It's obvious how the war will turn out...

[Johnny Fontane]

Elections will be held, the Iraqis will secure their nation, the insurgents will be defeated, democracy will take root in the Middle East, and our soldiers will return home.

NOW HOW FUCKING STUPID DID THAT SOUND?

There's always going to be nonsense in that country, you can't change that. If Saddam or WMDs were the issue, fine, go in there, kick some ass, and get the hell out. Iraq harbors terrorists? Fine, bomb them from here to eternity and explain that when you harbor terrorists it makes us very very mad.

The difference between American soldiers and Iraqi insurgents is this: Americans know that there's something better out there than shooting in the desert. As for the terrorists, this is as good as it gets - they live for this shit - always have and always will.

I'm all for national security, and guess what - I voted for Bush. But please, dying for Iraqi freedom? Give me a break.

http://www.grandinotizie.it/image/g/000/00040.jpg
"The principal benefit acting has afforded me is the money to pay for my psychoanalysis."

This message was edited by Johnny Fontane on 12-25-04 @ 6:52 PM

[keithy_19]

I agree.

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[Snoogans]

i still just wish our president would remember that Iraq wasnt the country that he was elected to make better

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[Bulldogcakes]

There's always going to be nonsense in that country, you can't change that.

And what there's no crime in THIS country? There aren't people killing each other, stealing shit here? Outside of the bombings, every one of those stories could be from the good ol USA. And WE have our share of nutjobs who'd like to bomb stuff, but the cops and feds grab them first. Thats what we're trying to set up over there, and it takes time. Read a little AMERICAN history, we've had a bumpy ride getting to where we are today.

The difference between American soldiers and Iraqi insurgents is this: Americans know that there's something better out there than shooting in the desert. As for the terrorists, this is as good as it gets - they live for this shit - always have and always will.

Right "those people" can't run a democracy, because they're inferior. They have an inferior religion, culture, and they're genetically inferior too. Whatever you say. There was never a less western culture than pre-WW2 Japan, now there's a McDonalds on every corner.

I'm all for national security, and guess what - I voted for Bush. But please, dying for Iraqi freedom? Give me a break.

This I want to believe, because at my heart I'm an isolationist, but in the modern world. With all the modern weapons floating around, and ease of travel, Biological, nuclear materials, its just not possible. I'd love to let them sort out their own shit, but that was our approach pre-9/11. It doesn't work anymore.



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This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 12-26-04 @ 11:26 AM

[Johnny Fontane]

Read a little AMERICAN history


I've got a better idea - read a little WORLD history. These people (the crazy ass terrorists, insurgents, whatever you want to call them) live to fight - they're wired differently than us (and yes, they are inferior to normal humans, BIG TIME). They have that whole martyr mentality, and they think nothing of dying because THEIR LIFE SUCKS...all they have to look forward to is dying and the virgins and all that bullshit.

So basically there will always be insanity in that region. It's going to take a lot more than troops to eliminate the whole jihad mentality.


http://www.grandinotizie.it/image/g/000/00040.jpg
"The principal benefit acting has afforded me is the money to pay for my psychoanalysis."

[FUNKMAN]

diplomacy, sanctions, inspections, and the eventual uprising of Iraqi citizens could have eventually worked...

the cost of life and money have been too high

there are many to blame for the suffering of the Iraqi people besides Saddam. alot of money for the 'oil-for-food' program went into the pockets of corrupt politicians and leaders of foreign countries.

and to think that there has been no American involvement in this corruption then you don't know America

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[SilentSpic]

i still just wish our president would remember that Iraq wasnt the country that he was elected to make better
Excellent point!

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[pitbull#1]

One word describing how this war is going to turn out:

Vietnam

grab your balls because at the rate this conflict is going, its a matter of time before the draft comes back.


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[Bulldogcakes]

I've got a better idea - read a little WORLD history. These people (the crazy ass terrorists, insurgents, whatever you want to call them) live to fight - they're wired differently than us (and yes, they are inferior to normal humans, BIG TIME). They have that whole martyr mentality, and they think nothing of dying because THEIR LIFE SUCKS...all they have to look forward to is dying and the virgins and all that bullshit.

So basically there will always be insanity in that region. It's going to take a lot more than troops to eliminate the whole jihad mentality.

If you're only referring to the terrorists, I retract my remarks. When I hear people say "These People" I think they're referring to Arabs and Muslims in general.
We need to kill, infiltrate, and generally fuck with as many terrorists as possible. Tough to do that with an unfriendly government.
For the people who think Arabs/Muslims cant run a democracy, how do you explain Turkey?



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[TheMojoPin]

Read a little AMERICAN history


I've got a better idea - read a little WORLD history. These people (the crazy ass terrorists, insurgents, whatever you want to call them) live to fight - they're wired differently than us (and yes, they are inferior to normal humans, BIG TIME). They have that whole martyr mentality, and they think nothing of dying because THEIR LIFE SUCKS...all they have to look forward to is dying and the virgins and all that bullshit.

So basically there will always be insanity in that region. It's going to take a lot more than troops to eliminate the whole jihad mentality.

You could have said the same thing about the Japanese after WW2, but that turned out pretty damn well.

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[Johnny Fontane]

When I hear people say "These People" I think they're referring to Arabs and Muslims in general.


Take a look at my initial post - there was never any reference to "these people," so you imagined that. In any event, you retracted that aspect of your remarks, so the point is moot.

