Kerry/Purple Hearts... Self Inflicted Wounds?

[BandofBrothers]

I know this sounds ridiculous, but yesterday it was brought up by a journalist on Hardball yesterday who quoted a book that a few of Kerry's comrades commented that it was highly questionable that Kerry recieved valid gunshot wounds on a day when there was little to no gunfire. She repeatedly implied that Kerry had shot himself to escape duty, and said that this was in some ways worse than Bush's duty in the Alabama airforce. Chris Matthews had dismissed this as BS. So even I am a bit skeptical, but it was just an interview. Although I have seen it mentioned only once, I just wanted to know what other people think about this accusation.

B.o.B.

This message was edited by BandofBrothers on 8-20-04 @ 1:55 PM

[HBox]

That interview was great. Malkin as trying to pull the old "I'm gonna try to insinuate something, but not actually say it" gag, and Matthews called her on it. It was wonderful. She got what she deserved.

And if you read today's NY Times, there's an article about this controversy. They talked with the two people (Runyon and Zaladonis) Malkin said accused Kerry of inflicting his own wounds. As it turns out, they were basically tricked into signing the Swift Boat Vets affadavit (EDIT: Not the affadavit, but a misleading account of one of Kerry's Purple Hearts), and they say they were under enemy fire. The accusation that Kerry's wounds were self inflicted came from someone else, who Runyon and Zaladonis say weren't on the boat.

More lies........

Here's the article, but registration is required. (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?ei=5090&en=8afa4fded4046b86&ex=1250654400&partner=rssuserland&pagewanted=all&position=)

Patrick Runyon, who served on a mission with Mr. Kerry, said he initially thought the caller was from a pro-Kerry group, and happily gave a statement about the night Mr. Kerry won his first Purple Heart. The investigator said he would send it to him by e-mail for his signature. Mr. Runyon said the edited version was stripped of all references to enemy combat, making it look like just another night in the Mekong Delta.

"It made it sound like I didn't believe we got any returned fire," he said. "He made it sound like it was a normal operation. It was the scariest night of my life."

The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr., a retired rear admiral who says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on which Mr. Kerry was injured that night in December 1968. He contends that Mr. Kerry wounded himself while firing a grenade.

But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr. Kerry, Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third crew member. "Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to three," Mr. Runyon said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he had not recalled Mr. Schachte until he had a conversation with another veteran earlier this year and received a subsequent phone call from Mr. Schachte himself.

Mr. Schachte did not return a telephone call, and a spokesman for the group said he would not comment.



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This message was edited by HBox on 8-20-04 @ 2:10 PM

[HBox]

If you want to watch this excerpt of the interview, click here. It's hilarious. (http://www.oliverwillis.com/node/view/329)

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[jocefus]

all this hatin on kerry's vietnam experience needs to stop already.... at least he actually went to vietnam and saw combat unlike most of the politicans in washington including the current president and his fellow ass hats.. give this a rest already... attack kerry on something else, like the busted grill on his daughter...

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[jeffdwright2001]

Now that was a funny video.

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[kc7586]

No one except Kerry knows what really went on there, but there are records that Mr. Kerry refuses to release. Can it be? Is he hiding something? Like maybe hes a dirty lier?

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[HBox]

No one except Kerry knows what really went on there

Well, actually, the these two guys seem to know what happened, the guy whose life Kerry saved has a good idea what happened, the poeple on his boat with him seem to know what happened (as oppoed to the people who WEREN'T), and the Navy seemed to know enough to give him a bunch of medals.

But besides that, it's a mystery.

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[kc7586]

You know what else is a mystery? How much Kerry could have paid the assholes in his boat to say hes some big fuckign hero. People suck, money rules all.

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[Mike Teacher]

These baseless stupid pathetic attacks from non-credible quasi-news sources...

by the way I heard Kerry was at My Lai and Tet and that they based the Drill Sgt in Full Metal Jacket on him.

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[jeffdwright2001]

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::I hear conspiracy theories::

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[Doomstone]

No one except Kerry knows what really went on there, but there are records that Mr. Kerry refuses to release.


What records?

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[HBox]

How much Kerry could have paid the assholes in his boat to say hes some big fuckign hero.

OK, Stretch Armstrong.

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[kc7586]

What records?


Oh, nothing, just the military records the government has. Just the same one that Kerry would have to sign something for them to be released.

But until those are released, read thishttp://images.amazon.com/images/P/0895260174.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

And this Kerry lies (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39831)

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[Mike Teacher]

You cant trust any of these fucking websites.

Anyway, I heard about Kerry and the Grassy Knoll; just a rumor I thought, till I did a search on the JFK Assasination Films:

http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/kerry3

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[kc7586]

Fine don't trust the site, read the book. The book Kerry wants banned from being sold because he doesn't want people to be able to read the truth.

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Good girls are bad girls that dont get caught.
Life's a bitch.....then you strangle one.

[HBox]

Oh, nothing, just the military records the government has.

Yeah, somebody oughta look for those. (http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html)

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[HBox]

The book Kerry wants banned from being sold because he doesn't want people to be able to read the truth.

Where did you hear John Kerry say "I want this book banned!"

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[jeffdwright2001]

Oh, nothing, just the military records the government has.

Yeah, somebody oughta look for those. (http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html)

Sure, but you had to go to one of those obscure web sites to find it.

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[mikeyboy]

Where did you hear John Kerry say "I want this book banned!"



I'll bet she links to this. (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40062)

Even if the characterization of the Salon article is correct, it's a Kerry staffer saying that the publisher should withdraw the book, not ban it. Big difference.

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This message was edited by mikeyboy on 8-20-04 @ 4:06 PM

[Doomstone]

Oh those damning records, no wonder Kerry wants to keep them secret! (http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Fitness_Reports.pdf)

October 19, 1967, evaluation from Captain Allen W. Slifer:
A top notch officer in every measurable trait. Intelligent, mature, and rich in educational background and experience, ENS Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question one of the most promising.

September 3, 1968, evaluation from Captain E.W. Harper, Jr.:
LTJG KERRY is an intelligent and competent young naval officer who has performed his duties in an excellent to outstanding manner.

December 18, 1969, evaluation from LCDR George M. Elliott:
In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.
LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program.
During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

Evaluation co-signed by Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott on January 28, 1969, and March 17, 1969, respectively:
... exhibited all of the traits of an officer in a combat environment. He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta.

March 2, 1970 evaluation from Admiral Walter F. Schlech:
... one of the finest young officers with whom I have served in a long naval career.


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[TheMojoPin]

I'll fart for freedom, wherever there's trouble...

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-20-04 @ 4:54 PM

[TheMojoPin]

it was highly questionable that Kerry recieved valid gunshot wounds on a day when there was little to no gunfire.

Which is SO ironic, since the entire conflict in Vietnam was based on the Gulf on Tonkin "incident," where a US warhsip received "little to no gunfire," but LBJ managed to convince Congress he needed the full powers of war because of it anyway.

So with the people making hooplah over Kerry's not-actually-hidden records, do they even care the slightest that there's basically nothing left of Bush's record of service, since most of it was destroyed?

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Aggie]

So with the people making hooplah over Kerry's not-actually-hidden records, do they even care the slightest that there's basically nothing left of Bush's record of service, since most of it was destroyed?


There's so many other issues to make an educated decision about. This stuff is what turns me off to politics in general but oh well. I'll ignore the crazies.

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[TheMojoPin]

Yeah, what Aggie said. Both Bush and Kerry's military service records should have bumps in the road a long time ago.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[keithy_19]

Well...I look at it this way. Who do you trust, a cowboy, or lurch?

John Kerry said that guys were torturing innocent people over there. John Kerry protested the war, but that is the only thing that he is really campaigning on. That and 'Bush is an idiot blah blah blah'. That's sad if that's all you can base your campaign on.

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[TheMojoPin]

Well, when you're trying to get a guy out of office and take his job, it's probably a good idea to point out how bad a job that guy did.

I don't think I'm reaching with that.

And Bush is no fucking "cowboy." Let's cut that shit right now. Look at his family, for Christ's sake. They're WASPier than all get out, and from New England.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-20-04 @ 5:08 PM

[HBox]

I just saw on CNN that the Kerry campaign just filed a complaint with the FEC about these ads.

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[BandofBrothers]

I found the article where it says that he had a self inflicted wound.

"December 2, 1968 John Kerry experiences first intense combat; receives first combat related injury."

After Kerry's M-16 jammed, Kerry picked up an M-79 grenade launcher and fired a grenade too close, causing a tiny piece of shrapnel (one to two centimeters) to barely stick in his arm. Schachte (senior officer) berated Kerry for almost putting someone's eye out. There was no report of any hostile fire that day (as would be required), nor do the records at Cam Ranh Bay reveal any such hostile fire. No other records reflect any hostile fire. There is also no casualty report, as would have been required had there actually been a casualty. To the surprise of both Schachte and the treating doctor, Louis Letson, Kerry managed to keep the tiny hanging fragment barely embedded in his arm until he arrived at sickbay a number of miles away and a considerable time later, where he was examined by Dr. Letson. When Kerry appeared at sickbay, Dr. Letson asked, "Why are you here?" in surprise, observing Kerry's unimpressive scratch. Kerry answered, "I've been wounded by hostile fire." Accompanying crewmen then told Dr. Letson that Kerry had wounded himself. Dr. Letson used tweezers to remove the tiny fragment, which he identified as shrapnel like that from an M-79 (not from a rifle bullet, etc.), and put a small bandage on Kerry's arm.

The following morning Kerry appeared at the office of Coastal Division 14 Commander Grant Hibbard and applied for the Purple Heart.

Hibbard, who had learned from Schachte of the absence of hostile fire and self-infliction of the "wound" by Kerry himself, looked down at the tiny scratch (which he said was smaller than a rose thorn prick) and turned down the award since there was no hostile fire. Amazingly, Kerry somehow "gamed the system" nearly three months later to obtain the Purple Heart that Hibbard had denied. How he obtained the award is unknown, since his refusal to execute Standard Form 180 means that whatever documents exist are known only to Kerry, the Department of Defense, and God. It is clear that there should be numerous other documents, but only a treatment record reflecting a scratch and a certificate signed three months later have been produced. There is, of course, no "after-action" hostile fire or casualty report, as occurred in the case of every other instance of hostile fire or casualty. This is because there was no hostile fire, casualty, or action on this "most frightening night" of Kerry's Vietnam experience. Dr. Louis Letson agreed with Grant Hibbard. Kerry's injury was minor and probably self-inflicted.

B.o.B.

[TheMojoPin]

Please link the source of that.

Another shady part of this is the clear implication that he ended up with a self-inflicted wound ON PURPOSE.

Also, everyone seems to forget the man received three of these damn Purple Hearts, and think that this incident, if true, somehow negates the other two.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-20-04 @ 5:16 PM

[bigbaldirish]

Well...I look at it this way. Who do you trust, a cowboy, or lurch?

John Kerry said that guys were torturing innocent people over there. John Kerry protested the war, but that is the only thing that he is really campaigning on. That and 'Bush is an idiot blah blah blah'. That's sad if that's all you can base your campaign on.


and bush does similar things, "we haven't had a terrorist attack since 9/11." let's play that up and keep it fresh in the memory. and john kerry is a waffler.
it does boil down to your cowboy vs. lurch thing.

the difference this time is that the cowboy (and by cowboy, that is solely the way Bush want's to be perceived) goes in shooting, with no plan for escape is a dead cowboy. and if you don't understand the analogy, please note that why the iraqi regime didn't go down under the first bush is the fact that, there is no possible way to get out of Iraq.

i'd rather have a proven tactical leader whose dull in the presidency, then a C student at harvard who will take chances with our lives any day.

and keithy i may be wrong, but it seems to me your a Bush supporter, and while i know that you couldn't be called in for the draft, you have to have friends and family that could be. be careful what you say at a young age, vote for bush is a vote for the draft. i'm safe from the draft by only a year, if it does get reinstated. and even then, maybe they'll extend it. i don't know if you've been reading the paper, but there calling back people in who have served there time, that is the first step back to the draft.

fighting for your country in afghanistan to get someone who killed 3000 civilians in one shot is patriotic.

fighting to keep the peace in a country that does not want you there, as we learned in the clinton years, is idiotic.

and honestly neither is best for the job, just pick the lesser of two shitty choices.



