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The Blowhard
09-25-2001, 12:42 AM
When the impossible became reality and the World Trade Center came tumbling down, America braced itself for a second wave of terror.

So when Attorney General John Ashcroft said Monday that cropdusting planes across the country had been grounded, fear of another kind of terror from the sky surfaced - a fear of chemical or biological attacks.

Experts have long known that biological and chemical weapons would become part of the arsenal of terrorists, the question was just when. But experts say the very nature of much-feared compounds like the anthrax-causing bacteria, along with the mechanics of cropdusters, make concerns about an imminent biological attack a little bit of a stretch.

"A biological or chemical attack is conceivable," says Barbara Rosenberg, director of the Federation of American Scientists' chemical and biological weapons program, "But I don't think it's very likely at the moment."

Rosenberg says a crop duster would be very useful for a biological or chemical attack -- if you wanted to attack crops.

The problem, she said, is that only a very narrow range of particle sizes - smaller than 10 microns - can lodge deeply enough into human lungs to infect or damage the body. Crop dusters are fitted with much larger dispensers meant for insects and plants. And though a terrorist could modify the plane or dispenser, Rosenberg says, it wouldn't be easy.

"It's not extremely difficult, but you don't go out to the store and buy one off the shelf," Rosenberg said. "They might go to a scientific supplier, but it would have to be constructed to order."

Attacking humans would also require an unwieldy amount of pathogens or poison, according to Milton Leitenberg, a senior fellow at the Center for International and Security Studies and the University of Maryland at College Park.

"With chemical agents you need a very, very large amount -- thousands of pounds of agent -- in order to kill substantial numbers of people," he said. "If they made an aerosol, they would have to have hundreds and hundreds of gallons of the highest quality nerve agent."

Crop dusters can hold from 200 to 800 gallons of insecticide, but before they can be loaded, the agent must be created. In the case of a biological agent, which most experts think is more likely to be used as a weapon of mass destruction, creating enough to do damage is a major project.

In 1995, the Japanese Aum Shinri Kyo killed 12 people and injured thousands of others in a sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway. But they "had massive resources and buildings that looked like small factories, scientists and money and four years to work in peace and quiet on biological weapons," Leitenberg said.

"There's no indication the people involved in (the World Trade Center) attacks have any of that kind of facility anywhere in this country," he said. "This is not something you'd do in a garage."

There are three kinds of organisms scientists say might be suited as biological weapons, but each has its drawbacks.

The one most often brought up causes anthrax, Bacillus anthracis. It's a bacterium normally seen in livestock that can be transmitted in spore form and whose fatal form causes lesions in the lungs and brain. It was an anthrax bacterial strain mistakenly released into the air that killed 66 people outside a military lab in the Soviet Union in 1979.

"It's extremely stable and long lived, always the first choice," Rosenberg said. "But it is not spread from person to person. Each person had to come into contact with it directly."

There's also smallpox, or variola, a virus that is less stable than anthrax but is highly contagious and causes bleeding and crusty lesions over the body. It was officially declared eradicated by the World Health Organization in 1979.

"It readily spreads from person to person," Rosenberg said. "Infect a few people and they go out and cough and spread it through aerial contact. It spreads like the common cold, but the agent itself is fragile."

But the only two places to have supplies of live smallpox are the Centers for

babychanel
09-25-2001, 04:20 AM
If it must be one or the other,
I only have this to say.

" There is no justification to ones' Terror". "To administer such hatred; is
to have self hatred."

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/babychan

Thunderlips
09-25-2001, 06:03 AM
It's painful to talk about this stuff, but it must be a topic now.

Even if the crop-dusters wouldn't be the most effective delivery method for a virus, just imagine the sheer *terror* that a crop-duster could cause over a crowded football stadium or in Times Square. Given the mood of the American public, the plane could simply be spraying water, but the mass panic would kill plenty (people jumping off upper-deck railings, stampedes on stairs, etc.).

Ollie North was on one of the talking-head shows recently and his opinion (I usually go out of my way to ignore him because he is plenty slimy, but I feel that his past gives him some knowledge in this area), if terrorists had access to biological or nuclear devices, they would have used them by now. In his words "they took their best shot".

Captain Rooster
09-25-2001, 06:44 AM
I know that this is a scary, very real threat...but I wonder why he did not use these attacks immediately? Why did Saddam not use the chemicals when he had the chance during the war in 1991.

I think they know that we will use NUCLEAR WEAPONS the moment they attack with a weapon that can honestly endanger the health of the ENTIRE country.


I just complete the book The Stand, by Stephen King.

If you have the time...and do not mind being horrified, the book is amazing. It really captures the effects of a Biological weapon that is released. The examples in the book are very extreme...the Small Pox and Anthrx are bad but the germ "Captain Trips" in the book is downright horrible.

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosternladin.jpg>

Dan
09-25-2001, 06:56 AM
Anthrax is bad does not spread (if they dropped it on Manhattan, you'd be fine in Jersey) and there are no viable water-borne pathogens that could be effectively spread through the reserviors. Most germ-experts say Small Pox is the worst germ out there cause it spreads, but we have a vaccine for small pox that even works after being exposed.

Stop the insanity.

