Tragic Mistake in London Terrorist Battle [Archive]

Recyclerz

07-23-2005, 09:42 PM

Well, it looks like an(other) innocent person was killed in London.<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4711639.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4711639.stm</a>Given the recent events in London, the cops have to be given the benefit of the doubt in this case (unless the investigation turns up some real malfeasance) and the blame for this poor bastard's death belongs squarely on the terrorists setting off the bombs in the first place.Still, this tragic incident shows the potential danger of giving into the witchhunt mentality and just going after (especially with deadly force) anybody who looks subjectively shady.  Since "Superstar" was mentioned on both R&F and O&A this week I'll use his epistemological template to break down my feelings in this matter:A little racial profiling and willingness of the public to allow the police to invade their personal space in public places = GoodWidespread demonization of large parts of humanity because they look/talk/smell differently than us = No Good!Let's try to ensure that in fighting the beast we don't become one.

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HBox

07-23-2005, 09:45 PM

<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8655541/" target="_blank">If this is true, it is unacceptable even considering the circumstances:</a>Police expressed regret for the death of the man at the Stockwell
subway station, identified Saturday as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27.
Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes
police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot
him about five times in the head and torso. 
<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8655541/" target="_blank"></a>

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mothershucker

07-23-2005, 09:59 PM

Oops-a-daisy!

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PapaBear

07-23-2005, 10:02 PM

Here's a tip... when the police are oviously in a hightened state of allert, DON'T RUN AWAY FROM THE COPS!!! 

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ChickenHawk

07-23-2005, 10:03 PM

pinned him to the ground and shot him about five times in the head and torso
I guess that's better than 41.

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sr71blackbird

07-24-2005, 03:51 AM

You know, they are about to start checking bags on our trains too, and while I havent yet been asked to open my bag, I will certianly do so and be very cooperative.  But I am very sure that there will be some that are asked who will give the cops a hard time and I am pretty sure some will escalate things and accidents/injurys may result.  This guy shouldnt have run.  Im not saying he deserved it, but come on! Be cooperative to the fucking cops, man!

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Bulldogcakes

07-24-2005, 05:11 AM

You could say "Why was he running from the cops?" Maybe he had a
dime bag of pot on him, and if he was found with it he'd be thrown in
jail. Maybe back in his country, cops are worse than criminals. Maybe alot of things. And if the Police let a guy wearing
a Parka in the middle of summer in the train station without checking
him, they'd be nuts. Very tough situation. 

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This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 7-24-05 @ 9:15 AM

Bulldogcakes

07-24-2005, 05:14 AM

Story (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050724/ap_on_re_eu/britain_bombings)  quote:
He defended the officers' shooting to kill, saying such action only applied when lives were believed to be at risk.

"I am very aware that minority communities are talking about a shoot
to kill policy; it's only a shoot to kill in order to protect policy,"
he said.

British police had drawn from the experience of other countries that have had to deal with suicide attackers, he said.

"It is drawn from experience from other countries, including Sri
Lanka. The only way to deal with this is to shoot to the head," Blair
said. "There is no point in shooting at someone's chest because that is
where the bomb is likely to be," Blair said.

Blair spoke of the problem his officers faced.

"What we have got to recognize is that people are taking incredibly
difficult fast-time decisions in life threatening situations," he said.
"... What's most important to recognize is that it's still happening
out there. There are still officers out there having to make those
calls as we speak."

Police said Menezes attracted police attention because he left a
building that was under surveillance after Thursday's attacks. They
said he was then followed by surveillance officers to the station, and
that his clothing and his behavior at the station added to their
suspicions.


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This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 7-24-05 @ 9:16 AM

TheMojoPin

07-24-2005, 06:11 AM

The guy couldn't speak english very well and the police officers were plainclothes, not uniformed.  Unfortunate combination...to him, he just sees a couple guys come after him with guns (something cops in England typically won't do since they don't carry them in the first place most of the time).

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Dirtybird12

07-24-2005, 06:37 AM

and who wears a heavy coat in july?brilliant job by the police. They shoot and ask questions later. It may be the only way we can win the war on terror. 

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Death Metal Moe

07-24-2005, 06:48 AM

quote: quote: pinned him to the ground and shot him about five times in the head and torso I guess that's better than 41. <img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=ChickenHawk" border="0" /> HORDE KING FOREVER!!! ORACLE NEVER!!! <strike>Shock</strike> EMFA<img height="300" src="http://www.showbizireland.com/images/stars/springsteen-gig4.jpg" width="300" border="0" />"But now I can't capitalize on another tragedy...WOAH WOAH WOAH!!!!" 