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[HBox]

Hibbard, who had learned from Schachte of the absence of hostile fire and self-infliction of the "wound" by Kerry himself, looked down at the tiny scratch (which he said was smaller than a rose thorn prick) and turned down the award since there was no hostile fire.

Please read the excerpt I posted from the NY times article. The other two men on the boat don't remember this guy being there. One of the men with kerry says there was hostile fire, and it was one of the most frightening nights of his lfie. Furthermore, this article is highly misleading. The severity of the injury doesn't matter. If he was injured, and it was from enemy fire, he gets a Purple Heart. That's it.

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[bigbaldirish]

They're WASPier than all get out



keep them away from duke..

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[TheMojoPin]

fighting to keep the peace in a country that does not want you there, as we learned in the clinton years, is idiotic.

Wow, excellent point.

Did we learn NOTHING from Clinton?

Apparently not even those that hated him did.

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1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

This is a republican-financed and orchestrated smear job that in every case in which there is an official record paper-trail of the actions cited the record has directly contradicted what these guys have said. Furthermore these guys themselves have in the past directly contradicted what they are now saying. There is a dirth of evidence that these clowns have manipulated the statements of some of the veterans they have tried to recruit, and many of them who's contradictions have been exposed have gone back to hiding from opportunities to get their stories straight. These guys have answered evidence with crazy-talk and ducking the questions. Along with the evidence presented in today's NYT, that HBox linked to, read yesterday's Washington Post, ( <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html" target="_blank">Records Counter a Critic of Kerry;
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire
</a> ), for more evidence of fraud by their members.

This is nothing but a well-orchestrated conspiracy theory created to sow doubt in the public minds about an aspect in the campaign in which Kerry has a clear advantage, the candidates' military record. In order to buy what these guys are selling you have to ignore the documentary and the bulk of the testimonial evidence, and you have to believe that Kerry has super-human powers of manipulation of military admistration and clairvoyance to see the future. These fucking guys disgust me because, besides fabricating this massive lie to effect the outcome of an election, they are serving to undermine the whole system of awarding medals to people who risk their lives in war for the country. Because of the actions of these people the men and women serving in Iraq and Afghanistan will have to be fearful of going into public life in the future because of the precident being set now that the medals they earned can be questioned for political purposes and with little or no supporting evidence. These men believe that Kerry did an injustice to the soldiers of Vietnam in is opposition to the war back then, but now they're doing an injustice to all of our soldiers, now and in the future, by devaluing the meaning of combat medals and service in general. I only wish we were a thoughtful enough people to say that this kind of shit won't work, but I know it will have an effect. I hope John McCain continues to lead in countering this group's actions because we as a country need him right now. And we need thier supporters to care enough about the country and the military to look objectively at whether these guys are telling the truth or not. Bush would also do himself some good to condemn them, and sooner rather than later.

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[Yerdaddy]

linked Yerdaddy's pic. (http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/08/19/politics/campaign/20040820swift_graph.gif) It was so big that it mucked up the layout and became illegible when shrunk.

hugs & kisses,
mikeyboy

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Fuck it from behind.

This message was edited by mikeyboy on 8-20-04 @ 6:47 PM

[keithy_19]

The draft is not going to be reinstated. So don't start that a vote for Bush is a vote for the draft. That's stupid. Even if the draft were to be reinstated, I would willingly go and fight for my coutnry, as would my family.

I'd rather have a President who doesn't flip flop on every issue, like John Kerry.

And here's an honest question. Why would John Kerry use his war record in this campaign, when he came back from the war and lied about his fellow soldiers who were still risking their lives?

One of the soldiers who is agaisnt Kerry actually worked to get John Mccain elected.

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[LiquidCourage]

If those Purple Hearts were self inflicted, then that's just comedy gold.

[HBox]

Why would John Kerry use his war record in this campaign, when he came back from the war and lied about his fellow soldiers who were still risking their lives?

FYI: When he said all that stuff about atrocities in front of Congress, he was speaking about people who had testified to commiting them. In other words, he was just repeating what people had already admitted doing.

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[Yerdaddy]

we're doomed

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Fuck it from behind.

[HBox]

we're doomed

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[JerryTaker]

My friends and I have been so depressed and pissed and worried that all these people actually believe this one-line, soundbyte bullshit that comes out of the Bush campaign. This thread helps prove it, especially by the younger posters who are just parroting the propoganda.

Plus they REFUSE TO READ when it's been linked over and over, refuted, knocked down, and exposed, and they refuse to believe that, because its not on TV...

Except maybe on the Daily Show... (as I have last nights show on right now)

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[Yerdaddy]

I'll post this in here myself: <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1506&u=/afp/20040820/ts_alt_afp/us_vote_kerry_vietnam_040820214246&printer=1" target="_blank">Kerry takes legal action against Vietnam critics</a> Good. There's evidence of stron ties between the Bush campaign, (and family), and the leadership and financers of this group. If there is coordination between the two then it's illegal and the complaint should serve an important function in having the laws enforcing the law. Personally, I think there needs to be a libel lawsuit brought against these people if they can't produce evidence supporting their claims. There needs to be accountability efforts to control the increasingly ugly and dishonest nature of politics in this country.

Equally, if the Bush campaign can prove coordination with MoveOn.com and Michael Moore, then they should take the same action. People need to fight back and make this kind of horseshit politics counterproductive.

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[alexc]

it was nice of Pres. Bush to defend Austin, TX from the Vietcong. It was so brave of him.

This message was edited by alexc on 8-20-04 @ 7:34 PM

[LordJezo]

[quote]it was nice of Pres. Bush to defend Austin, TX from the Vietcong. It was so brave of him.[quote]

Ah, okay, I see. It's not okay to say anything about Kerry and his service but it's okay by everyone to make fun of the National Guard.



------------------------
I KISS YOU!

[HBox]

No, it's not cool to bash the National Guard. That was a stupid comment.

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[alexc]

i'll bite....
George W. Bush supporters has trouble candidates who are vietnam vets.. plain and simple....
in the year 2000, there were bush surrogates who slimed John Mccain service and character in South Carolina primary.
It ranged from calling him unstable . They said he was "brainwashed" by the vietcong. These groups called him "anti christian". Lastly, using the race card...they claimed that he had "illegitamate" black child. And now, these surrogates sliming another vietnam vet. as for as i know, this president hasn't disavow these surrogates 2000.

BTW, I also found unseemly what al gore did in 2000 against bill bradley. al gore to put it lightly... insinuated that he did not support civil rights. It was criminal what he did. i found the class war fair to divisive and stupid.

[Recyclerz]

Why won't the mudslinging stop?


It works! (http://www.allsci.com/bdt.html)

Let's face it. If Bush had done anything right in his first term the ads would be all about that. But he hasn't. (Actually he's done two things right, diesel air regs and health savings accts., but they are too small in comparison to his fuck-ups to even get the scales to budge.) So the only hope for W is to slime his opponent so that the marginal Kerry voters get fed up and stay home.

It ain't working this time my Republicano amigos.

The Emperor has no clothes.



<IMG SRC="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US">
[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]

[Yerdaddy]

Ah, okay, I see. It's not okay to say anything about Kerry and his service but it's okay by everyone to make fun of the National Guard.

What matters is whether the evidence supports the claims. Bush was in the Texas National Guard, according to everyone. The anti-Kerry stuff is based on the word of political propagandists and is not supported by the evidence, including their own statements and actions. How hard is that to understand????

That was a stupid statement, but it was based on accepted fact.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[Yerdaddy]

The Emperor has no clothes.

and I used to like to see naked bush. I'm gay.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[Doomstone]

If there is coordination between the two then it's illegal and the complaint should serve an important function in having the laws enforcing the law.


http://www.mydd.com/files/admin/FL_Swiftboat.jpg

<center><img src="http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/snoopy114025/ds2_sig.jpg">
M1 rules!
</center>

[bigbaldirish]

The draft is not going to be reinstated. So don't start that a vote for Bush is a vote for the draft. That's stupid. Even if the draft were to be reinstated, I would willingly go and fight for my coutnry, as would my family.

keep telling yourself that the draft won't come. and you and your family would go without the choice, it's not a question of willingness to go. it's a question of choice.
and maybe you believe in this war. maybe my 19 year old cousin doesn't? that's not the question. or the point. we live in a country were choice is not a "luxury" for the most part choice is a part of your life.
if you want to lose your choice then that's a problem. and the people retiring from the military now after doing there set amount of time, are having it taken away from them.
first part of the draft. they chose to do the stints in any of the branches, for a set amount of time, after they were done with that time (unless they were in combat or active ) they weren't in them any more. now the law has been changed to where they cannot retire until 2 months after they are done, or 2 months before the battalion gets sent out... that's 4 months.
don't bug me for the article, i can't find it i don't remember the headline and look it up at the source. i did a search and the articles that came up weren't the one i read, but if you want to look it up at the source i got it at.

www.newsday.com

granted the newspaper has a liberal slant on it, but if it had a conservative slant this wouldn't get published.



<img src="http://hometown.aol.com/societyofirish/images/newbbisig.jpg" width=300 height=100></htpdiv>
www.societyofmyera.50megs.com (http://www.societyofmyera.50megs.com)
listen here (http://www.purevolume.com/societyofmyera)
[center] Whoring my band one post at a time

[HBox]

More proof. (http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=1692)

Although I do highly regret the source of this info, this seems to be a straight reporting piece. They requested the Bronze Star citation of another one of the Swift Boat vets, Robert Lambert. Furthermore, while Thurlow has suggested that Kerry was filing erroneous reports to get himself a Bronze Star and that's why Thurlow's citation said there was enemy fire, Lambert is listed as the witness Thurlow's citation, and Lambert's citation only supports that account.

Take it as you will, considering the source. Here is the full text of the citation, according to the Nation:

For meritorious achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict against Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam on 13 March 1969. Inshore Patrol Craft [PCF] 51, with Petty Officer Lambert serving as Leading Petty Officer, was conducting a SEA LORDS operation in the Bay Hap river with four other boats. The boats were exiting the river when a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft, inflicting heavy damage to the boat and wounding the entire crew. At the same time, all units came under small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. Inshore Patrol Craft 51 immediately proceeded to aid the damaged Inshore Patrol Craft, where the Officer-in-Charge [Larry Thurlow] leaped aboard to render assistance. Petty Officer LAMBERT assumed command of Inshore Patrol Craft 51 and directed accurate suppressing fire at the enemy. While administering first aid to the crew of the damaged Inshore Patrol Craft, Inshore Patrol Craft 51's Officer-in-Charge was knocked overboard. Petty Officer LAMBERT, without hesitation, directed Inshore Patrol Craft 51 alongside his Officer-in-Charge, where, from an exposed position and with complete disregard for his personal safety, he pulled him aboard. Petty Officer LAMBERT then returned his Officer-in-Charge to the aid of the damaged Inshore Patrol Craft and remained in command of Inshore Patrol Craft 51 until all units cleared the river. Petty Officer LAMBERT's coolness, professionalism and courage under fire significantly contributed to the rescue of his Officer-in-Charge and the damaged Inshore Patrol Craft and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[HBox]

Ouch. (http://www.johnkerry.com/video/console.php?video=082104_old_tricks)

I don't remember if Bush actually apologized for that, so this MIGHT be way out of context, but that's one hell of an ad.


http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[Yerdaddy]

<a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-040821kerry,1,6814873.story?coll=chi-news-hed" target="_blank">Swift boat skipper: Kerry critics wrong - Tribune editor breaks long silence on Kerry record; fought in disputed battle
</a>

<a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-040821rood,1,1611037.story?coll=chi-news-hed" target="_blank">Anti-Kerry vets not there that day</a>

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[LiquidCourage]

It seems like the only people who actually give a shit about Kerry's war record are the people who are already dead set on voting for Bush anyway. It seems like stupid propaganda that will be overlooked anyway.

[HBox]

It seems like stupid propaganda that will be overlooked anyway.