<font color=red>Read my my humble thoughts on The Greatest Tragedy of our Generation:
http://www.foundrymusic.com/magazine/readcolumns.cfm

My thoughts are with all the victims and the heros on the ground in NY and VA. </font>

EffMeBoobs
09-25-2001, 05:51 PM
Well hopefully this time around when Old Man Joe who's sportin his overalls and spittin tobacco comes into contact with Arabs wanting to purchase or rent a crop duster, he'll be suspicious. Even more suspicious is if they only inquire about where the spray button is. I'm sure every crop duster in existance is being closely guarded.

<img src=http://members.aol.com/muldermanx/images/fmb.jpg>

GOD BLESS AMERICA AND THE WTC VICTIMS<img src=http://members.aol.com/islejg24/images/flagusa.gif>

adolescentmasturbator
09-25-2001, 06:36 PM
First of yes I got this account working again.

Why did Saddam not use the chemicals when he had the chance during the war in 1991.

Maybe he ran out from gassing the Kurdish minority.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

Carter
09-25-2001, 07:03 PM
Heckler stop contributing to
the insanity... People are
already worked up
enough...


-Carter
--Big Man on Campus--
<embed width="300" height="100" src="http://www.ronfez.net/sig.swf">

Captain Rooster
09-25-2001, 07:41 PM
Maybe he ran out from gassing the Kurdish minority.


that was really sad adolo. - i know that the green berets are trying to help them....Saddam is such an animal!

<img src=http://ltrooster.homestead.com/files/roosternladin.jpg>

This message was edited by LTRooster on 9-25-01 @ 11:44 PM

Pootertoot
09-25-2001, 08:32 PM
Do we really need the Kurdish? Anyone who willingly calls themselves "Kurdish" can't have that much self-respect anyway.

There was a fun closing of the bridges today due to a chemical weapons scare. Ain't it grand?

I'm moving to Canada.

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adolescentmasturbator
09-25-2001, 08:58 PM
During the Iran/Iraq War Saddamn would gas all the people in a town(which was predominantly Kurdish) as he was retreating. He really is a huge pussy. The Kurds really got it bad. They get murdered by the government in Iraq, and Turkey.

Do we really need the Kurdish? Anyone who willingly calls themselves "Kurdish" can't have that much self-respect anyway.

Hey I'm 1/8 Kurdish. And the pronuciation comes off as Cordish.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

The Blowhard
09-25-2001, 09:53 PM
Carter, I posted this to alleviate peoples fears. There are so many rumors going around, and this is to show how difficult a "spraying" with a cropduster would be. Now go and enlist!

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"

HordeKing1
09-25-2001, 10:57 PM
Cropdusters are not an efficient method of spreading many biological or chemical weapons. Spraying smallpox from a cropduster, would decimate cities, because of how communicable it is.

Years ago, I recall reading an article from the CDC about an entire (small) town that was cordoned off as the result of the hunta virus. The vector for this deadly virus is rat poop. Now that's scary. Infect a bunch of rats, let them loose and we're in big trouble.

Years ago the CDC mentioned this as a serious threat to public safety. Imagine how much more of a threat it is now.

A cities water supply could be poisoned with a testube of bacterial or chemical agents.

The need for security becomes ever more clear. I'm more than willing to give up a few small personal freedoms in exchange for safety.

Speaking of safety, I'm so delighted to learn that Carter has changed his mind once again and is heading out for officers training school. Let me be the first to salute you.

http://members.aol.com/slipknot4twenty/hking

IkeaBoy
09-26-2001, 12:54 AM
"that's funny; that plane's dustin' crops where there ain't no crops!"

Like I'm the only one who thought of that line. Also definite props to Ron and Fez for the docudrama tonight.

Carrot Man to Big Apple: I Miss my baby carrot.

adolescentmasturbator
09-26-2001, 04:25 AM
How about that study that if Smallpox were let loose that it would infect 200,000 within a month. My fear is that vaccinations will be in short supply.

I will get a sig pic...eventually

Pootertoot
09-26-2001, 09:43 AM
North by Northwest, one of the greatest movies ever.

Anyone remember what the Aum Shinrikyo (I think I spelled that right) cult released in that Tokyo Subway tunnel? Was it Anthrax? Ms. Germs, start wearing a gas mask.

I'm sorry, AM, but no matter how you pronounce it, it's still spelled "Kurdish". I bet you in culture school the other cultures would call it "Turdish" and then give it a swirlie when the teacher was waiting outside the bathroom.

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angrymissy
09-26-2001, 10:23 AM
The Japanese cult released Sarin gas into the subways, which causes your lungs to blister and its real painful and stuff. I am currently convinced I have anthrax, smallpox, plague, ebola, ringworm and strep throat. If you want to make yourself crazy go to the <a href="http://www.cdc.gov">CDC Website</a> and read up on all the rare diseases in the world. My favorite?

<B>Schistosomiasis</b>
<I>How can I get schistosomiasis?</i>
Infection occurs when your skin comes in contact with contaminated fresh water in which certain types of snails that carry schistosomes are living.

Fresh water becomes contaminated by Schistosoma eggs when infected people urinate or defecate in the water. The eggs hatch, and if certain types of snails are present in the water, the parasites grow and develop inside the snails. The parasite leaves the snail and enters the water where it can survive for about 48 hours. Schistosoma parasites can penetrate the skin of persons who are wading, swimming, bathing, or washing in contaminated water. Within several weeks, worms grow inside the blood vessels of the body and produce eggs. Some of these eggs travel to the bladder or intestines and are passed into the urine or stool.


AMB

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