DEATH PENALTY [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

Dirtybird12

12-12-2005, 08:58 AM

In circumstances where guilt is 100% proven, are you pro-death penalty or against it?

torker

12-12-2005, 09:06 AM

I'd go as low as like 80 to 85%.  <img height="50" src="http://empty-dreams.net/flinx/images/mrjingles.gif" width="50" border="0" />

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HBox

12-12-2005, 09:43 AM

Only when keeping someone alive is a serious risk to the public. And I mean SERIOUS. So I'm talking like terrorists, and not much else. 

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Yerdaddy

12-12-2005, 10:01 AM

In circumstances where guilt is 100% provenVery very rarely can this be assumed. Against.

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Fuck it from behind.

silera

12-12-2005, 11:14 AM

Life in prison is worse than death.

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curtoid

12-12-2005, 11:39 AM

In the United States, when the Death Certificate is filled out after an excecution, the cause of death is always listed as "murdered."BTW - here are all the countries where capital punishment is still legal:<table class="multicolumn" border="0"><tr class="multicolumn" valign="top"><td class="column"><ul><li>Afghanistan </li><li>Antigua and Barbuda </li><li>Bahamas </li><li>Bahrain </li><li>Bangladesh </li><li>Barbados </li><li>Belarus </li><li>Belize </li><li>Botswana </li><li>Burundi </li><li>Cameroon </li><li>Chad </li><li>China (People's Republic) </li><li>Comoros </li><li>Congo (Democratic Republic) </li><li>Cuba </li><li>Dominica </li><li>Egypt </li><li>Equatorial Guinea </li><li>Eritrea </li><li>Ethiopia </li><li>Gabon </li><li>Ghana </li><li>Guatemala </li><li>Guinea </li><li>Guyana </li><li>India </li><li>Indonesia </li><li>Iran </li><li>Iraq </li><li>Jamaica </li><li>Japan </li><li>Jordan </li><li>Kazakhstan </li><li>Korea, North </li><li>Korea, South </li><li>Kuwait </li><li>Kyrgyzstan</li></ul></td><td class="column"><ul><li>Laos </li><li>Lebanon </li><li>Lesotho </li><li>Liberia </li><li>Libya </li><li>Malawi </li><li>Malaysia </li><li>Mongolia </li><li>Nigeria </li><li>Oman </li><li>Pakistan </li><li>Palestinian Authority </li><li>Philippines </li><li>Qatar </li><li>Rwanda </li><li>St. Kitts and Nevis </li><li>St. Lucia </li><li>St. Vincent and the Grenadines </li><li>Saudi Arabia </li><li>Sierra Leone </li><li>Singapore </li><li>Somalia </li><li>Sudan </li><li>Swaziland </li><li>Syria </li><li>Taiwan </li><li>Tajikistan </li><li>Tanzania </li><li>Thailand </li><li>Trinidad and Tobago </li><li>Uganda </li><li>United Arab Emirates </li><li>United States </li><li>Uzbekistan </li><li>Vietnam </li><li>Yemen </li><li>Zambia </li><li>Zimbabwe</li></ul></td></tr></table>Here are countries which HAVE the Death Penalty, but they have not practiced it in over 10 years:<table class="multicolumn" border="0"><tr class="multicolumn" valign="top"><td class="column"><ul><li>Algeria (1993) </li><li>Benin (1987) </li><li>Brunei Darussalam (1957) </li><li>Burkina Faso (1988) </li><li>Central African Republic (1981) </li><li>Congo (Republic) (1982) </li><li>Gambia (1981) </li><li>Grenada (1978) </li><li>Kenya (n.a.) </li><li>Madagascar (1958) </li><li>Maldives (1952) </li><li>Mali (1980)</li></ul></td><td class="column"><ul><li>Mauritania (1987) </li><li>Morocco (1993) </li><li>Myanmar (1993) </li><li>Nauru (1968) </li><li>Niger (1976) </li><li>Papua New Guinea (1950) </li><li>Russia (1999) </li><li>Sri Lanka (1976) </li><li>Suriname (1982) </li><li>Togo (n.a.) </li><li>Tonga (1982) </li><li>Tunisia (1990)</li></ul></td></tr></table>And here are the countries where Death penalty is permitted only for exceptional crimes, such as crimes committed under military law or in wartime.<table class="multicolumn" border="0"><tr class="multicolumn" valign="top"><td class="column"><ul><li>Albania (2000) </li><li>Argentina (1984) </li><li>Bolivia (1997) </li><li>Brazil (1979) </li><li>Chile (2001) </li><li>Cook Islands (n.a.)</li></ul></td><td class="column"><ul><li>El Salvador (1983) </li><li>Fiji (1979) </li><li>Israel (1954) </li><li>Latvia (1999) </li><li>Peru (1979)</li></ul></td></tr></table>FINALLY...the rest of these countries - the Death Penalty has been outlawed since the date next to their name:<table class="multicolumn" border="0"><tr class="multicolumn" valign="top"><td class="column"><ul><li>Andorra (1990) </li><li>Angola (1992) </li><li>Armenia (2003) </li><li>Australia (1984) </li><li>Austria (1950) </li><li>Azerbaijan (1998) </li><li>Belgium (1996) </li><li>Bermuda (1999) </li><li>Bhutan (2004) </li><li>Bosnia-Herzegovina (1997) </li><li>Bulgaria (1998) </li><li>Cambodia (1989) </li><li>Canada (1976) </li><li>Cape Verde (1981) </li><li>Colombia (1910) </li><li>Costa Rica (1877) </li><li>Côte d'Ivoire (2000) </li><li>Croatia (1990) </li><

DarkHippie

12-12-2005, 12:44 PM

Wait, Israel is more progressive on execution than us?

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FUNKMAN

12-12-2005, 12:49 PM

Life in prison is worse than death.just alot more expensive, ALOT!  prison is probably better for some people than their lives on the outside were...

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DJEvelEd

12-12-2005, 12:49 PM

If killing people is wrong, then it should be wrong for everyone. What kind of example do we set when we say it wrong to kill people, then we kill people for killing people?Whether youre a gangster, a judge, a cop, a terrorist....killing is wrong.

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FUNKMAN

12-12-2005, 12:55 PM

like i always say "two wrongs don't make a right" BUT "one wrong don't make a right either"it's not perfect but it's fair

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Dirtybird12

12-12-2005, 12:56 PM

quote: Whether youre a gangster, a judge, a cop, a terrorist....killing is wrong.ya know what...yer right maybe we should just slap Osma Bin Ladin on the wrist instead of killing him....and tell him not to flatten NYC again in the future .  maybe we should let Saddam free, give Iraq back to him and apologize to him for having a blood thirsty hick running this country..THOUSANDS Of people were killed under his orders. And your saying that someone like that has a reason to live?fuck that.     <a href="http://www.thecosmiccircus.com/"><img src="http://www.thecosmiccircus.com/sigpics/wiz.jpg" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.perrynoid.com/" target="blank">Perrynoid</a>

This message was edited by CircusFreak on 12-12-05 @ 5:11 PM

silera

12-12-2005, 12:58 PM

Your reply makes absolutely no sense.

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Dirtybird12

12-12-2005, 01:08 PM

quote: Your reply makes absolutely no sense.Should Osama be put to death or spend life in prison?If you say prison - I can respect your opinion...wait... no I can't.  The man should die a thousand deaths.Same with someone like Saddam,. I was being sarcastic. when I said we should "let them go" - Which is what life in prison is when you compare it to stealing someone elses life. I believe If you kill. You should be killed. 

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ADF

12-12-2005, 01:35 PM

It's impossible to "get even" with someone like Saddam or Osama. 
It's natural to seek revenge, but it's not logical.  Also, killing
them is only going to make them martyrs. 

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IrishAlkey

12-12-2005, 02:16 PM

quote: The man should die a thousand deaths.  A man can't die a thousand deaths.  Facing the consequences of your actions is the highest form of punishment.  That's why Hitler killed himself. A man's freedom is his life.  The solution of killing someone to exact revenge is doing that person a favor and simultaneously degrading yourself in the process.EDIT: ALKEY DID NOT TYPE THIS.  SILERA DID.  ALKEY WOULD HAVE TYPED:In prison you can fuck it from behind.<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/artemisentreri/alkey.gif" border="0" />

This message was edited by IrishAlkey on 12-12-05 @ 6:17 PM

furie

12-12-2005, 02:25 PM

I don't believe in the death penalty. it doesn't work as a deterrent and for the most part, it's not the state's place to enact revenge.<div> </div>

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FUNKMAN

12-12-2005, 02:27 PM

there is a very easy way around the death penalty...don't kill anyone and it will never have to be applied

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Bulldogcakes

12-12-2005, 02:36 PM

quote:Wait, Israel is more progressive on execution than us? Tell
that to the Palestinians. If they suspect you're a terrorist, they dont
even bother giving you a trial. They do routine assasinations of people
they suspect of being involved in terrorism, which is one of many reasons why their record on human rights is abysmal. 
 

