Your opinions on Racial Profiling?

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

Today I was thinking, "What if
a Middle Eastern male, b/w the
ages of, say, 21-35, whose
present occupation is
"student" applied for a job at
Newark, Laguardia, JFK, or any
airport?!?!" How would the HR
department handle it? Would it
be "politically incorrect" to
not hire him, despite his
qualifications and the EEOC,
given the recent
circumstances? Is it "wrong"
for federal agents, the
police, ANYONE to take a
second look
at someone with a
Middle Eastern name now?

-----
I wish I loved the human race; I wish I loved its silly face; I wish I liked the way it walks; I wish I liked the way it talks; And when I'm intoduced to one; I wish I thought, What jolly fun!

<IMG SRC="http://members.home.net/vitamin.d/referencepix/oswald.jpg">

[Captain Rooster]

The days of liberal bullshit political correctness are OVER!

Sorry but it's true - we need to survive as Americans and protect our people.

The fact that we are an open society can't change, but we must alter the practices of the people that are hired to protect us. They need to have the FREEDOM to check when they even have just a "hunch" that someone might be doing something wrong.

We as Americans must realize that some of our privacy may be lost - but if we have only the best intentions we have nothing to worry about!

God Bless America!


<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosternladin.jpg>

WAITING FOR A MISSION!

[HordeKing1]

Even the opponents of racial profiling concede that certain crimes occur within a given population more often than they do in another population. That's a given and not even debated.

I do not have any problem with racial profiling. If you're not doing anything wrong, why would anyone have a problem?

Similarly, I have no problem with security cameras and the like even though it means giving up a certain degree of personal freedom. Only those who are up to no good will be leary of these measures.

I think that curtailing some liberties that we've come to expect is going to become factual out of necessity. I'd rather show my drivers license everywhere for example, than have another WTC. Not a terrific example but I'm sure you get the idea.

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[skullcrush]

hay alice theres a saying out there for this topic."if the shoe fits..."if you aint doin nothing wrong fuck it,its for your own safty.

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"this sig was brought to you by wwfallon"

[Se7en]

Well, I'm white, so it doesn't effect me. So bring on the racial profiling!

"Someone wearing a diaper on his head should be expected to be interrogated."
--- U.S. Rep. John Cooksey, R- LA

<img border="0" src="http://www.se7enmovie.com/images/splash/middle.jpg" width="300" height="100">

What sick ridiculous puppets we are / and what gross little stage we dance on / What fun we have dancing and fucking / Not a care in the world / Not knowing that we are nothing / We are not what was intended

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

The days of liberal
bullshit political correctness
are OVER!


Rooster, even though I am a
civilian, I SALUTE YOU!!!

-----
I wish I loved the human race; I wish I loved its silly face; I wish I liked the way it walks; I wish I liked the way it talks; And when I'm intoduced to one; I wish I thought, What jolly fun!

<IMG SRC="http://members.home.net/vitamin.d/referencepix/oswald.jpg">

[Pootertoot]

Racial profiling is fine, because I'm white. I'll see the rest of you whites at the meeting next week, It's a special symposium entitiled "101 ways to Keep a Brother Down"

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[Mr. Masturbator]

I do not have any problem with racial profiling. If you're not doing anything wrong, why would anyone have a problem?

Because I don't like the idea of my government watching me for something I didn't do.

Let's say it wasn't based on racial lines but on ideological lines. Let's say that the government profiled people that are far left(which they already do but that's another topic) because they may be a "potential threat".

Civil liberties are an afterthought and they shouldn't be. Because if they aren't the Consitution isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Not being able to log into your old account really sucks.

[HordeKing1]

Security vs. Civil Liberties. Security takes precedence.

Remember that profiling is not the same as arresting, or abusing or anything of the sort. It is checking people out who fit a profile to make sure they aren't doing anything wrong.

If they aren't they are let go, end of story.

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[Mr. Masturbator]

It is checking people out who fit a profile to make sure they aren't doing anything wrong.

I want to know how you would feel if you were made to be a second-class citizen for "security". I have an idea beef up security for everyone. Let's say that the terrorists were white males and that there were a lot were white males that were terrorists. I doubt that any of them would be searched because white males are the majority and have the most power.

Not being able to log into your old account really sucks.

[Gvac]

Not long ago in this forum, I dredged up my favorite Thomas Jefferson quote: "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

Here's another one of my favorites : "The weak crave security, the strong crave freedom."

I may be in the minority, but forced to make the choice, I would much rather sacrifice some security for freedom rather than vice-versa.

And welcome back, bro.

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[Death Metal Moe]

You guys are Fuckin' Scaring me.

What's with all this talk of giving up our freedoms? You WANT the government to be in your life 24/7? Let's not let this tradgedy cloud our judgement. If you have cameras everywhere, and guards and checkpoints everywhere, what happens when the war on Terror is over? They stay there, and continue to limit our freedoms. And if you think that it's not going to be easy for corrupt officials to use these new measures to do whatever they choose, you're sadly mistaken.

I'm not doing anything wrong, but I know that because I have long hair, I get pulled over A LOT more than your average citizen. Let's not forget that your civil sevants are not color blind computers metering out justice fairly. They're just like you and me, with prejudices and problems. And I don't want to give too much power to ANY one area of the our government to do as they please. This sounds like a KGB type set up, or Secret police type force that could do as they please. Not a good idea.

We're ALL afraid. But be careful what you say. You DON'T want to give up ANY of your freedoms too quickly in the name of security.

http://www.bigsexxxy.homestead.com/files/OsamaSUCKS_.jpg

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

Profiling has been going on for years my friends! Ok, I, uhhh, know this guy whose dad worked for a government agency. He told me that had we met and started dating in the 80s, this government agency would have kept a file on me. Ok, they keep files on all family members BUT they would have taken special interest in me because I am of Russian descent and I was a Soviet Studies major in college. You know what, I FIND NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! You know why? BECAUSE I HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG NOR HAVE I DONE ANYTHING THE LEAST BIT THREATENING TO THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE!!!!

Ok, I was "asked" to leave the Girl Scouts but it was because of my lousy attitude.


-----
I wish I loved the human race; I wish I loved its silly face; I wish I liked the way it walks; I wish I liked the way it talks; And when I'm intoduced to one; I wish I thought, What jolly fun!

<IMG SRC="http://members.home.net/vitamin.d/referencepix/oswald.jpg">

[hyperspace]

well, its not very nice, but it works.

How did i end up here??

[Dirtybird11]

i think its sad that after all these years we still judge people by their appearence..but i did flip off about 10 middle eastern dudes on the road today...sorry. i just snapped.

<img src="http://members.aol.com/erinmoran01/images/spicoli5.jpg" height =100 width=300>
it's a beautiful sound When my life comes crashin down

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

but i did flip off about 10 middle eastern dudes on the road today...


What? They allow camels on the Turnpike now?

(sorry... I'm so ashamed of myself)

-----
I wish I loved the human race; I wish I loved its silly face; I wish I liked the way it walks; I wish I liked the way it talks; And when I'm intoduced to one; I wish I thought, What jolly fun!

