View Full Version : Is McGwire a Hall of Famer?
Bulldogcakes
03-27-2005, 08:16 AM
Not according to the Baseball Writers (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2020890)
In an ESPN poll of 109 Hall of Fame voters, only 43.1 percent said they would definitely vote for McGwire on the first ballot, with 19.3 percent undecided. Another 3.7 percent said they would probably vote for McGwire.
Only 65 of 155 Hall voters told the AP they would vote for McGwire when he becomes eligible in two years or were leaning that way; 52 said no or were leaning that way; and 38 were undecided.
Barry Bonds would get enough support to make it into Cooperstown, but he's far from being a shoo-in, according to results from the AP survey.
Bonds received 105 votes for election, 25 against and 25 were undecided.
Players need 75 percent of the Baseball Writers' Association of America vote to get into the Hall.
McGwire got just 55.6 percent support from those who gave a yes/no response, while Bonds was at 80.8 percent.
"I will not vote for Mark McGwire," Bill Plaschke of the Los Angeles Times told the AP. "It's obvious from his own statements he used some form of performance-enhancing drugs and it's obvious from his statistics he did not become a Hall of Fame-type player until he did so."
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WRESTLINGFAN
03-27-2005, 08:46 AM
Eventually the 500 hr mark probably wont make soeone an automatic shoe in for the Hall. McGwire has a career ba of .263, never won an MVP and is mired in the sterroid controversy. It wouldnt shock me if he wasnt inducted on his 1st try
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WindowSill
03-27-2005, 10:26 AM
Steroids or not, Bonds has to be in. Other guys have taken steroids and they didnt have 73 home run seasons...they didnt hit over 700 home runs...they didnt steal over 600 bases...and lets face it, even though everyone is rooting against him, hes gonna break Aarons record...
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East Side Dave
03-27-2005, 12:16 PM
I like about Mark McGwire when he's on the phone to the Cuba Gooding, Jr. and he's sayin' "Show me some moneeeeey!" And McGwire's like, "Fine!", and he takes that fish out of the office.... that part kills me. Do you think the fish lived?
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Snoogans
03-27-2005, 12:35 PM
bonds yes, cause even before his HR tear, he was a hall of famer. mcgwire wasnt without that HR tear and honestly, no, he doesnt deserve it and i dont think he'll get in
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East Side Dave
03-27-2005, 12:37 PM
Know who should be in? Albert Belle. But whitey's afraid of him, that's why!
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DJEvelEd
03-27-2005, 12:39 PM
If Babe Ruth is in the hall of fame, anyone should be. Babe Ruth never hit negro league pitching and was in no rush to allow blacks into his league. Babe Ruth supported segregation so he was breaking laws by todays standards. McGuire at least could hit a fastball thrown by black pitchers which is more than I can say for Ruth the Rascist.
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East Side Dave
03-27-2005, 12:41 PM
Know why Babe Ruth wore number 3? Because he hit third in the lineup. And Gehrig wore 4 because he hit after The Babe. Now that shit's a fact, I'm telling you!
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Snoogans
03-27-2005, 12:42 PM
ed would you give it up with that stupid shit.
once again, it wasnt Ruth's choice to not have blacks. you'd also have to take away alot of great baseball and basketball players, football too im sure. im sure for awhile, every sport was all white
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Kevin
03-27-2005, 01:28 PM
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">That's a bullshit comment ED. TheÿNegro league were known most for hitters. Not SP. Besides a few pitchers in history before and after the segregation. Name me the great black pitchers? Paige Gibson Gooden Stewart. THATS it. Most great sp have either been Latin or White. Ruth would of hit anybody at anytime.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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This message was edited by Kevin on 3-27-05 @ 5:36 PM
DJEvelEd
03-27-2005, 02:19 PM
<P>The reason that there was not more famous black pitchers is that THEY WERENT ALLOWED TO STRIKE OUT RUTH!!!! I'm sure alot of those black players would have smoked his fat drunk ass.</P>
<P>And Snoogs...back then if Ruth wanted a black guy on his team, he would have it. Ruth was the King of baseball but he never took a stand on this issue. Ruth did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help blacks get into his league. (Similiar to how McGuire & Bonds did nothing to curtail steroids, IT WASN'T IN THEIR BEST INTEREST TO DO SO!!!)...And no I will not give up this arguement because I love exposing hypocracy.</P>
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PhishHead
03-27-2005, 02:26 PM
Ed you should blame Ty Cobb and Hornsby just as well then. Ty Cobb was regarded as a better baseball player then Ruth and having more power then him in baseball as well, even though the other players hated him the owners and managers loved the fact he did anything at all to win. You cant blame other players for not having blacks in the league....Ruth would not be able to convince the entire MLB to let a black person into the league or even his manager. What is he going to do? Threaten to retire and quit?? He wouldnt because he needed money alot of the time, and you still had Gehrig. Im just saying you cant put all the blame on one single person.