I hope so, but it has worked before and it is still VERY VERY low. If Bush would just denounce it it would be much less of an issue. But when somebody tries to look like they are against something but continually refuse to actually say so, it's obvious what side they're on. This 527 stuff is a distraction. Bush can't stop the Swift Boat ads and Kerry can't stop MoveOn ads. But they can call these goups on them when they go too far. Kerry has done that. Bush hasn't.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[Yerdaddy]

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20193-2004Aug20.html" target="_blank">Although the Swift boat group says it spent just $500,000 airing its first ad in three states, a new poll by the University of Pennsylvania's National Annenberg Election Survey found that more than half of voters questioned had seen or heard of the ad, often on cable news shows. Most distressing to the Kerry camp, the survey found that 44 percent of independent voters considered the ad very or somewhat believable. </a>

They're doing it because they have the money, the organization, and because it works. Which is probably the most disturbing part of the whole thing, that and the undermining of the meaning of combat metals in general.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[TheMojoPin]

combat metals

Shockingly, bronze KICKED titanium's ass!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

Hey, look, someone who was actually there WITH Kerry. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5771731/)

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[LiquidCourage]

At the end of the day it's all about who's going to send/ keep us in Iraq. Most Marines I know plan on voting for Kerry, despite this reputation of everyone in the military being some super Republican.

[Teenweek]

Where was Kerry when Bush was being killed for being AWOL from the Texas guard, a traitor, worse than Hitler, a terrorist, a killer, just to name a few. It was great when Kerry clapped and cheered when Whoopi cracked derogatory jokes about Bush but flip flopped when the shit hit the fan.

Kerry is mad and wants it to stop because these ads are hurting him because people are believing them.

This election SHOULD NOT be about who or who did not serve 35 years ago. It should be about who can lead us best in teh war on terror and improve our economy. Until all the moveon.org ads and others like it stop, I have no problem at all with the swift boat ads.

Kerry is a pussy hypocrite who can't take the heat. If you can't take the heat , get out the kitchen.

As Jesse jackson, always says, Stay out Da Bushes.

[TheMojoPin]

Where was Kerry when Bush was being killed for being AWOL from the Texas guard, a traitor, worse than Hitler, a terrorist, a killer, just to name a few.

By organizations offically tied to Kerry's election team? Kerry isn't saying Bush is supposed to stop ALL negative comments about him...only those that are half-truths and lies coming from an organization with ties to the official Bush re-election machine.

It was great when Kerry clapped and cheered when Whoopi cracked derogatory jokes about Bush but flip flopped when the shit hit the fan.

What the hell? How does this even compare to the swift boat ads? One was a private fundraiser, the other is a national ad campaign designed to be seen and heard by as many people as possible. One is a bunch of jokes, the other is potentially lying and slandering a man's past and military history to all of America, and making direct accusations about his life, his actions and his character, and stooping to unheard of new lows.

Kerry is a pussy hypocrite who can't take the heat. If you can't take the heat , get out the kitchen.

Kerry and the Democrats have zero to do with moveon.org. They don't finance the organization or create those ads, and thusly have zero authority to stop them. The swift boat ads were created by a group that is being shown to have official ties, in both personel and money, with the Republicans, and, specifically, the Bush re-election team, and as such, Bush has the complete power and, some might say, obligation to stop such ads. NOTHING the Democrats have OFFICIALLY released during this campaign even comes close to the smear tactics engaged with the swift boat ads and the like. Your comparison treads no water whatsoever.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-22-04 @ 5:33 PM

[BandofBrothers]

Wow Kerry's support among vets has dropped 10 percent according to the news because of this ad that is being aired in the battleground states... These states are won by a matter of a few towns...

B.o.B.

[TheMojoPin]

According to which news source?

Even if this is accurate, it's no surprise. Even if Bush pulls the ad, the damage has been done. If they're actually not true, Kerry should pursue legal action, like he's been talking. It would be the only way to effectively counterract these things.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[HBox]

Lies+Money=bad

He was referring to a CBS/NY Times poll. And it's in comparison to a poll taklen right after the convention, so it's not as bad as it might seem.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

This message was edited by HBox on 8-22-04 @ 5:52 PM

[Teenweek]

Kerry and the Democrats have zero to do with moveon.org. They don't finance the organization or create those ads, and thusly have zero authority to stop them. The swift boat ads were created by a group that is being shown to have official ties, in both personel and money, with the Republicans, and, specifically, the Bush re-election team, and as such, Bush has the complete power and, some might say, obligation to stop such ads. NOTHING the Democrats have OFFICIALLY released during this campaign even comes close to the smear tactics engaged with the swift boat ads and the like. Your comparison treads no water whatsoever.



I call Bullshit. Moveon.org and Michael Moore are basically on the democratic payroll. After Fahrenheit 9/11 came out, I thought Michael Moore was writing kerry's speeches. What right does Kerry have in asking what was Bush doing for those 7 minutes. kerry was probably somewhere in teh Senate with his Herman Munster head tucked in between his legs. Oops, I apologize. Kerry doesn't vote in the Senate. He has missed almost 90% of his votes. I guess Ted Kennedy and Al Sharpton don't have anything to do with kerry's campaign either. I guess Kerry put a stop immediately when all the ads came out calling Bush a draft dodger and a coward. Or how about george Soros who said he will do whatever it takes and will spend whatever money he has to defeat George Bush.

Like I said I am against attacks on both sides. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Let's cut the bullshit. Both sides are wrong. BOTH SIDES ARE TELLING LIES.

This election has been a mudslinging contest from day one. Each side has thrown crap at the other hoping it will stick.

[HBox]

I call Bullshit. Moveon.org and Michael Moore are basically on the democratic payroll

Why don't you prove that. Show how Democrtic Party organizations are handing out flyers for Moveon like Republicans are doing for Swift Boat vets. Show a Kerry campiagn official appearing in a MoveOn ad. Show anything, and then we can talk.

The point here is there was something to those Bush National Guard claims. He did disappear for a while. This is known.

The Swift Boat vets, however, have been disproven by eyewitnesses, official Navy documents, and even their own past statements. They shit their credibility down their leg in a week, and there's still no end to their crap in sight. As soon as Bush released his military record, the story went away. And when MoveOn tried to bring it up again after these ads appeared, Kerry denounced them.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[Yerdaddy]

this
Bush was being killed for being AWOL from the Texas guard, a traitor, worse than Hitler, a terrorist, a killer, just to name a few.It was great when Kerry clapped and cheered when Whoopi cracked derogatory jokes about Bush but flip flopped when the shit hit the fan.

this
Kerry is a pussy hypocrite who can't take the heat.
and this
Moveon.org and Michael Moore are basically on the democratic payroll. After Fahrenheit 9/11 came out, I thought Michael Moore was writing kerry's speeches. What right does Kerry have in asking what was Bush doing for those 7 minutes. kerry was probably somewhere in teh Senate with his Herman Munster head tucked in between his legs. Oops, I apologize. Kerry doesn't vote in the Senate. He has missed almost 90% of his votes. I guess Ted Kennedy and Al Sharpton don't have anything to do with kerry's campaign either. I guess Kerry put a stop immediately when all the ads came out calling Bush a draft dodger and a coward. Or how about george Soros who said he will do whatever it takes and will spend whatever money he has to defeat George Bush.
followed by this
Like I said I am against attacks on both sides.
is fucking hysterical! The polical version of the bacon double cheeseburger with a diet coke.



Seriously, do you not see any problems with any of the shit you just spewed - spun, exaggerated and just plain made up?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[smeagol]

Sen. Kerry has made his Vietnam service the centerpiece of his campaign.

Are we supposed to take his statements and those of his buddies without question?

That aside - even if Kerry had chose not to run on his service record, these 250 or so swift boat vets are entitled to speak. They were there, they served this country. They deserve respect and honor due to all those who have ever served in the armed forces. To me, I don't distinguish the cooks from the commandos. Honorable service, period.

Who are you or I to question their integrity?

I want to see Sen. Kerry answer with facts, not the accusations and complaints he has responded with so far. He should also release ALL his service records, not just the ones he wants you to see.

His attempt to turn the focus into a him vs. Pres. Bush debate on Vietnam service, or to dismiss other vets as doing Pres Bush's 'dirty work' seems at best to be a diversionary tactic. Sen. Kerry, I do not doubt your honorable service, but YOU are the one running for president and YOU need to answer the questions. He is to be held to the highest of standards, and he is the one with everything to prove.

Pres. Bush has released all his service records, became a trained jet pilot, and was honorably discharged. He has answered the questions. More importantly, he has served as commander-in-chief for over three years. Judge him on that as you see fit.

But, again, Sen. Kerry is running, and wants you to elect him president, based on his Vietnam service more than any other factor. He needs to lay it all out, plain and simple, all the facts and details that support his argument that you should elect him because of his service.

We also need the facts and details about his years as an anti-war activist and his 19-year Senate record. Just because he chooses not to highlight or discuss these things (or perhaps more so) does not give him a pass.

[TheMojoPin]

Smeagol is 100% correct.

Kerry SHOULD lay his military record on the table, especially if it'll so effectively counter the smear campaign against it as he's claiming. Bush got heat for NOT revealing all of the details of his military service (Key files have apparently been "accidentally destroyed" over the years), and Kerry so provide contrast to that by being open.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[HBox]

I honestly don't know what they want released that he hasn't released yet. I mean, pay records wouldn't mean anything; we know Kerry was in Vietnam, even the liars aren't saying he wasn't. If there is something else that would help, he should, but what is there?

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[TheMojoPin]

If he has ANYTHING he can let out there, he should release it. It'll give them less ammo to work with. Look, if he has nothing to hide, he has nothing to hide. I'm not saying it's RIGHT...but it would be a pro-active move that would potentially shut up a lot of these naysayers, or at least defuse what they're saying.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[FUNKMAN]

but it would be a pro-active move that would potentially shut up a lot of these naysayers, or at least defuse what they're saying


most likely not by a long shot... it's just disgusting and an embarrassment to the country as a whole the strategy and tactics candidates use to get elected... they can pretty much say anything to each other and not be held accountable. nobody will know the truth except for the people that were there...

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/guests/fm2_sig.jpg">

[Yerdaddy]

When did this become a "he said/she said" again? Look, most of the claims against Kerry have the documentation out in the public already, AND NONE OF IT SUPPORTS THE SWIFT BOAT VETS FOR TRUTH'S CLAIMS! The last four days has produced a dirth of documents, previous Kerry campaigns in which some of these guys said exactly the opposite of what they are now saying, and clear evidence of close ties to wealth supporters of the Bush administration and family. It simply is not the case that there are two opposing sides and the truth lies halway inbetween, or cannot be honestly discerned because there isn't enough information in the public record. Right now these guys have only their own word to put up against the guys who were in an even better position to know the facts, against the official documentary record, and against their own previous statements. You can still say there is no way to know 100% for sure what happened, buy you cannot honestly say that the evidence points to these guys telling the truth.

Also, the accusation that Kerry is making his war record the centerpiece of his campaign is no longer a fair accusation now that this group has made destroying his war record, (and that of everyone who served with Kerry on these missions), a well-financed, well-orchestrated, and effective campaign. He is now in a position where he has no choice but to defend that record or lose.

And one more thing, (big surprise), I would normally say Kerry should release everything, but in this case it would be openning himself up to even further attacks by a dishonest smear campaign that has to be expected to use anything regarding Kerry's service to defeat him. And what is being asked for now is not directly related to the specific events in question. I would think he was an idiot if he unilaterally opened up his full record at this point.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 8-22-04 @ 10:23 PM

[42nd-delay]

Regarding Kerry and MoveOn.org:

At McCain's urging, Kerry condemns ad attacking Bush's Vietnam-era service in Guard (http://www.boston.com/dailynews/230/politics/At_McCain_s_urging_Kerry_conde:.shtml)

------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

[FUNKMAN]

the shit is getting even thicker...

they want to give Blair a Medal Of Honor for Iraq and degrade Kerry's medals... i am totally convinced that there are no bounds and it's a shame...


Blair refuses to travel to US to pick up Bush war honour

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1514&e=10&u=/afp/20040822/wl_mideast_afp/britain_us_iraq_040822112549

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/guests/fm2_sig.jpg">

[Yerdaddy]

Republicans are politicizing and trivializing the very concept of combat medals for the sake of winning the presidency for their party. What a disgrace.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[canofsoup15]

It's sad that this election is based on fucking Vietnam Medals and whether they were "deserved" or not.

