The End of the Filibuster

[FMJeff]

<p>Does anybody except Senate Democrats care about the loss of the filbuster? From what I can tell its a procedural loophole used by those in the Senate to delay the inevitable, a vote on an issue. Since inevitably the vote will come to pass depending on which side has the majority at the time, as in this debate over appelate judges, who the fuck cares?</p><p>If it is the will of the people to have thier representatives vote these judges into power and they are willing to stand idly by out of ignorance,&nbsp;then so be it. Too many powers of delay, this Congress has. Vote and move on.&nbsp;When and if the country begins to suffer from poor judicial appointments, GOP senators will hear it...or they won't...b/c in the end, Americans don't care unless it directly affects them on a broad scale, and even then it has to continually affect them otherwise they just settle back into thier own lives.</p><p>Fuck it. </p>

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[furie]

well said!<br />


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[HBox]

<p>1. Judicial appointments are for life. If they
get a nutcase in the judiciary, they stay there until they retire or
die. They are immune, which is hwo it should be if we can keep the
nutcases out in the first place. This one issue will probably affect us
more than anything else going on this term.<br />
</p><p>2. A filibuster is infinite. It's unlimited debate. So if the
minority feels strongly enough, they can keep debate going forever.
It's usually the majority that just gives up and stops wasting time.
There is no eventual vote anyway. It's not a time waster. It's a way
for a minority to stop something they are VERY opposed to.</p><p>3.
Personally, I'm for anything that keeps out people on the farthest
extremes ideologically, and this does that. That works both ways. </p><p>4.
This is only the last way for the minority to influence judicial
appointments. All the others were abolished by Republicans since Bush
entered office such as the &quot;blue slip.&quot; Blue slips allowed senators to
remove candidates from contention that were from their home state if
they chose. And, yes, Republicans used these measures liberally during
the Clinton administration.</p><p>5. Look who is fighting so hard for this on the right. The religious extremists. Put two and two together.</p><p>6.
This is only a precursor to a Supreme Court appointment. Republicans
could tip the balance of the judiciary to the extreme right very
quickly.<br />
</p>

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[PapaBear]

<p>Someone should make a movie about filibusters...</p><p><img height="400" src="http://www.123hit.be/ecards/images/pic_2002-12-20_145015.jpg" width="400" border="0" /></p>

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[ChickenHawk]

Amen, HBox.

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[HBox]

<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7946197/" target="_blank">I really hope these Senators can succeed.</a><br />


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[A.J.]

<p>In the grad scheme of things, losing the filibuster won't mean the end of the world.</p><p>However, if we lose the Continuing Resolution -- then we're FUCKED.</p>

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[spoon]

<p>Well stated HBox.&nbsp; Way too often do I hear comments like Jeff's (sorry, just saw star wars/yoda).&nbsp;&nbsp;The republicans and conservative radio say things over and over, even when they&nbsp;are pure lies, and the public eventually just repeats them.&nbsp; Hannity is so fucking evil I fear looking&nbsp;at him directly.&nbsp;&nbsp;Jeff is right in the fact that people just don't seem to care.&nbsp; I either hear, &quot;oh come on&quot;, &quot;we can't do anything&quot; or &quot;i don't really care&quot; if I bring up the lies or bullshit of this administration.&nbsp; To me, this is the worst political landscape of my lifetime.&nbsp; Granted I'm&nbsp;not that old, but it's getting really fucking scary.&nbsp; </p>

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[FMJeff]

<p>HBOX, its not that I'm all for this, I'm saying this is the will of the people...accept it or not this is our country, religious, ignorant, uneducated, bible humpers...for the most part, anyway. Let the teach Adam &amp; Eve instead of evolution. Fuck it. I'll dance on the ashes of what could have been. </p><p>Yes, I've given up. This is not going to get better, so why not embrace the shit like the religious right has and gain as much power as you can until this country is completely shot. I for one feel embracing it is a better position mentally to be in than feeling powerless. The phone calls, letters, emails and petitions I've signed have done absolutely diddely squat to effect any kind of change. I've exhausted the democratic process. The essential flaw of our Constitution is becoming clearly evident. Representatives of the people DO NOT represent the people, for the most part. You're LUCKY if the representative you elect actually cares about you...you're lucky if he's a statesman...a patriot. It's a rarity. Let them have thier pork. Fuck it. I'm completely flabbergasted by the whole process. I'm past the point of feeling sad for the state of affairs. I'm gleefully waiting for the end. </p>