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DJEvelEd
03-27-2005, 02:30 PM
You cant blame other players for not having blacks in the league
<P>It all starts with one voice. You've seen those commercials I'm sure...</P>
<P>Babe: "Hey Ty, how bout we allow blacks to pitch to us?"</P>
<P>Ty: "WHATÿARE YOU NUTZ?!?!"</P>
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This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 3-27-05 @ 6:40 PM
Kevin
03-27-2005, 03:06 PM
<FIELDSET style="WIDTH: 450px"><LEGEND><FONT color=#3175bd size=2><STRONG>QUOTE</STRONG><BR></FONT></LEGEND>
<P>The reason that thereÿwas not more famous black pitchers is that THEY WERENT ALLOWED TO STRIKE OUT RUTH!!!! I'm sure alot of those black players would have smoked his fat drunk ass.<BR></P></FIELDSET>
<P>Whats your reason for No dominant black pitchers after the end of segragation? Like i said Paige Gibson Gooden Stewert. None before or after. What stopped other black pitchers from pitching as great as they did? Or even now. Name me one great stud CY Young award black sp? There are none. All Latin or White.I don't care who you are Ruth Gehrig Cobb Ect would ÿhit you.</P>
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This message was edited by Kevin on 3-27-05 @ 7:09 PM
DJEvelEd
03-27-2005, 04:23 PM
<P>What stopped other black pitchers from pitching as great as they did?</P>
<P>The rascism that FOLLOWED desegration. The fact that blacks weren't allowed to organize farm teams as well as whites and were ALWAYS afraid of lynchings or beatings. Put those stresses on Ruth & Cobb and see how relaxed they are at the plate.</P>
<P>I know of a few black pitchers now that would smoke Ruth today like Martinez or Rivera. Hell they could send out Doc Ellis on LSD against Ruth on booze. That I'd like to see!</P>
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TheMojoPin
03-27-2005, 04:42 PM
<P>Most of the WHITE pitchers today would "smoke" Ruth. Comparing the Babe's performance against modern players like that is pretty moot.</P>
<P>Besides, even adding black pitchers at the time wouldn't have somehow magically made Ruth NOT good. And you're talking like there were no good or great white pitchers at the time.</P>
<P>And overall, are you saying EVERY player's record before they desegregated MLB is null and void?</P>
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DJEvelEd
03-27-2005, 04:58 PM
And overall, are you saying EVERY player's record before they desegregated MLB is null and void?
<P>Asteriks for everyone!!!</P>
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This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 3-27-05 @ 8:59 PM
Snoogans
03-27-2005, 05:12 PM
so ed, doesnt that then mean you have to asterisk every negro league record cause they never faced the best white pitchers?
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Kevin
03-27-2005, 05:15 PM
<FIELDSET style="WIDTH: 450px"><LEGEND><FONT color=#3175bd size=2><STRONG>QUOTE</STRONG><BR></FONT></LEGEND>so ed, doesnt that then mean you have to asterisk every negro league record cause they never faced the best white pitchers?<BR><BR>ÿ<BR></FIELDSET>
<P>ÿBingo!!!
<P>You think any of them would have hit RJ or Sandy, Walter Johnson,Clemens ect?.</P>
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This message was edited by Kevin on 3-27-05 @ 9:16 PM
DJEvelEd
03-27-2005, 05:19 PM
NO SNOOGS! Blacks WANTED to play with whitey. Whitey liked organized rascism and the status quo. While whitey was breakin laws that we NOW have, black people suffered from it.(still) Blacks broke no laws by todays standards and STILL could form the Negro League LEGALLY!!! If white people tried to form a White League today it would be more worser than steroids...
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Kevin
03-27-2005, 05:20 PM
Your just grasping now ED.
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WindowSill
03-27-2005, 05:25 PM
Really Ed, you can blame whitey all you want, fact of the matter is thats just the way it was whether Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb or anyone else was for or against it. And as Kevin pointed out with big Unit and Koufax, its a 2 way street. Babe Ruth is still the best baseball player ever. And Ted Williams, the best hitter ever, even if they didnt face black pitchers.