Fucking, I don't even like Kerry, but this right-wing attacking his medals shit is ridiculous. Since when did respecting the opposition in a political debate stop? It happens all the time, especially when it's a Kerry supporter belittling and Bush supporter before they even know their stance on anything, or their intelligence level.

I'm starting to hate politics.

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AphexTwinD2.gif>

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Stuck in believe there is a lie, Promises promise an eye for an eye.
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This message was edited by canofsoup15 on 8-23-04 @ 1:16 AM

[Doctor Manhattan]

Wasn't Bush Partying and drinking while Kerry was in Vietnam "shooting himself"?

<a href="http://members.cox.net/cousinken/itsabouttime.mp3"><img src="http://members.cox.net/nicksporsche/bushchen.jpg" border=0></a>

[Doctor Manhattan]

This election SHOULD NOT be about who or who did not serve 35 years ago...Kerry is a pussy hypocrite who can't take the heat. If you can't take the heat , get out the kitchen.

It shouldn't be. Then why are the people who didn't serve (Bush still can't prove where he was, Cheney got 5 deferment, Rumsfeld had 7!) funding the commercials that are attacking Kerry's service with lies:


Larry Thurlow, who commanded a swift boat alongside Kerry's, signed a sworn affidavit in July that Kerry was "not under fire" and the story Kerry told that led to his Bronze Star was a "total fabrication."

But Thurlow's military records referred repeatedly to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" during the incident on March 13, 1969, The Post reported. Thurlow also won a Bronze Star that day; the citation refers to "enemy bullets flying about him."


I don't understand how Republicans aren't totally outraged by the crap the Bush camp does.

<a href="http://members.cox.net/cousinken/itsabouttime.mp3"><img src="http://members.cox.net/nicksporsche/bushchen.jpg" border=0></a>

[canofsoup15]

I don't understand how Republicans aren't totally outraged by the crap the Bush camp does.


I am....

Because (hypothetically), even if they could prove all of Kerry's medals un-earned, it still doesn't beat the fact that he was actually IN Vietnam.



It shouldn't be. Then why are the people who didn't serve (Bush still can't prove where he was, Cheney got 5 deferment, Rumsfeld had 7!) funding the commercials that are attacking Kerry's service with lies:


That's (I'm assuming) part of the reason that they are attacking. If they bring his Vietnam record down to the status of their level (which is damn-near impossible, but they're gonna try) then noone will give a shit about something that they shouldn't give a shit about in the first place.

I hope that made sense.

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AphexTwinD2.gif>

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Stuck in believe there is a lie, Promises promise an eye for an eye.
We've got something to reveal, No one can know how we feel.</marquee><Font Color = White>

[Doctor Manhattan]

I hope that made sense.


I think it does.

It's so weird that Chris Matthews seems to make sense to me. That shouldn't happen, he's a nut.

<a href="http://members.cox.net/cousinken/itsabouttime.mp3"><img src="http://members.cox.net/nicksporsche/bushchen.jpg" border=0></a>

[Recyclerz]

I don't understand how Republicans aren't totally outraged by the crap the Bush camp does.


Because the Republicans, at least the ones running things, know what it takes to win an election. And the smear campaign is keeping many other issues off of the front pages, TV news, internet headlines, etc. And what might those other issues be?



The fact that every premise for starting a pre-emptive war against Iraq has been disproved
The fact that we're now stuck in Iraq where we can't do what is necessary to "win" without inflaming a real religious war with a billion Muslims and we can't leave without looking like pussies
The fact that while the two items above are in effect we keep having our troops killed almost every fucking day
The fact that this administration is both cutting taxes and increasing spending (mostly to its favored industries) thereby running huge deficits that everyone under 45 will be paying off for the rest of their natural lives
The fact that with oil at almost $50 a barrel this administration keeps buying more to put into the "strategic reserve" thereby helping to keep the price propped up


Believe me there's more, but the Republicans don't want to talk about any of that. They want to call John Kerry a lying pussy.

The thing that pisses me off the most is that they are so fucking good at it. The press and we, as citizens, never fail to get distracted by any of the shiny objects they show us just before we're about to stumble into the truth.

The Dems may not be as good at this as the Republicanos but at least we're starting to fight back. My favorite quote of the weekend



"Senator Kerry carries shrapnel in his thigh as distinct from President Bush who carries two fillings in his teeth from his service in the Alabama National Guard, which seems to be his only time that he showed up," John Podesta, former chief of staff in the Clinton White House, said on ABC's "This Week


By the way, the Emperor has no clothes.



<IMG SRC="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US">
[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]

[Teenweek]

Now that a real American hero calls Kerry a pussy and a liar, than that is what he is. Bob Dole actually earned his purple heart. Kerry not only bled for his 3 purple hearts he did not even get a bloody nose.

[El Mudo]

Larry Thurlow, who commanded a swift boat alongside Kerry's, signed a sworn affidavit in July that Kerry was "not under fire" and the story Kerry told that led to his Bronze Star was a "total fabrication."
But Thurlow's military records referred repeatedly to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" during the incident on March 13, 1969, The Post reported. Thurlow also won a Bronze Star that day; the citation refers to "enemy bullets flying about him."


Thats based on the citation for Thurlow's medal, which was based on an after-action report written by Kerry...

which brings up the more interesting question of who wrote the citation?

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<marquee>Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum </marquee>
Thanks Monsterone!!

This message was edited by El Mudo on 8-23-04 @ 2:35 PM

[HBox]

Thats based on the citation for Thurlow's medal, which was based on an after-action report written by Kerry.

They claim, with no proof whatsoever, that Kerry wrote those reports. If you want to know how credible these guys are, look at how they were pointing out reports that were labeled K.J.W. and saying that Kerry wrote them. nevermind that Kerry's initials are JFK.

And with that, I'm done with this mess. I'm as guilty as anyone of making this an issue over the last few days, but we should be talking about real shit, not Vietnam. I'm sick of this.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[TheMojoPin]

FYI, Kerry will be on "The Daily Show."

I'd take bets that he'd be duller than Clinton, but the odds are dead even, so what's the point?

Now that a real American hero calls Kerry a pussy and a liar, than that is what he is.

Yeah, but we've got an even bigger pussy in office now, and he's surrounded by pussies, so maybe we're ready as a country for someone who's still a pussy, but nearly as much of a pussy as GW.

You DO realize this current administration, outside of Powell, is as pussy as Clinton, right? And besides, your "side" picked the current pussy over McCain, so that just makes them all pussies by default.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Teenweek]

Yeah, but we've got an even bigger pussy in office now, and he's surrounded by pussies, so maybe we're ready as a country for someone who's still a pussy, but nearly as much of a pussy as GW.

You DO realize this current administration, outside of Powell, is as pussy as Clinton, right? And besides, your "side" picked the current pussy over McCain, so that just makes them all pussies by default.



Yes, but Bushis not basing his entire presidency on being a war hero in Vietnam. Kerry is. If Bush bragged about his service as a Texas national Guard than yeah, call him a pussy. Everything about kerry has to do with Vietnam. Doesn't he have 19 years in the Senate to talk about. Oops, one he does not vote, 2 when he does vote he votes against our armies.

[TheMojoPin]

Kerry made his Vietnam issue a main focus. Bush's side made it THE focus. And even with that, they've produced NOTHING that proves contrary to what Kerry has claimed about himself outside of innuendo and gossip. And since they've made it even MORE of a focus, the military records of Busn and co. should come back. They want to play the bullshit game of unecessarily making this the primary focus? Well, they better have something to counter it themselves.

And why is Dole's word the only one you need? McCain has been saying for weeks now that he respects Kerry as a man, a politician and a war veteran, and that his service was legit. McCain certainly qualifies as both a Republican and a war hero, yet you're seemingly dismissing everything he's had to say just because you don't WANT to hear it. It's one man's word vs. the other's. Why does Dole automatically get the thumbs-up?

And the "voting against our troops" is such bullshit.

Scroll to article headlined, "AP buys Bush spin on Kerry's defense record." (http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2004_03_14_archive.html)

He hasn't voted for package bills with military issues tacked on just so the Republicans can guilt anyone who DOESN'T vote for them, just like you're doing here.

With all the legit reasons to criticize Kerry, it's ridiculous when you come here and just parrot the party line so verbatim.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-23-04 @ 3:32 PM

[Teenweek]

Why don't you prove that. Show how Democrtic Party organizations are handing out flyers for Moveon like Republicans are doing for Swift Boat vets. Show a Kerry campiagn official appearing in a MoveOn ad. Show anything, and then we can talk.



Does this connection count? (http://www.gopusa.com/news/2004/april/0408_moveon_exley_kerry.shtml)

Besides Moveon.org or Kerry news Network (CNN), where has it been proven that these swift boat guys are liars (http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=6969)

[Recyclerz]

Now that a real American hero calls Kerry a pussy and a liar, than that is what he is. Bob Dole actually earned his purple heart. Kerry not only bled for his 3 purple hearts he did not even get a bloody nose.


As long as we're pulling shit from our asses and calling it gold or at least "fact" here's a nice internet body slam on Senator Dole and his war record.

Dole's War Record: The First Casualty in War is the Truth (http://www.tedellis.net/dole-article.htm)

Interesting snippet:
Dole's first wound. It was in the first of these night patrols that Dole received the wound for which he was awarded his first Purple Heart. He ruefully confesses in his 1988 autobiography that his wound was self-inflicted: "As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn't a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg -- the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart." The wound was so minor that he led another patrol two nights later. He does not mention that others were also injured by his misguided throw -- which Woodruff's account attributes to an enemy machine gun.

Now, am I putting this on-line because I believe it? No. Bob Dole is a war hero that served this country well and deserves to be honored for it. I'm just trying to show how easy it is to slime somebody in the public eye whom you don't like. So don't be thinking you're bringing the truth to the benighted masses with bullshit allegations.

I am a little disappointed in Sen. Dole in that, having been slimed himself in a directly congruent way, he's willing to whore himself out for the pimps in his party.


Did I mention that the Emperor (W, if you're not checking your scorecards) has no clothes?




<IMG SRC="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US">
[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]

[canofsoup15]

Did I mention that the Emperor (W, if you're not checking your scorecards) has no clothes?


You have mastered the art of reciting the same phrase over and over and over again. Coincidentally a phrase that NOONE UNDERSTANDS.

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AphexTwinD2.gif>

<marquee behavior=alternate><Font size="1" Color="blue">
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[silera]

Yes, but Bushis not basing his entire presidency on being a war hero in Vietnam.


No, he's just the war president, without the benefit of actually having experienced being in war, but with the fucking audacity to question the valor and integrity of a man that volunteered to go into the fray.

I don't care the Bush didn't go to Vietnam, but I find it repulsive that he will play along in the campaign to smear someone that was there and obviously came back with a few lessons learned.

The whole scenario is repugnant and twisted, and all of you that can sit there and defend it do so only because you've decided that winning is the end and the means don't mean shit.



<center>http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/silerass.jpg
<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

[TheMojoPin]

Why don't you prove that. Show how Democrtic Party organizations are handing out flyers for Moveon like Republicans are doing for Swift Boat vets. Show a Kerry campiagn official appearing in a MoveOn ad. Show anything, and then we can talk.



Does this connection count? (http://www.gopusa.com/news/2004/april/0408_moveon_exley_kerry.shtml)

Besides Moveon.org or Kerry news Network (CNN), where has it been proven that these swift boat guys are liars (http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=6969)

Wow, that first "revelation" was so not "revealed" in the first place that it was even reported on by those awful "liberal media" outlets. Exley LEFT moveon.org and then joined the Kerry campaign. In simple math, he STOPPED working for one organization and STARTED working for another. The trick would be finding people who actively work for BOTH groups at the same time, crossing resources and agendas, as has been revealed with the Bush campaign and the swift boat group.

The second article does zero except trumpet the swift boat group's accusations in even MORE vague terms and descriptions. Point to one SENTENCE in that article that validates or proves a SINGLE source or witness presented thus far by the swift boat group. It's a fucking op-ed piece with the author telling us we SHOULD believe the swift boat group's charges, without even coming close to telling us WHY.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-23-04 @ 3:49 PM

[Recyclerz]

You have mastered the art of reciting the same phrase over and over and over again. Coincidentally a phrase that NO ONE UNDERSTANDS.


