. But the lower, centrally located Kurds had to be weakened by mass relocations of Iraqi Kurds into these areas. So now there's a problem of Kurds reclaiming homes and land from Arabs who were moved in by Saddam's regime.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 5-25-04 @ 9:40 PM

[Captain Rooster]

Can we start a new thread to continue this discussion? The title bugs me.

<img src=http://www.ltrooster.homestead.com/files/wewererooster.jpg>