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DJEvelEd
03-27-2005, 05:31 PM
<P>Is that all you got Kev? </P>
<P>If I was Babe Ruth, I would wear a black arm band and when the media would ask me about it I would say:</P>
<P>Ed as Babe Ruth: "I feel that the exclusion of these great Negro players is not in the best interests of the game. I want the best players in the world pitching to me because I never want an * next to my name. I AM THE BEST and I WANNA PROVE IT!"</P>
<P>Ruth's sin was far worse than Bonds's...</P>
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WindowSill
03-27-2005, 05:35 PM
This was a time where black people couldnt even go to the same bathrooms as white folk, you think theyd let blacks anywhere near the nations most respected athletes?
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DJEvelEd
03-27-2005, 05:37 PM
Who's fault is that? People like Ruth/Cobb who had a public forum to say something that's who.
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WindowSill
03-27-2005, 05:40 PM
Right, but segregation was just accepted by society at that point. No one thought the wiser. No one cared enough to speak out against it until like the 40s...
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DJEvelEd
03-27-2005, 05:46 PM
Ruth had more of an unfair advantage than Bond's did.
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WindowSill
03-27-2005, 05:53 PM
Because he didnt face guys like Satchel Paige who weren't even around back then? Does Bonds face a great pitcher every time hes a t bat? Babe Ruth, after pitching for 4 years, and really damn well mind you, went on to hit 715 home runs BEFORE the mounds were lowered. BEFORE they changed the balls. BEFORE everyteam had a guy who hit over 30 home runs. Babe Ruth, in one year, hit more homeruns than all but one major league team. "Unfair" advantage or not, the guy was an incredible hitter whether it be his era or another. Not a single athlete has been able to, or will ever be able to do something of that caliber.
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badorties
03-27-2005, 06:15 PM
<P> </P>
<P>no ... </P>
<P>but he'll probably get in on the third or fourth ballot ...</P>
<P> </P>
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Back to the original question: "no", I don't think McGwire belongs in the Hall.
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Kevin
03-27-2005, 08:51 PM
NO
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WindowSill
03-28-2005, 03:26 AM
I dont think McGwire "belongs" in the Hall. He will however make it in when talent begins to thin out and theres no one else on the ballot thats worthy of goin in.
Question. Theres been years where no ones been inducted, right?
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Freebird
03-28-2005, 06:17 AM
Ed, first you talk about Ruth and Cobb, why do you have to go and bring in Whitey Ford?
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Kevin
03-28-2005, 08:31 AM
<FIELDSET style="WIDTH: 450px"><LEGEND><FONT color=#3175bd size=2><STRONG>QUOTE</STRONG><BR></FONT></LEGEND>I dont think McGwire "belongs" in the Hall. He will however make it in when talent begins to thin out and theres no one else on the ballot thats worthy of goin in. <BR><BR>Question. Theres been years where no ones been inducted, right?<BR><BR><BR>
<CENTER><BR> <BR></CENTER></FIELDSET> <BR>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I know for a fact that there have been years when the veterans committee has not voted anyone in. This year was the most recent. I'm not sure about the regular Voters.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><BR><BR>
<CENTER><BR><IMG src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/Kevin2700/Comincopy.jpg" border=0> <BR>The strong man is not the good wrestler; the strong man is only the one who controls himself when he is angry. <BR></CENTER>
This message was edited by Kevin on 3-28-05 @ 12:31 PM
Doogie
03-28-2005, 09:20 AM
<FIELDSET><FONT size=1>McGwire has a career ba of .263, never won an MVP and is mired in the sterroid controversy</FONT></FIELDSET> <BR>
<P> </P><BR>
<P>Yes, but Ozzie Smith is in and he has some of the worst offensive numbers alone. Unfortunatly poor Mac is caught up in this whole steroid thing, and I do have to applaud him for taking the stand that he did before that witch hunt that congress initiated. Mac's position was in a way to protect perhaps himself and others embarrassment, and hurt that scum like Canseco started.</P>
<P> Sure it wasnt exactly the smartest move, and will be seen as hugely unpopular. But like it or not, McGwire is one of the few guys who have saved the game in the last few years. And his numbers are a strong testimony to letting him in. He was also a world class representative, along with Sammy Sosa, for baseball during that magical summer of 1998. Christ Cobb was a rascist and a wife beater. Yet I still cant deny the fact that he is in fact probably one of the greatest players of all time.</P><BR>
<FIELDSET><FONT size=1>If Babe Ruth is in the hall of fame, anyone should be. Babe Ruth never hit negro league pitching </FONT></FIELDSET> <BR>
<P>Wow, that is a powerful and great statement. That is a great argument for letting in McGwire. However...</P><BR>