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[Shaka]

<font size="2"><strong>Main Entry: ob&middot;struc&middot;tion&middot;ism<br />Pronunciation: </strong>-sh&amp;-&quot;ni-z&amp;m<br /><strong>Function: </strong><em>noun</em><br /><strong>Date: </strong>1879<br /><strong>:</strong> deliberate interference with the progress or business especially of a legislative body </font><br />

[Death Metal Moe]

<p>Love the Filibuster.</p><p>Next topic.</p>

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[Doctor Manhattan]

[QUOTE] <p>ANAKIN:...<strong>I don't think the system works.</strong></p><p>PADM�: <strong>How would you have it work?</strong></p><p>ANAKIN: <strong>We need a system where the politicians sit down and<br />discuss the problem, agree what's in the best interests of<br />all the people, and then do it.</strong></p><p>PADM�: <strong>That is exactly what we do. The trouble is that<br />people don't always agree. In fact, they hardly ever do.</strong></p><p>ANAKIN: <strong>Then they should be made to.</strong></p><p>PADM�: <strong>By whom? Who's going to make them?</strong></p><p>ANAKIN: <strong>I don't know. Someone.</strong></p><p>PADM�: <strong>You?</strong></p><p>ANAKIN: <strong>Of course not me.</strong></p><p>PADM�: <strong>But someone.</strong></p><p>ANAKIN: <strong>Someone wise.</strong></p><p>PADM�: <strong>That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me.</strong></p><p>ANAKIN: <strong>Well, if it works...</strong>[<strong>/</strong>QUOTE]</p><p><img height="529" src="http://www.evula.org/dragoon/pics/darth_cheney.jpg" width="400" border="0" /></p>

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[DarkHippie]

The fillibuster is important because without it, the minority has&nbsp;little say in government.&nbsp; And when I say majority, it's 51 to 49.&nbsp; The majority can effectively ramrod any halfassed judge they want, or if it expands, any law.&nbsp; The fillibuster is the only defense for a minority to keep extreme idiology out of government.&nbsp;&nbsp;A fillibuster can be ended right now with&nbsp;60 votes, so its not like it automatically kills a law/judge/whatever&nbsp;

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[SatCam]

Can't they fillibuster the fillibuster bill?

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[torker]

<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<img height="166" src="http://home19.inet.tele.dk/freakman/images/baggrunde/xpac.jpg" width="253" border="0" /> </p><p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ClenisBuster</p>

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[center]

[Bulldogcakes]

<p>Agreed Jeff. </p><p>Though it is a bargaining chip the minority has
just lost. And one day the Republicans may wish they had it back. But
its just on this one issue, judicial nominations, where its never been
used before. The country will survive. But look, they won the election,
they get to put in their guys.&nbsp; If you dont like it, try harder to
win the next election. Which I think means move more to the middle.
Thats how Clinton won. </p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>This is my idea of a &quot;Philly buster&quot;&nbsp;</p><p>http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/c/r/cru107/item-cheesesteak.JPG</p><p>I cant breathe after these things&nbsp;</p>


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[WRESTLINGFAN]

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O and A... PARTY ROCK!!!!!

[HBox]

<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7957374/" target="_blank">They reached a deal. Let's all give a standing ovation for the return of bipartisanship.</a><br />

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[WRESTLINGFAN]

Im glad there wasnt a &quot;Nuclear Option&quot; I wouldnt want to see a mushroom cloud over the Capitol

O and A... PARTY ROCK!!!!!

[El Mudo]

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[spoon]

<p>&quot;If you dont like it, try harder to win the next election. Which I think means <strong>move more to the middle</strong>. Thats how Clinton won.&quot; </p><p>Move more to the middle?&nbsp; You're kidding right?&nbsp; How about the right comes back to the middle a little.&nbsp; Inform me on the crazy leftist policy that Kerry or any recent Dem pushed during the last election.&nbsp; What great middle ground was it that led to the election of Bush and other repubs?&nbsp; I am quick to say we need our Dems to actually be Dems and fight for the policy we actually want.&nbsp; Enough of the games with the Republicans.</p>

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[furie]

<p><font color="black"><font size="0"><font face="verdana"></font></font></font><font size="0" face="verdana" color="black">What great middle ground was it that led to the election of Bush and other repubs?</font></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>the prescripon bill and the medicare reform bill. <br />
</p><font size="0" face="verdana" color="black" />