<IMG SRC="http://members.home.net/vitamin.d/referencepix/oswald.jpg">

[Captain Rooster]

well please realize a few things about profiling. For example with Arab Americans. Profiling does not mean that the government watches these people 27/7. That would be impossible. The fact is a PROFILE is established.
This is my example and very crude..but you'll get the idea.
1. Muslim
2. From a known Terrorist Nation
3. Works with large sums of cash
4. Attends extemists functions, gatherings etc.
5. Wants to fly - hehe


this is a profile that may be established to narrow down the search...it is just like using an internet search engine...and it works very well!

I love my freedom..I would die for the freedom that I have been afforded, but when do we realize freedom needs to be monitored and that it is always static. The rules for these animals have changed...if we do not change...they will not rest until we are all dead!

SAD BUT TRUE...trust the people that run this country, questio them of course, but I honestly believe they want us to be safe. I know I do.

God Bless America!

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosternladin.jpg>

[adolescentmasturbator]

1. Muslim
2. From a known Terrorist Nation
3. Works with large sums of cash
4. Attends extemists functions, gatherings etc.
5. Wants to fly - hehe

1. Check
2. Check
3. Negative
4. Extremist functions? Then you would have to monitor them 24/7.
5. Yeah when I go to see my cousin in Denmark I'm going to terrorize Copenhagen.

Just because someone is from a terrorist country it doens't make them a target. By that sense every American should be profiled because the World Court found America guilty of terrorism.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[HordeKing1]

ALICE wrote, "Profiling has been going on for years."

Profiling isn't exclusively done to blacks or Arabs or any other non dominant member of our culture. Whites are profiled all the time, just for different crimes than blacks. Serial murder for example is much more likely to be committed by whites.

Crimes are prevented and criminals are caught by profiling. There are many types of profiling and all are used and must be used for effective law enforcement; Physical profiling; pschological profiling; motive profiling; relationship profiling; etc.

Citizens of terrorist states as well as those that support them must be profiled as they are known as a class to be more likely than say a native of Switzerland to be a potential threat. Even if a particular individual is not guilty all must be watched or the guilty have much greater chances of fulfilling their nefarious attacks on life and liberty.

(I guess Adolescent Masturbator can hypothesize a Palestinian as not being deserving of profiling, just as he no doubt hypothesises a Nazi who wasn't guilty, even though both fully accept and support the unlawful genocidal policies of their governments and act faithfully to carry out that policy. More likely, he'll blame the Jews for angering the Nazis and Palestinians, forcing them to commit genocide against them).



http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[adolescentmasturbator]

HK just won't give up on that. I just love how when someone says that the Israeli government commits terroristic practices just like Hamas and Islamic Jihad and condemns both of them they are automatically labeled as anti-semtitic?

You have to have this feeling that every Palestinian is an extremist Islamist that is smart as a caveman. Sure obviously there are some like that like the terrorist organizations but that doesn't necesarily represent all of them.

A Palestinian on this subject is Edward W. Said. He's very important because his ideas are secular.

The argument of anti-Semitism is brought up usually to cloud the facts. Obviously there is some anti-Semitism in some of these people. That is indisputable but isn't necesarily true.

I remember you jumping on the Palestinians for dancing on the streets for the WTC crash. Well apparently that video was from 1991!

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[Captain Rooster]

3. Works with large sums of cash

3. Negative


what are you talking about adolescentmasturbator?

Americans do not walk around with 25 grand in a bag - paying for things worth thousands of dollars with cash...and if the minority does...they are investigated!

if a person takes $10,001 dollars out of the bank in cash (white, black, arab, yellow, orange, etc) they are questioned by the treasury..so don't talk about what you do not know dude! THAT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF PROFILING THAT WAS ESTABLISHED TO COMBAT DRUGS IN THIS COUNTRY -

WORKING WITH CASH WAS ALWAYS A DRUG PROFILE..NOW IT IS USED FOR TERRORIST SCUM-BAGS TOO!

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosternladin.jpg>

[adolescentmasturbator]

Rooster I was representing what ones matched me. I said negative because I don't handle large sums of cash.

I think you were confused by what I was trying to say.

And don't get me started on the drug war.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[Captain Rooster]

yawn...

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosternladin.jpg>

[HordeKing1]

ADOLESCENT MASTURBATOR - Israel engages in acts of SELF DEFENSE against terrorist aggression by their arab neighbors. They do not instigate terrorism.

I won't give up on this issue because I maintain hope that eventually you'll have the sense to think for yourself and overcome the rhetoric of your upbringing that you continue to espouse and look at the facts.

Previously you denied that palestinian children are taught to hate Jews from their first day of school. You denied that Palestinians use their kids as human shields, to throw dealy rocks at soldiers while their parents shoot from the rear, then weep to the media when the kids (terrorists themselves) are killed by the soldieres they are pelting with rocks in self-defense. If they didn't indoctrinate their kids in hate, or even had the balls to fight themselves without hiding behind the skirts of their kids, the death of the kids would have some meaning other than being death of a young terrorist. You deny that Palestinians are taught that they go to their heaven by engaging in Jihad against Jews and Americans. You deny that Palestinians symptomatically teach their kids that the holocaust never occured. You deny that Palestinian terrorists make their headquarters in hosptials and orphanages to discourage retaliatory strikes.

Worst of all, like all anti-semites, you hide behind the myth that your hatred of Jews and Israel is justified because they are the aggressors and thus must be killed every last one of them (to quote the great "peacemaker" Arafat, and Hitler for that matter).

While you're working up a typical anti-semetic and now no-doubt anti-Amercian response, here are some more facts about the Israel Arab "conflict" (otherwise known as the Arab war of extermination against the Jews).

And yes, every Palestinian murdereing anti-american, anti-semetic terrorist should be killed as expediciously and preferably as painfully as possible. Their killers are saving and avenging countless lives.

Here are some more facts for you to ignore, misconstrue or warp.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 BC, 2,000 years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BC the Jews have had dominion over the land for 1,000 years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Jewish Bible. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were
encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. 68%left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the
100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict - The Arabs are represented b

[adolescentmasturbator]

Ok here is my thoughts. Let us have an intelligent discussion about this instead of resorting to accustations of anti-Semitism. I am highly critical of Arafat and the PLO. Do you know what I want? A binational state. That's what I want. Generally if there is an activist on the Palestinian/Israeli issue it is Said. Particularly because he criticizes both the PLO and the Israeli Government.

You say that Israel defends itself? Sure some strikes may be in retaliation but Israel is known to kill civilians itself. Israel ILLEGALLY occupies territory but that isn't a problem right? Israel breaks the same Geneva convention it pushed for.

With my argument of secularized argument your religous arguments are moot. And besides you are an atheist can't use religon just when it helps you.

10. Of course there were some like that my points are both sides tend to commit atrocities.

14. That's why I am also critical of the PLO.

15. Won't argue on that one. You seem to think I will try to dispute every Arab atrocity? Why is that?

These UN votes are generally weak and do nothing. Israel has shown to break international law by breaking treaties.

And the U.N. was silent when the Turkish government was slaughtering Kurds. The U.N. is weird like that.

Oh and some Palestinians do commit terrorism. Guess what Israel when it "retaliates" it terrorizes as well. Israel did some more killing of civilians after the WTC tragedy using it as a blanket. I've seen footage myself of peaceful protestors being dragged by the Israeli military.

Of course if the Israeli government commits atrocities it does not excuse Palestinian terrorists that do the same thing. But of course you'll find a way HK to paint me as a Nazi wanting to exterminate all Jews. You know you will.

