When is it "fact" and not "opinion"? [Archive]

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fezident

05-28-2006, 11:15 AM

This stemmed from an argument with my wife and her friend after watching American Idol so, I already know I'm fighting a losing battle but, here goes: Is there ever a time when an opinion can be considered more than just that persons personal feeling but, rather...an actual fact?For example:  Taylor Hicks is not as good as Stevie Wonder.  Is that statement a FACT or just my OPINION?  I feel that it is a fact.  Based on every possible definition of what "good" singing is, Stevie Wonder is better.  But, of course...my wife and her friend had to state "well...that's your opinion but, it isn't a fact"  The argument spiraled out of control and we all cited squllions of examples but, at the end of it all, we just couldn't agree on the terms.  What makes Stevie "better"?  More record sales?  Impact? Who knows. By the end of the conversation, they were arguing that The Spice Girls were BETTER than Joni Mitchell because The Spice Girls A) sold more records and B)probably motivated more girls to pursure a career in music (both of which are actual facts and therefore...support their OPINIONS)As you can see, it was a pretty cyclical argument. PIZZA TASTES BETTER THAN DOG SHIT.  FACT.   Right?  Why? (see what I mean?) So....can your opinion ever be a fact?    EDIT: I have visions of dragging my wife over to this message board and saying "See...I'm right...and here's why"   Ahh..to dream.   Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to read the "when is it all downhill" thread.  I feel I might have something to contribute.

This message was edited by fezident on 5-28-06 @ 3:20 PM

mdr55

05-28-2006, 11:20 AM

FACT: "Iraq has WMD. We're going in to stop them from using them against us"- George W. BushFACT:"You're doing a good job, Brownie!"- George W. BushFACT:"I'm the best president the U.S.A. ever had.......next to my dad that us."- George W. Bush  If you believe it. It's a fact isn't it?

ADF

05-28-2006, 02:41 PM

A fact can't be argued against.  Taylor Hicks won American Idol; that's a fact.  "Soul Patrol" is the dumbest attempt to start a catch-phrase in history.  That's an opinion.

SatCam

05-28-2006, 02:47 PM

Is Taylor Hicks better than Stevie Wonder because he can see?

Or is Stevie Wonder better than Taylor Hicks because he's achieved so much without sight?

riddle me this.

FUNKMAN

05-28-2006, 02:49 PM

fact: ron and fez are greatopinion: ron and fez are greati say they are equal

SatCam

05-28-2006, 03:03 PM

Fez is gay. Fact.

TheQuestion

05-28-2006, 04:41 PM

<hr width="100%" size="2" />When is it "fact" and not "opinion"? <hr width="100%" size="2" />  When I state it.

Don Stugots

05-28-2006, 06:58 PM

should have said "i think it would be great if you, your and and me went and had hot sex in the bedroom, that is an opinion now lets make it a fact."