<FIELDSET><FONT size=1>Babe Ruth supported segregation so he was breaking laws by todays standards</FONT></FIELDSET> <BR>
<P> </P><BR>
<P>Where is your evidence of this?? In fact Ruth played in many exhibition games that featured major league all-stars versus negro league all-stars. Ruth has been quoted on a few of those occassions saying that those players should be allowed to play MLB.</P><BR>
<P> How was Babe Ruth supporting segregation when in fact it was the lords of baseball, the owners who colluded to keep blacks out until 1947, who colluded to keep the reserved clause until the 1970's and who colluded in the 1980's NOT to sign any free agents. The lords of baseball are more to blame, but I actually fault Selig more than anyone. He is the worst commissioner, even worse than Happy Chandler. And I can honestly say that MLB wouldnt be facing these difficulties if Fay Vincent wasnt pushed out. Look Baseball went on strike and cancelled the World Series under Selig's reign. It allowed the great sin of interleague play which waters down the real power of the world series and under Selig's reign baseball has become mired in this controversy. Bring back men of character and stature to the office of commissioner.</P><BR><BR><IMG src="http://thereisnogod.faithweb.com/images/doogie.gif">
This message was edited by Doogie76 on 3-28-05 @ 1:24 PM
DJEvelEd
03-28-2005, 01:01 PM
I have no HARD evidence, just heresay about racism in baseball.(especially Cobb). Add to the fact that nothing was done for YEARS because people like Ruth/Cobb never took a stand against the black lockout. (which I personally feel is worse than sticking things in your butt). Whether I'm right or wrong, it certainly is a point that should be brought up when comparing asteriks for breaking laws.
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TheMojoPin
03-28-2005, 03:14 PM
No it's not.
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Bulldogcakes
03-28-2005, 04:18 PM
<p align="center"><img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/images/quotetop.gif"><br>Yes, but Ozzie Smith is in and he has some of the worst offensive numbers alone<br><img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/images/quotebottom.gif"></p>
<br>
<br>Talk about apples and oranges. Ozzie Smith is a Hall of Famer for his GLOVE. Plain and simple. McGwire was a HIDEOUS 1st baseman whose best attribute was the long ball. Two TOTALLY different ballplayers. Get a direct comparison for Pete's sake.
<br>
<br>Also, I hate this "lowest common denominator" bullshit with the hall of fame. Ozzie Smith had a .263 avg, so now lets let in a bunch of other .263 hitters. He is the EXCEPTION, not the rule. He's the best fielding shortstop of all time. AND it's a defense-oriented position (unlike 1st base)
<br>
<br>If you want to use the Ozzie Smith/Tony Perez/Gaylord Perry/Don Sutton/Bill Mazerowski baseline, you'll have to let in a ZILLION other guys! It's ridiculous, and would eventually make the Hall meaningless. <br><br><img src='http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/Kevin2700/bulldaogcopy.jpg' border=0>
<br>
<br>
<br>Can placebos cause side effects? And if so, are the side effects real?
<font color=black>This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 3-28-05 @ 8:19 PM</font>
Doogie
03-28-2005, 06:05 PM
<FIELDSET><FONT size=1>Add to the fact that nothing was done for YEARS because people like Ruth/Cobb never took a stand against the black lockout</FONT></FIELDSET>
<P> </P>
<P>Once again you have to blame the Lords of Baseball who had an Oligarchy based on fear. Proof of players "taking a stand" include the Federal League, players trying to negotiate for themselves (Ruth, DiMaggio, Williams, Curt Flood, etc) and being demeaned and exploited by owners. The owners are the ones to blame for all that. However there was one owner/GM/Manager who actually did an attempt in the 1920's to get a black ballplayer into the majors. That person was John McGraw, and he tried to get a player from the Negro Leagues by saying that he was native indian. The plan was for him to play a few seasons then reveal his real background. When the plan was discovered, the other owners completely blocked McGraw including threatening to take over his organization. The point, the lords of baseball are the ones to blame for a lot of this fiasco. Sure they arent the ones shooting steroids into these guys, but they didnt exactly do the right thing either. And the only time they do anything is when there exemption from the Anti-Trust clause gets threatend.</P>
<P>McGwire is a Hall of Famer, plain and simple. Will he get in with Ripken and Gwynn on the first shot? Probably not. But the other thing you have to take into account is the fact that the baseball is wound like a golfball. Another reason for the increase in home runs in the last decade. So if you also want to add an asterix, put it next to baseball for being a 'cheat' and allowing guys who had career totals of HR's equal what they hit in one season. Ie Kevin Elster blasted out 25 HR's in 1995; his total up to that point was 30. As for other people that should be in the Hall, the one case I have been arguing for in the last few years is Gil Hodges. But that is a whole 'notheer story.</P>
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