Women Victims

[The Blowhard]

From Fox News:

If the United States retaliates against last Tuesday's terrorist attacks by bombing Afghan cities, among the main victims of a U.S. strike will be the innocent women who live in terror under the Taliban government.


In the areas of the country controlled by the Taliban - Afghanistan's radically fundamentalist Islamic leadership - women are treated as sub-human. (More moderate Islamic governments, such as that of Iran, oppose the Taliban's treatment of women and its interpretation of Islam.) The human rights organization Amnesty International has diligently issued pleas to the international community to take action against the oppression of Afghan women.

In Afghanistan, women are confined to their homes except for government-approved excursions or when accompanied by a mahram - a prescribed male member of their immediate family. The consequences of disobedience are dire. In Price of Honor, a book that explores the lives of women under Muslim extremism, author Jan Goodwin relates an incident of a woman who is shot by a Taliban guard when she leaves her home to take her acutely ill child to a doctor.

The woman survived the shooting, but when her family complained, the authorities declared that she had no business being in the street. Even if the complaint had been taken seriously, she would have had little hope for justice. A woman cannot petition the court except by going through a mahram and her testimony is valued at half that of a man's.

Goodwin, who has spent considerable time in Afghanistan, wrote of the Taliban guards: "[T]o insure their dictates are followed, religious police...roam the streets. Often teenage boys armed with automatic weapons, they also carry broken-off car aerials or electrical cabling to whip women they decide are not properly observing the regulations."

Before the Taliban came into power, it is estimated that 70 percent of teachers in the Afghan capital of Kabul were women. Now females are not permitted to attend school or to work outside of the home, with the rare exception of some female medical personnel.

Women are often denied basic medical care because it is illegal for them to visit or speak with a man who is not a close relative. In the city of Herat, guards broke into the dental office of Dr. Nader Sina's and whipped several women who were there for treatment. The dentist was imprisoned and told the clinic would be closed permanently if he cared for women again. The city is reportedly without a female dentist.

Unable to earn a living, Afghani women (especially widows) are turning to prostitution in record numbers. And the punishment for prostitution is death. The punishment for adultery can be death as well. A woman named Sohaila was found guilty of adultery for walking with a man who was not a relative. Her sentence - 100 lashes administered publicly - was light because she was single. Had she been married, she would have been publicly stoned to death.

Strict dress codes require women to wear burqas - large, all-encompassing baglike garb. To dress in any other manner or to show an ankle is to risk a public beating. Women caught wearing nail varnish have had parts of their fingers hacked off.

The deep suffering of Afghan women is becoming a matter of international protest, partly through the efforts of the Pakistani-based Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA). RAWA gives the silenced women a voice. One woman wrote, "The Taliban imprisoned my brother because he shaved his face;...they flogged my mother because she did not cover herself head to toe according to the faith....These news [sic] rip my soul off."

Photos of murdered women are posted at RAWA. But currently, the most prominent feature of their web site is a banner reading, "Our mourning hearts go out to the US people."

In any city controlled by the Taliban, the bombs will fall primarily upon Afghan women who huddle in their homes, clinging to their children. The Taliban leaders have already retreated to safer environs. Osama bin Laden is in the Afgha

[Captain Rooster]

Women are many times the silent victims all over the world.

I salute the women of this country that have knocked some sense into the men and have given us a wake up call to the great strength and intelligence that all women possess but is many times repressed!

Keep up the struggle for equality!

Those insecure animals will rue the day they killed American woman on our own soil!

<font color=red><b>Rooster, we respect the sentiment of your sig pic, but your sig is too long and throwing off the page layouts. Please shrink it to 300x100 max. Thank you.</font></b>

This message was edited by JustJon on 9-18-01 @ 1:48 PM

[The Blowhard]

Scum.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called the children of God.

[adolescentmasturbator]

It just surprises me how a human being can be so cruel and disgusting. We haven't advanced at all in these years we have been on Earth.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[HordeKing1]

Although parts of that article were What an offensive article.



We have advanced beyond belief in the last century in the US, the greatest nation of the world, especially in the area of women's rights.

However, it's important to remember that if not for great women like Susan B. Anthony and Margaret Sanger the women in the US would not have the great freedom they enjoy today.

But parts of that article were bullshit. All Muslim countries, treat the women as subhuman.

Take a look at Iran, where women must cover themselves head to toe, and where brothers and fathers can kill their sisters and daughters for "honor debts" with the full approval and even encouragement of the government. Despicable.

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[HordeKing1]

One other point, in regard to this objectionable quote.