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This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 12-12-05 @ 6:54 PM

Bulldogcakes

12-12-2005, 02:51 PM

Here's my convoluted position on the Death PenaltyIts appropriate punishment in many cases.Its within the rights of a society to protect itself against its worst elements and enemies. 
And I'm against it. For the simple reason that society
should not get down to the level of its worst elements. Even if its
completely justifyible. Somebody, somewhere has to play the grown up.
 Also the arguments supporting it dont hold up. It doesn't
give satisfaction to the victim's families in most cases. Nothing will.
It's not a deterrent, except against the guy killing again while in
prison. And if you cant control prisoners, people under lock and key
24/7, then its the Dept of Correction's fault. They're the ones in
charge. And if some criminal knows they are facing the death penalty,
it will only make them more desperate to kill witnesses and avoid
capture. So I'd argue it's actually counter productive.   But when they do kill one of these scumbags, I dont lose any sleep over it, either.  

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zentraed

12-12-2005, 03:23 PM

people don't trust government to spend their tax dollars wisely, but they think they can get murder right?13
people out of about 170 on death row in Illionois were found to be
wrongly convicted. There is no demonstrable benefit to having the death
penalty and it is not cheaper than life imprisonment. Look up the
numbers; it is considerably more expensive to house our death row
inmates and there are a lot more court costs as well.It takes a
Supreme Court decision to protect the mentally retarded from being
murdered by their government. How bloodthirsty of a nation are we? 


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FUNKMAN

12-12-2005, 03:34 PM

Hypotheticalcan you compare the death penalty to a war. whereas you are battling the criminals. there are going to be some casualties "where innocent people are killed"  in both?and, how do we know it is not a deterrent? do they survey people who will openly admit they were gonna kill someone but the death penalty scared them out of it...just looking for discussion man...

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Heather 8

12-12-2005, 03:40 PM

quote: quote:Life in prison is worse than death. just alot more expensive, ALOT! 
Unless you start taking into account money spent on years (even decades) of appeals. I've
always been for the death penalty, but in recent years I've found
myself not quite as gung-ho for it as I used to be.   

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zentraed

12-12-2005, 04:46 PM

quote:

Hypothetical
can
you compare the death penalty to a war. whereas you are battling the
criminals. there are going to be some casualties "where innocent people
are killed" in both?
and,
how do we know it is not a deterrent? do they survey people who will
openly admit they were gonna kill someone but the death penalty scared
them out of it...

 
War is usually predicated upon a social benefit/need and in a free
society, is usually regarded as a last resort. The death penalty isn't
a standoff with an armed suspect, or dropping a smart bomb on a
compound. It's taking someone in custody and voluntarily killing them.
If killing that one person were going to save 100 lives, there wouldn't
be a debate.
We measure the deterrent effect of the death penalty through
comparative study. Take two similarly sized states, one with the death
penalty and one without; compare their crime rates. Take a bunch of
countries and compare them. There was an article in Skeptical Enquirer
about a year ago looking at all 50 states and here is a graph of murder
rate vs. number of executions for 2000:
<img width="450" height="270" border="0" src="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/SE0407-03.jpg" /> 
<a href="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=1176">Capital Punishment and Homicide: Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions</a>

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Mike Teacher

12-12-2005, 05:14 PM

There was an article in Skeptical Enquirer about a year ago looking at all 50 states and here is a graph of murder rate vs. number of executions for 2000:=Holy shit you're the other person who reads the Skeptical Enquirer? Seems that way, sometimes; considering all the bullshit around. Now, come to think of it, Penn and Teller and The Amazing Randi of 'Bullshit' have been involved with the magazine, and CSICOP stuff.Not only do I remember the mag, I remember reading that article, the Flatland references, and showing how differently data can be made to look depending on who/what you use to analyze it/do regression analyses.Bringing up 'Freakonomics' for the bazillionth time on this site, that author views the crime thing from an absolute perspective, rather then rates, arguing [very controversially] that the main reason crime/murder rates have fallen is due to the shrinking pool of prospective criminals due to the legalazton of abortion.How that for a polemic thesis? Thats what Steve Leavitt argues in the book. And even that book admits the difficulties in trying to do any kind of regression anaylsis, to lock two single variables together amid an ocean of variables,much less get a linear/functional result.

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furie

12-12-2005, 05:31 PM

quote:

quote:

Hypothetical
can
you compare the death penalty to a war. whereas you are battling the
criminals. there are going to be some casualties "where innocent people
are killed" in both?
and,
how do we know it is not a deterrent? do they survey people who will
openly admit they were gonna kill someone but the death penalty scared
them out of it...

 
War is usually predicated upon a social benefit/need and in a free
society, is usually regarded as a last resort. The death penalty isn't
a standoff with an armed suspect, or dropping a smart bomb on a
compound. It's taking someone in custody and voluntarily killing them.
If killing that one person were going to save 100 lives, there wouldn't
be a debate.
We measure the deterrent effect of the death penalty through
comparative study. Take two similarly sized states, one with the death
penalty and one without; compare their crime rates. Take a bunch of
countries and compare them. There was an article in Skeptical Enquirer
about a year ago looking at all 50 states and here is a graph of murder
rate vs. number of executions for 2000:
<img width="450" height="270" border="0" src="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/SE0407-03.jpg" /> 
<a href="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=1176">Capital Punishment and Homicide: Sociological Realities and Econometric Illusions</a>

<img src="http://web.newsguy.com/zentraed/ronfez/RonFezSig.jpg" border="0" />
 Putting numbers to your life i think this graph is more telling.*> *><a href="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/SE0407-01.jpg">*> statisticly there's no diffrence in the murder rates even though the states have radically diffrent practices when it comes to execution.

</a><a href="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/SE0407-01.jpg">
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This message was edited by furie on 12-12-05 @ 9:32 PM

TheMojoPin

12-12-2005, 06:13 PM

How often can anyone be 100% sure that the person being executed is actually guilty?Unless that is possible every single time a government executes one of its own citizens, then the idea of a state having that option is terrifying.At this point the death penalty only serves as an ugly excuse to not re-evaluate and reform our ruined prison system.

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Death Metal Moe

12-12-2005, 06:18 PM

KILL KILL KILL

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PapaBear

12-12-2005, 06:19 PM

I don't think I've ever seen a poll on here, about a real social topic, be exactly 50/50 after 24 votes.

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FUNKMAN

12-12-2005, 06:20 PM

quote: How often can anyone be 100% sure that the person being executed is actually guilty?  if they're caught on videotape. if there are several witnesses such as the black man on the train who shot and killed several people while witnesses looked on. a person who is caught with the identification of 6 murdered woman in his car along with the weapon that was used.edit: the problem with the system is these people should be executed immediately and it will save cost.  <img src="http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UQCRAl4WyHLYmr7dmRaNq9LkFDSutySVXtZT!2DBFo9cdLLOy T0wW*F93FRtcPlf*xMPhVXRGqhe6SJySdgLcTKyu!jrvKbU!du NFBLOnRJxEbhL0qxR9qln3GX9xzMO/FUNKMAN.JPG?dc=4675521713262985004" border="0" />

This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 12-12-05 @ 10:25 PM

Death Metal Moe

12-12-2005, 06:22 PM

How often can anyone be 100% sure that the person being executed is actually guilty?I know he's not getting executed, but...<img height="335" src="http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Simpson/ojsimpson.jpg" width="280" border="0" />

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TheMojoPin

12-12-2005, 06:27 PM

That's 3 examples.You're honestly saying the majority of people put to death have been 100% guilty, without a single shadow of a doubt?Since the system has already been proven to have killed innocent people multiple times, I can't think of a stronger argument AGAINST such a system.Again, why not focus on trying to make our prisons WORK?  All the thinking is on revenge and vengeance and "forget 'em after sentencing justice."  Shouldn't reform and rehabilitation be the ultimate goal?Obviously, there are plenty of people that should be in jail away from the public for the rest of their lives.  But it seems that mentality has shifted to cover the bulk of people convicted of a crime...ANY crime.  If you've served time, you're useless.  What's accomplished?  Why both setting anyone free?And look, if we're really gonna flog this "Christian nation" bullshit, a continuing death penalty is a sick joke at best.  Make up your friggin' minds.