With the repetition I'm emulating my hero Karl Rove.

As to the source of the phrase I give you:
The Emperor's New Clothes (http://www.deoxy.org/emperors.htm)

Jeez, didn't you kids have to listen and/or read this stuff when you were little? :)



<IMG SRC="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US">
[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]

[silera]

You have mastered the art of reciting the same phrase over and over and over again. Coincidentally a phrase that NOONE UNDERSTANDS.


It's only the moral of required reading for kindergarteners.


<center>http://hometown.aol.com/bonedaddy5/images/silerass.jpg
<font size="3" color="red">AND WHAT?</font></center><font color="FBF2F7">

[Furtherman]

No, he's just the war president, without the benefit of actually having experienced being in war, but with the fucking audacity to question the valor and integrity of a man that volunteered to go into the fray.


"I wish I wasn't the war president. Who in the heck wants to be a war president? I don't." -George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 6, 2004

Bushspeak (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm)

The fact that Bush avoided Vietnam, didn't show up for his physical, shady National Guard service (whatever record there was - accidentally destroyed - oops) - should give everybody the right to yell "Shut the fuck up" to him and any of his supporters who question Kerry's service.

Many people don't like either candidate. Then I say, vote for the one with character, integrity, and who is brave, the stuff that leaders are made of.

Bush has one thing in common, kinda - he is, after all, a character.


<IMG SRC="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=7">
...with thanks to JustJon

This message was edited by Furtherman on 8-23-04 @ 3:54 PM

[canofsoup15]

I heard that same story told about a baseball bat being made, I thought it could've been that but I wasn't sure it was awhile ago.


To be honest I never passed second grade.


And I'm 8 years old.



Well, 7 and three fourths. But close enough.

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AphexTwinD2.gif>

<marquee behavior=alternate><Font size="1" Color="blue">
Stuck in believe there is a lie, Promises promise an eye for an eye.
We've got something to reveal, No one can know how we feel.</marquee><Font Color = White>

[TheMojoPin]

When I got to vote this Novemeber, I'm just kicking the polling machine in the balls and walking out.

And the more I think about it, the more those sites Teenweek listed to piss me off. I mostly just head for the major news sites (AP, BBC, Fox, CNN, MSNBC), with a semi-regular jump to a site like SpinSanity.com (http://www.spinsanity.com), but that's about it. Never...NEVER have I had some ridiculous urge to find some blatantly Leftist or Right-swinging "news" site that props up thousands of editorials as actual news. What's the fucking point? Are people THAT ridiculously party-blind and paranoid that they can't POSSIBLY get their news from someone unless they're practically dictatorial in their political allegiance? If you're going to criticize the major news networks for "bias," how could you have the audacity to then link to something like the two sites above? I mean, come ON...Teenweek, are those the kind of sites where you MAINLY go for your news?

Where's the consistency?!?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..." SpinSanity.com (http://www.spinsanity.com)

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-23-04 @ 4:03 PM

[canofsoup15]

When I got to vote this Novemeber, I'm just kicking the polling machine in the balls and walking out.


There's a candidate for people like you.

His name is RALPH NADER!

http://www.votenader.com/

The sad part: I'm not kidding.

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AphexTwinD2.gif>

<marquee behavior=alternate><Font size="1" Color="blue">
Stuck in believe there is a lie, Promises promise an eye for an eye.
We've got something to reveal, No one can know how we feel.</marquee><Font Color = White>

[TheMojoPin]

When I got to vote this Novemeber, I'm just kicking the polling machine in the balls and walking out.


There's a candidate for people like you.

His name is RALPH NADER!

Hey, I did it last time, and I'm not afraid to do it again.

I'll defend Kerry against shit-slinging like what's going on in this thread, but I'm nowhere near wanting to vote for him.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[canofsoup15]

I'LL fucking defend Kerry on this shit slinging.

And I align myself with the monkeys chucking the poo.

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AphexTwinD2.gif>

<marquee behavior=alternate><Font size="1" Color="blue">
Stuck in believe there is a lie, Promises promise an eye for an eye.
We've got something to reveal, No one can know how we feel.</marquee><Font Color = White>

[Recyclerz]

Yes, but Bush is not basing his entire presidency on being a war hero in Vietnam.



I'm a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign-policy matters with war on my mind. Again, I wish it wasn't true, but it is true. - George W. Bush Feb. 8, 2004


Transcript (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4179618/)

Why the "War President" Is Under Fire (http://www.time.com/time/columnist/klein/article/0,9565,591270,00.html)

[Edit: & What Silera said in her 3:40 post. I'm going to let her fight my battles for me. I'm getting carpal tunnel and arthritis trying to keep up with you kids.]


<IMG SRC="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US">
[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]

This message was edited by Recyclerz on 8-23-04 @ 4:09 PM

[JerryTaker]

he is, after all, a character.


"Just because you are a character, doesn't mean you have character"

-The Wolf (Harvey Keitel) Pulp Fiction

<br><B>
[The Patriot Act has decreed this sig indecent, and has put JerryTaker under suspicion]</B>

[Leadbottom]

The Democrats always start the mudslinging. It's just the facts. And as for Kerrys lies about his war record what about his horrible record in the Senate, when he did show up?

[TheMojoPin]

You mean his voting record WHILE he's been campaigning as president. His record was consitent prior to that, yet that preface is never added. But it is pretty ridiculous. He should pull a Dole and step down...it's the classy thing to do. Not doing so reflects poorly on his performance as a senator, and implies he doesn't have the confidence to really go all the way while he's running for president.

The Democrats always start the mudslinging. It's just the facts.

Where are these "facts?"

Based on watching almost nothing but Comedy Central, The History Channel and the news networks, the Republican attack ads have outnumbered and the Democratic ones at LEAST 3 to 1. They're almost literally bombarding the public with these things. "Shock & awe" political smears, if you will.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Furtherman]

And as for Kerrys lies about his war record what about his horrible record in the Senate, when he did show up?


*squints*

...as for Kerrys lies about his war record.....

...what about his horrible record in the senate....

...as for Kerrys lies about his war record.....

...what about his horrible record in the senate....


Sorry, get back to me when that makes sense.

As for Republicans and facts, I know there are many, many Republicans that are truthful. I even voted for them.

But in Bush's administration? Please. Can they smell the facts their shoveling?

<IMG SRC="http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=7">
...with thanks to JustJon

[Yerdaddy]

Now that a real American hero calls Kerry a pussy and a liar, than that is what he is. Bob Dole actually earned his purple heart. Kerry not only bled for his 3 purple hearts he did not even get a bloody nose.

Bob Dole: "And I think he's -- I said months ago, "John, don't go too far." And I think he's got himself into this wicket now where he can't extricate himself because not every one of these people can be Republican liars. There's got to be some truth to the charges."

So where there's smoke there's fire? That's the extent to which Dole has considered the facts behind these charges? He's giving credence to their accusations without considering the facts; whether they're true or not. He's just assuming they're at least partially true. He should be more responsible than that, because he's just made himself an accomplice to this smear campaign.


Larry Thurlow, who commanded a swift boat alongside Kerry's, signed a sworn affidavit in July that Kerry was "not under fire" and the story Kerry told that led to his Bronze Star was a "total fabrication."
But Thurlow's military records referred repeatedly to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" during the incident on March 13, 1969, The Post reported. Thurlow also won a Bronze Star that day; the citation refers to "enemy bullets flying about him."


Thats based on the citation for Thurlow's medal, which was based on an after-action report written by Kerry...

which brings up the more interesting question of who wrote the citation?


<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html" target="_blank">Swift Boat Accounts Incomplete And Flawed</a>

Who Initialed Navy Report?

Much of the debate over who is telling the truth boils down to whether the two-page after-action report and other Navy records are accurate or whether they have been embellished by Kerry or someone else. In "Unfit for Command," O'Neill describes the after-action report as "Kerry's report." He contends that language in Thurlow's Bronze Star citation referring to "enemy bullets flying about him" must also have come from "Kerry's after-action report."

O'Neill has said that the initials "KJW" on the bottom of the report "identified" it as having been written by Kerry. It is unclear why this should be so, as Kerry's initials are JFK. A review of other Swift boat after-action reports at the Naval Historical Center here reveals several that include the initials "KJW" but describe incidents at which Kerry was not present.

Other Swift boat veterans, including Thurlow and Chenoweth, have said they believe that Kerry wrote the March 13 report. "I didn't like to write reports," said Thurlow, who was the senior officer in the five-boat flotilla. "John would write the thing up in longhand, and it would then be typed up and sent up the line."

Even if Kerry did write the March 13 after-action report, it seems unlikely that he would have been the source of the information about "enemy bullets" flying around Thurlow. The official witness to those events, according to Thurlow's medal recommendation form, was Radioman 1st Class Robert Lambert, a member of his crew. The Post was unable to trace Lambert before publication of this article.

In a telephone interview, the head of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, who commanded all Swift boats in Vietnam, said he believed that Kerry wrote the March 13 after-action report on the basis of numerical identifiers at the top of the form. He later acknowledged that the numbers referred to the Swift boat unit, and not to Kerry personally. "It's not cast-iron, I agree with you," he said.

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html" target="_blank">Records Counter a Critic of Kerry - Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire
</a>
[quote]Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report t

[TheMojoPin]

Hmmm, that post quite possibly made TOO much sense.

Quit trying to stuff facts down our throats, mister!

We only like baseless generalizations around here!

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-23-04 @ 4:59 PM

[42nd-delay]

From a story titled "Bush Criticizes Anti-Kerry Television Ad":


That means that ad, every other ad," he said. "I can't be more plain about it. And I wish - I hope my opponent joins me in saying - condemning these activities of the 527s. It's - I think they're bad for the system. That's why I signed the bill, McCain-Feingold.


A few things on this...

1. He basically said the same thing as he's been saying - that all the ads are bad. He may be referring to it specifically, but it's the same thing. The reason McCain has asked him to condemn it is not cause it's a 527, but cause it's "dishonest and dishonorable." So, Bush hasn't really criticized that ad specifically, but the news seems to have bought it.

2. Bush is saying that 527s should be banned - so that means only political parties and candidates should be able to pay for ads? The problem with 527s is that some might have ties to a campaign, which is illegal. And since it's illegal, the FEC should do something about it. Unfortunately, they're traditionally one of the worst gov't agencies when it comes to enforcement. McCain again:

"There is no conceivable justification for the FEC to fail to act," said Sen. John McCain, the Arizona Republican who was a primary author of the ban on unlimited "soft money" in federal election" (http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040818-111238-2004r.htm)

3. Bush hasn't been calling for an end to 527s - in fact, he had the opposite position when he signed it:

I also have reservations about the constitutionality of the broad ban on issue advertising, which restrains the speech of a wide variety of groups on issues of public import in the months closest to an election. I expect that the courts will resolve these legitimate legal questions as appropriate under the law. (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020327.html)

------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

[TheMojoPin]

Too little, too late from the Bush camp?

President Bush on Monday criticized a commercial that accused John Kerry of inflating his own Vietnam War record, more than a week after the ad stopped running, and said broadcast attacks by outside groups have no place in the race for the White House. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5797164/)

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

Ditto what 42nd-delay said. The problem is not that it's a 527 group, the problem is that it's a massive campaign of bald-face lies. But I guess he really doesn't see what's wrong with that.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[Doctor Manhattan]

The Democrats always start the mudslinging. It's just the facts.

always? really?

<a href="http://members.cox.net/cousinken/itsabouttime.mp3"><img src="http://members.cox.net/nicksporsche/bushchen.jpg" border=0></a>

[Se7en]

Too little, too late from the Bush camp?

President Bush on Monday criticized a commercial that accused John Kerry of inflating his own Vietnam War record, more than a week after the ad stopped running, and said broadcast attacks by outside groups have no place in the race for the White House. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5797164/)

Nothing new.

Bush & the RNC have been asking for the Democrats to jointly call for the FEC to ban ALL ads by 527s for months now, as this letter from Jan 12, 2004 shows. (http://rnchq.org/News/Read.aspx?ID=3799)

Not surprisingly, Kerry & the Dems have been the ones slow to respond, seeing as 527s have been propping up their entire party for the majority of this year.

