View Full Version : Partial Birth Abortion Legal
keithy_19
06-01-2004, 12:23 PM
Judge blocks partial birth abortion ban (http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/52041|top|06-01-2004::15:26|reuters.htm)
I could never understand why this would be legal. We punish people who throw their children in the dumpster, shouldn't we do the same for people who kill their living baby?
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Although this is not what the ruling was based on, there is no exception for the life of the mother in the ban. That's why I don't like this particular ban.
Keith's link is broken. Here's another. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5112876)
In the banned procedure, which the government said was never medically necessary, a doctor partially removes a living fetus from the womb before puncturing or crushing its skull. Justice Department attorneys argued that dismembering the fetus in the woman's womb, and removing it in parts, was more humane than having a living fetus partially delivered before killing it.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever read.
Mike Teacher
06-01-2004, 12:32 PM
I could never understand why this would be legal.
ok good. do you know why abortion itself is legal?
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Mike Teacher
06-01-2004, 12:33 PM
pppdrrvw
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do you know why abortion itself is legal?
Well, there's abortion which should be legal. Then there is this barbaric act, which should be rightfully banned.
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Someone explain to me why delivering the head and crushing it is any worse than dismembering the baby in the womb and taking it out piece by piece.
McNabbShouldDie
06-01-2004, 12:48 PM
delivering the head and crushing it is any worse than dismembering the baby in the womb and taking it out piece by piece.
I dont care much to get into the political side of this, but those both sound like disgusting, awful things to do to a baby.
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blakjeezis
06-01-2004, 01:40 PM
What puzzles me is that most of the people that seem so in favor, well perhaps not in favor how about against banning this, are also so rabidly anti-death penalty. I don't understand how the 2 ideas can co-exist in the same head.
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Mike Teacher
06-01-2004, 03:48 PM
I don't understand how the 2 ideas can co-exist in the same head.
Q: Can a person be both Pro-Life and Pro-Choice?
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blakjeezis
06-01-2004, 03:56 PM
Pro-Choice is not necessarily Pro-Abortion. A technicality to be sure, but there's a difference nonetheless.
The arguments against the death penalty, at least that I've heard, are as follows:
A. It's outdated and barabaric - Steeerike 1!
B. Sanctity of human life - Steeeerike 2!
C. Potential death of an innocent - STEEERIKE 3!!!
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I don't understand how the 2 ideas can co-exist in the same head.
Some people do not believe that a fetus is a human being until it is delivered, or until it is past the early stages of development.
ChickenHawk
06-01-2004, 04:07 PM
I'm with Tazz.
Getting rid of a pea-sized clump of cells: Cool.
Sucking the brains out of a fully-formed skull with a vacuum cleaner = Not cool.
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blakjeezis
06-01-2004, 04:15 PM
Some people do not believe that a fetus is a human being until it is delivered, or until it is past the early stages of development.
2 questions, okay , so 1 question in 2 parts:
Part the First - So until the entire body has cleared the birth canal? Labia? Severing of the umbilical chord? Or is it like chess where as long as it is still in contact with the mother, it's not born?
Part the Second - Early stages of development, outside the womb? Like you have a couple of days to decide if you want it or if you're just gonna take a sledge to its skull? Please tell me that's not what you mean.
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This message was edited by blakjeezis on 6-1-04 @ 8:16 PM
schmega
06-01-2004, 04:17 PM
Abortion defenders, however, argued that a woman's health during an abortion is more important than how the fetus is terminated, and that the banned method is often a safer solution.
i'll go by that. i think this method makes it easier to take the fetus out. i honestly dont think abortion doctors would do such a thing if it wasnt necessary or the best way.
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Part the First - So until the entire body has cleared the birth canal? Labia? Severing of the umbilical chord? Or is it like chess where as long as it is still in contact with the mother, it's not born?
Part the Second - Early stages of development, outside the womb? Like you have a couple of days to decide if you want it or if you're just gonna take a sledge to its skull? Please tell me that's not what you mean.
Hey, I'm with you. I'm against abortion. I'm just trying to give you another view of the situation. What I meant by early stages of development was the first few months of the pregnancy.