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mdr55

12-12-2005, 06:30 PM

OJ's innocent. We all know he's looking for Nicole's killers on the golf course. And we all know how difficult sand traps are. 

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FUNKMAN

12-12-2005, 06:38 PM

quote: That's 3 examples.You're honestly saying the majority of people put to death have been 100% guilty, without a single shadow of a doubt?  so you are not saying they are bad examples, do you agree with these circumstances they should be killed?i believe there are situations that there is absolute certainty that the person is guilty and that person should be executed immediately. it was a joke to allow the Ferguson/Train guy to defend himself in court when there were many witnesses to his crime. <img src="http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UQCRAl4WyHLYmr7dmRaNq9LkFDSutySVXtZT!2DBFo9cdLLOy T0wW*F93FRtcPlf*xMPhVXRGqhe6SJySdgLcTKyu!jrvKbU!du NFBLOnRJxEbhL0qxR9qln3GX9xzMO/FUNKMAN.JPG?dc=4675521713262985004" border="0" />

This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 12-13-05 @ 8:16 AM

TheMojoPin

12-12-2005, 06:43 PM

So now we're talking like we should bypass the justice system just because someone commits a crime in front of a bunch of other people?I'm punchng out.  A government shouldn't execute its own citizens, period.  So, yes, to me your examples were "bad examples" because a government being able to murder its own citizens is a slippery slope that accomplishes nothing.  Death is never the only option for punishment.<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin" border="0" /> Dancing with the women at the bar... << He knows his Claret from his Beaujolais >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-12-05 @ 10:44 PM

silera

12-12-2005, 06:43 PM

it was a joke to allow the Ferguson/Train guy to defend himself in court when there were many witnesses to his crime.That joke is our constitution.

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Death Metal Moe

12-12-2005, 06:46 PM

Death is never the only option for punishment.We agree on this point.  Please torture the FUCK out of these assholes, then kill them.

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DTN

FUNKMAN

12-12-2005, 06:47 PM

quote: quote: it was a joke to allow the Ferguson/Train guy to defend himself in court when there were many witnesses to his crime.  That joke is our constitution.  i thought it was the justice system. the same justice system you are saying puts innocent people to deathedit: what i'm saying is if they are doing the wrong thing by putting innocent people to death then why can't it be wrong to let a murderer like Ferguson defend himself?remember, this is just discussion, not trying to bust your stones<img src="http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UQCRAl4WyHLYmr7dmRaNq9LkFDSutySVXtZT!2DBFo9cdLLOy T0wW*F93FRtcPlf*xMPhVXRGqhe6SJySdgLcTKyu!jrvKbU!du NFBLOnRJxEbhL0qxR9qln3GX9xzMO/FUNKMAN.JPG?dc=4675521713262985004" border="0" />

This message was edited by FUNKMAN on 12-12-05 @ 10:49 PM

TheMojoPin

12-12-2005, 06:49 PM

quote:  quote: Death is never the only option for punishment.  We agree on this point.  Please torture the FUCK out of these assholes, then kill them.<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=njdmmoe" border="0" /> <a href="http://www.unhallowed.com/">www.unhallowed.com</a> <a href="http://thebigsexxxy.blogspot.com/">One Big SeXXXy Blog</a> <a href="http://www.myspace.com/deathmetalmoe">Death Metal MySpace</a> DTN So when at ANY point do we cross the magical line that makes OTHER people who do all of this stuff "bad guys?" 

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DJEvelEd

12-12-2005, 06:55 PM

The death penalty killed Jesus.        ....some say it was suicide! 

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HBox

12-12-2005, 06:59 PM

We agree on this point.  Please torture the FUCK out of these assholes, then kill them.I got a great country for you: <img width="432" height="288" border="0" src="http://www.theodora.com/flags/sa.gif" />

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Death Metal Moe

12-12-2005, 07:01 PM

quote:  quote: We agree on this point.  Please torture the FUCK out of these assholes, then kill them.  I got a great country for you: <img height="288" src="http://www.theodora.com/flags/sa.gif" width="432" border="0" /> <img src="http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4544/newsig2ki.jpg" border="0" /> LULULULULULULULULULULULULULULULULULULULULULULULULU LULULULULULU!!!!!!! 

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silera

12-12-2005, 07:10 PM

i thought it was the justice system. the same justice system you are saying puts innocent people to deathedit: what i'm saying is if they are doing the wrong thing by putting innocent people to death then why can't it be wrong to let a murderer like Ferguson defend himself?remember, this is just discussion, not trying to bust your stonesI never mentioned innocent people getting the death penalty.  I really think that the number is neglible.  I simply think it's an easy out for criminals that merit it, and debases our society when enacted by reducing us to the same level.

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FUNKMAN

12-12-2005, 07:16 PM

I never mentioned innocent people getting the death penalty.  I really think that the number is neglible.  I simply think it's an easy out for criminals that merit it, and debases our society when enacted by reducing us to the same levelokay, I would just differ on the "easy out" part. maybe if i think about it more but right now i can't equate being put to death to being an easy out...   

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Dirtybird12

12-12-2005, 08:15 PM

<img height="197" src="http://www.newcriminologist.co.uk/casefiles/images/dahmer_poto.jpg" width="195" border="0" /><img height="155" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ef/Harrisklebold.jpg" width="180" border="0" /><img height="192" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold.jpg/250px-Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold.jpg" width="249" border="0" /><img height="204" src="http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/955000/images/_955194_chapmanafp150.jpg" width="150" border="0" />Just a few people who are 100% guilty. 

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Dirtybird12

12-12-2005, 08:28 PM

Our society is worse off with keeping murderers alive. It cheapens murder. End of story - Death Penalty wins...again. chalk one up for the good guys. God Bless the families of all the victims involved. Good night. 

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A.J.

12-13-2005, 12:17 AM

quote:  quote: We agree on this point.  Please torture the FUCK out of these assholes, then kill them.  I got a great country for you: <img height="288" src="http://www.theodora.com/flags/sa.gif" width="432" border="0" /> <img src="http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4544/newsig2ki.jpg" border="0" /> See also Iran, Pakistan and wherever else the country's system of jurisprudence is based on Shariah law (i.e. what the Quran says).  Beheadings, stonings, amputations, it's all in there.  There is currently a case where a literal interpretation of "an eye for an eye" retribution is being considered:  a man got into a fight, punched the other guy in the face, the other guy later lost the vision in that eye and now the guy who hit him could be blinded in one eye as punishment. 

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A.J.

12-13-2005, 12:19 AM

Oh, and I'm pro-death penalty.  There are some horrible, worthless people drawing breath on this planet.  Thin the herd.

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PapaBear

12-13-2005, 01:57 AM

After 26 votes... still 50/50. Intriguing.

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curtoid

12-13-2005, 04:33 AM

<blockquote style="">quote:There are some horrible, worthless people drawing breath on this planet. [/quote]I am with you on this, but if one innocent person is murdered by the state, that's one too many. 

I'd rather have hope in my soul than soap in my hole...

bobrobot

12-13-2005, 04:34 AM

Where there is life there is hope...      <a href="http://www.starchamber.com/paracelsus/content/brother-blue.shtml" target="_self"></a><a target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.starchamber.com/paracelsus/content/brother-blue.shtml" target="_blank"><img title="Brother Blue's Butterfly" height="239" alt="Brother Blue's Butterfly" src="http://alpha.musenet.org:81/graphics/brother_blue_bw.gif" width="171" border="0" /></a><img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/bobogolem/boboKong2.jpg" border="0" /> No chains will ever hold that!

This message was edited by bobogolem on 12-13-05 @ 8:39 AM

East Side Dave

12-13-2005, 05:19 AM

I am opposed to it but if they have to execute people they should do it on TV after Will & Grace.

