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Knowledged_one

06-16-2005, 05:20 AM

First Amnesty International compares the camp to the Gulag'sNow 2nd in command of the Democratic Party Richard Durbin has compared the Camp to the Nazi Death Camps.However, Rumsfeld has called the base necessary.....What's your opinion do we need this camp?

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Tazz

06-16-2005, 05:29 AM

Well I for one would much rather have those distinguished gentleman loose on the streets of this world. I am sure they wouldn't do anyone any harm, would they?

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Furtherman

06-16-2005, 07:27 AM

It would be a big mistake to shut it down.  We need it.

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FUNKMAN

06-16-2005, 10:34 AM

guess it could be called the 'lesser of two evils''two wrongs don't make a right' and what i like to add is "one wrong don't make a right either"...see i'm smart, i can do things

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DarkHippie

06-16-2005, 01:03 PM

I would call it the greater of two evils.  Most of these prisoners are POWs from Afghanistan.  Our government refuses to see them as POWs because the Taliban wasn't the legitimate government (however they were the government in power and controlled the army)So if they're not POWs then they must be criminals right?  Charge them and let them be convicted (Us courts have already ruled this to be the case).  Our government refuses and calls them "enemy combatants."Enemy combatants?  That sure sounds like a pOW to me?  And so we go around through all this red tape while these people live the rest of their lives in prison: no day in court, no protection through the Geneva Convention.America cannot take part in such moral ambiguousness.  It we are to support freedom, it must be freedom for all.  at least give these people a day in court.

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keithy_19

06-16-2005, 03:06 PM

Would a day in court actually help them though? Like, would they actually have a chance of getting off? 

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Snoogans

06-16-2005, 03:11 PM

if they didnt have this, martin lawerence and will smith woulda been killed by that crazy cuban guy 

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torker

06-16-2005, 03:54 PM

Are there franchise opportunities?  Sounds like business is good.(the return of keithy_19. nice!) 

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TheMojoPin

06-16-2005, 04:27 PM

quote: Would a day in court actually help them though? Like, would they actually have a chance of getting off? <img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/keithy.gif" border="0" /> The problem with that thinking is that for a ton of the guys there, we have no evidence that proves they are actually "terrorists," but we're effectively holding them indefinitely in legal limbo just because we have a hunch they MIGHT be.  And  I'm sorry, but if we want to realistically still see ourselves as "the good guys," this kinda shit won't cut it.  We can't have it both ways. 

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Yerdaddy

06-17-2005, 04:26 AM

What DarkHippie said. This Gitmo thing is really hurting the reputation of this country and the credibility of the "rule of law" in general. We're sending the wrong message - that the rule of law is good when it's convenient, but should be dispensed with when inconvenient. But the implimentation and strengthening of the rule of law is exactly the kind of thing that we have to achieve in order to defeat terrorism and tyrrany in the long run. I see the effects of this every day now. If we don't exeplify that principle then who will?We must have a reason for our suspicions about each of these individuals and any court - especially the military courts that the Supreme Court has allowed and even demanded to try these cases - will rule on these cases more generally on the side of caution. But just by not holding any sort of legitimate judicial proceedings on these people sends the message that we don't think Arabs and/or Muslims deserve rights or freedoms and it undermines our entire foreign policy. We look like undemocratic dicks, basically. Again.So keep the prison, but abide by the Sureme Court's ruling on the constitutionality of keeping the prisoners there. How hard is that?

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A.J.

06-18-2005, 01:54 AM

They should have been killed in Afghanistan.

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TheMojoPin

06-18-2005, 05:48 AM

They're not all from Afghanistan, OR Iraq.That's a key part that seems to be missed...many of the prisoners there were not anything even close to being "enemy combatants"...they were just citizens from countries throughout the Middle East, Asia, Europe and America who are supposedly suspected of SOMETHING, arretsed, and held indefinitely without being charged or tried.  THOSE are the hundreds of guys that have been released since this debacle started, and are still being arrested and held at this very moment.  And what has been accomplished out of all of that?  29 actual proven and convicted terrorists?  It's one thing to capture a guy who's been shooting at you or trying to blow you up in a combat area (yet none of these guys can be subjected to the Geneva Convention, go figure)...it's another to drag him out of his home and place of business anywhere around the world and dump him in a military prison free of ANY country's legal system or rulings just because of what amounts to nothing better than a hunch.  How does THAT help us?Plus, you get right down to it...when has torture worked for ANYTHING except for making the people doing or condoning the torture feel better?  Torture, in terms of useful intelligence gathering, doesn't work, period.  All it does is make the person being tortured tell you what they think you WANT to hear, usually not what they actually know, IF they know anything in the first place!