It's questions like those you posed that make me against abortion. I just can't convince myself that a fetus isn't a human being. But others don't reach the same conclusions, and I can understand that.
EDIT: I should add that I support abortion in any case when the mother's life is in danger.
This message was edited by HBox on 6-1-04 @ 9:06 PM
keithy_19
06-01-2004, 05:16 PM
I 100% agree with HBox.
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Doomstone
06-01-2004, 05:36 PM
One point people are missing is the fact that late term abortions are only done for health reasons, not electively. Medical reasons are usually severe fetal deformity or malformation that would result in the baby dying shortly after birth anyway...oftentimes the fetus is already dead and must be extracted to prevent infection in the mother. I doubt there is one doctor who would perform an abortion 8 months in because the woman suddenly changed her mind and decided she doesn't want the baby. Abortion is a medical decision between a woman and her doctor, an area that politicians should stay the fuck out of.
This was the right decision, but I'm sure we haven't heard the last of it. The righteous religious wackos in power will keep on fighting.
And comparing abortion to the death penalty is ridiculous. One is a private medical decision, the other is granting the government power to kill.
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canofsoup15
06-01-2004, 05:57 PM
The religious wackos are just that, wackos. I was raised christian and it is widely known that god granted man free will. Does having an abortion NOT classify as free will? As for the death penalty, god says that killing is bad ( <I>See</I> The Ten Commandments), therefore any christian for the death penalty is going againt their own believes.
Im pro-choice, anti-death penalty.
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schmega
06-01-2004, 06:11 PM
read that commandment carefully. god is not against killing.
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bigbaldirish
06-01-2004, 08:20 PM
The religious wackos are just that, wackos. I was raised christian and it is widely known that god granted man free will. Does having an abortion NOT classify as free will? As for the death penalty, god says that killing is bad ( <I>See</I> The Ten Commandments), therefore any christian for the death penalty is going againt their own believes.
Im pro-choice, anti-death penalty.
eye for an eye is in the bible my friend. if you take a life, you lose a life. now depending if you believe if a fetus is alive in the 1st trimester or not is what can make you either pro-life and pro-deathpenalty or not
and i'm pro-choice, and pro kill the motherfuckers who murder
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monsterone
06-01-2004, 08:52 PM
spiritually, we are all accountable for our actions. using abortion as birth control is one thing, terminating a birth for medical reasons is entirely a seperate issue.
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TheMojoPin
06-01-2004, 09:01 PM
Along what Doomstone said, this is a rarely done procedure, and is typically only done when the mother's life is in guarenteed danger from the baby and the pregnancy MUST be terminated ASAP. THAT is exactly why people don't want a TOTAL ban...there needs to be this exception to save the life of the mother. Nobody wants this to become a regular practice...but it can't be 100% illegal, either.
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NewYorkDragons80
06-01-2004, 09:04 PM
Forget the actual debate about the legality of abortion. What about the will of duly-elected Senators being overturned by activist judges?
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What about the will of duly-elected Senators being overturned by activist judges?
I am SO SICK of hearing this activist judge bullshit. These judges are doing exatcly what they are supposed to do; interpret the law, just like that pesky constitution says.
bigbaldirish
06-01-2004, 09:23 PM
Forget the actual debate about the legality of abortion. What about the will of duly-elected Senators being overturned by activist judges?
<
checks and balances.
6th grade social studies, look it up
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NewYorkDragons80
06-01-2004, 09:39 PM
I am SO SICK of hearing this activist judge bullshit. These judges are doing exatcly what they are supposed to do; interpret the law, just like that pesky constitution says.
Amendment X - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Plus, there is something seriously wrong with the United States Senate being blocked by a single judge. If the option of partial-birth abortion is such a terrific thing, then the people will elect like-minded Senators who will allow the free exercise of such an undeniably righteous procedure.
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Judicial Review has been a part of this country since Jefferson was President. So, there has been something "seriosuly wrong" with this country for nearly our entire history.
NewYorkDragons80
06-02-2004, 05:47 AM
Well one man's judicial review is another man's unelected legislation. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Look at Roe v Wade. There are plenty of pro-choice liberals who were against that decision out of principle. It usurped the state legislatures' rights to find their own abortion laws. The problem with Judicial review is that it has no boundaries or limits.