"When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think 'the people of Afghanistan' think 'the Jews in the concentration camps.'"

Here's the accurate way to look at it. When you think "Taliban" think Nazi soldiers, supporting the policies of their government. When you think "Bin Laden," think any Nazi officer, issuing the orders. When you think "People of Afghanastan," think of the people of Germany, who were all fully aware of the genocidal acts carried out in front of them, and share in the guilt as much as the others.

Anyone not actively rebelling against tyranny is guilty and must be removed as an act of self-defense. And they will be.

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[JimBeam]

I disagree on your last point Horde.
Its very easy for us here in a country thats had its independence for over 200 years to assume how easy it is to " rebel against tyranny '.
First of all you'd have to define that particular people's idea of " tyranny ".
Also the Taliban is not the government of Afghanistan. It is just the political party that has managed to wrestle control away from the previous rulers. They are not cemeneted in there. There was no election, no primaries. Neither men nor women there were asked their opinion on who would be running the show. Equate the Taliban to a political party in some perverted sense. Same as the Nazi's. The entire German army was not part of the Nazi party. They just fought for their country, and yes blindly to what was going on around them.
So in that sense they were quilty of going along with something they should have rallied against. The same is not afforded the people in underdeveloped countries. These people are starving and most of them will live under any regime as long as they can have some hope of surviving. Its easy for those of us with running water, television, radios and air conditioning to talk of " rebellion ", but its a far more difficult thing to put into practice.
We also have to be wary of condemning some of the practices of other nations ( my point being women covered head to toe rather than women treated as subserviant ). A lot of this is religious belief, and it becomes a sticky matter when we condemn other peoples religious practices. We far too often put our Western beliefs ahead of others and we are right the majority of the time. Cable televsion and microwave foods are great, not the evils that some radicals would have their people think, but it doesnt mean they HAVE to like it.
I give an example of the last time we had a rebellion here in the US. The Confederacy was rising up against what it believed to be " tyranny ", bu did that give them the right to rebel ?? Some would argue yes and some would argue no, but thats not the point I want to make. I just think rebellion in one persons definition could be subversion in another persons. Its all about perspective.
Those who did this will be made to pay, but it shouldnt be because of the fact that they dont prescibe to our Western views, it should be because they took our lives and symbols of our culture and destroyed them. This is not about ideology, its about making things right.

I have balls !!!

[HordeKing1]

JIMBEAM - From a historical perspective, 200 years is less than a drop in the bucket.

Recall how we became a nation. We rebelled, and revolted against tyranny. Only the tyranny we revolted against had to do with taxes and not with the wholesale slaughter of lives.

The Taliban may be "only a political party" but so was the NAZI party. They rose to power and stayed there because the citizens of Germany were very happy to have them.

The entire German Army enforced the edicts of the NAZI party. And yes, the average German citizen had full knowledge and approved of everything that was going on. They made use of Jewish slave labor, they cheered the cattle cars as they headed towards the concentration camps, and kept their windows closed so that annoying smell of cremated flesh wouldn't interfere with the looting of their Jewish neighbor's houses. Of course there were those who just moved in and took "ownership" of these houses. Oh did I leave out the gang rapes of Jewish women wearing the yellow star? Or perhaps the torching of the synagouges with Jews rounded up and placed inside? Or perhaps I forgot to mention Khristelnacht. All these were not political actions, or government actions. They were gladly, eagerly done by German citizens supporting the insane people in power.

The greatest ineptus towards revolution is NOT HAVING THINGS. Look at the French revolution for example. People who are comfortable rarely want to change the status quo.

There is a vast difference between religious beliefs and actual practice. For example the Koran does not call for women to be subserviant, although it is used for this purpose, just as the Jewish and Christian Bible were used for this purpose in the Western world. It took great women like Susan Anthony, to help people see this.

If you haven't already done so, although I can't imagine any school not requiring this, read the autobiography or at least a biography of this extraordinary person. Pay particular attention to the way the clergy tried to use the bible to justify slavery and the complete subservience of women.

As far as women being covered from head to toe, it has the same purpose as the hoop skirts once forced upon women by the Western world.

I won't even begin to mention the horrors of clitorectomies, sometimes attempted to be justified by religious beliefs.

Women are kept oppressed by practices such as these. It is not a westerncentric view, especially when presented as a comparisson to the barbarism of the western world less than a century ago!

There have been many rebellions in US history which resulted in a complete turnabout on policy. Here are two recent and better known examples.