<A HREF="http://www.progressive.org/interview9904.htm">BTW, Here's an interview with Edward W. Said, I tend to agree with him a lot on this issue</A>



I will get a sig pic...eventually

[HordeKing1]

You might want a binational state but that's not what is wanted by Arafat, the other Palestinian terrorists or the surronding Arab countries.He is a terrorist. He does not want peace. He will never want peace. He stands by his statments that he will not rest until every Jew (not Israeli btw, but Jew) is dead.

Arafat, who should have been killed decades ago for his terrorism is now considered too soft by the Palestinians. Arafat will never agree to peace becasue doing so would lose him whatever political power he has remaining.

And it was Israel that offered a bilateral state, (shoved down it's throat by the US). This was was summarily rejected by Arafat. These will be no peace until every Arab terrorist is made to pay for his crimes against Israel and humanity.

"Accustations of anti-Semitism" I was surprised to read that. AFter all your attacks on Jews and Israel and refusal to acknowledge history, and to deny the reality of the mid east situation and to place blame on victims of course you're an anti-semite. The saddest part is, you may not even know it.

OF COURSE Israel kills civilians, but only in response to terrorist acts against it. Israel has demonstrated remarkable restraint, but a jihad has been declared against Israel and now on America too. In a war there will be casualties. Israel acts in self defense, never acting deliberately to kill civilians. Next time you read about the Palestinians blowing themselves up on a schoolbus ask yourself if Israel has ever responded in kind. (And if you say anything other than of course not, there is just no reasoning with you.)

"Israel ILLEGALLY occupies territory." Surprise, Israel owns the country. Spain owns Spain. The US owns the US. Live with it.

I haven't made any religious arguements as you can tell from anything more than a cursory reading of these points. I noted that the Arabs who claim religious entitlement to the land are full of shit b/c their own religion doesn't support their claims. That is a secular response to a religious argument made by the Arab fundamentalists. Empirical examination of the different religious claims to the land shows the Israelis have one, the Moslems do not.

"You seem to think I will try to dispute every Arab atrocity? Why is that?" Because you have systematically done so, and usually justified it by a false claim of Israeli aggression that justified it.

The examples of the UN, show the overwhelming anti-semitism demonstrated and the double standard the world applies to Israel and the arab nations. If the dinos hadn't died where they had, this conversation wouldn't even be taking place.

It's also interesting to me how you used the UN as evidence of Israeli attrocities, but claim they are meaningless when the facts don't back up these findings.

If you consider retaliation against terrorism "terrorism," I suppose we'll be seeing a lot more anti-American posts from you hopefully in the very very near future.


http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[adolescentmasturbator]

That's why I oppose Arafat and the PLO. His organization has been linked with terrorism and that's why I oppose him. As Said said(yeah I know), "There is no military option."

However Israel has been shown to not have "generous" land for peace deals and been very rejectionist.

Israel acts in self defense

What was the act of defense when Israeli tanks started appearing two weeks ago?

Sure some of the anti-Israeli sentiment is racist but to brush off every claim a person is making as anti-Semitic is ludicrous.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[HordeKing1]

ADOLESCENT MASTURBATOR - You wrote, "Israel has been shown to not have "generous" land for peace deals and been very rejectionist."

Offering land to people, not entitled to it, and who have been summarily rejected by their countrymen is the height of generosity.

RECALL THAT THERE WAS NO CLAIM FOR A PALESTINIAN "STATE" UNTIL NEARLY 2 DECADES AFTER THE RESITABLISHMENT OF THE MODERN STATE OF ISRAEL. ANY LAND OFFERED BY ISRAEL IS MORE THAN GENEROUS.

Furthermore, the latest land offer, was greater than Arafat had demanded and Arafat stunned US analysts by his refusal to accept Israels offer. It couldn't have surprised anyone w/a modicrum of intelligence that Arafat, a terrorist, has never and will never be interested in peace.

(Israel was foolish, to the highest degree by offereing land for the unfounded, unenforceable "promise" that the Arabs would stop their campaign of terror against their citizens.

That is not how to deal with terrorism.

The Palestinians and other terrorists must be hunted down and shot like the dogs they are.

When Israel sends in tanks to destroy the buildings in which Palestinians have been launcing grenades, killing people, is of course justified.

YOU DON'T SEEM TO GET IT. RESPONDING TO PALESTINIAN TERRORIST ACTIVITIES BY ATTACKING PALESTINIAN STRONGHOLDS IS NOTHING BUT A RESPONSE TO TERRORISM. IT IS MERELY SELF DEFENSE.

Israel doesn't go far enough. No other country would put up with the shit they do. I hope that America will finally let them loose to wipe out all Palestinian and other terrorists they can find. The world will be a better, much safer place.


http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[adolescentmasturbator]

There are many land offers that have been proven to be very stingy on the part of Israel. You say that Israel shouldn't give any land but it's pretty obvious that some sort of deal should be made. David Ben-Gurion once stated that you can't just expect the people that were here before to just accept any country that replaces them(this isn't an exact stating, I have it in a book somewhere but I'm too lazy to look).

The Palestinians and other terrorists

Are you saying all Palestinians are terrorists? That is like saying all Irish are terrorists.

When Israel sends in tanks to destroy the buildings in which Palestinians have been launcing grenades, killing people, is of course justified.

UM no they were homes where people lived in. Or how about the Palestinians who are so poor they have to live in caves but then are forced out by the Israeli government.

When Israel kills a terrorist it doesn't bother me but when they kill civilians that's a bit on the wrong side just like the Palestinian terrorists who do the same thing.

Terrorism appears on both sides of this conflict. To say otherwise just isn't true. For me to say the Palestinians commit no terrorism or that it is justified would show how wrong I am. But that isn't what I'm saying.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[Death Metal Moe]

HA! You guys are smart. Look at you debating.

And My dad is from Syria! So he has some strange named brothers! I have an Uncle Said! Why? Cause Said said!

And I have an Uncle Naim, which to us Americans is just said like the word name. So What's your name? Naim. Yes, your name, you stupic Arab Bastard! Naim! Oh, now you don't speak English? How about if I give you a Camel Kick to the throat?!

HAHAHAHA!!!!!! Listen, My dad ran from the Israli's in 1967 in the 7 day war. But even he wants peace, even if it means Israel keeping the Golan Heights that they took unjustly, and the world turned a blind eye to.

But with all that said, KILL TERRORISTS EVERYWHERE! ALL who oppose the MIGHTY USA must be stopped! I know that some of my family are in Syria, a country that has funded terrorist bombings before, and I know that this fact might lead to the US striking there. I just hope my family isn't living near any of them when they have to drop the bombs!

http://www.bigsexxxy.homestead.com/files/new_masked.gif

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

Good Lord, what did I start???

Profiling is a fact of life
from this point on, my
friends. Ok, perhaps we should
drop the "racial" part.
"Profiling" is a necessary
means of keeping the United
States SAFE!

I would like to ask
adolescentmasturbator this:

Given the events of the past
three weeks and assuming more
terrorist attacks are a given,
would you think twice before
boarding a plane with 5 middle
eastern males, all between the
ages of 20-45, without beards?

At this point in time I would
refuse! One of MY civil
liberties is the freedom to
LIVE! I *refuse* to give that
up, regardless if it is
politically correct or not!

