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HBox

11-01-2005, 04:01 PM

<a target="_blank" href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9886959/">The Democrats moved the Senate into a secret session today to voice displeasure with pre-war intelligence.</a>Was this a righteous expression of anger, a publicity stunt, or both?I
say both. They obviously didn't like the way the subject was changed
yesterday with the Supreme Court nomination, but Republican leadership
in Congress has been stopping any kind of investigation, even the ones
they'd promised to do. So I think there was another motive behind this,
but what they did was right, especially since they apparently got
results. 
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9886959/"></a>

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This message was edited by HBox on 11-1-05 @ 8:17 PM

bobrobot

11-01-2005, 04:15 PM

I'm all for it, this country is fucked right now and it's leadership is shameful! They are attacking when the enemy is weak.

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Bulldogcakes

11-01-2005, 04:17 PM

I already posted this, but if you want to make it a seperate discussion thats fine by me.   
 <a target="blank" href="http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051101/D8DJU0K80.html">This struck some of us a hissy fit</a> 
 
 
A cheap ploy just to gum up the works and throw a fake bargaining chip on the table. Nobody's buying it.

That was my take.  

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FUNKMAN

11-01-2005, 04:35 PM

regardless of whether you're pro-bush or anti-bush you would have to agree that IF the president sent our troops to WAR knowing that the reasons he used to justify entering the war were 'fabricated', then there is nothing WORSE in my mind that a president can do. then you have to find out what was his motives were. to this day you will never convince me that his main motive was that he cared about the iraqi people.now what if we find out the information was 'fabricated' but the president was not aware of it. what about the 30,000 innocent iraqis and 2200 US Soldiers killed 'so far' and the tens of thousands soldiers injured? how do you repay everyone? 

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HBox

11-01-2005, 04:48 PM

quote:I already posted this, but if you want to make it a seperate discussion thats fine by me. That
threads being derailed in ten different directions. I didn't want
to continue to contribute to it.Besides, that was a cunning way to change the subject to avoid my point.<img border="0" src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/wink.gif" />[/size]

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This message was edited by HBox on 11-1-05 @ 8:48 PM

HBox

11-01-2005, 04:53 PM

[color=navy]Now that I'm thinking about it, could this be a way
to get advance cover incase the Republicans decide to use the nuclear
option? This way, now that they have Republicans on record pissed and
moaning about Democrats trampling over Senate customs, they'd look like
complete hypocrits trying to criticize Democrats doing the same thing.
Of course, that does work the other way around. I'm probably just
thinking too much into this. 

<img border="0" src="http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7449/georgesig0mm.jpg" />

This message was edited by HBox on 11-1-05 @ 8:53 PM

HBox

11-01-2005, 06:12 PM

<img width="384" height="273" border="0" src="http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/051101/051101_reid_hmed_3p.hmedium.jpg" />All hail Prophet Harry Reid. 

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spoon

11-01-2005, 08:24 PM

Needed to be done, yesterday.

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A.J.

11-01-2005, 11:46 PM

So they will continue to get paid to do nothing.

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Bulldogcakes

11-02-2005, 03:53 PM

What makes this such a joke to me is that Rove wasnt even indicted.
If he was, then you could make the case that Rove and Libby were
covering thier tracks, knew the intelligence was bogus, and all the
other unproven charges the far left has been raising about the Bush
pre-war strategy. But he wasn't. Even Libby wasn't charged with outing
a covert operative, or anything else Fitzgerald was charged with
uncovering.  All Libbt got was a (fairly dubious and difficult to
prove) perjury charge. Nothing was even alleged relating to pre war
coverup. Bogus stunt, designed to push the confirmation process to next year. Besides, that was a cunning way to change the subject to avoid my point.<img border="0" src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/wink.gif" />  Actually, that was just my way of pouting that you didn't really read one of my posts! Harumph!