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Dirtybird12

12-13-2005, 06:52 AM

quote: I am with you on this, but if one innocent person is murdered by the state, that's one too many.  I disagree. With all the GUILTY fuckers in California who have been set free by manipulating the justice system, this kinda balances it all out. Im done with this topic. I am for the death penalty. I think Mr. Williams paid his debt. It's over. I have no interest in trashing a dead man at this point.  

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bobrobot

12-13-2005, 07:08 AM

<h1><a href="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=292" target="_self">Innocence and the Death Penalty: The Increasing Danger of Executing the Innocent</a></h1> <a href="http://www.truthinjustice.org/dpissues.htm" target="_self">Death Penalty Issues</a> <img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/bobogolem/boboKong2.jpg" border="0" /> No chains will ever hold that!

This message was edited by bobogolem on 12-13-05 @ 11:10 AM

Knowledged_one

12-13-2005, 07:16 AM

quote: That's 3 examples.You're honestly saying the majority of people put to death have been 100% guilty, without a single shadow of a doubt?Since the system has already been proven to have killed innocent people multiple times, I can't think of a stronger argument AGAINST such a system.Again, why not focus on trying to make our prisons WORK?  All the thinking is on revenge and vengeance and "forget 'em after sentencing justice."  Shouldn't reform and rehabilitation be the ultimate goal?Obviously, there are plenty of people that should be in jail away from the public for the rest of their lives.  But it seems that mentality has shifted to cover the bulk of people convicted of a crime...ANY crime.  If you've served time, you're useless.  What's accomplished?  Why both setting anyone free?And look, if we're really gonna flog this "Christian nation" bullshit, a continuing death penalty is a sick joke at best.  Make up your friggin' minds.<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin" border="0" /> Dancing with the women at the bar... << He knows his Claret from his Beaujolais >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."So your idea for fixing the prisons is what now?  You are so typical in every one of your posts where you take the moral high ground, you say things need to be done, but where is your ideas to fix the problem.  All you do is point out the problem give us a solution 

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silera

12-13-2005, 07:26 AM

Im done with this topic. Why start the topic if you're not willing to have a discussion about it?You simply needed an audience?

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Dirtybird12

12-13-2005, 07:27 AM

Becaue nothing you or anyone else will change my mind.  I meant I was done with trashing Tookie. The man did the crime, he's dead.

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Dirtybird12

12-13-2005, 07:28 AM

quote:  quote: Im done with this topic.  Why start the topic if you're not willing to have a discussion about it?You simply needed an audience?Yes. I do need an audience. <a href="http://www.thecosmiccircus.com/">www.TheCosmicCircus.com</a> I don't care about numbers, morals, anything else - if you murder someone in cold blood, you should die. MY OPINION. Don't worry , I haven't decided to be president yet. So my opinion means nothing. I am not wrong or right.  NEither are you. <a href="http://www.thecosmiccircus.com/"><img src="http://www.thecosmiccircus.com/sigpics/wiz.jpg" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.perrynoid.com/" target="blank">Perrynoid</a>

This message was edited by CircusFreak on 12-13-05 @ 11:38 AM

TheMojoPin

12-13-2005, 02:10 PM

quote: quote: That's 3 examples.You're honestly saying the majority of people put to death have been 100% guilty, without a single shadow of a doubt?Since the system has already been proven to have killed innocent people multiple times, I can't think of a stronger argument AGAINST such a system.Again, why not focus on trying to make our prisons WORK?  All the thinking is on revenge and vengeance and "forget 'em after sentencing justice."  Shouldn't reform and rehabilitation be the ultimate goal?Obviously, there are plenty of people that should be in jail away from the public for the rest of their lives.  But it seems that mentality has shifted to cover the bulk of people convicted of a crime...ANY crime.  If you've served time, you're useless.  What's accomplished?  Why both setting anyone free?And look, if we're really gonna flog this "Christian nation" bullshit, a continuing death penalty is a sick joke at best.  Make up your friggin' minds.<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin" border="0" /> Dancing with the women at the bar... << He knows his Claret from his Beaujolais >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..." So your idea for fixing the prisons is what now?  You are so typical in every one of your posts where you take the moral high ground, you say things need to be done, but where is your ideas to fix the problem.  All you do is point out the problem give us a solution <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Aggie/Wu1.jpg" border="0" /> Internet Tough Guy #1 - Just look at my e-muscles Very simple...make rehabilitation the focus.  The main push right now is to just lock people up and forget about them, no matter what they were convicted of.  There's zero thought to what's going to happen down the line when they get out after the day they first get locked up.  So why ever let anyone out of jail in the first place?  The system is already in place...it just needs to be refined.  You need to focus on rehabilitation as much as possible (be it psychological, medical, education, whatever) BEFORE punishment, not the other way around.  Otherwise, seriously, why bother not sending someone to jail for life?  Because releasing a lot of people under the current system almost ensures they'll engage in more crime and end up in prison.  The prison system is in a holding pattern right now that establishes nothing unless you want to lock someone away for life, and unless that's your solution for EVERYONE who gets convicted of a crime and setenced with jailtime, the penal system is an absolute failure when it comes to large scale rehabilitation.  Of course it's not going to work for everyone...no system is perfect.  But there's obvious room for improvement.On a whole, it really comes to mentality and personal politcs as to whether or not you're going to agree with this.  In my opinion, the state of our educational system, prison system, legal system and welfare/poverty system are all deeply entwined.  Yeah, this brands me as a flaming hippie, but all of them require a lot of overhaul and a lot of money to attempt some genuine change, because otherwise it's just a steady slope downwards.  These are simple, singular problems you can zero on and easily fix.  It's a massive cracking of the foundation of the American social contract.Times and people change, and out national institutions need to change with them, too.  Evolution all the way...none of this is static. 

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DJEvelEd

12-13-2005, 02:31 PM

Drop them in the middle of Iran. Let nature take it's course. Implant trackers on them. If they stay out of America they can roam free to terrorize the assholes of the world.   <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> FLING <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> FLING <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ........... <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/images/smileredoh.gif" border="0" /> SPLATT <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/images/smileredoh.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/images/smileredoh.gif" border="0" /> SPLATT <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/images/smileredoh.gif" border="0" /> PUTTING THE FUNNY IN PRESENTLY SEEN DEPTHS SPONSORED BY:"THE FÆCES™OF CÆSAR" BY ÆSOP ©464 B.C. <img src="http://64.177.177.182/katylina/shockposters.jpg" border="0" />

This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 12-13-05 @ 6:33 PM

Dougie Brootal

12-13-2005, 03:44 PM

i think the death penalty is not a deterrant...only cuz they dont do it outside in front of the entire town any more<img src="http://www.flygtninge-i-fare.dk/irbil.9.jpg" border="0" />

CaptClown

12-13-2005, 07:37 PM

quote: Very simple...make rehabilitation the focus.  The main push right now is to just lock people up and forget about them, no matter what they were convicted of.  There's zero thought to what's going to happen down the line when they get out after the day they first get locked up.  So why ever let anyone out of jail in the first place?  The system is already in place...it just needs to be refined.  You need to focus on rehabilitation as much as possible (be it psychological, medical, education, whatever) BEFORE punishment, not the other way around.  Otherwise, seriously, why bother not sending someone to jail for life?  Because releasing a lot of people under the current system almost ensures they'll engage in more crime and end up in prison.  The prison system is in a holding pattern right now that establishes nothing unless you want to lock someone away for life, and unless that's your solution for EVERYONE who gets convicted of a crime and setenced with jailtime, the penal system is an absolute failure when it comes to large scale rehabilitation.  Of course it's not going to work for everyone...no system is perfect.  But there's obvious room for improvement.On a whole, it really comes to mentality and personal politcs as to whether or not you're going to agree with this.  In my opinion, the state of our educational system, prison system, legal system and welfare/poverty system are all deeply entwined.  Yeah, this brands me as a flaming hippie, but all of them require a lot of overhaul and a lot of money to attempt some genuine change, because otherwise it's just a steady slope downwards.  These are simple, singular problems you can zero on and easily fix.  It's a massive cracking of the foundation of the American social contract.Times and people change, and out national institutions need to change with them, too.  Evolution all the way...none of this is static. Quick question. How are you going to make the prisoners care about being rehabilitated who don't want to be rehabilitated? They have 3 hots, a cot, gym equipment, full healthcare coverage, legal libraries and unlimited time to play mindgames with people who want to rehabilite them. Most of criminals are into crime because it gives them a rush . Director of the C.Y.A. Society. Field Marshal of the K.I.S.S. Army Poison Clan rocks the world

This message was edited by CaptClown on 12-13-05 @ 11:39 PM

Dirtybird12

12-13-2005, 08:02 PM

this thread is so "tookie"

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Death Metal Moe

12-13-2005, 09:48 PM

quote: this thread is so "tookie" <a href="http://www.thecosmiccircus.com/"><img src="http://www.thecosmiccircus.com/sigpics/wiz.jpg" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.perrynoid.com/" target="blank">Perrynoid</a> Room temperature and rotting with a slight odor?