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WRESTLINGFAN

06-18-2005, 05:57 AM

There were reports of loud rap music blaring to try to get the detainees to talk. If you really want to torture them, Have them listen to continuous Michael Bolton cds at high volumes.In all seriousness some of these guys probably would want to stay @ Gitmo, they get 3 squares a day, indoor plumbing, air conditioning, exercise etc, most of them never had "luxuries" like this before. 

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DarkHippie

06-18-2005, 02:02 PM

In all seriousness some of these guys probably would want to stay @ Gitmo, they get 3 squares a day, indoor plumbing, air conditioning, exercise etc, most of them never had "luxuries" like this before.Except for . . . you know . . . getting to see their families again.  A humane prison is still a prison, and no one wants to be there.

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Bulldogcakes

06-18-2005, 07:06 PM

I seriously doubt "Civilan" justice can deal with these prisoners, or should. First of all, they're not US citizens and are not entitled to the legal protections you or I are. Second
the Military cannot be expected to collect evidence the way your local
police dept does. Military and Police work are fudamentally different,
for alot of reasons.  Third, the nature of Terrorism does
not easily fall into the Geneva convention guidelines, which was
designed for warring countries.  I say give them Military
Tribunals, which I think(?) most have already recieved. It's shitty
justice, but will have to do for these folks. To release them back to
their homelands, particularily the Al-Quaeda and Taliban fighters, is
insane. Can you imagine a 9/11 part 2 which gets linked to released
POW's?   BTW It's worth noting that some prisoners HAVE been released, ones who were clearly there improperly.  

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TheMojoPin

06-18-2005, 07:21 PM

Is there ONE good reason we won't allow international inspectors to look things over at the camp if things are so hunky-dory?And if the Geneva convention and current internationl law is so vague in regards to these prisoners, why aren't we attempting to clarify the situation with a clearcut procedure(s) for imprisoning and interrogating them?And look, comparisons of Gitmo to Nazi camps or gulags are obviously absurd, but those are the issues people jump on so they can "ignore" that there are legitimate questions as to how useful Gitmo is for the government to keep it so ambiguous when it comes to the "war on terror."<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin" border="0" /> 1979 << On the streets of your town... >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 6-18-05 @ 11:23 PM

LiquidCourage

06-18-2005, 07:50 PM

Part of the reason the Islamic world hates us is because of stuff like this.  We're just compounding the problem.

A.J.

06-18-2005, 09:24 PM

We're just compounding the problem. No pun intended.And the Islamic world will hate us no matter WHAT we do -- simply because we support Israel.

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Yerdaddy

06-19-2005, 01:01 AM

quote:  quote: We're just compounding the problem.  No pun intended.And the Islamic world will hate us no matter WHAT we do -- simply because we support Israel.<img src="http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Canofsoup15/Sigs/AJinDC-Sig.jpg" border="0" /> A Skidmark/canofsoup15 production.Red Sox Nation AJ - master pun-catchter and Simpsons referencer. (By the way I found a DVD here in Sana'a with the monkey knife fight episode. This place rocks!)But the idea that "they just hate us and there's nothing we can do about it" is too much of a simplification. All day long I get "Hellooo! Were are you from? Welcome!" It could be a form of torture because it does get pretty old, (in fact if I was put in charge of Gitmo I'd just have the guards do nothing but "Hellooo! Were are you from? Welcome!" at the prisoners and they'd break in about two days.) But I don't get much hatred here, and in fact I got less in Egypt and Jordan. But, also, any polls of the Middle East, and there are tons, show a differentiation between the American public and its people. And, if you could come and talk to these people, generally they're much more astute on the events and US policies that effect the Middle East. Not so much here in Yemen because literacy is at like 50%, but still you wouldn't describe it as blind hatred. More of an uninformed acceptance of conspiracy theories and glib generalizations. And what could be a better way to bridge the political and cultural divide than a monkey knife fight?