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HBox

11-02-2005, 04:15 PM

What makes this such a joke
to me is that Rove wasnt even indicted. If he was, then you could make
the case that Rove and Libby were covering thier tracks, knew the
intelligence was bogus, and all the other unproven charges the far left
has been raising about the Bush pre-war strategy. But he wasn't. Even
Libby wasn't charged with outing a covert operative, or anything else
Fitzgerald was charged with uncovering.  All Libbt got was a (fairly
dubious and difficult to prove) perjury charge. Nothing was even
alleged relating to pre war coverup.Did
you watch Fitzgerald's new conference? First of all, Rove is still
under investigation and there are reports that he still thinks he's
going to be indicted. Second, there were 2 perjury charges, 2 charges
of making false statements, and one of obstruction of justice.
Secondly, one of the reason Libby wasn't indicted for the leak is
Fitzgerald's reluctance to use the Espionage Act in a case like this.
There are all sorts of little qualifications that Plame didn't meet
such as not working overseas in like 5 years. That doesn't mean this
leak was any less serious, if you watched this week's 60 Minutes with
the pissed off CIA operatives who explained what kind of damage the
leak could have done. No one knows what kind of damage HAS been done
because there hasn't been a formal damage assessment yet, and anyone
who says anything different is desperately spinning. The biggest point
is that since Fitzgerald caught them in the middle of a cover up it
might be more difficult to prosecute for the original crime.They
aren't going to push the confirmation into next year, at least not
because of yesterday. The Senate was reopened in two hours, and I think
the MAIN point of it was to get Pat Roberts off his ass and to continue
the intelligence investigation, the one he said last year that he
wanted to wait until after the Presidential Election to finish and did
absolutely nothing on all year long. 


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Bulldogcakes

11-02-2005, 04:39 PM

quote: Did
you watch Fitzgerald's new conference? First of all, Rove is still
under investigation and there are reports that he still thinks he's
going to be indicted. Second, there were 2 perjury charges, 2 charges
of making false statements, and one of obstruction of justice.Most
observers say the "still under investigation" stuff is S.O.P. and if he
hasn't come up with anything in the past 2 years, he likely never will.
Plus, he's dying to get back to Chicago. Considering what he was asked
to investigate, what he came back with was very little. 
Secondly, one of the reason Libby wasn't indicted for the leak is
Fitzgerald's reluctance to use the Espionage Act in a case like this.
There are all sorts of little qualifications that Plame didn't meet
such as not working overseas in like 5 years. If
he thought he could get a charge past a judge, he would have. The act
itself was not drafted for these kinds of situations, and there's
specific language in the act to clarify that. The fact he didn't even
attempt an indictment tells me he had nothing. 


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HBox

11-02-2005, 05:40 PM

If he thought he could get a charge past a judge, he would have. 
If he thought he could get a conviction, he
would have. This guy definitely doesn't strike me as looking for
publicity. And if he wants to go back to Chicago so much, why didn't he
just close up the investigation?And,
you don't think the fact that Rove and Libby were lying to the Grand
Jury left and right aren't signs of a cover up, and THAT might be a big
reason why he doesn't have enough to convict on the leak?

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Bulldogcakes

11-02-2005, 06:25 PM

quote: If he thought he could get a conviction, he
would have. This guy definitely doesn't strike me as looking for
publicity. And if he wants to go back to Chicago so much, why didn't he
just close up the investigation?And,
you don't think the fact that Rove and Libby were lying to the Grand
Jury left and right aren't signs of a cover up, and THAT might be a big
reason why he doesn't have enough to convict on the leak?

He's said himself he's anxious to get back home.  Libby's
the only one accused of lying to a grand jury. And you're starting with
an assumption (Bush lied to get us into war) which has never been
established by anyone, including Fitzgerald. And lack of evidence is
proof of nothing, especially in a court of law. The right wing
talk shows have been playing clips (ad nauseum) of all of the people
who were convinced Saddam had WMD's, including Bill Clinton, John
Kerry, Al Gore, Hillary, The French Foreign Minister (Villipand?) etc,
etc. All of the clips are from before Bush was elected. 


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My site Bully Baby (http://bulldogcakes.tripod.com/index.html)

"A dog recently saved his owner's life, because he had been trained to dial 911. Unfortunately, operators had trouble finding the address 'woof, woof.'"-Norm MacDonald

billyio

11-02-2005, 06:43 PM

So much for nothing.It would be so much better for the Senate to be discussing a pullout of troops rather than debating something we all have known for years.