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[FMJeff]

<p>Republicans got the juice now, what can I say? Senate democrats look weathered and beaten. We can't seem to find a candidate to rally behind. Nobody seems to have&nbsp;any idea what this country is about, except maybe Obama, but I don't see him running for president anytime soon, and it'll be quite some time before he's a member of the democratic leadership provided he can keep up that energy level that got him elected in the first place. The next election's gonna be tough. Edwards was good vice president material because he was handsome and not stupid, and we all know the VP is a look good, shut the fuck up kind of job. I'll certainly never vote for him. Kerry I'll certainly never vote for again. He was an embarassment to the party for not fighting harder. He may had been articulate, he may had been intelligent, but his position was as middle of the road as any democrat I've ever seen, and I don't think we need a moderate anymore in office. I don't think that's what the American people want. If we are a left leaning country with strong religious morality, than that's what we need, a strong religious liberal. As they say in the West Wing, we're looking for the real thing. and Kerry was not it. Sorry to see Howard Dean go, really. Someone like him without the insane bravado would get my vote. </p>

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<br>
It made my heart sing.

[FMJeff]

<font style="font-size: 9px" face="Verdana">quote: </font><p>Agreed Jeff. </p><br />By the way, pigs have officially flown.

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<br>
It made my heart sing.

[HBox]

<p>&nbsp;</p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font><font size="0" face="verdana" color="black">Senate democrats look weathered and beaten.</font> <br />
<p>&nbsp;</p><p><font color="Navy"><font size="2">How? They stood up remarkably well against
Bush on Social Security, and with this deal made Frist look like he has
no control. Frist was the one pushing hardest, insisting that every
candidate get a vote. He didn't have great things to say about this
deal. The moderates in his party swept the rug right from under him.
I've been happy with how they've been doing.</font></font></p><p><font color="Navy"><font size="2">You can't expect them to be in control of the agenda because they are not in control of the agenda. They are the minority party.</font></font></p><p><font color="Navy"><font size="2">And, looking forward to 2008, its way too far away to speculate. Nobody saw (Bill)Clinton coming.</font></font><br />
</p>

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<font color=black>This message was edited by HBox on 5-24-05 @ 2:24 AM</font>

[FMJeff]

<p>Social Security is the easiest fight to lose because it directly affects the American people, and like I said before, many Americans just don't care unless it continually and directly affects them on a personal level. </p><p>Many&nbsp;seniors live off social security and many baby boomers are counting on social security benefits when they retire. Those are huge constituencies to piss off and lot of votes to lose.</p><p>All democrats needed to do in this situation is paint privatization as a colossal mistake&nbsp;and the debate was over. </p><p>As for why they look weathered and beaten, this &quot;bipartisan compromise&quot; was merely a bone thrown at the Democrats for what I'm sure are huge compromises in the future. The GOP didn't HAVE to give them anything, and it shows. They get 3 out of 5 nominations for vote, and the minority get to filibuster the remaining 2 aka GOP telling the Dems who they can and cannot filibuster aka dems have lost some major ground in the fight against extremist judges.</p><img src="http://www.ronfez.net/imagestorage/fmjeff.gif" border="0" /> <br />It made my heart sing.

<font color=black>This message was edited by FMJeff on 5-24-05 @ 6:13 AM</font>

[Bulldogcakes]

<font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font><p> Nobody seems
to have any idea what this country is about, except maybe Obama, but I
don't see him running for president anytime soon, and it'll be quite
some time before he's a member of the democratic leadership provided he
can keep up that energy level that got him elected in the first place.</p><p>&nbsp;</p>I like Obama alot. A real grown up, and a great American success story.
But he is too wet behind the ears to be running anytime soon. And he
has alot of work to do, both legislatively and in raising his profile.
WE may be ready to elect a Black President (I hope so) but we're not
going to elect an inexperienced one. White or Black. Thats why Edwards
went down. <br />

<p> </p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font>I don't think we need a
moderate anymore in office. I don't think that's what the American
people want. If we are a left leaning country with strong religious
morality, than that's what we need, a strong religious liberal. As they
say in the West Wing, we're looking for the real thing. and Kerry was
not it.<p> </p><p>I
disagree. I think this whole religious thing has been misinterpreted
and overblown. DEMOCRATS have a message that should appeal religious
types. But they have to get past the notion that the message of
religion is a Conservative message. Gay rights, Human rights,
Enviromentalism, Taking care of the less fortunate, can all be sold in
a religious context. The Democratic party needs to reinvent itself. The
same way the Republicans threw Pat Buchanan out, Democrats need to stop
trying to have it both ways and dump some of their more extreme
elements. The ones Republicans keep hitting them over the head with.
</p><p> </p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font>Sorry to see Howard Dean go, really. Someone like him without
the insane bravado would get my vote<p> </p>