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DTN

TheMojoPin

12-14-2005, 05:05 AM

Quick question. How are you going to make the prisoners care about being rehabilitated who don't want to be rehabilitated?Then you're probably not going to.  As I said in my last post, there's no one way of doing things when it comes to prisons that's going to help or change or everyone.  I just think there can be massive improvements in the current system that would ultimately help us prevent crime down the line...which is something I ASSUME everyone here wants, right?  I'm not proposing this stuff for the hell of it, or because I feel sorry for the criminals...I'm saying it because I honestly think it would make all of us safer.Prison should be the place that we use to actually LEARN about criminal activity, and use that knowledge to prevent it.  Why are pretty much any and all criminals of all types just tossed together into the mix?  Sure, you have things like the minimum/medium/maximum security breakdowns, but within those you have guys that killed someone on accident while driving drunk with a guy who bashed a girlfriend's head in with a hammer.  Why?  Extensive studies and psyche profiles could help distinguish who has a better shot at rehabilitation...invest in that type of program and use it to reorganize the prison population so you don't have the more problomatic prisoners mixing with those that have a chance or are "on the fence."  I mean, just off the top of my head, in most prisons, why are guys in for life with no chance for parole usually mixed in with prisoners who COULD get out down the line?  That makes zero sense to me.  Death row inmates are sperated from the rest...why aren't lifers?  There needs to be more of a strategy in where these guys are placed and who with.I also think minimal contact with other prisoners is necessary.  Not solitude (unless a prisoner's behavior obviously demanded it), because that'll probably screw up a person with a chance to get out even more...just keep it to a minimum.  Things like classes are only going to work if you don't allow the rivalries and pecking order of the prisons as they are now into the classrooms or workshops.They have 3 hots, a cot, gym equipment, full healthcare coverage, legal libraries and unlimited time to play mindgames with people who want to rehabilite them.You're describing the "holding pattern" I was actually complaining about before.  I DON'T agree with what you're talking about.  It's indicative of the "toss 'em behind bars and forget about 'em" attitude.  Prisoners need to be on a strict lifestyle, not unlike the military, maybe even moreso.  A set schedule so they are some specific at all times...not just milling around.  I have no problem with them having access to a library...as long as it's with something like, "you can have 'library time' from 1 PM until 2 PM and that's IT."  Now, complaining that prisoners get meals, beds and medical care is pretty asinine...we're not some brutal dictatorship...those are basic human needs.  But the rest of it...guys having large amounts of time to mill around, and drift between the gym or the library or the computer room or the TV or whatever...no, that's got to stop.Look, in the end, I just want us to USE our prisons to actually do some good down the line, as opposed to just being the dumping grounds after something has already happened.  Yeah, AGAIN, it's not going to work for everyone...that's life, and you deal with those prisoners differently and SPERATELY.  But until we're willing to seriously invest in our penal system (getting enough people, and the right people, to guide rehabilitation is going to cost money, no way around it), they're not going to accomplish much until then, unless we're going to start locking more people up for life or killing them, because as it stands, odds are you put someone in for a few years and they get out, they're going to still be a criminal (a

sr71blackbird

12-14-2005, 05:09 AM

Im for it.  If there is no penalty (and I do not believe that a roof over your head and 3 meals a day and medical care for life is a penalty), then there is no motivation to NOT commit murder.  Because if we have to rely soley upon peoples moral conviction's to curb the amount of capital crimes like this, then there will never be a decline in murders.  In other countrys where they have swift, severe penaltys, you do not see rabid crime. 

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TheMojoPin

12-14-2005, 05:20 AM

Are you kidding me?Most of the countries with the highest rates of capital punishment are "3rd world countries" where crime is rampant because of the poverty.

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TheMojoPin

12-14-2005, 05:30 AM

quote: Im for it.  If there is no penalty (and I do not believe that a roof over your head and 3 meals a day and medical care for life is a penalty), then there is no motivation to NOT commit murder.  Im for it.  If there is no penalty (and I do not believe that a roof over your head and 3 meals a day and medical care for life is a penalty), then there is no motivation to NOT commit murder.  If we tailored the system, it would be.  Lifers should be in near-isolation because of what they've done...meals, shelter and medical care should be the PERKS for the rest of their life.  You're right, as it stands now, prison for guys like that is more of an inconveniance than anything else.  Why don't we try and change that?  Oh, right...apparently it takes too much time, money and resources.  Well, guess things are fine as they are.Why can't we we use thse type of criminals as basically case studies?  Don't we want to try and figure out why this stuff happens?  And more importantly, how we can stop it down the line?  The dude's in jail...he's not going anywhere.  USE him to hopefully save other people, criminals and victims.  Sure, some people ARE "just nuts."  But Tookie is a great example of using someone to try and learn why what he did is happening over and over and over and over and over again all over the country.  Did he have way too many liberties as a lifer?  Yeah, I definitely think so.  But in the end, I think he was of more use alive than dead as long as he was locked up as a lifer like I've described, NOT how he was actually living up until his death.Bottom line, the death penalty barely deters anyone.  Is it really going to be on someone's mind during a crime of passion?  Or if someone IS hopelessly nuts or determined to kill someone, why would they themselves dying LATER stop them from killing NOW, if that's what they had their mind set on?  Even if the appeals process is magically gone (which is absurd, it's an essential part of our legal system that works for ALL of us, not just murderers), who cares how quickly we execute someone?  They already killed who they wanted to kill.  At that point, killing them has the same effectiveness as keeping them in jail in terms of preventing them from doing it again to people on the street.  

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Death Metal Moe

12-14-2005, 06:15 AM

You people argue like we're lining people we just convicted up everyday and gunning them down.  I'm not completley happy with how long it takes to execute people, but there is a system of checks and balances in place.  WE don't just rush in.  Kill.  It's the law.

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DTN

mendyweiss

12-14-2005, 06:41 AM

By the way, What were the names of the 4 people executed by Tookie?Thought so.

I say sweeping the pockets of the Dutchman was not Mob business!

TheMojoPin

12-14-2005, 06:43 AM

Oh, so you knew?Thought so.

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DJEvelEd

12-14-2005, 10:01 AM

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This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 12-14-05 @ 2:02 PM

TheMojoPin

12-14-2005, 11:38 AM

The most successful numerical approach to quantum field theory begins with a formulation of quantum mechanics developed by Feynman in which a quantum amplitude is described as a weighted integral over all possible paths (not necessarily obeying the classical equations) which start at the system's initial state and end at the final state. For single particle quantum mechanics the quantum amplitude <qf(tf)| qi(ti)> for a transition from position qi at time ti to position qf at time tf is written as:<qf(tf)| qi(ti)> = òdq[t]eiA[q]where A[q(t)] is the classical action for the path q(t) given byA = òtitf {½ m q'2 - V(q(t))}dtThis is a sophisticated Wiener integration over function space and is typically an awkward formalism for analytic calculation. However, it is nicely suited for numerical work since it replaces the normal operator/Hilbert space formalism of quantum mechanics with an explicit integral.The path integral appropriate for quantum field theory is similar to the equation above except that the integration must be performed over all possible time evolutions of field configurations rather than particle trajectories. In our physical problem, a field configuration specifies both the quark and gluon fields as particular functions of space. A particular time evolution then specifies these fields as functions of space and time. This problem is easily put in a numerically tractable from by replacing the space-time continuum by a grid or lattice of points, conventionally a uniform, four-dimension mesh.The field theory analogue of the single-particle action given in the equation above is a similar polynomial in the field variables and their derivatives, integrated over space-time. Thus, the corresponding discrete field theory action will be a four-dimensional sum of a local density which depends on the lattice field variables at a specific lattice site and its nearest neighbors.The actual integration appropriate for the lattice QCD evaluation of an observable O is typically performed as a Monte Carlo average,<0| O |0> = 1/N Sn=1N O({U}n),over an ensemble of configurations for the gluon fields {U}n, N ³ n ³ 1. Each configuration assign a specific 3x3 complex matrix U to each link connecting neighboring sites in the lattice. The ensemble used above is generated by a Metropolis or molecular dynamics algorithm so as to be distributed according to the positive definite statistic weight:e{b/6SP tr UP} det(D+m)The sum is over all elementary squares or plaquettes, P, that can be constructed out of four lattice links and UP is the ordered product of the corresponding U matrices associated with those links. The quark fields correspond to anti-commuting classical variable and cannot be treated numerically as an integral but instead are represented by the determinant above. Here D is a nearest neighbor difference operator and 'm', the quark mass matrix. Typically, the forc

PapaBear

04-16-2008, 08:19 PM

But I felt like talking about it.