-----
I wish I loved the human race; I wish I loved its silly face; I wish I liked the way it walks; I wish I liked the way it talks; And when I'm intoduced to one; I wish I thought, What jolly fun!

<IMG SRC="http://members.home.net/vitamin.d/referencepix/oswald.jpg">

[adolescentmasturbator]

Given the events of the past
three weeks and assuming more
terrorist attacks are a given,
would you think twice before
boarding a plane with 5 middle
eastern males, all between the
ages of 20-45, without beards?

Do you realize how many people there are? There are 7 million muslims in this country and 2 million arabs. Do you think I should be frightened by all those people especially when I'm a part of that group?

And a civil liberty is equal protection under the law.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[sunndoggy8]

Profiling is a fact of life from this point on, my
friends. Ok, perhaps we should
drop the "racial" part.
"Profiling" is a necessary
means of keeping the United
States SAFE!

You can't just say that we should drop the racial part...it's obviously not that easy, and completely and utterly ridiculous to think that you can just take that aspect out of profiling, because it's primarily based on race (yes it is) whether you like it or not.

Saying that you would be scared of being on a plane with people who have brown skin is understandable, given the recent attacks, but is essentially based in racism and fear, when you get right down to it. At any point in your life did you fear of being killed by a serial killer, who are often classified as being white? Or of a white mad with a buzz cut, as Timothy McVeigh was? I'm not saying that you personally are racist, but your thoughts are just steps away from saying that people with brown skin should be on different flights, or that anyone white is a a much safter person to be around compared to someone w/brown skin.

Racial profiling condones and proliferates racism. It's frustrating that so many people are for it obviously have never experienced it or seen it happen first hand. It's easy to say to do it if you're a white, b/c, like many blacks have stated in the past, you don't understand what it's like.

You may think it's liberal or unpatriotic or naive of me to say so, but that's not a fair assessment of me, or of the situation. Racial profiling is wrong.

It's 3am in the morning, and hopefuly this post makes some sense, but I'll post again a much more coherent and explained case, not that anyone really cares.

<IMG SRC="http://home.att.net/~sunndoggy8/sunnysig1.jpg" width=300 height=80>

<font color="#0F00CD">~~".............................................."-~~</font color="#0F00CD">

[EffMeBoobs]

Sunny, I totally agree with your statement (which makes sense even for 3AM babble and yes I care!). Racial profiling is just wrong. I find myself a bit more cautious, but I am not downright racist towards them. In fact, when I see an Arab hanging an American flag in their store, it makes me feel good. Unfortunately for others, this is a way of life, and the world we live in. We have to accept it and ignore the ignorance of others. It makes each one of us a better person for doing so.

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GOD BLESS AMERICA AND THE WTC VICTIMS<img src=http://members.aol.com/islejg24/images/flagusa.gif>

[iscream22]

Well, it really is a terrible thing, but, Its natural that racial profiling is going to occur. Its too bad. :(

<img src="http://www.rfnetsigs.homestead.com/files/clerks.jpg">

[Captain Rooster]

Profiling works, and it also affects all races.

Yes...a white male witha buzz cut may be part of a profile that adds up to a possible terrortist. BUT not just that he is white and has a buzz cut. Does he attend extremist functions? Does he work with large sums of cash for item that costs over $10,000? Does he have military or explosives training?
These things begin to develop a "profile" - not just one distinguishing trait as in race.

The common John Q. Public does NOT profile. We work on face value for lack of a better word right now. Yes - that is a racial assumption - BUT how can a person get away from gut feelings and fears.

One person represents their entire group. If a man in a Police uniform beats a man - ALL cops bear the weight of that one man's stupid action. If a black man dresses like a ganstaer rapper and shoots a person...all the black Americans are brought down a notch and the entire race bears the burden. If a priest touches a little boy or girl, all priests begin bearing the weight of being called pedophiles.... Hard facts.


That is why Bush and all leaders are saying in the case of the attack - do not condemn all Arabs...BUT how does the common citizen get past the fact the when the few and far between ataack....the death toll is incredible?

They have attacked us and we have credible fear - that stigma will stick with American Arabs for a long time to come.....Sad yes....but True yes


I do not know how we will overcome those stigmas.

I am in the military - and people think I polish my boots, clean my rifle, and yell at people all day while praying for war. NOT true...but that is what I must realize when people see me in uniform. Isn't that just like a racist assumption?

Just a mind dump for everybody - I just do not understand some of the fears that we all have and how we will move forward in America - these animals are trying to tear us apart - we must overcome.

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/nyskyline.jpg>

[sunndoggy8]

Profiling works, and it also affects all races.

That simply is not true. Statistics and studies show that minorities experience racial profiling to a much greater degree than whites do. You can counter that by saying minorities commit more crimes than whites, as statistics also show, but that gets us into the territory of fairness in the justice system, as well as upbringing, so lets just stay away from that subject for now.

Yes...a white male witha buzz cut may be part of a profile that adds up to a possible terrortist. BUT not just that he is white and has a buzz cut. Does he attend extremist functions? Does he work with large sums of cash for item that costs over $10,000? Does he have military or explosives training? These things begin to develop a "profile" - not just one distinguishing trait as in race.

This would be a wonderful more advanced way to profile, if it existed. But it doesn't. Race is the easily identified as the most obvious reason for profiling. For example, a black man being pulled over on the highway has not had this sort of extensive background check on him. But to move to Arabs and those of Middle-Eastern heritage, there are not extensive background checks of people who are simply being stopped at airports b/c they look like one of the hijackers. I hate to bring up just one example, but those 3 Iraqi-born men in Utah who were refused to be allowed on a flight, b/c people were afraid for their safety, is racial profiling, by that entire flight. The fact that they were not allowed to fly, while possibly being an isoloated incident in itself, shows that race has a whole lot more to do with it than a background check. Yes they're doing background checks to find terroist sympathizers, but a black man being pulled over on the side of a highway is not having a background check being performed on him.

It comes down to condoning racial profiling. If you condone it in terms of Arabs and Arab-Americans, then there is nothing to stop it from being done to black, hispanics, and minorities, as it has been done for years already.

The common John Q. Public does NOT profile. We work on face value for lack of a better word right now. Yes - that is a racial assumption - BUT how can a person get away from gut feelings and fears.

Well then if this was true, the public would be totally at peace and there would be no race/hate crimes of any type. But there are plenty of them that occur. You admit that it is a racial assumption, and you ask how we can get rid of these fears brings up the feeling that you think racism can never be eliminated. Well that's obviously not an easy question, b/c if it was, we'd all love each other, right? The one thing I can say is that we've been able to gain equal rights for women, for black, for other minorites, and this is all a part of that goal. Theres obviously more to it than that, but simply saying, "oh well, people are racist, and that's the way it is", is just acceptance of injustice. If all the women and minorites that fought for equal rights thought that, American society would not be as equal and fair as it is today. Acceptance absolutely is not the answer.

One person represents their entire group. If a man in a Police uniform beats a man - ALL cops bear the weight of that one man's stupid action. If a black man dresses like a ganstaer rapper and shoots a person...all the black Americans are brought down a notch and the entire race bears the burden. If a priest touches a little boy or girl, all priests begin bearing the weight of being called pedophiles.... Hard facts.