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Bulldogcakes

07-24-2005, 06:50 AM

quote:and who wears a heavy coat in july?brilliant job by the police. They shoot and ask questions later. It may be the only way we can win the war on terror. 

<a href="http://www.live365.com/stations/ufo_radio?play/"></a> So you support the Death Penalty for bad fashion? Execution style, no less. No trial, nothing.  And
I think if my brother/son/father was shot by cops for no reason, I'd be
MORE likely to become a terrorist, which means for every one you shoot
you create many others. How do you win your little war that way? The
fact is you will ALWAYS have terrorists of some sort. This war is not
winnable, any more than a war on crime is. You just have to deal with
situations as they arise. 
 

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Do Siamese twins have to file seperate tax returns? Or do they file jointly?

torker

07-24-2005, 07:20 AM

Here's a tip... when the police are oviously in a hightened state of allert, DON'T RUN AWAY FROM THE COPS!!!   <img src="http://www.geocities.com/pauleight/pb_sig.gif" border="0" />  [/QUOTE]  Always listen to PapaBear on these matters.  Solid advice. It might be time to arm the bobbies.<img height="242" src="http://www.herts-police-authority.org.uk/images/general/specials-portrait.jpg" width="160" border="0" />

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Death Metal Moe

07-24-2005, 07:24 AM

Execution style, no less. No trial, nothing.Nice Unhallowed song refrence Bulldogcakes!

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Death Metal Moe

07-24-2005, 07:26 AM

quote: and who wears a heavy coat in july? <a href="http://www.live365.com/stations/ufo_radio?play/"><img src="http://www.thecosmiccircus.com/sigpics/returnssig.jpg" border="0" /></a> <img height="295" src="http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u23/automat42/upload/37024583.WaitingfortheBrooklynFerry.jpg" width="400" border="0" /> 

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Death Metal Moe

07-24-2005, 07:28 AM

It might be time to arm the bobbies.<img height="261" src="http://myspace-523.vo.llnwd.net/00164/32/57/164987523_l.jpg" width="350" border="0" />"REPECT MY AHTORITAAAAA!!!!!"

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HBox

07-24-2005, 08:31 AM

The thought of a suicide bomber has me
reconsidering their actions a litte, but still, if you have a guy
pinned down and subdued, all you're doing is performing an execution.
If the article I posted was correct, this wasn't an instance where the
guy looked suspicious and ran and police gunned him down because they
thought he was a suicide bomber. They ran him down, subdued him, and
then shot him to death. 

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SatCam

07-24-2005, 11:23 AM

The guy couldn't speak english very well and the police officers were plainclothes, not uniformed.Maybe he spoke american?

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Heavy

07-24-2005, 07:59 PM

The guy couldn't speak english very well Reason enough.

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TheMojoPin

07-24-2005, 09:04 PM

It's obvious the cops were in an awful situation with the environment in London these days, but the details make them look worse and worse...it would have been one thing if they shot this guy from some kind of distance.  Y'know, they thought he had a bomb, couldn't get to him in time, so they took the shot(s).  But now they're saying the had him down, subdued, AND HIS HANDS PINNED.  Now yes, the tech exists to have voice operated bombs, or detonation sensors elsewhere on the body, but the overwhelming majority of suicide strikes are done with remote detonation or standard manual sensors...both of which require a free hand, which this guy didn't have.  And given that the bombs in London have been pretty basic (and in the second strike, not working at all), it seems almost impossible someone would have anything besides a hand-detonated explosive.  So the guy's down, knocked around, pinned, and THEN he's shot 5 times in the head?Ugh.Not condemning anyone...it's just a terrible thing that happend.