Executions to resume after high court OK's lethal injections (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h_03CF5lNboO6lRuo483ldXUOMCwD9035TP80)

I still don't really know what my final opinion is on the death penalty. Aside from the moral ramifications, I don't trust the government with this power. Still... It's been a HUGE issue here in Winchester as of late.

Back in 1999, one of our city police officers was murdered in the line of duty. He's the only cop to ever be murdered in our nearly 300 year history. The guy who did it was set to be executed on April 8th of this year, but the Governor gave him a stay until July 24th, pending the Supreme Court's ruling on the issue. He got a HUGE amount of heat from the family of the slain officer because of it.

Now that the court has made it's decision, it looks as though the execution will finally go through after almost 9 years. Again... I'm not sure how I finally feel about the death penalty in general, but I think I'm pretty satisfied that this guy will die.

He shot the cop right between the eyes, and the only thing he had on him was the illegal gun. Had he not shot the cop, he probably would have just been deported back to his home in Jamaica. As it turns out, the only reason the cop was chasing him, was because of a case of mistaken identity. He was out with a probation/parole officer, doing random checks. He thought the guy was someone else, and as he approached him, the guy started running.

At the time of his death Sergeant Ricky Timbrook (http://www.odmp.org/officer/15316-sergeant-ricky-lee-timbrook) and his wife were expecting their first child to be born less than two months.

Knowledged_one

04-17-2008, 01:17 PM

Man rereading that stuff i forgot how (and mojo please dont take offense) how much i hated mojo back in those days.

Funny how time changes a person

Knowledged_one

04-17-2008, 01:19 PM

and i also wanted to say that i think it was in Kentucky a case where they want to execute a child rapist. The guy repeatedly raped his 8 year old daughter, and now the case is about how the death penalty is used for murderers only and now they want to include this as well

I say cut their heads off

Jujubees2

04-18-2008, 05:24 AM

and i also wanted to say that i think it was in Kentucky a case where they want to execute a child rapist. The guy repeatedly raped his 8 year old daughter, and now the case is about how the death penalty is used for murderers only and now they want to include this as well

I say cut their heads off

Which one?

TheMojoPin

04-18-2008, 07:42 AM

Man rereading that stuff i forgot how (and mojo please dont take offense) how much i hated mojo back in those days.

Funny how time changes a person

I agree...my eloquent arguments in this thread are amazing.

Knowledged_one

04-18-2008, 07:49 AM

Oh you havent changed my mind, but i am more respectful now towards others opinions

and Jujubee - all death row inmates

PapaBear

02-18-2009, 10:58 PM

But I felt like talking about it.

Executions to resume after high court OK's lethal injections (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h_03CF5lNboO6lRuo483ldXUOMCwD9035TP80)

I still don't really know what my final opinion is on the death penalty. Aside from the moral ramifications, I don't trust the government with this power. Still... It's been a HUGE issue here in Winchester as of late.

Back in 1999, one of our city police officers was murdered in the line of duty. He's the only cop to ever be murdered in our nearly 300 year history. The guy who did it was set to be executed on April 8th of this year, but the Governor gave him a stay until July 24th, pending the Supreme Court's ruling on the issue. He got a HUGE amount of heat from the family of the slain officer because of it.

Now that the court has made it's decision, it looks as though the execution will finally go through after almost 9 years. Again... I'm not sure how I finally feel about the death penalty in general, but I think I'm pretty satisfied that this guy will die.

He shot the cop right between the eyes, and the only thing he had on him was the illegal gun. Had he not shot the cop, he probably would have just been deported back to his home in Jamaica. As it turns out, the only reason the cop was chasing him, was because of a case of mistaken identity. He was out with a probation/parole officer, doing random checks. He thought the guy was someone else, and as he approached him, the guy started running.

At the time of his death Sergeant Ricky Timbrook (http://www.odmp.org/officer/15316-sergeant-ricky-lee-timbrook) and his wife were expecting their first child to be born less than two months.
Assuming Governor Kaine doesn't let him off the hook, He will die tonight at 9PM. (http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/state_regional/article/EXEC19_20090218-214835/210201/)

I'm still opposed to the death penalty, but I don't think this guy should be saved unless the law is changed in the next 18 hours.

TjM

02-19-2009, 03:29 AM

ya know what...yer right maybe we should just slap Osma Bin Ladin on the wrist instead of killing him....and tell him not to flatten NYC again in the future .  maybe we should let Saddam free, give Iraq back to him and apologize to him for having a blood thirsty hick running this country..THOUSANDS Of people were killed under his orders. And your saying that someone like that has a reason to live?fuck that.     <a href="http://www.thecosmiccircus.com/"><img src="http://www.thecosmiccircus.com/sigpics/wiz.jpg" border="0" /></a> <a href="http://www.perrynoid.com/" target="blank">Perrynoid</a>

This message was edited by CircusFreak on 12-12-05 @ 5:11 PM

Umm small point but getting rid of Saddam was one of the dumbest moves we made. Yes he butchered his own people but we have allies that are just as bad. We removed the one fucking element that stabilized that shit hole and now we're paying for it. Saddam could never have fucked with us and he knew it. Also Bin Laden and Saddam were not even remotely close to allies

Syd

02-19-2009, 06:10 AM

Fuck the death penalty and whoever supports it. It's leftover from the neanderthal fucking thinking of the scots-irish honor obsessed assholes who immigrated here. There's no reason a government as the right to kill one of its own citizens, especially just for the sake of spilling some blood to make people feel better.

Either fuck off with it or institute Sharia Law so we can start really doing some honor killings. For a nation of supposed billy badasses there's no reason why we shouldn't be beheading every single person that wronged us.

made cummsies

02-19-2009, 12:22 PM

Your post is bulllshit on a stick! No its not a left over from "scots-irish" its tied to the ideology of the hammurabic code. And yes, in the certain States the government does have the right to execute people based on the prevailing laws. If you want those changed then get involved and don't just bitch about it on a message board.

Your argument about implementing Sharia law is fundamentally flawed for several reasons. First and foremost the US criminal and civil codes are secular and based on common and legislative statues. Given the nature of the laws they're fluid and will change with societal and cultural evolution. Sharia is a religiously structured framework that presides over all aspects of individual and has little flexibility in its interpretation or delivery.

But back to the question at hand and supporting capitol punishment. Absolutely! There are some people who have committed heinous crimes and culled from the herd.

CofyCrakCocaine

02-19-2009, 01:45 PM

Fuck the death penalty and whoever supports it. It's leftover from the neanderthal fucking thinking of the scots-irish honor obsessed assholes who immigrated here. There's no reason a government as the right to kill one of its own citizens, especially just for the sake of spilling some blood to make people feel better.

Either fuck off with it or institute Sharia Law so we can start really doing some honor killings. For a nation of supposed billy badasses there's no reason why we shouldn't be beheading every single person that wronged us.

You're very eloquent. Can you put in a few more swear words so we'll take you more seriously?

CofyCrakCocaine

02-19-2009, 01:54 PM

I have never been a fan of generalizations, and this applies to laws. The death penalty should be considered on a case by case situation. It should not be that if one guy gets the death penalty, then all in that group gets the death penalty. Nor should it be the other way around, where if one group is exempt from the DP then all others are as well.

It really is a ridiculous statement on the childlike mentality of humans that we obsessively try to imitate each other to a point beyond comprehension. Unfortunately, precedence in law is fundamental in its significance and nothing can stop that.

As for the argument that Saddam was a great stabilizer of Iraq: Iran-Iraq War? Stable? He was a horrid leader and fucked his country up on numerous occasions- best of all, he didn't give a shit. Of course, the U.S. leadership in Iraq post-Saddam has been even worse, without the same scale of fearful depravity.