This is absolutely one of the most utterly surprising in terms of ignorant statements that a human being could make. You're defending stereotyping, and condoning prejidice and racism to all people. Yes there are ignorant people out there who do stereotype entire groups over the actions of certain individuals, and you seem to be one of them by making that statement. Hopefully you're just stating something that y

[Captain Rooster]

I am not a racist

Well...for a guy that is all for peace and equality and understanding
1. You completely attacked me, and continued to refer to me as an ignorant person..hint hint...that does not bode well for understanding...that only insults a person.

2. You completely misunderstood my post. Your comments were off base and completely wrong with reference to what I was describing.

I am a very passionate person that loves this country and all of it's citizens.

I find that many liberal thinkers speak in a self proclaimed higher knowledge and understanding. They just love to hear themselves speak or type and love theory without action.

What action do you take to end all of these great ills of society? Really - I hear you disgust for RACIAL injustice - but what are you doing to stop it? Just talking about it? Just reading libral theory and pointing your finger at people that are trying to make a difference and saying that they are racist? Is that how you are eradicating this evil racist cancer that is in our society - by just sitting back and becoming a critic and a cynic?

I lost a fellow Lieutenant in that attack.

Unlike you...I also have to give up precious time with my family and new wife to police the nations's airports because some evil idiots have a beef with the US and kill innocent civilians. You seem to be a guy that would just let these guys run all over us and just overwhelm them with your vast knowledge of a shiny happy society. I am sorry but time for that great theory has ended. We are going to be destroyed eventually if we do nat act.

Taking action in a time of WAR is hard and the road to victory can be very hard.

"Profiling" is one way to win this war. The cells that are living among us must be found....sorry if liberals may have to endure somebody actually getting up and taking action but it must happen.






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This message was edited by LTRooster on 10-1-01 @ 1:40 AM

[sunndoggy8]

1. I did not attack you per se, I attacked the words that you posted, and because I disagree with you and decided to point out the specific areas that I disagreed with does not mean I was insulting you or attacking you. You could disagree with me from everything to issues on abortion to your favorite ice cream flavor, and if I disagree, but if come off as insulting you(which I may have done), then that was not my intention.

But to think that your post wasn't insulting is also an ill concieved notion as well.

I specifically said numerous times in my post that I hoped I was misunderstanding you, and that I hoped your words were coming out the wrong way.

Nonetheless, my feelings of your ignorance on the issue remains, but I'll get to that in a second. Back to what you posted...

2. Okey if I misunderstood your post, then explain what you meant by the numerous things you said. <b>Clarify</b> what you were saying and what you meant, b/c I'm sure I"m not alone in the misunderstanding of what you were saying.

3. I am a very passionate person that loves this country and all of it's citizens.

I never said that I doubted that, but I again questioned what you meant in your previous post. Again I ask for clarification.

I find that many liberal thinkers speak in a self proclaimed higher knowledge and understanding. They just love to hear themselves speak or type and love theory without action.

If you think that I'm a "liberal thinker" simply b/c I disagree with racial profiling, then you are mistaken. I absolutely do not have a holier than thou attitude about my high hopes, because I know just as well as you that what I hope and what I theorize about is a hard thing to envision happening in my lifetime.

What action do you take to end all of these great ills of society? Really - I hear you disgust for RACIAL injustice - but what are you doing to stop it? Just talking about it? Just reading libral theory and pointing your finger at people that are trying to make a difference and saying that they are racist? Is that how you are eradicating this evil racist cancer that is in our society - by just sitting back and becoming a critic and a cynic?

Isn't talking about it, isn't theorizing about it, considering it in your own mind and being open to racial equalty a huge step, rather than just denying that it's possible to change society? As you said, it's a huge problem in society, but like I have previously said, simple acceptance won't get us anywhere. If I can steal a quote from an article I recently read, "this is the time for the greatest debate and discussion that our country has ever had, in terms of reactions to the attacks and future dealings in foreign policy." Just as I didn't assume you were ignorant (I specifically said that I may have misunderstood you), you can't assume I'm a liberal do nothing pointing fingers, as you said.

What would satisfy you here, me telling that I have volunteered to counsel children, primarily mentally disabled, who have experienced racist and biased attacks through high school and college? That I've participated in demonstrations for racial equality? That I've written countless proposals and essays and letters in hopes of changing one person's mind?

Or would personal experiences help? Can I tell you about Muslims I know who have been harrassed and pushed to the ground b/c of prejudice?? Or perhaps helping to clean a Mosque near where i work in central NJ that was covered in grafitti and w/broken windows saying, "Go back to your country, dotheads?"(which is a statement that totally shows the ignorance of the people who did it)

Can I tell you about a mentally handicapped child who I have known for 2 years, who was harrassed and forced to tears by adults because she simply has brown skin? Would that help? Maybe more personal, an uncle of mine was killed years ago in India by terrorists in Kashmir on his honeymoon...Am I more worthy of making comments on racial equality now? Of course I'm biased

[Captain Rooster]

Sunndoggy

First of all.reread all of my posts..I have not used the term "Racial Profiling" once!

Racial profiling is a term used to describe supposed racist tactics that have been used by law officers when dealing with black motorists.

You dropped the racial, but hey, lets just leave that alone.
that is why I say you have attacked me.you have not even quoted and paraphrased me correctly.

I specifically said numerous times in my post that I hoped I was misunderstanding you...

You completely have and I will clarify the diffence between "racial profiling" and "profiling." You are adding emotion and anger to the post based on the title of the thread. The thread is racial profiling - but the real title should be "Terrorist Profiles"

I have been posting about "Profiling". There is a huge difference. Look at Atta the terrorist. He fits a terrorist profile.now.when we look in hindsight to the death of 6,000+ people.

You are confused about the difference between a "Racial profiling" and a "profile".
Serial killers, rapists, thieves, drud dealers, Terrorists .all have similar traits that can aid law enforcement to catch them. Don't you see that? An FBI agaent is not looking for a terrorist driving down the freeway and pulling ouver arabs an interrogating them. That is unjust. I agree with that.


Do you agree with racial profiling of blacks on highways?


I hate "racial profiling"...I do not agree with a black man getting pulled over on the freeway for being black. If a black man is driving a BMW and he is pulled over for that reason alone - that is wrong!
That is ridiculous and racist - BUT - a BIG BUT - a police officer must have the flexibility to question a an individual or individuals if the officer notices a suspicious act. What makes an act suspicious? I really do not know.but if there is training in place that has taught officers to recognize specific behavior and to act on it they must be able to do that without repercussion.

I completely agree with "Profiling" though. We must use "profiling" to eradicate the "cells" in the USA!

I hope that has cleared up you angrer and misguided assumption to what I have been posting. Relax.you have a lot of frustration. I am not the enemy Sunndoggy - I want that enemy's head on a spike!

Or perhaps helping to clean a Mosque near where i work in central NJ that was covered in grafitti and w/broken windows saying, "Go back to your country, dotheads?"(which is a statement that totally shows the ignorance of the people who did it)


That is a horrible thing to have happen. The people that did that are idiots and are just mad at something they can't control. That is probably why you have projected that anger towards me. If you are volunteering you are a great American. I was off base by saying "unlike you I..." but I posted that because I see all of these people sitting on their asses at NYU just playing the guitar and wishing they could be back in the 60s. I was wrong and I apologize for assuming and project that you were like that. My wholehearted apology applies.