jeffdwright2001

05-28-2006, 07:50 PM

[quote]fezident wrote: This stemmed from an argument with my wife and her friend after watching American Idol so, I already know I'm fighting a losing battle but, here goes: Is there ever a time when an opinion can be considered more than just that persons personal feeling but, rather...an actual fact?  So....can your opinion ever be a fact?  o·pin·ion   <a href="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dopinion"><img alt="Audio pronunciation of "opinion"" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg" border="0" /></a> ( P )  <a title="Click for guide to symbols." href="http://www.ronfez.net/help/ahd4/pronkey.html" onclick="ahdpop();return false;">Pronunciation Key</a>  (<img height="15" alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif" width="6" align="bottom" border="0" />-p<img height="15" alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif" width="7" align="bottom" border="0" />n<img height="22" alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif" width="4" align="bottom" border="0" />y<img height="15" alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif" width="6" align="bottom" border="0" />n) n. <ol><li>A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: “The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion” (Elizabeth Drew). </li><li>A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion. </li><li>A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts. </li><li>The prevailing view: public opinion. </li><li>Law. A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court. </li></ol>Given the above definition something cannot be both an opinion and fact.  An opinion is a premise built upon a belief (in theological terms this would be mingling with someone's particular "faith").  Notice that the term "judgment" is used twice.  A judgment is the formation of an opinion after careful consideration.  A fact merely is.  It verifiably either currently exists or has been demonstrated to have existed.  Your comment about the Spice Girls and record sales (if true) would be a confirmable fact.  The information can be looked up and compared.  At that point, the statement ceases to be an opinion ("I believe the Spice Girls sold more records than Stevie Wonder") and becomes fact ("According to Billboard's website, the Spice Girls sold more records worldwide than Stevie Wonder).Where it gets tricky is when people play with facts and opinions.  A person might say that the Spice Girls sold more records and leave it at that, when the actual Fact may be that they sold more records in a particular year or even in a particular country.  The comment about the Spice Girls inspiring more girls to sing is merely opinion, as I doubt that anyone could verify it as fact.  Even a survey purporting this to be true could only go so far as to say that within their sampling of people asked, X% of girls stated they were inspired by the Spice Girls.  But survey's are another matter in themselves.Our political forum is primarily people creating opininions/judgements based upon either facts or in some cases misrepresentation of facts.  Often we can only make opinions and decisions based upon the inf

Don Stugots

05-28-2006, 07:53 PM

my responce was better, so ppppphhhhhtttttttt

FUNKMAN

05-28-2006, 08:03 PM

STUGOTS1 wrote: my responce was better, so ppppphhhhhtttttttt that's your opinion...<img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />

jeffdwright2001

05-28-2006, 08:04 PM

STUGOTS1 wrote: my responce was better, so ppppphhhhhtttttttt Neither your response nor mine would have gotten us laid.  Of course, mine wouldn't have gotten me slapped by my wife.

FezPaul

05-28-2006, 08:35 PM

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f281/FezPaul/micradio.gifAn opinion is a fact, when it is spoken into on of these.

PapaBear

05-28-2006, 08:42 PM

Damn, you Fezident! How the hell did you come up with that post at the same time I got the idea?

SinA

05-28-2006, 08:58 PM

what your wife is saying about taylor hicks is her OPINION, and she should be beaten for expressing it. you can apologize to her if taylor breaks stevie's rocord of 21 grammys and an oscar

fezident

05-29-2006, 05:12 AM

I agree that citing statistics is indisputable, and therefore....fact.It's when we start using words like "better" and "worse" that it becomes a gray area.   If you say "The Beatles suck", somebody will invariably argue that "WHAT?...The Beatles are the biggest selling group of all time!".  And...if you said "Goo Goo Dolls are so much better than The Beatles" somebody (after calling you a total idiot) would say "bullshit,  the Goo Goo Dolls have only sold 3 million records and The Beatles have sold 300 million"  People use facts to support their "better/worse" opinions.  Hence, the gray area. Like I said in my first post.  "Pizza tastes BETTER than dogshit".  That's an opinion, right?  Does the fact that nobody on earth would ever dispute it somehow make it a FACT?

stickyfingers

05-29-2006, 06:51 AM

fezident wrote: Like I said in my first post.  "Pizza tastes BETTER than dogshit".  That's an opinion, right?  Does the fact that nobody on earth would ever dispute it somehow make it a FACT?I've seen some Japanese videos where it appears some of the stars may dispute that statement.

Death Metal Moe

05-29-2006, 07:04 AM

TheQuestion wrote: <hr width="100%" size="2" />When is it "fact" and not "opinion"? <hr width="100%" size="2" />When I state it.    Respect.