CofyCrakCocaine

02-19-2009, 02:00 PM

One final question.

If all you anti-DP people hate the idea of the government killing convicted murder-rapists so much, then how do you feel about the idea of the government killing hundreds of families in the name of national security? Collateral damage, can't be avoided?

How about a soldier killing an enemy? It doesn't have to be kids women or some other innocent civillian, let's just say it's an enemy soldier. Is it alright that an enemy soldier is killed by the government because "they signed up and knew what they were getting themselves into"? Last I checked, getting shot was worse than lethal injection.

Apply this to a terrorist with a bomb strapped to his chest. Jack Bauer magically appears and shoots him before he can go boom. Not that this ever happens, but for the sake of argument, that's the government killing someone. Objectionable? Or acceptable?

I submit if you think any of these scenarios are acceptable in some moral way but want to "fuck the death penalty and all who support it", then you are complete and total hypocrites, and thank God the world is not run by the likes of you.

TooLowBrow

02-19-2009, 02:03 PM

One final question.

If all you anti-DP people hate the idea of the government killing convicted murder-rapists so much, then how do you feel about the idea of the government killing hundreds of families in the name of national security? Collateral damage, can't be avoided?

How about a soldier killing an enemy? It doesn't have to be kids women or some other innocent civillian, let's just say it's an enemy soldier. Is it alright that an enemy soldier is killed by the government because "they signed up and knew what they were getting themselves into"? Last I checked, getting shot was worse than lethal injection.

Apply this to a terrorist with a bomb strapped to his chest. Jack Bauer magically appears and shoots him before he can go boom. Not that this ever happens, but for the sake of argument, that's the government killing someone. Objectionable? Or acceptable?

I submit if you think any of these scenarios are acceptable in some moral way but want to "fuck the death penalty and all who support it", then you are complete and total hypocrites, and thank God the world is not run by the likes of you.

im against all those things. there's NEVER been a good reason for one person to take the life of another

underdog

02-19-2009, 02:04 PM

im against all those things. there's NEVER been a good reason for one person to take the life of another

Never?

TooLowBrow

02-19-2009, 02:05 PM

Never?

never

CofyCrakCocaine

02-19-2009, 02:10 PM

im against all those things. there's NEVER been a good reason for one person to take the life of another

Then you're alright by my books. You stand by your opinion and don't back down.

I don't agree with there never been a good reason. I also don't think life itself feels obligated to happen based on good reasons.

TooLowBrow

02-19-2009, 02:15 PM

Then you're alright by my books. You stand by your opinion and don't back down.

I don't agree with there never been a good reason. I also don't think life itself feels obligated to happen based on good reasons.

with the death penalty in specific, death is not much of a punishment because the person isnt punished, they're just dead. and i dont see the revenge part of it either. victims and their families might feel better with a convict dead but it doesnt actually do anything for them to have someone dead.

TooLowBrow

02-19-2009, 02:17 PM

.

Serpico1103

02-19-2009, 03:15 PM

I submit if you think any of these scenarios are acceptable in some moral way but want to "fuck the death penalty and all who support it", then you are complete and total hypocrites, and thank God the world is not run by the likes of you.

Your analogy is a poor one. By killing someone just before they can kill others is different than killing someone who is in government custody.
I am not anti-war, but it should be a last resort, because as we see, it hardly works out well.
I am not anti-death penalty, but there is a history of the DP not being applied fairly or properly. So, in a perfect world yes the DP may be a useful tool. In our world, the DP causes more trouble than it solves.
To be clear, I am not against the DP because life is so precious. I am against it because it does more harm to society than good.

TooLowBrow

02-19-2009, 03:21 PM

im a fan of medically induced comas. for any crime. criminals would just skip years of their lives. and if it turns out someone is falsely guilty we can just wake them up.

mudflap170

02-19-2009, 03:55 PM

I absolutely support the death penalty. The trouble is we don't use it enough. Also, let's get it done faster. Enough with these rat bastards sitting on death row for 20 years.

bigredd

02-19-2009, 04:01 PM

My grandfather was murdered and I'd gladly watch the bag of shit that killed him die in a gas chamber, after getting a lethal injection, in an electric chair or whatever means the state saw fit to kill them.

In general, I look at it as a more efficient way of spending our tax dollars. I'd rather spend the money to kill em now than spend it for the rest of the scumbag's life putting a roof over their head and warm food down their gullet. I'd suspend basic human rights too. Fuck em. Let em shit in the floor and find food if they can.

TooLowBrow

02-19-2009, 04:03 PM

My grandfather was murdered and I'd gladly watch the bag of shit that killed him die in a gas chamber, after getting a lethal injection, in an electric chair or whatever means the state saw fit to kill them.

In general, I look at it as a more efficient way of spending our tax dollars. I'd rather spend the money to kill em now than spend it for the rest of the scumbag's life putting a roof over their head and warm food down their gullet. I'd suspend basic human rights too. Fuck em. Let em shit in the floor and find food if they can.

would you kill the guy yourself if you had the chance? (if you'd never get caught)

CofyCrakCocaine

02-19-2009, 08:33 PM

Your analogy is a poor one. By killing someone just before they can kill others is different than killing someone who is in government custody.
I am not anti-war, but it should be a last resort, because as we see, it hardly works out well.
I am not anti-death penalty, but there is a history of the DP not being applied fairly or properly. So, in a perfect world yes the DP may be a useful tool. In our world, the DP causes more trouble than it solves.
To be clear, I am not against the DP because life is so precious. I am against it because it does more harm to society than good.

You make zero sense. What harm has it done to society? Can you tell me how it's harmed society in America? It's not like we're talking about the Great Terror in France. You're just splitting hairs, and acting like a killing is not a killing if X Y or Z is involved. Your semantics don't mean shit if someone actually is dead as a result of the government's action. "Neutralized" and "executed" mean the same thing if the subject these terms apply to is actually DEAD as a result.

If you're against the abuse of the DP, that is different from being against the entire concept of DP in and of itself, which is what I was addressing, therefore you are a part of the population that is null and void to my analogy.

led37zep

02-19-2009, 08:47 PM

<li>Chad </li>

Hey that's my name...I should totally support the death penalty!!!!!!!

Serpico1103

02-20-2009, 03:25 PM

You make zero sense. What harm has it done to society? Can you tell me how it's harmed society in America? It's not like we're talking about the Great Terror in France. You're just splitting hairs, and acting like a killing is not a killing if X Y or Z is involved. Your semantics don't mean shit if someone actually is dead as a result of the government's action. "Neutralized" and "executed" mean the same thing if the subject these terms apply to is actually DEAD as a result.

If you're against the abuse of the DP, that is different from being against the entire concept of DP in and of itself, which is what I was addressing, therefore you are a part of the population that is null and void to my analogy.

It is not semantics. Killing someone to prevent them from killing is different than killing someone because they have killed someone. Understand?

If I punch you in the face while you are taking my wallet that is the same to you as if I just walked past you and punched you in the face unprovoked?
Both are just punches, a punch is a punch right?

To end the argument over semantics.
I don't care about killing people. Unfortunately, it is usually not the most effective method in the real world. How are our wars going? How effective has the DP been as a deterrent?
If the DP helps, great, if not, stop using it.

high fly

02-21-2009, 12:28 PM

I voted anti-death penalty.

There have been too many cases where people were wrongly convicted of capital crimes in America.

Check out the Innocence Project for over 100 Death Row cases that were reversed and many others.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

There have even been cases where DNA evidence was found to be faulty.

Lots of people were ready to lynch Gary Condit for the Chandra Levy murder.

Lots of people were convinced the Duke lacrosse team gang-raped that stripper.

Lots of people were ready to lynch the teachers at the McMartin school who were accused of some pretty disgusting child abuse.

When we look at the cases listed a the Innocence project site as well as others, what we learn is it may take 20 years or more before guilt or innocence is truly determined, despite appeals and seemingly overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

underdog

02-21-2009, 12:32 PM

Lots of people were ready to lynch Gary Condit for the Chandra Levy murder.

Gary Condit didn't murder Chandra Levy?

high fly

02-21-2009, 02:44 PM

Gary Condit didn't murder Chandra Levy?

Haven't you seen the news?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/21/AR2009022100486.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

And I guess my other points were unassailable...

underdog

02-21-2009, 03:00 PM

Haven't you seen the news?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/21/AR2009022100486.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

And I guess my other points were unassailable...