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Alice S. Fuzzybutt

07-24-2005, 09:53 PM

quote: quote: It might be time to arm the bobbies.  <img height="261" src="http://myspace-523.vo.llnwd.net/00164/32/57/164987523_l.jpg" width="350" border="0" />"REPECT MY AHTORITAAAAA!!!!!"<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=njdmmoe" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.unhallowed.com/">www.unhallowed.com</a> <a href="http://thebigsexxxy.blogspot.com/">One Big SeXXXy Blog</a> That's just a little creepy. Edit: anyone who posts that picture with that much arm pit hair deservesa razzing. Even for the facial expression alone. <img src="http://home.comcast.net/~stan_ferguson/alicesig.jpg" border="0" /> "We sound just like Cheap Trick only the guitars are louder," - Kurt Cobain "I prefer to listen to Cheap Trick." -Homer Simpson

This message was edited by Alice S. Fuzzybutt on 7-25-05 @ 1:55 AM

Dirtybird12

07-25-2005, 04:57 AM

quote: This war is not winnable, any more than a war on crime is. You just have to deal with situations as they arise.  and modifiying this guy's skull after leading police on a chase into a crowded subway IS dealing with situations as they arise.I'd rather (in this case)  shoot and ask questions later.  It could save lives.

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JimBeam

07-25-2005, 08:44 AM

The reason they shot him while he was pinned, which sounds like an awful thing, was to prevent him from detonating anything.A great line by the Chief Of Police for London, or some such guy, was, and I paraphrase because I read it yesterday, " These men are asked to make split second decisions that have life long consequences. "I think that sums up any law enforcement/military person's job.Whats probably not known is how often this happens.With the threat of IRA/Loyalist bombers I'm sure this occurs more than gets publicized.I mean there were a lot o things making the situation tense.He just happened to come out of a building they were staking out, he just happened to be dressed " strangely ", he just happened to be fleeing from them and he just happened to make some piss poor decisions.

I have balls !!!

TheMojoPin

08-18-2005, 05:26 AM

This is looking worse and worse...from the BBC:<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4157892.stm" target="_blank">Leaked documents appear to contradict the official account of how police mistook a Brazilian man for a suicide bomber and shot him.</a><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4157892.stm" target="_blank">The documents, including witness statements, also suggest Mr de Menezes did not hurdle the barrier at Stockwell tube station and was not wearing a padded jacket that could have concealed a bomb, as eyewitness reports previously suggested.</a>

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TheMojoPin

08-18-2005, 05:28 AM

On top of that...<a href="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/replytotopic.cfm/Forum/87/Topic/45938/currentpage/Britain's%20top%20police%20officer,%20the%20Scotla nd%20Yard%20commissioner%20Sir%20Ian%20Blair,%20at tempted%20to%20stop%20an%20independent%20external% 20investigation%20into%20the%20shooting%20of%20a%2 0young%20Brazilian%20mistaken%20for%20a%20suicide% 20bomber,%20it%20emerged%20yesterday." target="_blank">Britain's top police officer, the Scotland Yard commissioner Sir Ian Blair, attempted to stop an independent external investigation into the shooting of a young Brazilian mistaken for a suicide bomber, it emerged yesterday.</a>

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angrymissy

08-18-2005, 06:32 AM

Apparantley he had a jean jacket on, not a parka, and an officer had his arms pinned behind him.  That's when they started shooting him.

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Doctor Manhattan

08-18-2005, 06:42 AM

So was he shot just because they thought he was Muslim?

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TheMojoPin

08-18-2005, 06:51 AM

quote: Apparantley he had a jean jacket on, not a parka, and an officer had his arms pinned behind him.  That's when they started shooting him. <img src="http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/angrymissy/newsig.gif" border="0" /> "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." [ Theodore Roosevelt ] 8 times.Point blank.In the head.The guy is down and caught, unable to move his arms or use his hands.  Why the blatant and brutal execution?  Something is terribly wrong here.

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Bulldogcakes

08-18-2005, 12:52 PM

Ugh, I dont want to defend them, but they said at the time that they
were following a foriegn police model  (Bangladesh?) For dealing
with suicide bombers. Where you have to shoot to kill instantly so they
cant detonate the device. I'd like to hear more from the police, but
they may not want to give away info the bad guys can use. Just an awful
situation. And the info we have leads you to believe its an obvious
over reaction. But again, I'd like more info from the police side. 

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TheMojoPin

08-18-2005, 03:48 PM

For dealing with suicide bombers. Where you have to shoot to kill instantly so they cant detonate the device.Very true, and makes perfect sense...but really only if they had had to shoot the guy from a distance.  The troubling aspect of this is they had him down, subdued, his arms and legs pinned and his hands against the ground.  No detonator in hand, and no way to activate a detonator on his person.  To have him clearly caught and disabled and THEN you shoot him 8 times in the head makes no sense.  If they thought he had a bomb he could detonate so easily, why tackle him in the first place, giving him more of a chance and more time to set it off?

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