Maybe more personal, an uncle of mine was killed years ago in India by terrorists in Kashmir on his honeymoon...


Those bastard that killed your uncle attacked Kashmir again today and they also attacked Israel with a car bomb. We need to go to exremes with the eradication of these bastards.

do you suggest we just drop a nuke on Afganistan and check back after the nuclear winter is over?


No - that is not what I want - but if there are biological and chemical plants...Tactical nuclear weapons must not be ruled out. We can't tolerate the end of the world being created in a beaker and they must know we will take the most severe action required if necessary. The use and threat of nuclear attack has helped keep the Israelis alive and functioning for quite some time.

[quote]I'm just as for violence as the next guy, in terms of destroying the terrorists who did this and doin

[adolescentmasturbator]

do not intentionally attack thousands of civilians ...and civials only like those coward bastards.

Our government has been directly involved in terrorist measures even in recent history. This fact is indisputable. Even the World Court found America guilty of terorrism. I'm not saying we shouldn't destroy the Taliban we should but we cannot condemn their acts while turning a blind eye to our government's actions.

Also it appears from the RAWA(Revolutionary Afghan Women's Association) statements that the Northern Alliance it seems that they too have done their own share of wrongdoing.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[Captain Rooster]

adolescentmasturbator

post the facts - if you want to be heard.

show me where we have been refered to as Terrorists

and i am not talking about your own posts

quote your sources - we do not attack CIVILIANS intentionally!


<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosternladin.jpg>
God Bless America!

This message was edited by LTRooster on 10-1-01 @ 11:20 PM

[HordeKing1]

ADOLESCENTMASTURBATOR - To paraphrase a mythical religious leader, "there are none so blind as those who will not see."

How much more so, of those who choose not to see.


http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[HordeKing1]

NJDMMOE - Ah yes, the June 5, 1967 war against Israel. Another attempt by all the countries surrounding Israel to wipe it off the map.

Egypt and Syria concentrated large-scale forces in the Sinai peninsula in preparation for an invasion. After amassing troops, the Egyptian president, Gamal Abdel-Nasser, expelled the UN Emergency force, maintaining the border, from the country.

On May 30, 1967, the Egyptian-Syrian military alliance was formerly joined by Jordan who placed its army on both sides of the Jordan river. Iraq followed suit and agreed to reinforce all troops in the alliance against Israel.

Other Arab cuntries involved in this alliance to exterminate Israel included Algeria and Kuwait.

Israel was completely surrounded and threatened by all it's neighbors.

Egyt's navey blockaded the straights of Tiran and attacked any Israeli ships, including commercial vessles (of course) that attempted to cross

Despite these acts of war by all these Arab states, the Israeli government tried to solve the crisis politically. Israel approached the Great Powers who had guaranteed the freedom of Israeli navigation, Britain and France. Both reneged on their commitment.

The President of the United States proposed a plan for breaking the blockade by an international armada. Israel agreed to wait and give the plan a chance.

Israel's decision to wait was taken despite the fact that it was well aware that the main threat had now become the Egyptian deployment in the Sinai and not the closing of the straits. When it became clear later that the political demarches had failed, Israel finally declared war on the Arab allies (who had declared war a few weeks earlier), promising to completely destroy Israel.

Prior to this, the number of terrorist attacks particularly by Syrians against Israeli farmers cultivating land in the demilitarized zone and on Israeli fishing boats in the Sea of Galilee dramatically intensified.

In addition, at the start of 1965 Palestinian terrorist organizations, under the patronage of both Syria and Egypt, began to operate against Israeli settlements.

Their attacks led to Israeli military reprisals against their bases located in neighboring countries. The Arabs were strengthened in their stand by the consistent support of the USSR, through both the supply of weapons and military advisers and through political support in the framework of the cold war between the East and West.

The concentration of forces and the surrounding of Israel by all Arab allies led the Arabs to believe that an opportunity had been created to realize their 19-year aspiration to destroy Israel.

Fortunately, as happened before, and as happened since, and will happen in all future wars, Israel kicked their sorry asses.

The "illegal" seizing of the Golan you refer to, was an act of tremendous valliantry by the Israeli Soldiers who attacked and captured this strategic area that had long been used to rain missles into the streets of Jerusalem.

Although Israel gave back most of the land it had captured during the war (what other country has EVER done that?) they did not give back the Golan because of the security threat it would pose.

If you're looking for "illegalities" (such a trite word to describe such a horrible crime look to the alliance of Arab states devoted to exterminating a state and it's people. Look to the countless terrorist actions perpetrated against Israel.

One can only hope that at long last the rightous fury of the world will be roused against the terrorists and war mongers.

See: http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/columns/rt091801.shtml


http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[HordeKing1]

SUNNY - I'm rather surprised by your attack on ROOSTER. Racial profiling is just one part of an overall profiling stratagy.

It is an undisputed fact that members of certain groups, aliances, political affiliations and yes races commit more of certain types of crimes than other groups. This has NEVER been disputed.

The only question under discussion is the degree to which we are willing to sacrifice our personal liberty for security.

Even prior to the WTC attack profiling was the main method used by law enforcement agnecies to catch criminals and to prevent crime.

Profiling is just a proven method of police work. Being stopped and asked some questions by some cops is a small price to pay for security.

As a teen I used to park in deserted lots and fool around. (Yeah, shocking, I know). Occasionally we were disturbed by cops checking to ensure that we were not up to any mischief and that everything was consensual. I always felt good knowing that the cops were out there. You know why? Because I wasn't doing anything wrong and had nothing to hide. After a few questions to me and my girlfriend and a check of my drivers license to make sure I wasn't an escaped criminal the cops invariably told us to have fun (or in one instance "get a room") and that was it.

Checking someone is not violating their rights, it's PROTECTING the rights of everyone else to LIFE, LIBERTY and the pursuit of happiness. How can one be free if they are at constant risk of being hurt?

The element of race is but ONE peice of the total picture. To use an obvious example a 80 year old Spanish woman, is much less likely to be profiled for assault than a 20 year old black male. On the other hand, an 80 year old white male is much more likely to be profiled for social security, or certain other types of fraud than a 80 year old black male.

Another obvious example, a young Arab male at an airport is much more likely to be questioned than an Arab at work, unless the working Arab is a member of a known terrorist group.

Age, gender, race, behavior, associations, location, schooling, and many other factors affect a descision on whom to profile.

Refusing to acknowledge racial realities, i.e. that more blacks than whites commit violent crime (again unquestioned by every black advocate) demonstrates racial bias, as it shows a need to treat that group differently than others.

Cops and other law enforcement agencies have the hardest jobs in the world. I'll go back to the black racial example again because it's something most of us can more readily understand.

Most crimes commited by blacks are committed against other blacks. Blacks have more to fear from other blacks than whites do from blacks. This goes very much against the fears we were socialized with, but it is again an undisputed fact, readily acknowledged by black leaders. However, it stops making sense at this point.

When cops pull a black over (apparant random racial profiling, but with other factors added in, which are not reported), the cops are more likely to be protecting blacks from crimes than whites. In fact they catch many criminals and prevent many crimes this way. But the cops (whether black or white!) are called racists for doing their job, and providing this essentail service to the black community. Ponderous.

Again, I used the black vs. white example because it is an issue we are all familiar with.