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Judicial review isn't perfect, and the case that established it was a pathetic partisan mess, but I believe it has worked in practice. States rights is one thing, but I don't think they should have free reign to do whatever they want, especially when it comes to basic rights. Whether or not that would include abortion is a debate that will probably never end. But, in this particular case, barring doctors from performing this procedure when medically neccessary is unacceptable.
blakjeezis
06-02-2004, 11:21 AM
Of course you're all correct. This is not a legislatable issue. It must be such a profoundly personal and difficult a decision to make that I can't even imagine the emotional trauma and turmoil. My heart goes out to anyone put in the position of having to make it. And I really wish no ever one had to.
I guess the real problem I have is with people who treat as simply a 'medical procedure' and not the termination of a human life. It is repugnant to look at it that way, and if anything it betrays the love of any caring mother and father and denies them their right to grieve their loss. It's like a slap in the face.
That's where those arguments with the death penalty come in. It's complete hypocrisy.
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keithy_19
06-02-2004, 11:30 AM
I'm against abortion because the child hasn't done anything wrong. He/she doesn't deserve to die.
I'm for the death penalty because people who are on death row are there for a reason. Can mistakes happen? Yes, but what was the last time an innocent man has been killed by the death penalty?
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This message was edited by KeithyBoBeefy on 6-2-04 @ 3:35 PM
DarkHippie
06-02-2004, 11:42 AM
Yes, but what was the last time an innocent man had been killed by the death penalty?
Please go to the innocence project (http://innocenceproject.org)
back on track--partial birth abortions aren't like regular abortions where the parents just decide to get rid of the fetus. Its a choice between the life of the mother and the life of the fetus.
i don't see how anyone can choose the life of the unborn over the life of the living, no matter how gruesome the procedure
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This message was edited by DarkHippie on 6-2-04 @ 3:43 PM
TheMojoPin
06-02-2004, 11:43 AM
Yes, but what was the last time an innocent man had been killed by the death penalty?
That's just it...we don't know. States are suspending the death penalty because they're finding hundreds of cases being overturned years after the conviction because of new advances in forensice science. There's no cut and dry sense of who "deserves" to die, except in very few cases. Once someone is dead, you're a lot less likely to clear their name. And how many mistakes like this are OK? 1? 3? 5? 20? 100? 500? 1,000? Lay it on me and give me a figure.
You could also apply this thinking to abortion. People can claim to know all they want...NONE of us "know" when a human life is REALLY a human life and not just a clump of cells and tissue, period. We only have beliefs. Some believe a human is created at conception...others believe a "human" sn't formed until several months into the pregnancy. Obviously we've crossed that line when it comes to partial birth abortions, but again, partial birth abortions are ONLY used when the mother's life is in critical danger from the pregnancy and it must be terminated at once. Banning it outright is an absurd and alarmist tactic that's wholly unecessary since it's rarely done, and when it is, it's for the reason I just described. It's a "window dressing" law meant to appease anti-abortion citizens, and that's it. It serves no practical purpose except to put women's lives in danger for the sake of "party politics."
Personally, I wouldn't ever suggest to my girlfriend or wife that she should have an abortion if her reason was she just didn't want to have the child (Over-generalizing, yes, but I'm trying not to ramble too much). But that's my opinion...I feel it should always ultimately be her CHOICE what she can do. And the amount of women just getting abortions left and right like it ain't no thang is a strawman example (And basically a lie) tossed out by anti-abortion activists who have already passed their judgement on everyone not like them. It rarely happens, bottom line. An abortion is a HUGE decision for pretty much everyone who decides to get one, and how DARE people who can never understand that choice try and trivialize it AND her like she's somehow less than them because of her decision.
And the death penalty comparison goes both ways. People who tend to oppose abortion tend to be conservative who tend to support the death penalty, despite their "all life is sacred" creed. The world is filled with hypocrites on both sides, and if you find someone who isn't, they're probably not real.
Like Geoge Carlin said, "if all life is sacred, go block the gates of cemetaries and quit wasting my time."