It was a smart political move by Bush today. Kerry simply tried to use the momentum from the SBVT stuff against Bush, and it failed. Miserably.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/7_sig.gif" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos.
I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>

[TheMojoPin]

It was a smart political move by Bush today. Kerry simply tried to use the momentum from the SBVT stuff against Bush, and it failed. Miserably.

So it couldn't possibly have been the ads were THIS shy of being outright lies, and Kerry simply wanted that known?

And which Democratic ads have been shown to be as blatantly false and vicious as the swift boat ads?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Yerdaddy]

Too little, too late from the Bush camp?

President Bush on Monday criticized a commercial that accused John Kerry of inflating his own Vietnam War record, more than a week after the ad stopped running, and said broadcast attacks by outside groups have no place in the race for the White House. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5797164/)

Nothing new.

Bush & the RNC have been asking for the Democrats to jointly call for the FEC to ban ALL ads by 527s for months now, as this letter from Jan 12, 2004 shows. (http://rnchq.org/News/Read.aspx?ID=3799)

Not surprisingly, Kerry & the Dems have been the ones slow to respond, seeing as 527s have been propping up their entire party for the majority of this year.

It was a smart political move by Bush today. Kerry simply tried to use the momentum from the SBVT stuff against Bush, and it failed. Miserably.

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/7_sig.gif" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos.
I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>
And you and Bush both missed the point and dodged the moral choice. Yay America. Yay all combat veterans.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[Se7en]

It was a smart political move by Bush today. Kerry simply tried to use the momentum from the SBVT stuff against Bush, and it failed. Miserably.

So it couldn't possibly have been the ads were THIS shy of being outright lies, and Kerry simply wanted that known?

Please. The SBV ads have, at the minimum, some truth to them.

And which Democratic ads have been shown to be as blatantly false and vicious as the swift boat ads?

Hell, let's try with virtually every ad on moveon.org. How about that one ad that says that Bush "knew" "knew" that there were no WMD in Iraq and the like (this is an actual ad from moveon.org - and BTW that ad and many others which are, at the least, gross distortions of the truth are very much ON the moveon.org website RIGHT NOW).

And please don't say that moveon.org are not "Democratic" ads, because they are in the same way that this Swift Boat stuff is a Republican ad.

This type of nonsense has been happening to Bush for the better part of a YEAR now, but he hasn't really made the stink about it that Kerry has.

You know what all of this reminds me of? The Red Sox after they lost Alex Rodriguez.

Remember how their owner, after going on an unprecedented spending spree, said that maybe a luxury tax is a good idea because of how much NY spent to get A-Rod?

This is the reaction of Kerry. He's had a YEAR of 527's blasting Bush (does anybody care to mention how tiny a percentage of the overall pie conservative 527's have?) --- but the moment ONE hits him, he cries foul.

And you and Bush both missed the point and dodged the moral choice.

To quote Homer Simpson, "Think about the irony."

<center><img border="0" src="http://se7enrfnet.homestead.com/files/7_sig.gif" width="300" height="100">
<br>
<br>
Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos.
I look forward to an orderly election that will eliminate the need for a violent bloodbath. </center>

This message was edited by Se7en on 8-24-04 @ 9:28 AM

[42nd-delay]

Just to clear it up...

President Bush said on Monday that political advertisements run by a broad swath of independent groups should be stopped, including a television advertisement attacking Senator John Kerry's war record. But the White House quickly moved to insist that Mr. Bush had not meant in any way to single out the advertisement run by veterans opposed to Mr. Kerry. (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/24/politics/campaign/24swift.html?hp)

I still haven't heard a good reason why 527s should be banned. If a group comes out with an ad that is untruthful, then they should be criticized for it. If a group makes an ad in close connection with a campaign, that's illegal. Otherwise, what's wrong with a group of people paying for an ad expressing their opinion?

------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

[Yerdaddy]

Please. The SBV ads have, at the minimum, some truth to them.

Yeah, they got their names right on the ads. Fuck you! This page is five pages deep and nothing these guys have claimed has been substantiated. Don't come on here making a general statement with no basis without expecting to get tooled on.

Hell, let's try with virtually every ad on moveon.org.
If there are so many moveon.org ads that are as blatantly false and malicious as these Swift Boat ads then why the fuck aren't there any links to them in your post? Should take about 15 seconds to find one and link to it if it's virtually all of them. Or maybe you were lying to? You were making that shit up because you want the ads to work regardless of the truth, or who they harm. You're pathetic.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[canofsoup15]

If there are so many moveon.org ads that are as blatantly false and malicious as these Swift Boat ads then why the fuck aren't there any links to them in your post? Should take about 15 seconds to find one and link to it if it's virtually all of them.


It has a direct link to this ad:
https://www.moveon.org/hooded/ads/

How come NOBODY ever heard of this report? Maybe cause it isn't real? By the way it's on the front page, TWICE.

It has a direct link to this ad:
http://www.bushin30seconds.org/view/04_small.shtml

Which comes from this site:
http://www.bushin30seconds.org/
Which seems to be made totally to smear the crap out of the president.

It seems they have completely re-done the site, probably because of the controversy over the link to Kerry, because all of the older ads I've seen on there seem to be taken down.

The point is, there have been literaly hundreds of ads just beating the crap out of president Bush, every strand of integrity he ever had has been beaten on, and the majority of the nation agrees with these ads. I have seen ads relating Bush to Hitler on that moveon.org site and its balls to the fucking wall ludicrous. Why don't they just start running ads that say:

"George Bush is satan, he'll eat your soul, he'll eat you children, he eats babies for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and he intentionally lies about something that he knows wouldn't be a good thing to lie about."

However, one ad against Kerry and everyone goes apeshit? Are they scared it's having an effect on the american people? Smart people who know about politics arent buying it, and the people that are can be changed with the promise of a hundred dollars after you become president and a local block party on their street for you that serves brownies. Their swing voters and they just want their brownie.

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[TheMojoPin]

Please. The SBV ads have, at the minimum, some truth to them.

Where is this minimum of truth that NOBODY has been able to prove yet? A "minimum" is ridicuously generous at this point. They have NOTHING above the level of guesses and innuendo. There have been numerous articles linked to in this thread that show point by point how those ads are wrong, yet not a single one that does the opposite and at least prove ONE of the points in the swift boat ads to be true.

Hell, let's try with virtually every ad on moveon.org. How about that one ad that says that Bush "knew" "knew" that there were no WMD in Iraq and the like (this is an actual ad from moveon.org - and BTW that ad and many others which are, at the least, gross distortions of the truth are very much ON the moveon.org website RIGHT NOW).

And please don't say that moveon.org are not "Democratic" ads, because they are in the same way that this Swift Boat stuff is a Republican ad.

Thw swift boat group has been shown to have direct financial and active personel ties to the Bush re-election campaign and the White House itself. With moveon.org, there's an ex-employee from that group now working for the Kerry campaign. THAT'S the same?!?

The moveon.org ads have also received a minimum exposure, most being refused by stations, networks and affiliates for broadcast. In short, they've basically been seen primarily by people who go to moveon.org. People have to come TO the ads. The swift boat ads, by contrast, have received massive national exposure and release. Compare how many times a day you saw those swift boat ads on ANY channel compared to any one moveon.org ad.

If Bush feels there's something out there that he needs to take a stand against because it's as blatantly false as the swift boat ads, why hasn't he? He has the same legal options open to him as Kerry. The monstrous nature of the swift boat ads has taken these sort of "soft money" ads to an all-time new low, and they have nothing that should be or even could be defended. What Democratic or even moveon.org ad has reached anywhere near the kind of scale the swift boat ads achieved when they were running? Moveon.org is still perceived and treated for what it is...a fringe group. Whereas the swift boat group, just as much a fringe group relying only on slander and baseless accusations, like moveon.org, is somehow able to achieve national exposure and maximum visiblity during its ad run. THAT'S why it's been singled out by Kerry, and that's why it should be singled out. Legal action against one of these type of groups will effect them all. Bush SHOULD move against moveon.org in the way Kerry has gone against the swift boat ads. Why shouldn't he? Why hasn't he? Why is Kerry obligated NOT to do something about these lies just because Bush can't get off his ass and do the same?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-24-04 @ 12:14 PM

[canofsoup15]

Compare how many times a day you saw those swift boat ads on ANY channel compared to any one moveon.org ad.


I live here in good ol' New Jersey and I've seen those ads maybe...three times?

The internet is playing a big part in this election too (just look at this thread). And I think that the role the internet has in this is being overlooked. Moveon.org has and can advertise on many other sites, and can also link you to other sites providing excellent slander of George Bush. It's all just one big connection of hate with so many ads and lies and guessing, that if the average voter started watching a few of those ads, their whole opinion might change regardless of it's credibility or not.

This thread should be called:

Involvement in politics...Self Inflicted Wounds?

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[TheMojoPin]

The internet is playing a big part in this election too (just look at this thread). And I think that the role the internet has in this is being overlooked. Moveon.org has and can advertise on many other sites, and can also link you to other sites providing excellent slander of George Bush. It's all just one big connection of hate with so many ads and lies and guessing, that if the average voter started watching a few of those ads, their whole opinion might change regardless of it's credibility or not.

Well, it ties into earlier what I was talking about with the right wing "news" sites that Teenweek posted. Sites like those and moveon.org don't particuarly care about accuracy or reporting or balance or bias...they just care about the moment and emotion and that's it. And the scary thing is that people on both sides will allow themselves to ONLY go to sites like that because they don't want to hear anything from "the other side."

But I still have to ask...does anything on moveon.org truly compare to the damage done by the swift boat ads? Most of the moveon.org ads rely chiefly on perception and spin. Quotes out of context and the opinions of the filmmakers over straight-up facts. But the swift boat ads are, at least as it's been shown up to today, flat-out lying on specific points about John Kerry, and then claiming they have proof to back that up...when they don't. A moveon.org ad typically doesn't claim to have any kind of proof...they'll just spin a quote and say that that "proves" them right. The swift boat group continues to claim they have witnesses and documents that prove them right, and yet none have done so thus far.

I don't know, I don't excuse moveon.org for what they've done...but the swift boat ads just strike me as SO much worse, and truly the worst campaign ads in the history of television...not only because they lie, but because they pick such an ultimately trivial issue to lie over. They've managed to sidewipe the election and make it NOT about the important global issues that are just SO dire right now. At least in the past, an ugly smear would claim something "important"...like, "vote for the other guy and he'll get you nuked. VOTE FOR ME." This is just so...nothing. I guess I just hope that if Kerry takes this on as a rallying point, it will effect groups like moveon.org down the line. Somebody has to make a stand.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[canofsoup15]

But I still have to ask...does anything on moveon.org truly compare to the damage done by the swift boat ads? Most of the moveon.org ads rely chiefly on perception and spin. Quotes out of context and the opinions of the filmmakers over straight-up facts. But the swift boat ads are, at least as it's been shown up to today, flat-out lying on specific points about John Kerry, and then claiming they have proof to back that up...when they don't. A moveon.org ad typically doesn't claim to have any kind of proof...they'll just spin a quote and say that that "proves" them right. The swift boat group continues to claim they have witnesses and documents that prove them right, and yet none have done so thus far.


Well, first of all, I will have trouble answering this question because I saw that swift boat ad, and me being a normal thinking individual didn't take it with a grain of salt. I thought maybe for a second it had a chance of being somewhat factual, but then I saw people and stations saying that the people in the ad weren't actually with Kerry (I even heard it from The Daily Show) and then I just disavowed any knowledge (of it's actions). The stuff on moveon.org (I think) seems like it would have a greater effect on the average viewer. I saw an ad showing an regular guy getting home late from overtime and then saying "Hey, all you people who have overtime, aren't going to get paid if you keep bush in office," that to me was pretty bad, not to mention the fact that they had no factual information in the whole thing, or even a quote from the president. Maybe it has to do with some people thinking this Vietnam thing is even an issue (as you too, have stated, is not),but I think that the overtime thing is effective because it relates to now, it even says "times are ruff, you're working overtime to keep up," and that true for many many americans and if your even just kind of half paying attention to the commercial, it might make you change your mind.

My thoughts on the Swift Boat ad, go along with what you said earlier as well:


And the scary thing is that people on both sides will allow themselves to ONLY go to sites like that because they don't want to hear anything from "the other side."


