Is homeland security an illusion?

[FMJeff]

In my opinion it is...the notion that with enough money and enough manpower we can protect our borders from attack is without a doubt the most grevious absurdity sold to the people of this country. There is no security in a world where terrorists will stop at nothing to kill/destroy for thier cause. I am voting for Kerry, but he made an idiotic statement the other night during the debate...that only a small percentage of our harbor containers are inspected for weapons of mass destruction. What are we supposed to do? Check every container? Doesn't he realize that will destroy the shipping industry and industry around the world?

Borders have and will always remain porous. It makes me think of the great dynasties of China...in an attempt to thwart the seemingly endless threat of the Huns, the Emperors conceived of a plan I consider to be both brilliantly simple in its common sense as it was monumentally stupid. (my apologies to the emperors and all chinese for the use of the word stupid. ;)) It is a thought that still pokes up now and again even today. Let's build a big fucking wall around our country so nobody can get in. Then we'll feel secure.

Security doesn't exist. Prisoners escape. Diamonds are stolen. Terrorists fly planes into buildings. The human factor will ALWAYS thwart even the most audacious plans. People make movies and write books about this very subject. You cannot stop an enemy determined to destroy you unless you either:

A. Address the concerns that made them your enemy.
B. Destroy your enemy.

The Bush administration seems to feel option B is the right way to go.

I guess I'm voting for Kerry because I feel and hope he doesn't feel the same way.

This message was edited by FMJeff on 10-8-04 @ 3:41 AM

[A.J.]

B. Destroy your enemy.

The Bush administration seems to feel option B is the right way to go.

I guess I'm voting for Kerry because I feel and hope he doesn't feel the same way.

I'm pretty sure that in the first debate Kerry pledged to "bring the war to the terrorists" or "go after those who attacked us" or someting along those lines. He did so in regards to Bush's failure to kill or capture bin Laden.

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[DJEvelEd]

What are your reasons for thinking that building a wall is stupid? Israel thinks it will help with the Palestenians there, maybe it will help keep out the undocumented Mexicans/South Americans here. (and those smelly fucking Canadians too!)

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[mdr55]

You cannot stop an enemy determined to destroy you unless you either:

A. Address the concerns that made them your enemy.
B. Destroy your enemy.

The Bush administration seems to feel option B is the right way to go.
I guess I'm voting for Kerry because I feel and hope he doesn't feel the same way.


What's wrong with plan B.???? It worked for the U.S. in World War 2 didn't it??

So you want Kerry to invite the terrorist to the White House and have some coffee to talk? "Hey Osama, I know you planned 9-11 but I'm having this party in the Oval Office so why don't we get together and talk turkey". Our enemies don't care anything about us. They're using the excuse of "because of the U.S. policys blah blah blah" to justify their cause. If the terrorist demanded that the U.S. give up democracy and join their cause in fighting for Allah.......you think that would solve the problem??? Fuck no. Negotiating and talking with terrorists just reinforces their "cause" as being legitimate. And let's not pretend here that the U.S. doesn't support Terrorism when it's to our benefit. It's one of the reasons Russia lost the cold war. But oh yeah....I forgot.....those people we helped out were "Freedom Fighters".

Peace and War come hand in hand. To have peace you have to have war. To have war you have to have peace. Look at Hitler. Do you think that if the other countries identified why he became an enemy that would have prevented World War 2?? No it wouldn't because he would have sought some other trivial issues to give legitimacy to do the things that he would do ("I don't like how the Russians are their hats--I think i'll invade Russia).

The more John Kerry talks the more he sounds like a used car salesman pitching to you that hunk of junk in his lot was the best car in the world and how you needed it. "I have a plan for Iraq......I know I can do better in getting more allies to the table.......I have a plan for improving the cost of healthcare in America........I have a plan for this and another plan for that". Is John Kerry the only person in America that has all the answers. What is he God??? "Vote for me, John Kerry and I shall provide". He'll promise you the world but you'll get very little on your plate.

And what's so wrong with building a Great Wall?? It worked for the Chinese didn't it.

This message was edited by mdr55 on 10-8-04 @ 11:04 AM

[curtoid]

What's wrong with plan B.???? It worked for the U.S. in World War 2 didn't it??

Problem is, The President claims he is going with "plan B," an his supporters actually believe him, but in reality he's going to a secretive "Plan C" which has nothing to do with going after our real enemies, and has only lead to increasing more enemies in the long run.

What are your reasons for thinking that building a wall is stupid? Israel thinks it will help with the Palestenians there, maybe it will help keep out the undocumented Mexicans/South Americans here. (and those smelly fucking Canadians too!)

All walls eventually fall.

Without the undocumented Mexans/South Americans in this country, do you really think this country would be able to run the way it has?? It's these very same undocumented Mexans/South Americans that do the work that the rest of us won't because they are too dangerous and don't pay a livable income.

That's why meat packing plants in the midwest run commercials on Latin American language stations in Los Angeles and actually IN Mexico advertising employment.



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This message was edited by curtoid on 10-8-04 @ 12:08 PM

[furie]

"Plan C"


enlighten us


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[curtoid]

enlighten us

The men behind the curtain... (http://www.newamericancentury.org/)

Something we've already talked about, though, a few times already. (http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/87/Topic/26514/page/Project_for_a_New_American_Century.htm)



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This message was edited by curtoid on 10-8-04 @ 3:43 PM

[FMJeff]

And what's so wrong with building a Great Wall?? It worked for the Chinese didn't it.