ChimneyFish

05-29-2006, 11:20 AM

Music is an art. Therefore, the "who's better????" question can never truly be answered.Your wife and her friend might belong to special group of people I like to refer to as "retards", but she's pretty much right. (I'm not trying to bash, I just can't understand how a normal human brain could allow you to think that)A persons' opinion of a song/artist becomes their fact.Especially with vocals, it really comes down to what your style is. I don't like country music one bit. Fact is, there's some really talented people who sing country. Just because I don't like them, it doesn't change the fact.Personally, I think  gentleman by the name of Micheal Patton is the best vocalist ever to walk the Earth. Most of the country wouldn't agree with me, but, in my world, I've yet to see anyone better.

stickyfingers

05-29-2006, 11:34 AM

roses smell better than dirty socks....fact?

fezident

05-29-2006, 12:45 PM

ChimneyFish wrote: Music is an art. Therefore, the "who's better????" question can never truly be answered.Your wife and her friend might belong to special group of people I like to refer to as "retards", but she's pretty much right. (I'm not trying to bash, I just can't understand how a normal human brain could allow you to think that)A persons' opinion of a song/artist becomes their fact.Especially with vocals, it really comes down to what your style is. I don't like country music one bit. Fact is, there's some really talented people who sing country. Just because I don't like them, it doesn't change the fact.Personally, I think  gentleman by the name of Micheal Patton is the best vocalist ever to walk the Earth. Most of the country wouldn't agree with me, but, in my world, I've yet to see anyone better.You didn't spell your favorite vocalists name correctly.  It's: MICHAEL.  Retard. Not trying to bash though.

DeltaPin

06-02-2006, 06:27 PM

Slim Whitman beats them all.........FACT    <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/drunk.gif" border="0" />

ChimneyFish

06-03-2006, 11:40 AM

fezident wrote: You didn't spell your favorite vocalists name correctly.  It's: MICHAEL.  Retard. Not trying to bash though.Thanks for pointing it out, douche.Does it count if I say "No Basho" after a post like this????<img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> In all seriousness, I was in a total rush when I started that post, so I'm suprised it's even in an actual translatable language.From one bassist to another, maybe you could cut a fella a little slack now and again.

This message was edited by ChimneyFish on 6-3-06 @ 3:42 PM

Don Stugots

06-03-2006, 11:45 AM

since when are we nailing people to the cross for spelling errors of typos? if so, get mine reayd.

p.s. make sure it is a big one and use large nails, i am a big guy after all.

This message was edited by STUGOTS1 on 6-3-06 @ 3:46 PM

IamFogHat

06-03-2006, 11:52 AM

Your opinion can never be fact by definition.  It is a question of subjectivity.  Even if 99.9 percent of the human race says pizza is better than dog shit, they are still only saying it because that's their opinion, not based upon emperical data.  If it cannot be measured in the physical universe by time, distance, or history (ei this did happen on this date) then it cannot ever be considered fact.

ChimneyFish

06-03-2006, 11:52 AM

ChimneyFish wrote: fezident wrote: You didn't spell your favorite vocalists name correctly.  It's: MICHAEL.  Retard. Not trying to bash though.Thanks for pointing it out, douche.Does it count if I say "No Basho" after a post like this????<img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> In all seriousness, I was in a total rush when I started that post, so I'm suprised it's even in an actual translatable language.From one bassist to another, maybe you could cut a fella a little slack now and again.EDIT: I just noticed you were the one to start this thread.I apologizehhhh, if you felt I was bashing your wife. I just added that in for comedic value. I know. I stink.I truly can't understand how anyone could think that anybody that's ever been on American Idol is better than Stevie. The man is an icon, for Christs' sake.And trust me, I've been with women who have said far more foolish things than that.    Take "Hey mister, do you need some help with that couch????", for example.This message was edited by ChimneyFish on 6-3-06 @ 3:42 PM

FezPaul

06-03-2006, 12:03 PM

ChimneyFish wrote: And trust me, I've been with women who have said far more foolish things than that.    Take "Hey mister, do you need some help with that couch????", for example.<img src="http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f281/FezPaul/jamegumb.jpg" border="0" /> "Would Ya?"

This message was edited by FezPaul on 6-3-06 @ 4:07 PM