My first thought was, they looks unstable and like it has a low credibility level, I won't look much into it because it has nothing to do with the election, I don't make my decisions based on this ad, it might be true, but I'm dubious it is. Then after hearing that it was completely false, I thought that the only people who would believe that in the first place were the die-hard republican voters. My thoughts now are that anyone still believe this:
A. Created the ad
B. Starred in the ad.
C. Is an idiot who believes everything he reads and should not be able to vote because he allows television to make up his mind for him.

C. is made up of the people I referred to before as the swing voters.


And all they want,


is a brownie.

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This message was edited by canofsoup15 on 8-24-04 @ 1:03 PM

[smeagol]

Once, again, I say that Sen. Kerry has made his Vietnam service, more than anything else, the centerpiece of his campaign. I don't mean this as a statement of fact, but as my opinion based on the tone and message of the Dem convention and the Kerry Campaign recently.

So I think that we are entitled to know the details behind these words:

=====
(April 18, 1971, Meet the Press):
>MR. CROSBY NOYES (Washington Evening Star): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

>SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.
=====

I think we are entitled to know exactly what atrocities he committed, who was involved, when, how many injured/killed, etc. etc? If so, why did he commit them? The "I was following orders" defense for illegal actions was soundly invalided at Nuremburg I believe.

And if he didn't commit the atrocities, why did he say that he did?

So far, he has not "taken back" these words, rather he has more or less dismissed them as youthful indiscretion.

Sen. Kerry must be held accountable for such statements. It is his personal responsibility to explain his words.

And I have to add, and I don't mean to be flip, but who is this man John Kerry? Is he a war hero or a war criminal? By his own words, over time, he has described himself as both.

By his own words, am I wrong?

[TheMojoPin]

Yet another direct connection between the swift boat vets and the official GOP re-election campaign for Bush. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818431/)

WASHINGTON - An election lawyer for President Bush who also has been advising a veterans group running TV ads against Democrat John Kerry resigned Wednesday from Bush's campaign.

La-la-laaaaaaa...

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[TheMojoPin]

I think we are entitled to know exactly what atrocities he committed

Jesus Christ, you quoted the man answering your own damn questions.

>SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

He testified that he BELIEVED the actions he was commanded to engage in, as detailed above, are classified as war crimes. It's clear, to me at least, that he doesn't know who ordered these tactics be used, but simply that as a witness and participant to these combat actions, he feels they were ordered with the full knowledged that they were, as he believed at the time, "war crimes."

I think we are entitled to know exactly what atrocities he committed, who was involved, when, how many injured/killed, etc. etc?

What "atrocities?" He just fucking told us in black and white in the quote YOU provided above. How much more specific do you want? As for the rest, what, was he suppsoed to be taking notes in the middle of a combat operation? He was tesitifying as an EYEWITNESS, not some kind of historian or "combat scientist." "I saw this, I believe this, this is my opinion, based on what I saw." That's how an eyewitness testimony works.

Why the hell should he take back any of these testimonies? The context of them is clearly of a man who participated in certain military actions that he came to question AFTER THE FACT. Do we expect soldiers, many of which are experiencing combat for the first time in their lives in this sort of situation, to have an automatic 100% perception of what's happening to them, around them or by them? Of course not.

Is he condemning his fellow soldiers? On the contrary, he's including himself as one of the ones having engaged in these "war crimes." What is his testimony meant to do? Point towards commanders and leaders who DO have the perspective to realize what they're ordering these men to do, and that it might be wrong by our nation's very own "rules of war." Did he necessarily know exactly who all of these men were? Of course not.

You seem to expect a single soldier to have all the answers to all the aspects of what was a massive investigation. Why is Kerry held to those kind of unusual and unreasonable standards? He's hardly the only soldier that testified along those lines and under those conditions. Why are THEY not subject to them same ludicrous double standards?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[42nd-delay]

Here's an unambiguous article title:

Swift Boat Writer Lied on Cambodia Claim (http://news.google.com/news?q=%22Swift%20Boat%20Writer%20Lied%20%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wn)

Do these guys have any credibility left?

------------------------------
"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

[canofsoup15]

Do these guys have any credibility left?


WHOA WHOA WHOA HEEEEYYY THERE SLUGGER, SLOOOWWW DOWN.

What credibility did they have in the first place?

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[A.J.]

He should pull a Dole and step down...it's the classy thing to do. Not doing so reflects poorly on his performance as a senator, and implies he doesn't have the confidence to really go all the way while he's running for president.

Agreed. The worst offender of this was Lieberman in 2000. He ran as Gore's Veep and ran for relection to the Senate at the same time!

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A Skidmark/canofsoup15 production.

Red Sox Nation

[LordJezo]

Yet another direct connection between moveon.org and the official Democrat election campaign for Kerry. (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/07/kerry.exley/)


Zach Exley, the director of special projects for the MoveOn PAC, is going to the Kerry campaign to become its director of online communications and organization.



La-la-laaaaaaa...


Oh crap, forgot my rules again for this election.. Kerry can do whatever he wants. Bush can't.

------------------------
I KISS YOU!

This message was edited by LordJezo on 8-26-04 @ 11:07 AM

[TheMojoPin]

Yet another direct connection between moveon.org and the official Democrat election campaign for Kerry. (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/07/kerry.exley/)


Zach Exley, the director of special projects for the MoveOn PAC, is going to the Kerry campaign to become its director of online communications and organization.



La-la-laaaaaaa...


Oh crap, forgot my rules again for this election.. Kerry can do whatever he wants. Bush can't.

Way to show off those selective reading skills, since we already went over this issue back on page 4. (http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/CurrentPage/4/forum/87/Topic/40814/RequestTimeout/500)

And how the fuck is someone quitting one organization going to work for a different organization "ANOTHER CONNECTION" between Kerry's campaign and moveon.org? "Another" implies more than one. And "connection" implies one in the first place. Where are the people working for Kerry's campaign and moveon.org at the same time, as they've found twice now with Bush's group and the swift boat ads?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-26-04 @ 12:15 PM

[Yerdaddy]

Book: Unfit for Command
John E. O'Neill
Co-author
Thursday, August 26, 2004; Noon ET

In his book, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry," co-author John E. O'Neill questions numerous aspects of Democratic presidential nominee John F. Kerry's Vietnam service.

O'Neill will be online Thursday, Aug. 26, Noon ET to take your questions and comments on the book as well as the accusations.
Uhh, that would be right now. Washington Post (http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/04/oneill082604.htm)

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.

[Yerdaddy]

Nevermind. He's answered four questions in 28 minutes, dodging the hard ones of course. He sure as shit didn't answer mine. What a fucking tool.


John Hurley, National Director of Veterans for Kerry, will be online Thursday, Aug. 26, at 2 p.m. ET.


<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=bonedaddy5">
Fuck it from behind.


This message was edited by Yerdaddy on 8-26-04 @ 12:29 PM

[smeagol]

>SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.


I see these words and I see a man who says that as an officer in the US Navy he committed/took part in atrocities. I see these words and I see a man who acknowledges that these actions were against the laws of warfare and the Geneva Conventions. I see these words and I see a man who says that he believes the men who ordered such actions are war criminals. To this last statement I'll add that such actions contained within orders from "war criminals" are "war crimes".

Any member of the US military who carries out an order he/she knows to be illegal (i.e., "a war crime") is held responsible for the consequences of such an order. This is long established, this is the law and it is a fact. It is also common sense, just as the laws of warfare and the Geneva Conventions. It is "Humanity 101".

Now if Sen. Kerry wants to be President of these great United States, and Sen. Kerry has said on the record that "yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers." and "I took part in . the burning of villages" then yes I DO want to know EXACTLY what he did. I want to know, for example, what village(s), when, who he was with, and I want to know WHY? And I want to hear it from him.

Because if he did such things as he said he did, then he is a war criminal.

If he did not do such things then he has almost certainly lied in a big way and disgraced himself and many others, MOST others I am sure, who served this country at that time.

Sen. Kerry is personally responsible and accountable for his words and actions. He has yet to clarify this issue.

He has yet to clarify who he is and what he is all about. Who is this man John Kerry?

[LordJezo]

Michael Moore had box seats at the DNC!

Another connection!

------------------------
I KISS YOU!

[canofsoup15]

Michael Moore had box seats at the DNC!

Another connection!


Gigli Sucked.

Ben Affleck was in Gigli.

BEN AFFLECK WAS AT THE DNC!

IT'S ALL COMING TOGETHER!

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[TheMojoPin]

Any member of the US military who carries out an order he/she knows to be illegal (i.e., "a war crime") is held responsible for the consequences of such an order. This is long established, this is the law and it is a fact. It is also common sense, just as the laws of warfare and the Geneva Conventions. It is "Humanity 101".

Wait, how do you KNOW he knew this before he engaged in those actions? How do you KNOW he didn't come to that realization after the fact? And how do you assume it is John Kerry's responsibility as only a witness in a massive government investigation to determine whether or not what he engaged in were war crimes? He was testifying so OTHERS could make that decision. The decision was not his role.

And I still don't understand what you're not reading in that snippet of testimony. It's a man saying he engaged what he BELIEVES at the time of his testimony were war crimes. It was his duty as an eyewitness in that hearing to say that and ONLY that, what he thought he saw, what he thought he was ordered to do, and what he thought he engaged in. He detailed the type of operations RIGHT THERE IN THE TESTIMONY. How do you know the committee didn't already have the information as to the when and where specifics? Why are you only selectively quoting part of the ENITRE hearing? Why are you holding John Kerry alone to such ridiculous standards above ANYONE else in that hearing, no matter what their role?

Why does SOLE blame in this entire affair seemingly ONLY fall to John Kerry?

The information is there. He said what was expected of him as an eyewitness in that hearing. Is he right? Is he wrong? I don't know. But you're expecting details that he's not obligated to be sharing based on the QUESTIONING the prompted his testimony. This wasn't just a man randmoly speaking his statement. It's guided by the hearing around it.

But hey, who need context?

Michael Moore had box seats at the DNC!

Another connection!

Are you fucking serious?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[smeagol]

I'm not sure where you picked up "testimony". As my original post said:

>(April 18, 1971, Meet the Press):

Anyway, I don't see the point in parsing my words or his, as you continue to do. It seems pretty clear what he said here. He said he committed atrocities and that these atrocities were, in effect, ordered by war criminals. I say that if he in fact did commit these atrocities/war crimes then he is a war criminal.

My message is clear: If this man, this war hero, did not know atrocities/war crimes as he was committing them, then I DO NOT want him to be commander-in-chief. Do you?

If this man did not actually commit these atrocities/war crimes as he said he did, how could he say such things? How could he lie about such things? Why?

Either way it raises serious doubts about this man's core, his principles, what he is all about.

The context pertaining to this issue, as it is, is self-contained in my view. There are no higher standards than those associated with the highest office in the land. What he believes is evident in what he says. There are no excuses, no bucking up the chain on this one.

[LordJezo]

Michael Moore had box seats at the DNC!

Another connection!


Gigli Sucked.

Ben Affleck was in Gigli.

BEN AFFLECK WAS AT THE DNC!

IT'S ALL COMING TOGETHER!


YOU BET!

And how about all those companies that only use Heinz ketchup? Coincidence? Doubt it.

------------------------
I KISS YOU!

[TheMojoPin]

Sorry, I thought you were quoting from his hearing testimony. Have you read that over, as opposed to only focusing on him talking ABOUT his testimony?

And basically, I have no idea what you want him to do.

Do you honestly expect all soldiers, regardless of age or experience, to have instant expertise in all aspects of combat? How long had he been in active combat? How long had he been in the military period?

And to tell the truth, I'd be much more comfortable with a man who learned what he may have done after the fact as opposed to a man who did all he could to stay away from the war alotgether.

Look, people will probably call this diversionary, but I need to ask...are you going to vote for Bush over Kerry? Why? What has Bush done or said that indicates he somehow has better perception over these matters than Kerry? Kerry may have made the WRONG decisions, but he made them in the past and has had time to learn from them. Bush didn't even bother to attempt to make the decision in the first place.

Essentially, with Kerry, I see someone dealing with combat the way they deal with it on their own terms. If he THOUGHT something was a war crime, does that automatically make it a war crime? No, of course not. Odds are, given the publicity of his testimonies at the time, if he had ACTUALLY enagaged in war crimes, something would have come of it. His PERCEPTION of something being a war crime does not MAKE IT a war crime. Again, you're treating his word like it's the end-all be-all on the matter.