I think that bavado is a product of a humongous ego. Which
always turns me off, and is part of the problem w/Bush. Guys w/ big
egos get into pissing matches, which we dont need. Give me someone
reasonable and rational. <br />



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<font color="black" />

<font color=black>This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 5-24-05 @ 6:58 AM</font>

[FMJeff]

<p>Eh....I dunno Bulldog...I don't think you can even BE president unless you're full of yourself...I mean, how could you not? You <strong>really</strong> gotta think you're the cats meow to stand in front of a nation of people and say &quot;I'm the man. I'm your leader. Pick me&quot;. </p>

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<br>
It made my heart sing.

[Bulldogcakes]

<p>Lets rate big egos and see if its necessarily part of the job description<br />
</p><p>GW Bush-Yes, the size of Texas. </p><p>Clinton-Yes, wanted to BE president more than do anything in particular. <br />
</p><p>Bush 1-Ambitious, sure. I dont think he had a huge ego. Wouldn't be &quot;prudent&quot;</p><p>Reagan-As
an ex actor, he certainly loved the camera. But I think he wanted to DO
certain things more than have his ego stroked. I'll give him a No. </p><p>Carter-Again,
very religious guy. Wanted to lead the country in a positive direction.
Didn't work out that way. Continued his social work after his Presidency.
Definite No. </p><p>Ford-Forget him, he was never elected</p><p>Nixon-A mixture of Ego, ambition and religious upbringing. A very complicated Yes. <br />
</p><p>Johnson-Huge ego. &quot;I'm not going to be the first American Pres to lose a war&quot; as thousands died. </p><p>Kennedy-Rich kid. I think wanted to be Pres just to fuck Marilyn Monroe. Yes. </p><p> </p><p>I'd say its true more often than not. But not a requirement. </p><p> </p>


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Do Siamese twins have to file seperate tax returns? Or do they file jointly?

<font color=black>This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 5-24-05 @ 6:39 PM</font>

[spoon]

<p>&quot;the prescripon bill and the medicare reform bill.&quot;</p><p>This is your example of middle of the road?&nbsp; How funny!&nbsp;&nbsp;Big pharma basically wrote those bills, just&nbsp;like the banking industry wrote the bankruptcy&nbsp;bill.&nbsp; That's about as far right as one can get, and&nbsp;great&nbsp;examles of who the republicans really work for.&nbsp; Hell,&nbsp;even the the Dems&nbsp;from DE voted for the bankruptcy bill.&nbsp; I wonder if it&nbsp;has&nbsp;anything to do with that state&nbsp;being the&nbsp;HQ for almost all&nbsp;of the big banks?&nbsp; Of course it does, and the money they put toward&nbsp;all candidates&nbsp;from that state was at risk if they voted against it and the credit bill as well.&nbsp; </p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&quot;Edwards was good vice president material because he was handsome and not stupid, and we all know the VP is a look good, shut the fuck up kind of job.&quot;</p><p>Wait, does Dick fit this mold at all?&nbsp; Oh sorry, he's really the president.&nbsp; My bad.&nbsp; Not to mention he tells others to &quot;fuck themselves&quot;, as opposed to shutting up.&nbsp; Where is the terror alert at these days?</p><p>As for the country, as a whole we continue to vote against our best interest.&nbsp; Kerry wasn't a great choice, but Bush was a horrible one.&nbsp; Where in this country were the people pushing for the bankruptcy bill &amp; credit bill during the election of 2004?&nbsp; They weren't.&nbsp; The majority of Americans are in favor of stem cell research, yet this true mandate has been promised to be vetoed by GWB.&nbsp; We need religion out of white house politics all together.&nbsp; </p><p>I also agree with Hbox on the Dems and their fight as the minority in the senate.&nbsp; I approach the compromise with caution, especially since Frist is already attacking the moderates along with all the other extreme right repubs.&nbsp; I'm sure Dobson already threatened Frist since the nuclear option seems to be off the table and hence religion has it's hands all over the senate and the government.&nbsp; Perhaps they should pay their share of taxes since they have pushed their way into politics.&nbsp; </p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&quot;Social Security is the easiest fight to lose because it directly affects the American people, and like I said before, many Americans just don't care unless it continually and directly affects them on a personal level.&quot;</p><p>Jeff, I don't think it's that simple.&nbsp; The republican corporatists have done a great job selling the American public on problems that didn't exist in the past (Iraq war for one).&nbsp; If the Dems weren't there to fight this, it surely would have gone through.&nbsp; We know the tactics they use, hence we need to adapt and be ready.&nbsp; They have been very effective at falsely naming initiatives which actually do the exact opposite of what they sound like.&nbsp; For example:&nbsp; &quot;No Child Left Behind&quot; and &quot;The Clear Skies Initiative&quot;.&nbsp; Simply put, they are putting one over on the very people who voted for them.&nbsp; We need to be very vocal about these things and do just what Jeff stated above that works.&nbsp; Show the American public how it affects them on a personal level on a daily basis.&nbsp; </p><p>&nbsp;</p><p><br />&nbsp;</p><img src="http://members.aol.com/dxixrxt/spoon2.jpg" border="0" /> Get your balls out of your purse and step up to flavor! With whale cancer! F yeah!