See Ya!

HBox

11-02-2005, 06:44 PM

Libby's the only one
accused of lying to a grand jury. And you're starting with an
assumption (Bush lied to get us into war) which has never been
established by anyone, including Fitzgerald. And lack of evidence is
proof of nothing, especially in a court of law.No,
I'm starting from the assumption that these two were responsible for
the leak, and then lied to cover their asses. 

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spoon

11-02-2005, 06:59 PM

I find it amusing that I never agree with BDC on anything.  We really should hate each other.  I know I do.  

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Se7en

11-03-2005, 07:02 AM

quote:  Did you watch Fitzgerald's new conference? First of all, Rove is still under investigation and there are reports that he still thinks he's going to be indicted.   I'll say this now, you're a goddamned FOOL if you think anything is going to happen to Rove.Rove is in the clear.  If he was EVER going to be indicted, it would have been last week.  I'm sorry - but your side had its chance to get him, and it didn't work.  The moment has passed.  Now all that the Democrats can do is shake their fist and make pointless demands that Bush replace his staff (i.e. replace Rove).As it is with Libby, not all of those charges are going to hold up.  And the ones that do survive, the matter won't go to trial.As for this little hissy fit by the Dems, they really don't want to go down this road.  It bears no fruit for them.

spoon

11-03-2005, 06:41 PM

quote: quote:  Did you watch Fitzgerald's new conference? First of all, Rove is still under investigation and there are reports that he still thinks he's going to be indicted.   I'll say this now, you're a goddamned FOOL if you think anything is going to happen to Rove.Rove is in the clear.  If he was EVER going to be indicted, it would have been last week.  I'm sorry - but your side had its chance to get him, and it didn't work.  The moment has passed.  Now all that the Democrats can do is shake their fist and make pointless demands that Bush replace his staff (i.e. replace Rove).As it is with Libby, not all of those charges are going to hold up.  And the ones that do survive, the matter won't go to trial.As for this little hissy fit by the Dems, they really don't want to go down this road.  It bears no fruit for them.Our side?  I like good people in office and my side is the side that best represents the ture interest of the US people without having a horrible effect on world politics.  I guess you'll follow blindly anyone with the republican moniker.  Do you truly think they are all innocent?  That these lies are just small crimes?  Are you totally brainwashed?  This war and these people are not good for this country and 99% of it's people.  They have not one care in the world for the middle class and down.  Their true goal is to profit while in power, which is why we almost always ceate a conflict under a Republican that lasts at least as long as their terms.  At least during my life.  The good old military industrial complex makes for good cash when you direct the funds to friends and family.  Now they've discovered how to do it with disasters as well, not good.  These people are tearing down the gov from the inside while spending worse than any liberal dem in history.  The next admin will take it's whole term, if not two, cleaning up the biggest mess this country has been in during my life.  And you make it sound like your football team missed it's chance to score.  Too bad we technically play for the same team, only you think the owner really gives a shit about you but in reality only cares about making profits.  Our side?  I like good people in office and my side is the side that best represents the ture interest of the US people without having a horrible effect on world politics.  I guess you'll follow blindly anyone with the republican moniker.  Do you truly think they are all innocent?  That these lies are just small crimes?  Are you totally brainwashed?  This war and these people are not good for this country and 99% of it's people.  They have not one care in the world for the middle class and down.  Their true goal is to profit while in power, which is why we almost always ceate a conflict under a Republican that lasts at least as long as their terms.  At least during my life.  The good old military industrial complex makes for good cash when you direct the funds to friends and family.  Now they've discovered how to do it with disasters as well, not good.  These people are tearing down the gov from the inside while spending worse than any liberal dem in history.  The next admin will take it's whole term, if not two, cleaning up the biggest mess this country has been in during my life.  And you make it sound like your football team missed it's chance to score.  Too bad we technically play for the same team, only you think the owner really gives a shit about you but in r