His assumptions and accusations could very easily be wrong, and most likely were at the time. But that's how he perceived the combat of that particular engagement. Who are you to dictate how he was supposed to deal with that? If he thought something was wrong, he thought something was wrong.

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 8-26-04 @ 2:55 PM

[A.J.]

You cant trust any of these fucking websites.

Anyway, I heard about Kerry and the Grassy Knoll; just a rumor I thought, till I did a search on the JFK Assasination Films:

http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/kerry3

<IMG SRC="http://members.aol.com/miketeachr/anisig3">

Posts like these arouse Mojo.

<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AJinDC-Sig.jpg>

A Skidmark/canofsoup15 production.

Red Sox Nation

[TheMojoPin]

Hey there, sailor.

Is that a second shooter in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << December boys got it BAD >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[Recyclerz]

Hey, I think I saw this prone, almost lifeless horse twitch!

Bush Voter backs Kerry's Story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5835000/)

Take a look at the link. A guy with sideburns like that has got to be telling the truth.





Pssst - George W. Bush is a nekkid emperor. Pass it on.

<IMG SRC="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US">
[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]

[canofsoup15]

Hey, I think I saw this prone, almost lifeless horse twitch:
Bush Voter backs Kerry's Story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5835000/)
Take a look at the link. A guy with sideburns like that has got to be telling the truth.


What are you implying? That he's lying? It's just a guy saying he was there, he saw gunfire, and he doesn't want to vote for Kerry. What's the big deal?


<img src=http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AphexTwinD2.gif>

<marquee behavior=alternate><Font size="1" Color="blue">
I got the glass, I got the steel. I got the love to hate.
</font><font color=red> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;All I need is your head on stake.</font></marquee><Font Color = White>

[Recyclerz]

What are you implying? That he's lying? It's just a guy saying he was there, he saw gunfire, and he doesn't want to vote for Kerry. What's the big deal?


To the extent I am trying to imply anything (and I thought the story spoke for itself) it is that a person can be against Kerry politically and not resort to the below-the-belt slander that the swift boat puppets and their sponsors are resorting to.

Jeez, I'm not used to having people read my posts. I'm getting tired from all this responding.
;)

<IMG SRC="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US">
[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon he never lived 'round here.[b]

[high fly]

...and is anyone asking Dole to give back his Purple Heart?

Y'know, the one he got when he threw a grenade that riccocheted off a tree branch and wounded Dole.
"It was just a scratch, really," Dole said the other night on Alan Colmes' radio show.



Hoooooo-boy! Don't you know THAT one will piss off those Swift Boaties!




" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

This message was edited by high fly on 8-28-04 @ 7:14 PM

[LiquidCourage]

Just a scratch?
Isn't that the one that crippled his right arm?

[high fly]

Just a scratch?
Isn't that the one that crippled his right arm?



No.
It happened before that.


I think it was a machine gun that cut up his right arm, forcing him to learn to jerk off left-handed.


Wanna take away his Purple Heart?




" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[HBox]

George Bush at church:

Priest: Do you renounce Satan and all his empty promises?
Bush: I renounce all evil.
Preist: Yes, but do you renounce Satan?
Bush. I said I renounce all evil.
Priest: Just say "I renounce Satan" and we can move on.
Bush: I already did.
Priest: No you didn't! Why can't you say you renounce Satan specifically!?
Bush: Damn liberal............

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

This message was edited by HBox on 8-31-04 @ 12:52 AM

[monsterone]

George Bush at church:

Priest: Do you renounce Satan and all his empty promises?
Bush: I renounce all evil.
Preist: Yes, but do you renounce Satan?
Bush. I said I renounce all evil.
Priest: Just say "I renounce Satan" and we can move on.
Bush: I already did.
Priest: No you didn't! Why can't you say you renounce Satan specifically!?
Bush: Damn liberal............

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

This message was edited by HBox on 8-31-04 @ 12:52 AM





knee slapper at a black bloc pot luck.

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="gray" size="1">do you know what "nemesis" means? a righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent.
personified in this case by an 'orrible cunt... me.
</font>

</center>
<font color= "red" size="6">

[reeshy]

I can't believe all you people...we are on the eve of electing either a man who is going to blow up the world or the man who will give it all away!!!! I give up!!!!! Australia...here I come!!!!!

[center]<IMG SRC="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=reeshy">
[center]

[monsterone]

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/sig256.gif">

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="gray" size="1">do you know what "nemesis" means? a righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent.
personified in this case by an 'orrible cunt... me.
</font>

</center>
<font color= "red" size="6">

[HBox]

You might want to read up on that Badnarik guy before you even joke about supporting him. He's a fucking nutcase. He SERIOUSLY, not as a joke, said he would blow up the UN building 2 weeks after he entered office whether or not anyone was in the building at the time. Please spare with the jokes, (Doesn't sound like a bad idea hyut hyut hyut!) the guy was serious.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[monsterone]

please provide a link. this i haven't read.

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="gray" size="1">do you know what "nemesis" means? a righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent.
personified in this case by an 'orrible cunt... me.
</font>

</center>
<font color= "red" size="6">

[HBox]

I'm sorry this is such a huge article, but it's an in-depth profile of the Libertarian Convention, how Badnarik won, how much of a weirdo he is, and how much the Libertatrian Party freaked out when they found out. (http://www.libertyunbound.com/archive/2004_08/bradford-dark_horse.html)

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[monsterone]

sorry, i put my response in the rnc thread to your link.

<center><img border=1 src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=monsterone01"><br></center>

<center>

<font color="gray" size="1">do you know what "nemesis" means? a righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent.
personified in this case by an 'orrible cunt... me.
</font>

</center>
<font color= "red" size="6">

[HBox]

In response to your response, that article comes from a respected libertarian monthly magazine. There isn't an anti-libertarian bias there.

http://www.myimgs.com/random/hbox/sig

[LordJezo]

Why is Kerry speaking at the American Legion if he hates them so much?


"will not readily join the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars ..."

"We will not uphold traditions which decorously memorialize that which was base and grim,"


What a bunch of fools those Legion guys are for inviting a hater like that into their midst.


------------------------
I KISS YOU!

[TheMojoPin]

Reporters and pundits keep going beyond the evidence to blur the lines between the Bush campaign and Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group that has been critical of John Kerry's Vietnam war record. (http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2004_08_29_archive.html#1094092004620128 )

<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
1979 << I love my drug buddy... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

[HBox]

<p><a href="http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/06/07/kerry_allows_navy_release_of_military_medical_reco rds/" target="_blank">I
guess this is just an epilogue to this horrible little chapter in the
last election: Kerry finally releases his full military records.</a></p><p>Senator John F. Kerry, ending at least two years of refusal, has waived
privacy restrictions and authorized the release of his full military
and medical records.</p><p>The records, which the Navy Personnel Command provided to the Globe,
are mostly a duplication of what Kerry released during his 2004
campaign for president, including numerous commendations from
commanding officers who later criticized Kerry's Vietnam service.</p><p>In the end, the people bashing him were liars, and Kerry was an idiot..&nbsp;</p><a href="http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/06/07/kerry_allows_navy_release_of_military_medical_reco rds/" target="_blank"></a>

http://img255.echo.cx/img255/5972/mariosig8fk.jpg

[Recyclerz]

<p><font color="#000080" size="2">In the end, the people bashing him were liars</font></p><p>True dat, but they are <strong><em><u>winning</u></em></strong> liars and, I strongly suspect, it's the adjective and not the noun that they care about.</p>

<IMG SRC="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US">

[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon, he never lived 'round here[b]

[FMJeff]

kerry who?

<center><img src="http://www.ronfez.net/imagestorage/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[FMJeff]

<p>wow....there isn't one single distinguishing factor separating kerry from bush other than thier parties...both idiots in college....both stodgy war records...</p><p>i guess bush was the right choice after all...at least he isn't fake about being stupid...</p><p>kerry got d's in almost every class...fuck i did better in school than he did....maybe i should run for president...</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

<center><img src="http://www.ronfez.net/imagestorage/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[Bulldogcakes]

<p>&nbsp;</p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font><br />
<p>kerry got d's in almost every class...fuck i did better in school than he did....maybe i should run for president...<br />
</p><p> </p>

http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2004/01/30-teresa-kerry.jpg<br /><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Just marry a self obsessed woman with a billion dollars and you're all set. <br />
</p>


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/Kevin2700/cakescopy.jpg

My brand spankin new site Bully Baby (http://bulldogcakes.tripod.com/index.html)


Do Siamese twins have to file seperate tax returns? Or do they file jointly?

[high fly]

<p>&nbsp;</p><p><font size="3"><strong>YOOOO----HOOOOO!</strong></font></p><p><strong><font size="3">ALL YOU KIDS WHO DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO SPIT ON A VIETNAM COMBAT VETERAN, <em>HERE'S YOUR CHANCE!</em></font></strong></p><p><strong><em><font size="3">make sure to wave the flag while you do it, too, and try to forget all that crap you heard on Memorial Day, as well.</font></em></strong></p><p><font size="2"><font size="3">I always enjoyed it when the right-wing robots got all confused <em>and <strong>STILL</strong></em></font><em>&nbsp;</em><font size="3">refused to admit the truth even after the Not-So-Swifties were so thoroughly discredited.</font></font></p><p><font size="3">I mean, look at FMJeff equating their war records, above.</font></p><p><font size="3">Not-S0-Swiftie leader Roy Hoffman wrote up Kerry's Silver Star recommendation, saying Kerry was a,</font></p><p><strong><font size="3">&quot;SHINING EXAMPLE OF COMPLETELY OVERWHELMING THE ENEMY.&quot;</font></strong></p><strong><font size="3"><font size="3"><strong><font size="3" /></strong><strong><font size="3"><p>&nbsp;</p><font size="1">&quot; and they ask me why I drink&quot; <img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg" border="0" /> Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!</font></font></strong> <p><font size="1" /></p></font><font size="1">&quot; and they ask me why I drink&quot; Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!</font> </font></strong>

<font color=black>This message was edited by high fly on 6-10-05 @ 3:51 PM</font>

[FMJeff]

<font style="font-size: 9px" face="Verdana">quote: </font><p><font size="2"><font size="3">I always enjoyed it when the right-wing robots got all confused <em>and <strong>STILL</strong></em></font><em>&nbsp;</em><font size="3">refused to admit the truth even after the Not-So-Swifties were so thoroughly discredited.</font></font></p><p><font size="3">I mean, look at FMJeff equating their war records, above.</font></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Yeah man, cause i'm the biggest right wing nut on this board...</p><p>what the hell ru talking about...</p><p>you should read my posts stfu before you accuse me of &quot;spitting on a war veteran&quot; you mope...i dissed thier school records The only equating I did was calling thier records&nbsp;stodgy, which means dull...</p><p>yeah man that's a real spit in the face...</p><p>&nbsp;</p><img src="http://www.ronfez.net/imagestorage/fmjeff.gif" border="0" /> <br />It made my heart sing.

<font color=black>This message was edited by FMJeff on 6-10-05 @ 4:08 PM</font>

[HBox]

<p>[color=navy]<font size="2">Jeff typed that up at an anti-abortion rally.</font></p><p><font size="2">OH YES!! We're on to you Jeff!</font> </p>

<img border="0" src="http://img255.echo.cx/img255/5972/mariosig8fk.jpg" />

<font color=black>This message was edited by HBox on 6-10-05 @ 3:57 PM</font>

[FMJeff]

<p>sorry hbox...you're way off...i was listening to Rush Limbaugh while reading the bible and killing jews and blacks...</p>

<center><img src="http://www.ronfez.net/imagestorage/fmjeff.gif">
<br>
It made my heart sing.

[high fly]

<p>Sorry to mix you in with the rubery, Jeff.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>It's just that you had the same thing to say of both war records, when in fact they are quite different.</p><p>Kerry killed commies in service to his country and&nbsp;performed bravely under fire.</p><p>Doesn't sound &quot;stodgy&quot; to me.....</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

" and they ask me why I drink"
http://64.177.177.182/katylina/highflysig.jpg
Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!