What Are They Using As A Point Of Reference?

[ChickenHawk]

Okay, I really wanna know what these Saddam-loyalist bomber insurgents who kill innocent Iraqis (ones who are TRYING TO MOVE TOWARD PEACE AND PROSPERITY), are using as a historical point of reference for their cause. At WHAT POINT in history, ANYWHERE, have car bombs lead to solutions? Are they trying to be the first ones to do it? I don't think I can point to any historical event that was remedied by a roadside explosion.
So, what exactly are these scumbags thinking when they come to the conclusion: "Hey, I hate Americans. I should kill some new Iraqi cops. Then justice will be served! And we can finally live in...wait, Uhh... hey, it worked for... uhh."

This rant was triggered by the following news article, as posted of Drudge:
"SABOTAGE" (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040624/D83DH7GO0.html)

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[Mike Teacher]

My Guess:

They really believe this is the way to go, no pun; killing yourself and as many with you as you can, to get to some higher statio in another life, or an afterlife, to please those that brainwashed them with the religious fundamentalism that teaches [in many other religions, also] that those who dont believe as we do are evil, damned, whatever you want to call it.

=

Someone here said religion is a front. I have to disagree when someone is willing, no clawing at the chance, to blow themselves up. I see no other rationale to this behaviour then that: somehow, someone or some people convinced, indoctrinated, immersed them in a philosphy and religion such that this is the way.

=

As a side note, and let me preface this by saying Bush is really pissing me off lately, which is irrelevant to what Im saying, but it might come off as Hawk-ish.

If these people [im lumping a bunch of groups here] are willing to blow themselves up, behead people on videotape for all to see, etc. I feel they would have Absolutely No Problem with, if given the chance, Now, Today, given all of this 'War Against Terror' [an impossibility] to let loose some WMDs in a major US city. And that is troubling.

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[TheMojoPin]

Well, it got the IRA an Irish republic.

But they still haven't totally "won," so you're pretty spot-on in that terrorism doesn't work. These guys don't care WHO they blow up...as long as they blow someone up.

And once you've convinced a suicide bomber to do that, why should he care how things are actually gonna change? He's going to be dead.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-24-04 @ 3:39 PM

[Recyclerz]

To answer your question directly, the two instances that immediately come to mind are:

Lebanon - 1983. Car bomb kills something like 250 marines sent there on an ill-considered peace-keeping mission. Reagan pulls out all US troops within a month. Syria owns the place ever since.

Vietnam 1968(?) - TET offensive. Viet Cong/North Vietnamese hit US with a surprise attack on many fronts, creating many casualties but not really winning any battles in a strict military sense. But since it is on TV, people in the US start questioning what our people are getting killed for.



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[ChickenHawk]

It's just that, I mean, when something MAJOR is done in today's civilized societies, we look back at what similar actions have done in the past. For example, many compare today's war to Vietnam, many compare it to WWII. It can be perceived as either, depending on what standpoint you're looking at it from. For something like a civil rights movement, everyone's point of reference will always be someone like a Martin Luther King Jr. or a Rosa Parks. We follow other's examples and make proportionate comparisons to the past, in order to judge for the present. Like, (this is just an arbitrary example) "Oh hey, writing letters to HBO brought back The Sopranos... So if we write letters to Infinity, maybe we can get Ron & Fez back." These are just natural background thought processes that occur, often without us even thinking about.

But for these fuckers.... WHAT ARE THEY LOOKING AT? WHEN DID BEHEADING CONTRACTORS EVER LEAD TO A HAPPY MIDDLE EAST? I am just completely at a loss.

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[TheMojoPin]

I don't think there's EVER been a "peaceful" Middle East, at least in about a thousand years...so there's a "no frame of reference"-frame of reference when it comes to peace, I guess.

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This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-24-04 @ 3:48 PM

[Recyclerz]

For homework read

Atlantic Monthly - The Logic of Suicide Terrorism (http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/06/hoffman.htm)


First off, we don't "know" who is doing these bombings; our best guesses are former Baathists wanting to get back into power and/or Islamist jihadists who want to take power. Either way, by increasing the chaos level it - 1. raises the cost to us for staying there and 2. makes it more unlikely that "on the fence" Iraqis will want to cooperate with us, even if they like our business model, since we can't guarantee their safety. This downward spiral makes it more likely that we'll pull out our military, since we as a people actually care about our troops and don't want them killed "for no reason."

Once we're out a civil war is scheduled for about 10 min. later and the bombers are betting that since they already have a dedicated, battle-hardened organization willing to murder on a vast scale for the cause, they will be able to emerge from the chaos victorious and in power. Of course, only one of these groups will be right.

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This message was edited by Recyclerz on 6-24-04 @ 8:04 PM