1. The riots of the Great Depression in the 1930's. (Briefly, the federal government, which had long stuck to a strict policy of disapproving of any means of social welfare passed all the New deal legislation when millions of unemployed marched on Washington. All of a sudden jobs were there! And the federal government felt it important to appease the masses. Rebellion works.
2. Another, even more recent example is the civil rights riots of the 1960's, which resulted in all sorts of wonderful, necessary change which the government didn't see the necessity for, until cities were in flames.

The people who did this to the US must pay. Not just Bin Ladin, but every terrorist and the countries that support, train and encourage their actions. Every civilized country in the world, regardless of culture, creed or religion must join in to end the insanity.


http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[The Blowhard]

Very valid points HK. I agree with you totally on this subject.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called the children of God.

[JimBeam]

And I agree for the most part too. I wasnt trying to be combative, just taking another perspective.
I was more concerned with the idea that people should rebel for themselves. If thats that case why the US involvement in Kuwait ??
Shouldnt we have let them rise up ontheir own ??
When does an individual nation have to defend itself ??

I have balls !!!

[Captain Rooster]

We defended Kuwait because our interest were at a great risk.

We defend our assets and our interests wherever they may be. The Kuwaiti's do not have a defense force that could have dealt with an aggressor that did not feed it's people, but would kill thousands of it's people with chemical weapons.

We have a large stake in Saudi Arabia, and we believed that Saddam would assault South into Saudi after he completed his mission on Kuwait.

And by the way - there are oil assets that we needed to protect - Americans love their gas guzzling SUVs.

We are an altruistic society for the most part - we send aid to these countries and help their people - then they turn and spit in our face. I am sick of it too.



<img src=http://www-perscom.army.mil/tagd/tioh/badges/ranger2.gif>

READILY WILL I DISPLAY THE
INTESTINAL FORTITUDE REQUIRED
TO FIGHT ON TO THE RANGER
OBJECTIVE AND COMPLETE THE MISSION
TOUGH I BE THE
LONE SURVIVOR!

[Mr. Masturbator]

First of all HK this is AM Jeff told me to get a new account since my original one wouldn't log in.

As for the statements let's just say this. Women are so horribly repressed in this society that they cannot fight for freedom. There are afghan women fighting but they all are in Pakistan becausae they will surely die soon in Afghanistan. So half of the population is taken off your statement. It's hard for someone to start a Revolution when oppressive forces are on them at every turn. Let's add the children to that then. I hardly think a 6 year old is ready to join a Revolution.

Also there are people fighting almost assuredly within Taliban controlled area. Obviously some of the constant public executions were because they were dissidents.

Take a look at Iran, where women must cover themselves head to toe, and where brothers and fathers can kill their sisters and daughters for "honor debts" with the full approval and even encouragement of the government. Despicable.

I agree with you on that one.

Not being able to log into your old account really sucks.

[HordeKing1]

Earlier I referred to Susan B. Anthony, a great woman who helped secure suffereage for women.

Now I'll refer to Margaret Sanger, perhaps the greatest woman in the past 100 years. Prior to her tireless efforts no information about birth control was permitted to be diseminated (even by drs) as it was ruled to be obscene. Dr's refused to discuss the issue with women at all. If women were lucky, they were able to secure a doctor to try to patch them up after a botched back alley abortion. Of course, they needed a mortician more often than a dr.

Even worse, men, didn't care about the issue and liked their wife's barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

Margaret Sanger distributed material outlining birth control methods. She violated countless laws doing what she knew to be right. She violated every taboo in society and went to jail for it 11 times.

When she began her work, sufferage had not yet been granted, and her fights against those in power was doubly hard. Yet she persisted and achieved tremendous social reform, liberating millions of women from the onus of dozens of unwanted babies.

No matter how little power a person or group has, if they truly desire change they can achieve it.

Everyone can fight for freedom.

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[Pootertoot]

I'll let you argue amongst yourself, I'd just like to chime in with a simple truth.

If these women die as a result of a bombing...well, it's 'cause they just didn't listen.

What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?

Nothin', ya already told her twice!

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[girl germs]

the feminist majority foundation <a href="http://www.feminist.org/afghan/intro.asp">website</a> has information on what the women and girls of afghanistan have to go through. that article pretty much sums it up, though.

<a href="http://www.rawa.org/">this</a><-- is the RAWA website.



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This message was edited by girl germs on 9-23-01 @ 9:59 AM

[Mr. Masturbator]

HK it's pretty hard for a woman to fight for freedom when she will be shot on sight.

That is why RAWA is based in Pakistan.

It's like saying slaves got what they deserved because they didn't rise up aganist the oppressors. But when they did they were killed.

It's easier said than done.

Not being able to log into your old account really sucks.