I'm anti-death penalty, anti-abortion, pro-choice. Easy enough.
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-2-04 @ 3:44 PM
Mike Teacher
06-02-2004, 11:58 AM
Wonderful! This is where the power, the Real Power of our knowledge can do such amazing things.
Keith, I dont know about the innocent being put to death, that's for said innocence project, but one of the by-products of the Revolution in DNA fingerprinting has shown us this: there have been, and are now, more then a few people doing time for crimes they could not possibly have committed.
That we can even begin to consider a term like 'could not possibly' is amazing enough. Back in the day the physical evidence was good, but only just.
With PCR [a fantastic, cheap, high school level technology that can do the fingerprinting] and the fact that some DNA will last quite a long time on something thats been in an evidence locker for a while, meaning years... well, its oversimplifying, but, we can now look at a person and say, this blood/semen/hair? it is most Certainly not from the person who is doing time for this crime.
Add to this law school students and classes who take it upon themselves to investigate some of the 'iffy' cases throughout the years. I believe some of them have freed people from prison.
And for the True story of a man who was convicted to Life for a crime we now know he did Not commit, because a bunch of film-makers reviewed the case and said, something is really wrong here. Some have guessed the movie is 'The Thin Blue Line' but do a search on the murder of a cop in, shit Vidor? texas, and the names Randall Adams and David Harris, and you should be blown away.
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blakjeezis
06-02-2004, 12:01 PM
Like Geoge Carlin said, "if all life is sacred, go block the gates of cemetaries and quit wasting my time."
Say it ain't so, Mojo. Say it ain't so. Why did you have to do it? Someone always quotes Carlin in these arguments, and it's the worst thing ever.
Second of all, that doesn't even make sense. People don't die in cemetaries, blocking the gates isn't gonna save them. They're already dead when they get there.
People who tend to oppose abortion tend to be conservative who tend to support the death penalty, despite their "all life is sacred" creed. The world is filled with hypocrites on both sides, and if you find someone who isn't, they're probably not real
Yeah, but if I pointed out their hypocrisy, that wouldn't be stirring it up. At least not for me. I couldn't argue agin' 'em and the death penalty.
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Its a choice between the life of the mother and the life of the fetus.
Then why not just go c-section? It's a lot more dignified and humane than crushing the skull and sucking the baby's brains out with a vacuum.
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TheMojoPin
06-02-2004, 12:48 PM
Sorry, bj, but I had been going on too long and I figured I had to try and go out on a joke. Trsut me, I'm not going to use ANY comedian to make my real points.
And Tazz, c-section an option (That's the key here, people...options.)in a few cases, but much of the time the fetus is incapable of surviving outside of the mother at this point. I think too many people are assuming that a nine-month old fetus is going to be pulled out during one of these procedures. That is typically not, if ever, the case.
And a c-section still requires, I believe, labor to be induced...you can't just cut open someone and take a baby out without "getting things in motion." When a woman requires a late-term abortion, it's typically because she's in danger from the final birth stages, something required even in a c-section.
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Mojo, I wasn't thinking along the lines of the fetus surviving. I was thinking that taking the fetus out without sucking it's brains out is a lot less barbaric.
I don't think C-sections require labor. Some people do it soley BECAUSE they don't have to go through labor.
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TheMojoPin
06-02-2004, 01:18 PM
Well, I'm pretty sure something has to be induced. I think people want c-sections to avoid pushing something the size of a watermelon out of something the size of an apple, but what's happening internally during labor still needs to be induced for the baby to be removed. Again, you can't just cut a baby out of a woman when you feel like it. Something must be key at that point if you want both parties to survive.
And as for the procedure itself...hey, it sounds horrible to me. But I doubt that the doctors are purposely trying to make it as awful as possible. If there were another way that was quicker and easier and less gruesome, I'm sure they'd take it. Again, this is pretty much a last resort procedure ONLY.
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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-2-04 @ 5:23 PM
schmega
06-02-2004, 01:37 PM
Then why not just go c-section? It's a lot more dignified and humane than crushing the skull and sucking the baby's brains out with a vacuum.
you want them to have a physical scar to go with the emotional one?
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