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A.J.

06-19-2005, 06:18 AM

Oh, I know that my response seems like a gross simplification of things.  But basically, or support of Israel, along with the situation in Iraq, are the two most common things that make Muslims angry at the U.S.And yes, I understand this relates to policy, not people.  I walk this tightrope on a daily basis here.  And even though I'm an American, I've been welcomed warmly here -- particularly at the souks where my cash is much loved.If only nations resorted to monkey knife fights, not war or terrorism, to solve their differences...

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Yerdaddy

06-19-2005, 09:13 AM

And yes, I understand this relates to policy, not people.  I walk this tightrope on a daily basis here.  And even though I'm an American, I've been welcomed warmly here -- particularly at the souks where my cash is much loved.Are you mocking me? Are you saying I'm redundant - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over - that I say the same things over and over? Furious George is going to make your Mr Peepers real ugly.

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Knowledged_one

06-20-2005, 11:33 AM

I find it strange that people are more willing to accept the words of these detainees then that of our own countrymen on the events that occur

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TheMojoPin

06-20-2005, 11:55 AM

Uhm, these reports are coming from other Americans.

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high fly

06-20-2005, 04:14 PM

Kinda hard to "turn" prisoners and get-em to work for us, infiltrating the bad guys when you're chaining them to concrete, nude, in their own shit.It's also hard to get other countries to help out on, say, North Korea, when they see you violating treaties like the U.N. Convention on Torture and Mistreatment of Prisoners. It's also a mistake to believe that everyone we have locked up down there is a terrorist.Out of over 700 we've held there, around 200 have been turned loose on Tazz's streets. Those of us who have been paying attention can recall when several British and several Australians and several French citizens were released from there in their own government's custody, they were, as Tazz says, "turned loose."They were not all captured on the battlefield; that cliche is around to mark out for the rest of us who the rubes are who don't know anything other than what Rush and Sean and O'Reilly say. A lot of them were handed over to us by corrupt Afghan warlords after we offered rewards for al Qaeda terrorists. So, being human and all, they did what most humans would do, they settled personal grudges by ratting out "terrorists."  

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high fly

06-20-2005, 04:47 PM

"Treat the captured soldiers well in order to nurture them [for our own use]. This is referred to as 'conquering the enemy and growing stronger.'""Provide for the captured soldiers and treat them well. This is called increasing our own strength in the process of defeating the army"---two translations of Sun Tzu. "In New York, Washington had wept while watching through a spyglass as the British massacred Americans who had surrendered. But Washington, Fischer writes, "often reminded his men that they were an army of liberty and freedom, and that the rights of humanity for which they were fighting should extend even to their enemies." To the American officer in charge of 221 prisoners taken at Princeton, Washington said, "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren.""---from "Our Greatest Christmas," by George Will, Washington Post, Dec. 25, 2004 "In small wars, tolerance, sympathy and kindness should be the keynote to our relationship with the mass of the population.....[Small wars should be conducted] "with a minimum loss of life and property and by methods that leave no aftermath of bitterness or render the return to peace unnecessarily difficult."----USMC Small Wars Manual, containing lessons learned by men who had successfully defeated insurgencies."We did take prisoner any men we thought might be dangerous or possess useful information. Just being in civilian robes did not earn them a free pass, but they were not brutalized. [Lt. Col, commander of 3/7 Marines] McCoy had written and distributed to his officers and staff NCOs before the war a printed list entitled, "Expectations of Combat Leaders," in which one element stated, "Treat prisoners with dignity but do not trust them and be forceful and firm. Do not abuse prisoners, it is cowardly." In all, those of us on the front line treated them better than they had expected, and in accordance with the Geneva Convention. What happened to some prisoners later in some of the prisons, such as the infamous Abu Ghraib, startled us all. Torturing prisoners is dishonorable, no matter who does it, and it usually gains nothing of value, because a prisoner being tortured will say anything to stop the pain."----from SHOOTER, The Autobiography of the Top-Ranked Marine Sniper, by Gunnery Sergeant Jack Coughlin, USMC, and Captain Casey Kuhlman, USMCR, with Donald Davis.    

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