The same prinicples apply to all profiling no matter what it is based on. It's goal is to protect the lives of all. It is only a concern if you are doing something wrong.

Honest, law abiding citizens have nothing to fear, save greater security and peace of mind.





http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

This message was edited by HordeKing1 on 10-2-01 @ 3:34 AM

[The Blowhard]

The main problem confronting this country is illegal immigration and our "screen door" borders. We must shoot illegals crossing the border on sight, regardless of color.
I also think that there is a lot of self-righteous babble in this thread. The idealism is sickening. Israel is America's ally and friend. Rogue nations like Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan and others are the enemy. It's very simple. This is war people!
Our survival is at stake, and if we have to hurt some feelings by profiling possible enemies of the state, so be it.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"

[adolescentmasturbator]

quote your sources - we do not attack CIVILIANS intentionally!

Sure and those bombs in Southeast Asia that were dropped by American people didn't kill millions of people. This is so well known documentation isn't even needed.

I could give a lot more but I'll just give documentation for this case. <A HREF="http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/CIAtimeline.html">Here is a timeline of just CIA atrocities. BTW the CIA was heavily involved with SAVAK</A>

And HK a country that has received that it is lost is Israel. It's hypocritical of you to say that they shouldn't have.

HK I am not going to dispute Arab atrocities. However that doesn't mean Israel doesn't commit them on its own. Everyone calls Palestinians terrorist but hardly ever bothers to point out Israeli atrocities. When in fact all the major human rights organizations point out Israeli atrocities.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

[sunndoggy8]

Wow so much to reply and comment on...I'll do it tomorrow though, cause i need sleep.

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[HordeKing1]

ADOLESCENTMASTRUBATOR -

"Everyone calls Palestinians terrorist." That's becasue they are.

"Hardly [anyone] ever bothers to point out Israeli atrocities." You are STILL not listening. Any response to terrorism is an act of self defense and the terrorists who make responses mandatory for self-preservations are the ones who are responsible for any colatteral damage.

Unlike the Arabs who have resorted to outright war since 1948 (6 times!) and much terrorism to attempt to destroy Israel and every Jew living there (and then the rest of the world), Israel has never deliberately targeted civillians. People who shoot guns, and throw rocks and lob grenades and set fires are not civilians, but combatants.

These "major human rights organizations" are full of shit as amply demonstrated by their condemnation of America as well as Israel.

Fact is, the world needs oil. And people put up with crap when those that perpetrate it have needed resouces. If not for the oil, the world wouldn't kowtow to terrorist scum and the geographic and geopolitical map would look quite different.


SUNNY - I'm looking forward to reading your views.

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

[adolescentmasturbator]

HK it is undeniable some
Palestinians are terrorists
but generalizing the entire
people is just wrong on
your part.

Any response to
terrorism is an act of self
defense and the terrorists
who make responses
mandatory for
self-preservations are the
ones who are responsible
for any colatteral
damage.

That's what the Palestinian
terrorists themselves say.
But it doesn't justify it.
Terrorism in response to
terrorism is still terrorism.

Yeah HK I guess Amnesty
International and Human
Rights Watch have some
ulterior motives there.

BTW if there were no oil the
US government wouldn't
topple democratic
governments in the region
and support people the
likes of Saddam(back in the
80s).


I will get a sig pic...eventually

[Captain Rooster]

Can anybody tell me why people that hate America don't leave?

Why...because they can relax behind the very freedoms that America provides. Some of the soldiers that are deployed will fight and die and some Anti-American fuck will piss on their grave and tell everyone how unjust America is. How Fucking bad we are. How evil we are.

Why are people beating down the fences to get in - why - because we provide the greatest freedoms on earth.

Yes - debate and discussion and points may differ - BUT - if you don't love America and just bash her at every turn - GET OUT! We need the room!

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosternladin.jpg>
God Bless America!

This message was edited by LTRooster on 10-3-01 @ 5:40 PM

[OX Baker]

Funny. ITS FUNNY.
dealt with it all my life.
look up OX BAKER on the net!

It's like a heartpunch to the heart =)

[sunndoggy8]

First of all.reread all of my posts..I have not used the term "Racial Profiling" once!

Very true, you haven't used the word "racial". But that doesn't change the discussion and focus off of race, in my opinion. But that's my mistake in saying that you said that.

You are adding emotion and anger to the post based on the title of the thread

I added emotion and anger b/c of the thoughts that were expressed...as easy as I can laugh at a post, I can get angered by one too, just as anyone else can.

Serial killers, rapists, thieves, drud dealers, Terrorists .all have similar traits that can aid law enforcement to catch them.

I agree that there are at times similar traits, as you've stated here...but it again raises the point of exactly what the main factor is in profiling for terrorism.

That is ridiculous and racist - BUT - a BIG BUT - a police officer must have the flexibility to question a an individual or individuals if the officer notices a suspicious act. What makes an act suspicious?

I think that this is really what it comes down to. I'd really love to believe that it will come down to a comprehensive list of factors that will go into profiling an individual, but I have my doubts...that it will be more comprehensive than simply race and/or if the person is from a country that has dealt w/terrorism before. I think setting certain criterias, especially with race as a primary factor, propetuates racism and prejudice eventually. Not by all, but enough to be significant.

I really do not know.but if there is training in place that has taught officers to recognize specific behavior and to act on it they must be able to do that without repercussion.

By this to you mean without question, without checks or balances?

If so, then don't you think that there deserves to be a system that doesn't put absolute power of judgement into one institution? This is a main point of contention that I have a problem with, because our Attorney General is hoping to expand his powers in detaining suspects...without any evidence and for an indefinite time period, without ANY checks and balances on it.

And as much as the patriotism police are saying that our civil liberties are worth giving up, how far can it go...and who checks on whether it's going too far?

If that's not what you meant, nevermind.

That is probably why you have projected that anger towards me.

I am absolutely not projecting large amounts of misplaced anger at you, besides in that other thread, not this one...I don't consider this to be an arguement, but more a debate. The anger that you may sense is the anger at what was posted here, not anything that I am dealing with personally that is clogging my judgement and thinking.

The experiences that I cited weren't designed to get anyone(not saying that you did) to feel sorry for me or to gain an emotional reaction from anyone reading the post to favor my position, or anything at all like that. YOu asked what I was doing that was making a difference, and I felt that telling you what I've done, and some experiences, would satisfy and answer your question.

But nonetheless, I do sympathize and am sorry for those who you've lost in the attacks, and my heartfelt wishes go out to you, them, and their families.

To continue...

Tactical nuclear weapons must not be ruled out

I agree, but for some reason, the idea of numerous nuclear bombings, as well as they worked during WW2, kind of makes me worry. Not only for the billions of people who would be affected, but for the coalition that has been created thus far...I'd like to think having a unity of countries is a wonderful unique event that will be remembered forever as a turning point...but that could all be destroyed w/the use of nuclear weapons...but your point is still a good one, in terms of the extreme of what we can do....

Of terms of the issues you raised in how horrible the Taliban is, I agree.

Further

[vleon]

I'm a beaner, spic,
whatever. I have no
problems with a little
profiling here and there. I've
got nothing to hide, so
investigate away.


=-=-=
In the end, all of this means
nothing.

[sunndoggy8]

Horde King-

Even prior to the WTC attack profiling was the main method used by law enforcement agnecies to catch criminals and to prevent crime.