We can't stay in Iraq forever, fighting their battles. As I said before, there will always be nonsense in that country. At this point, it's basically a Civil War. Is it impossible to restore sanity in that country? No, I'll give you that. But realistically, how long will it take? A month? A year? Wishful thinking.

As I said before, I voted for Bush, and I was not opposed to going into Iraq in the first place. I work with a guy in his early 20s, a big Bush supporter, and I was kidding him about the fact that he might wind up being drafted. And he told me no, there are plenty of suckers volunteering for that sort of thing. Well, this told me an awful lot about his character. He's obviously a fucking idiot, working in a job that he doesn't deserve (but I digress).

Would a democratic Iraq be in our best interests? Yes, but how long will it take, and is it really worth the sacrifice?



http://www.grandinotizie.it/image/g/000/00040.jpg
"The principal benefit acting has afforded me is the money to pay for my psychoanalysis."

[ChildofFez]

remember the ole days when brave soldiers would die to keep our country free...not another. instead of civilains dying for a country that barely appreciates what we are doing for it.

Mom! Dad thinks he's moon walking, but hes just walking backwards!!!!

[Furtherman]

It would be better for the world if one day all countries were democratic societies.

Never gonna happen.

There are too many regional & cultural differences - some which haven't evolved much in a thousand years.

Iraq is a waste of time, money and most importantly, lives.

Our soliders lives and their family's live will be disrupted for decades - even generations - and Iraq will stay the same.

Nice going W.

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This message was edited by Furtherman on 12-27-04 @ 1:18 PM

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It seems like these Iraqi Nat'l guardsmen are always asleep on the job. How many times do you hear that a handful of insurgents overran a police station and shot 25 guardsmen/policemen execution style. Way to train these guys Bernie Kerik

[Bulldogcakes]

Take a look at my initial post - there was never any reference to "these people," so you imagined that.

Damn bad acid, never been the same since.

We can't stay in Iraq forever, fighting their battles. As I said before, there will always be nonsense in that country. At this point, it's basically a Civil War. Is it impossible to restore sanity in that country? No, I'll give you that. But realistically, how long will it take? A month? A year? Wishful thinking.

Sanity was restored in Bosnia and Kosovo, with a genocide going on. It can be done (I know you agree) How long? I don't think any serious person thinks we'll get out anytime soon. Maybe a slow drawing down of forces over a few years. If we pull out now, the country would decend into chaos. Many more innocent people would be killed in the fighting, and the people who sided with us would be slaughtered. Furthermore, the NEXT crisis that comes up, no one would believe us if we asked them to join us on a future mission. We're stuck. Get used to it. Believe it or not, it can get MUCH worse. For us and them.

Would a democratic Iraq be in our best interests? Yes, but how long will it take, and is it really worth the sacrifice?

Are you fimiliar with the whole "Drain the Swamp" arguement?
Its really the main reason we went to war
(Not WMD's, Not Saddam's UN problems)
It goes like this
Rather than "swat at flies" the terrorists being the "flies"
You remove the conditions they spring from "the swamp"
Dictators in that region impoverish their people, support terrorism,
and blame their problems on us (US) and Israel.
By spreading democracy in that region, they hope to fundamentaly change that equation.
I have problems with this tactic, but I have no better ideas.
And I've yet to hear anyone offer any.

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This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 12-28-04 @ 10:41 PM

[42nd-delay]

You remove the conditions they spring from "the swamp" Dictators in that region impoverish their people, support terrorism

But this doesn't apply to Saddam. He was a dictator, sure, but not a fundamentalist one, and he didn't support terrorists like Al Queda, since they sought to overthrow regimes just like his. Saddam was a terrible and brutal man, but keeping him in power would have assisted us in fighting religiously-motivated terrorists more than kicking him out has.


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"42nd-delay is the only person who's making sense." - Ron, 3-12-02

[Iamnotatool]

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Sorry, I just love this pic, so I am putting it in a war thread.

## Ducks out##

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Please don't hold my huge nutbag against me, or I'll hold it against you that you have flapjack tits

[Bulldogcakes]

But this doesn't apply to Saddam. He was a dictator, sure, but not a fundamentalist one, and he didn't support terrorists like Al Queda, since they sought to overthrow regimes just like his. Saddam was a terrible and brutal man, but keeping him in power would have assisted us in fighting religiously-motivated terrorists more than kicking him out has.

Its not about just Saddam and Iraq. Its about Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria the whole region. Iran has a young population that wants to modernize. Saudi Arabia and Jordan keep saying they'll get more Democratic, but never do. Syria has a dictator whose hold on power is tenuous. They think that with a functioning, prosperous Democracy in the region it will put pressure on the surrounding states (Which it will) to make reforms. The hard part is getting there. Look at the way Communism fell in Europe in the late 80's/early 90's. Look at CHINA right now. When Hong Kong was turned over to China by PM Tony Blair in 1999, he was asked if he thought Communist China would end up smothering Hong Kong. He said No, quite the opposite, we think Hong Kong will influence the rest of China. (Not so Communist anymore) China is now, 5 years later, one of the worlds FASTEST growing economies. Ideas can be very powerful. Freedom is one of them.
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This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 12-29-04 @ 9:29 PM

[Doomstone]

Aah the domino theory. Wonder where we've heard that one before?

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Still Communist

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[A.J.]

Still Communist

"...after a-ll these years."

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[Bulldogcakes]

Just like Eastern Europe right?

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[NewYorkDragons80]

After reading this thread, I think I'll go to a deli to hear some *real* enlightened political conversation.

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