Hmm... hadn't seen that. Thanks.

high fly

02-21-2009, 03:24 PM

Hmm... hadn't seen that. Thanks.

There's a motorcycle gang out there that can breathe easier...

JohnGacysCrawlSpace

02-21-2009, 05:08 PM

Life is not precious. The universe does not care who lives and who dies. Nature's role is an unending cycle of creation and destruction on a grand scale. The role of an individual's life or death does not matter in the greater scheme of things.

cougarjake13

02-21-2009, 07:50 PM

In circumstances where guilt is 100% proven, are you pro-death penalty or against it?

im pro death penalty regardless of percentages

we need to thin this herd

cougarjake13

02-21-2009, 07:59 PM

with the death penalty in specific, death is not much of a punishment because the person isnt punished, they're just dead. and i dont see the revenge part of it either. victims and their families might feel better with a convict dead but it doesnt actually do anything for them to have someone dead.

but whats the purpose of having someone incarcerated for life without the ability of parole ?? if he isnt ever getting out because of the no parole then why are we wasting space, taxpayer money, etc. on an inmate that its irrelevant if he gets rehabilitated or not b/c he's never getting back to society for it to even matter

as for the punishment part, if they're in their for life with no parole then letting them rot for x amount of years doesnt mean anything, theres just no reason for them to exist at that point

and i think that the govt should change the law for kid touchers to be automatic death penalty if convicted.. theres just no need for them to be alive anymore if they do shit like that

high fly

02-21-2009, 10:29 PM

im pro death penalty regardless of percentages

I am anti-execution of the innocent, because of the percentages.

high fly

02-21-2009, 10:31 PM

but whats the purpose of having someone incarcerated for life without the ability of parole ?? if he isnt ever getting out because of the no parole then why are we wasting space, taxpayer money, etc. on an inmate that its irrelevant if he gets rehabilitated or not b/c he's never getting back to society for it to even matter

Because in many cases, it takes 15 or 20 or even more years before someone is exonerated.

Spend some time here looking at cases:
http://www.innocenceproject.org/

The person who is falsely accused could be you one day....

bigredd

02-22-2009, 06:07 AM

would you kill the guy yourself if you had the chance? (if you'd never get caught)

I used to think so but probably not. I could be responsible for it...sub contracting it out etc but probably not personally...maybe...probably not.

SP1!

02-22-2009, 08:00 AM

with the death penalty in specific, death is not much of a punishment because the person isnt punished, they're just dead. and i dont see the revenge part of it either. victims and their families might feel better with a convict dead but it doesnt actually do anything for them to have someone dead.

I used to agree that they are just dead but the problem is they made the prisons too nice in the past 20 or so years and now they seem to parole killers more than they ever did, it disgusts me. If you kill someone you should lose your rights to live in society, period.

Now, with all that out there, I do have some issues with the DP. DNA testing has freed quite a few people in the past 10 years so I guess I would have to be in the 100% camp that someone is guilty. From what I have read even lethal injection isnt as painless as we were led to believe and the first injection pretty much paralyzes you muscle system so you cant twitch and make people uneasy witnessing it.

SP1!

02-22-2009, 08:17 AM

would you kill the guy yourself if you had the chance? (if you'd never get caught)
Shit it someone killed a close family member fuck yeah in a heartbeat if they did it just to rob them or as a serial killer type thing, I guess it has to be with malice and not just an accident like in a car wreck. There is a difference when two kind of innocent people end up involved since their life is over as they know it as well, I feel no remorse for killing when its someone who has a fucking war and peace novel length type crime record. Some people are scum and should be eliminated from the gene pool.

TooLowBrow

02-22-2009, 10:20 AM

but whats the purpose of having someone incarcerated for life without the ability of parole ?? if he isnt ever getting out because of the no parole then why are we wasting space, taxpayer money, etc. on an inmate that its irrelevant if he gets rehabilitated or not b/c he's never getting back to society for it to even matter

as for the punishment part, if they're in their for life with no parole then letting them rot for x amount of years doesnt mean anything, theres just no reason for them to exist at that point

and i think that the govt should change the law for kid touchers to be automatic death penalty if convicted.. theres just no need for them to be alive anymore if they do shit like that
i think incarceration is the stupidest thing ever. if it worked our jails would be empty and we'd have no crime. obviously it do not work as a deterrent or as punishmant

TooLowBrow

02-22-2009, 10:24 AM

I used to agree that they are just dead but the problem is they made the prisons too nice in the past 20 or so years and now they seem to parole killers more than they ever did, it disgusts me. If you kill someone you should lose your rights to live in society, period.

Now, with all that out there, I do have some issues with the DP. DNA testing has freed quite a few people in the past 10 years so I guess I would have to be in the 100% camp that someone is guilty. From what I have read even lethal injection isnt as painless as we were led to believe and the first injection pretty much paralyzes you muscle system so you cant twitch and make people uneasy witnessing it.

i dont care that the death penalty is painful. i mind the fact that a society can, under the right circumstances, take a life. i dont believe anyone has that right.

i would agree with people on death row being hooked up to some sort of suicide machine. if someone takes a life they should have to give up their own life. but it has to be them who does it, WE cannot become murderers just do deal with murderers

high fly

02-22-2009, 02:43 PM

I used to agree that they are just dead but the problem is they made the prisons too nice in the past 20 or so years and now they seem to parole killers more than they ever did, it disgusts me. If you kill someone you should lose your rights to live in society, period.

Now, with all that out there, I do have some issues with the DP. DNA testing has freed quite a few people in the past 10 years so I guess I would have to be in the 100% camp that someone is guilty. From what I have read even lethal injection isnt as painless as we were led to believe and the first injection pretty much paralyzes you muscle system so you cant twitch and make people uneasy witnessing it.

Of those the Innocence Project got exonerated after being put on Death Row, I believe about a third of them were cases based on DNA evidence.

It is one thing to believe a murderer should be executed, but a different thing when we consider how fallible human being are.
Take a look at those cases on the Innocence Project's website.
A lot of them were convicted on eyewitness testimony, and the jury believed they were in the "100% camp."

JohnGacysCrawlSpace

02-22-2009, 04:57 PM

We can't and shouldn't save them all.

EliSnow

03-19-2009, 05:41 AM

New Mexico's state government has just banned the death penalty there. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090319/ap_on_re_us/death_penalty_new_mexico) Governor Richardson signed the bill yesterday.

Richardson said he has long believed — and still does — that the death penalty was a "just punishment" in rare cases for the worst crimes. But he said he decided to sign the repeal legislation because of flaws in how the death penalty was applied.

"More than 130 death row inmates have been exonerated in the past 10 years in this country, including four New Mexicans — a fact I cannot ignore," he said.

"Even with advances in DNA and other forensic evidence technologies, we can't be 100 percent sure that only the truly guilty are convicted of capital crimes."

A.J.

03-19-2009, 06:23 AM

That's great news for our overcrowded prisons.

EliSnow

03-19-2009, 06:28 AM

That's great news for our overcrowded prisons.

Like the death penalty was really relieving any overcrowding. How many people get sentenced the death penalty in a year, even in Texas? Even if every person sentenced death was executed the day after sentencing, it wouldn't relieve overcrowding.

And if every person sentenced to death had their sentence commuted to life, it wouldn't suddenly lead to that big of difference. It may even help relieve crowding because then the cells on death row which house one inmate can now be converted to house two inmates.

A.J.

03-19-2009, 06:35 AM

Like the death penalty was really relieving any overcrowding.

Of course not because we weren't killing enough of these animals.

grlNIN

03-19-2009, 07:12 AM

Anti-death penalty.

Not particularly religious but i can't get down with one person deciding the fat of another, it's hypocritical to me-especially given some of the context in which it's served as punishment.

But our taxes pay for them to live happy lives in jail. Yawn. I bet you more than half of the time if the criminal has done something so horrifying to warrant the DP then they're gonna get killed on the inside at some point, otherwise they're all alone in a protective part of the prison. Just them and their terrible thoughts for life.

CountryBob

03-19-2009, 07:22 AM

Escape from New York style - I think that we should have a big island that we dump the most terrible criminals on and let em rip each others heads off.

Do you think that criminals and murderers think about how far they go when in a state with the death penalty? "I really wanted to murder her after raping her but here in Virginia, they have the death penalty - and I dont want to die"

I think not.