<font color=black>This message was edited by spoon on 5-24-05 @ 7:03 PM</font>

[spoon]

<p>&quot;....but we're not going to elect an inexperienced one.&quot;</p><p>I agree inexperienced candidates won't&nbsp;have much of a chance, but I'd like to see less lifetime politicans running for all forms of office.&nbsp; Term limits and PAC donation limits are truly needed if we really want our politicians working for the common man and not corporate america.&nbsp; </p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>I also agree with Jeff on needing a touch of conceit/arrogance in our president.&nbsp; Just as you wouldn't want an unsure surgeon, one needs a very self confident leader.&nbsp; However this same quality can be very dangerous when one yields it without any care for the other side's opinion.&nbsp; I had the pleasure of actually meeting Dean in 2003 and found him to be very down to earth and yet very strong willed.&nbsp; He was very real to me and I'd vote for him in a second over both of our last two choices.&nbsp; The whole excitability issue at his rally was way overblown.&nbsp; The fact that he poked fun at himself on that radio commercial, even though it essentially knocked him out of the presidential race, shows me a lot&nbsp;about his character.&nbsp; &nbsp;</p>

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[spoon]

<p>&quot;GW Bush-Yes, the size of Texas.&quot;</p><p>&quot;Ford-Forget him, he was never elected&quot;</p><p>Too easy.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>And Nixon had a HUGE EGO, not a complicated yes.&nbsp; (And thanks, now I'm craving an eggo waffle.)</p>

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[high fly]

<font style="font-size: 9px" face="Verdana">quote: </font><p>&quot;....but we're not going to elect an inexperienced one.&quot;</p><p>I agree inexperienced candidates won't&nbsp;have much of a chance, but I'd like to see less lifetime politicans running for all forms of office.&nbsp; Term limits and PAC donation limits are truly needed if we really want our politicians working for the common man and not corporate america.&nbsp; </p><p></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>I cannot agree with you on term limits.</p><p>Every election is a chance for the electorate to term-limit the ass of whoever's in office. Even <em>with </em>term limits, all they do is just run for a different office. There are times when the people think they have an exceptionally good officeholder whom they would not like to get lose, but must because of term limits.</p><p>Those who were big fans of Ronald &quot;Dutch&quot; Reagan and Superstar Bill Clinton I am sure believe we would have been beter off with another term by them, rather than who was elected afterwards.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>I agree with you that more must be done to limit the influence of big money on our elections.</p>[/quote]

" and they ask me why I drink"
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Big ups to sex bomb baby Katylina (LHOOQ) for the sig!

[spoon]

<p>&quot;Every election is a chance for the electorate to term-limit the ass of whoever's in office.&quot;</p><p>Great point, but sometimes these limits seem needed.&nbsp; Perhaps a high ceiling is appropriate, but at least something to keep senate candidates to at least 4 terms and around 5 for congress.&nbsp; I really don't think this is unreasonable.&nbsp; It would at least change up the committee leadership more often as well.&nbsp; That's where the big money is made.</p>

<img src="http://members.aol.com/dxixrxt/spoon2.jpg">

Get your balls out of your purse and step up to flavor!
With whale cancer!
F yeah!