Umm...actually it didn't. All they had to do was climb over it.

http://mo.essortment.com/historychinagr_rgcx.htm

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[furie]

jeff, i think you're missing the point of the great wall. it wasn't intended to stop people from entering. it was impossible to man it. the purpose to make it difficult. mangols and huns had to now trek hundreds of miles out of the way to get into china and hundred of miles to get back out. can't get a horse to climb a large wall after all. it made invading china costly, not impossible.

and it did work. while the mongols continued to raid china for centuries and even conquered sections of it, the huns we forced to migrate westward.

Parallels can be drawn with out boarders. it's impossible to keep people totally out. even sealing the boarder wouldn't work. but we can tighten security and we have. not nearly as much as i'd like, but security at the boarder is much higher than pre-911 levels. visitors from largely muslim countries are now fingerprinted and photographed on top of the visa examinations.

No one ever promised that homeland security would keep up completely, but improvements have been made.


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[TheMojoPin]

In the future, Hey Kool Aid will simply destroy the wall to quench his awful hunger for filthy Mexican children.

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[FMJeff]

jeff, i think you're missing the point of the great wall. it wasn't intended to stop people from entering. it was impossible to man it. the purpose to make it difficult. mangols and huns had to now trek hundreds of miles out of the way to get into china and hundred of miles to get back out. can't get a horse to climb a large wall after all. it made invading china costly, not impossible.

and it did work. while the mongols continued to raid china for centuries and even conquered sections of it, the huns we forced to migrate westward.



That's what I mean...what you're describing is a deterrent...but a determined enemy will always find a way which is what i'm talking about...

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Can I tell a silly story . . good. . . One time when I was in grammer school. . .Catholic Grammer School that is, about 6th grade, I decided to wear my older and cooler sister's painted Jean jacket one day. On the back of that jacket was (I think) the second picture above. Needless to say, the entire class drilled into me to the point where the princiapl (Sr. Charlene) had to intervene. She said, "I bet that tomorrow you'll all show up in painted jackets", trying to defend me, but I knew deep down inside she did not apporve of the jacket, but she just felt kinda bad for the underdog.

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This message was edited by kevcala on 10-9-04 @ 1:09 AM

[furie]

i know that. I'm just saying the the wall was meant to be a deterrent and it worked. it served it's purpose.

of-course a determined enemy will eventually overcome our defenses. But if we thwart 10 attacks and the 11th hits, does that mean that national security doesn't exist?


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[mdr55]

of-course a determined enemy will eventually overcome our defenses. But if we thwart 10 attacks and the 11th hits, does that mean that national security doesn't exist?

So what's the justification of wasting money in trying to develop an anti-missile defense shield? Aside from the development of jobs as Bush might say. Bush Logic---- More weapons means more jobs means more weapons. See......being president is easy. And that's why I'm the guy to do it.

This message was edited by mdr55 on 10-9-04 @ 1:18 AM

[furie]

to keep the soviets at bay


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[mdr55]

to keep the soviets at bay


I thought we beat them already? Remember Reagan's "Tear down these walls" speech.

[furie]

the wall coming down and the "collapse" was just a ploy to get us to let our guard down.


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[mdr55]

the wall coming down and the "collapse" was just a ploy to get us to let our guard down.

I knew it! Damn communists. You can't trust those crazy Russians. I say we attack now before they try and take back Alaska. McCarty was right all along.

This message was edited by mdr55 on 10-9-04 @ 1:50 AM

[reeshy]

Jesus...None you people remember the 1963 cuban missle crisis,,,I do I was 11 years old and I distinctly remember when this happened,,I sitting in school and we used to have bomb drills...that;s what they called them...you had to sit under your desk and face away from the window,...I also remember my Dad (he was a ny fireman) telling me mum that if nuclear war broke out and he was at work ......she was to take us(the kids) and drive upstate...and that she probably would never see him again...now those were scary times.....that's what I grew with!!!

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[FUNKMAN]

between the 12,000 or so murders we have a year and throw in the number of deaths caused by drunk drivers i think the terrorists would be the least of our worries...

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[Yerdaddy]

Jesus...None you people remember the 1963 cuban missle crisis,,,I do I was 11 years old and I distinctly remember when this happened,,I sitting in school and we used to have bomb drills...that;s what they called them...you had to sit under your desk and face away from the window,...I also remember my Dad (he was a ny fireman) telling me mum that if nuclear war broke out and he was at work ......she was to take us(the kids) and drive upstate...and that she probably would never see him again...now those were scary times.....that's what I grew with!!!

What were the Civil War Draft Riots like? :|

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[furie]

Jesus...None you people remember the 1963 cuban missle crisis,,, I do I was 11 years old and I distinctly remember when this happened,,I sitting in school and we used to have bomb drills...that;s what they called them...you had to sit under your desk and face away from the window,... I also remember my Dad (he was a ny fireman) telling me mum that if nuclear war broke out and he was at work ...... she was to take us(the kids) and drive upstate...and that she probably would never see him again...now those were scary times..... that's what I grew with!!!


that was all invented by the history channel for ratings


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This message was edited by furie on 10-9-04 @ 1:15 PM

[TheMojoPin]

now those were scary times.....

Until he held you close...and whispered sweet nothings...

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[A.J.]

Until he held you close...and whispered sweet nothings...

"Don't worry about Cuber..."

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