And also, to offend and harrass and embarass numerous innocent people of all races. It's not perfect, no system is, but just b/c it has had success doesn't make it morally right.

Profiling is just a proven method of police work. Being stopped and asked some questions by some cops is a small price to pay for security.

Oh that's all it is? A couple of questions? Horde King, even with your small situation, you cannot even fathom to compare that experience with being wrongfully arrested and detained, being accused of funding terrorism (as a recent doctor of Arab descent was), or any of the other wrongful acts of racial profiling.

I think it comes down to a funny little thing in that people don't seem to be bothered by it, as long as it's not happening to them, or as long as they won't be part of the mix that's being profiled.

Example: On a short report that I just saw by John Stossel on 20/20, he interviewed many blacks, and asked them if they thought double-checking people of arab-descent was right. They said sure, it's a great idea. Then Stossel asked, but what about blacks, who commit more crimes? And to that they said, no, that would be racist.

Um hello? What's the difference? And if anyone is ready to reply, that's cause only Arab's commit terrorism, think twice.

Racial profiling seems to be a quaint idea, primarily to those who have never experienced it or who are not part of the race. Like was said earlier in this post, if you're white, who cares? Whats the big deal? But if you have brown skin, it sucks for you!

The element of race is but ONE peice of the total picture.

It's the biggest piece! Tell that to the numerous people who were asked to get off an airplane for no other reason besides their brown skin. These aren't quick little 5-minute sessions of questioning, and off you go.

When cops pull a black over (apparant random racial profiling, but with other factors added in, which are not reported),

What other factors? That they may be driving a BMW? There were countless documented cases of race being the PRIMARY cause for traffic stoppages. Just as you can give me a case of a fair traffic stoppage, I can give you one of a racist stoppage.

Your black on black theory of police protection is interesting, statistically, but morally, it's still wrong. Can you guarantee that profiling won't change the perceptions of police officers towards arabs? Can you tell me that arabs will be fine with harrassment and constant racially-justified unfair treatment? Won't it bring distrust and hate towards the police by arab americans?

Uhhhg this reply fucking sucks too, cause i haven't been able to express my point well tonight.

But still, I think that there is a major theme to this arguement. Just because a group is given a reputation by a small percentage of criminals, is it morally right and/or fair to treat the entire group as criminals? I don't think it is.

I'd love to believe that race is only part of the list of criteria, but I am getting more and more convinced that it consists of the majority of the criteria.

It is only a concern if you are doing something wrong.

It just seems that being brownskinned is pretty wrong nowadays.

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[Godzilla]

Destroy the Middle East...problem solved. The world can go on living without fear of having a PLANE FLOWN INTO A BUILDING BY SOME FUCKING MUSLIM EXTREMIST ASSHOLE!

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This message was edited by Godzilla on 10-4-01 @ 12:37 AM

[Captain Rooster]

I added emotion and anger b/c of the thoughts that were expressed...as easy as I can laugh at a post, I can get angered by one too, just as anyone else can.


Well at least I never lose my temper and act out of emotion while posting...hehe...lol!

Sunny - consider us friends...I respect your posts more as they begin to calm down...mine have too.

By the way..we probably pissed WALRUS off with all of the quoting we do...UH OH!


GODZILLA - that sig pic ROCKS!!!

P.S. - I agree totally in a checks and balances program that ensures that the intended use of profiling is followed. That's what internal affairs is for.

And I'm spent...on this thread!

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God Bless America!
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This message was edited by LTRooster on 10-4-01 @ 1:24 AM

[HordeKing1]

SUNNY - Your reply was well thought out and articulate and you raise valid points.

I've thought about your responses and have a few additional thoughts. You raise the issue of the morality of profiling, noting that even if it is a successful method of crime prevention (and capture criminals) it may not be morally right. Given that profiling works, isn't it morally wrong NOT to use it? Wouldn't the crimes that would have been prevented, had profiling been in place, be squarely on the head of those preventing profiling. Murder, rape, robbery, arson and more have been prevented by profiling. I question whether it is morally responsible to stop this practice.


You question whether profiling results in a few questions being asked, or if further steps, including being arrested, detained, and accused of funding terrorism results. In the vast majority of cases, all that is involved is a license check and a few questions. Certainly, some responses send up red flags that call or even demand further questioning and detention. The cops wouldn't be protecting us if they didn't take suspects to the station for questioning. Being that this is America, home of the lawsuit, most who are "wrongfully" arrested sue the police department. Virtually none of these suits are successful, because probable cause exists to detain the people who are detained. There are many checks and balances in place to prevent any rouge cops from getting out of control, as you saw in that most horrible incident with Abner Louima. When something wrong goes on, we know it.

I agree with your assessment that people aren't bothered by things that don't directly involve them, but that sorry aspect of human nature and the NIMBY attitude is not what we're addressing here.

You're very understandably concerened about the racial aspect of the profiling. However, I'll reiterate that there are many aspects that go into the entire profiling package. There are several excellent books on the subject of criminal profiling available at the public library. They can give you far more information about the many other aspects used than I can in this short space.

How can you say with certainty, that the police protection of society including blacks from black on black crime is morally wrong? If it works, and it does, why is it immoral?

To continue further, statistically, blacks commit far more crime than their percentage of the population. Is every black profiled? Of course not! Certain blacks that meet specific criteria are profiled more often than those who don't. Why do you think the same won't be applied to Arabs or any other ethnic group?

Have you ever been stopped for a random police check? I have. It was a seatbelt check of every 3rd or 4th car and an inspection of license and registration. It was predominantly a white Jewish and Italian neighborhood. No one was upset about the stop, but of course, the people not wearing seatbelts were pissed that they got ticketed. Life goes on. It wasn't a personal affront to anyone there.

Your reply was fine, as I said above, well thought out and articulate. You got your points accross.

To address your final point, you raise the issue of whether it is fair to condemn everyone in a group for the actions of a few. I don't beleive anyone is saying that. What I am stressing is that race is one of many factors leading to profiling and when appropriate, profiling is a crucial law enforcement tool and should continue to be used.


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[HordeKing1]

An interesting proposition:

To ensure we never offend anyone - particularly fanatics intent on killing us - airport screeners will not be allowed to profile people. They will continue random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail and 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips.

Pause a moment and take the following test.

In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Norwegians from Ballard;
(b) Elvis;
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women; or
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
(a) A pizza delivery boy;
(b) Crazed feminists screeching that being able to throw a grenade beyond its own burst radius was an unfair and sexist requirement in basic training;
(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day; or
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
(a) Luca Brazzi, for not being given a part in "Godfather 2;"
(b) The Tooth Fairy;
(c) Butch and Sundance who had a few sticks of dynamite left over from the train thing
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers;
(b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wee Willie's women problems;
(c) the WWF, to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the Merciless;" or
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed by:
(a) Bugs Bunny,
(b) the Supreme Court of Florida trying to outdo their attempted hijacking
of the 2000 Presidential election;
(c) Mr. Bean; or
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

How'd you do? Did you detect a pattern that would indicate we'd better take
a close look at a certain type of individual who might be boarding an
airplane with something on his mind other than "What's the in-flight movie?"

You think so?

Horrors! You're nothing more than a closet racist who could never be hired as an official federal airport screener.




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