View Full Version : Flag Burning Ammendment
FMJeff
06-26-2006, 01:18 PM
<p>It looks like conservatives are tryign to get the flag burning ammendment passd again. This time they're only 1 vote away from getting it done, which is scary. In a world of terrorism and other high priority issues, it's clear conservatives have absolutely no idea how to spend congressional debate time. I highly doubt this will ever pass, but I wonder how you all feel about the issue? Do you agree that flag burning is a right given to us by the 1st ammendment? That burning the symbol of our country in effigy makes a powerful statement that the people still count, that the government is open to criticism, that it makes our nation stronger? </p><p>I am deeply concerned for the future of this country. It seems every opportunity they get conservatives are destroying this country and what it stands for. </p><p>The very nature of the word conservative is in direct contradiction to who we are as a nation and the ideals on which we were established. Was it conservative to tell England to go screw? To tell Hitler you will go no further? Everything's such a mess now, so many gray areas, compromises, ignorance...just really freaks me out. </p>
Furtherman
06-26-2006, 01:31 PM
<strong>FMJeff</strong> wrote:<br /><p>it's clear conservatives have absolutely no idea how to spend congressional debate time. </p><p> </p><p>Exactly.</p><p>Look, if you want to burn a flag, prepared to be shunned and outcasted by your friends, society and possibly beat up by anyone who saw you do it.</p><p>But it is a waste of time and money to lock someone up over it.</p><p>You have the right to burn it, but we have the right, and common sense to see you're an asshole. </p><p>The people who do it are just looking for attention anyway. Don't bother giving it to them.</p>
<p>I have a different take on what the flag represents, and that's why it bothers me so much to see people burning and desecrating it. </p><p>To me, the flag of the United States of America represents the ideals and beliefs upon which this nation was founded. it does <em><strong>not</strong></em> represent the President or the administration that happens to be in power at any particular time. It's the symbol of The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and The Bill Of Rights, as well as being a symbol of the love and passion Americans have had for those ideals through the years. Enough to die for them. </p><p>I'd rather see people burning Bush or Cheney in effigy rather than the flag. Burning the flag means you're against the principles of America, freedom of speech being one of them. </p><p> </p><p> </p>
Freedom of speech and expression doesn't exist to protect popular opinions.<br />
FMJeff
06-26-2006, 02:03 PM
<strong>HBox</strong> wrote:<br /><font color="#000080"><font size="2">Freedom of speech and expression doesn't exist to protect popular opinions.</font></font><br /><p>Agreed. I think you misinterpet the act of flag burning, GVAC. I don't like at it as dishonoring the memory, I look at as a burning reminder that we're losing sight of the awesome idea that was America. It's a protest of shifting priorities, away from the innocence and powerful message that dissent is good, that other opinoins should be heard, that sometimes its our responsibility to tell our government that for all the good they think they're doing, its killing us over here.</p>
<p>I fully agree with the right to protest. Again, it's one of the principles this nation was founded upon. I just think there are better ways to show displeasure than by desecrating a symbol many people hold sacred. </p><p>When people were protesting the Catholic Church a few years back amidst the slew of allegations against their priests, people didn't burn the Crucifix. They were angry at the Church, not the religion. If people are angry at the government, why take it out on the country?<br /></p><p>I just think it does more harm than good. </p><p>I'm completely unsure of how I feel about banning the right to burn the flag, but I just feel it's incredibly disrespectful and completely off the mark if you're truly trying to make a point. You'll make more enemies than friends. </p><p> </p><p>By the way, the international signal of a country in distress is to hang its flag upside down. That just seems more logical to me. </p>
<p>Has there even been a flag burning lately? I haven't read any stories about that in a long time.</p><p>And GVAC, allowing people to burn the flag is essentially allowing them to dig their own grave. It is an indefensible act as you said, incredibly disrespectful, and even the harshest critics of this country (in this country) wouldn't do it or approve. IMO, its more of a desperate attempt at getting attention more than anything. But still, stupid speech still needs to be protected.<br /></p>
Bulldogcakes
06-26-2006, 02:26 PM
Nobody's cared about this for the last 10 years. If this is a high enough priority to be up for a vote, then this party is bankrupt of ideas. <br />
PapaBear
06-26-2006, 02:27 PM
[QUOTE]It looks like conservatives are trying to <strike>get the flag burning amendment passed</strike> divert attention from actual important issues again.[QUOTE]
reeshy
06-26-2006, 02:31 PM
<p>Sure, burning a flag is going to solve all of our problems...if that was the case...count me in. </p><p>Jeff, you blame everything on the conservatives but think about if the "Liberals" were in charge...unrestricted immigration, taxation until you bled white, corrosion of our rights until we would be afraid to come out of our homes(if we still owned homes)</p><p>Stop blaming others and start thinking of solutions....it's easy pointing a finger but a little harder to shut up and do some hard work to make things better!!!! </p>
It's a piece of fabric. The whole point of burning a flag is to get those who would be upset by such an act to think about the motivitations behind it. <br />
Sheeplovr
06-26-2006, 02:35 PM
on gay pride week no less
reeshy
06-26-2006, 02:37 PM
Happy Gay Pride Week, Sheepy!!!!!!<br />
<strong>ADF</strong> wrote:<br />It's a piece of fabric. The whole point of burning a flag is to get those who would be upset by such an act to think about the motivitations behind it. <br /><p> </p><p>And the cross to a Christian is just a piece of wood? Come on, ADF. You're smarter than that. Symbols are incredibly powerful in all cultures. </p><p>You can't even show a picture of Mohammed in Muslim nations. Imagine burning one? </p><p>I'm not saying we're as intolerant as those animals, but you can't say the American Flag is just a piece of fabric. </p><br />
Bulldogcakes
06-26-2006, 02:44 PM
<p> </p><strong>Sheeplovr</strong> wrote:<br />on gay pride week no less<p> </p><p>This is why we all love Sheepy. </p><blockquote /><p> </p>
FMJeff
06-26-2006, 02:44 PM
<strong>reeshy</strong> wrote:<br /><p>Sure, burning a flag is going to solve all of our problems...if that was the case...count me in. </p><p>Jeff, you blame everything on the conservatives but think about if the "Liberals" were in charge...unrestricted immigration, taxation until you bled white, corrosion of our rights until we would be afraid to come out of our homes(if we still owned homes)</p><p>Stop blaming others and start thinking of solutions....it's easy pointing a finger but a little harder to shut up and do some hard work to make things better!!!! </p><p>I'm not blaming others...i'm blaming conservatives in power...my point is why are you wasting time on this non-issue when you can be talking about THINGS THAT MATTER...</p><p>And enough with the shutup and do something about it...I called my representatives in Congress. Short of running for office myself I don't know what else I can do about Congressional debate waste...</p><p>I don't think my campaign will go very far when my porno company coldfusion job comes out...</p>
CuzBum
06-26-2006, 02:47 PM
<p>For Simpson fans . . .</p><p>I'm an amendment-to-be, yes an amendment-to-be, <br />And I'm hoping that they'll ratify me. <br /><br />There's a lot of flag-burners, <br />Who have got too much freedom, <br />I want to make it legal <br />For policemen to beat'em. <br /><br />'Cause there's limits to our liberties, <br />At least I hope and pray that there are, <br />'Cause those liberal freaks go too far.</p>
reeshy
06-26-2006, 03:04 PM
<strong>FMJeff</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>reeshy</strong> wrote:<br /><p>Sure, burning a flag is going to solve all of our problems...if that was the case...count me in. </p><p>Jeff, you blame everything on the conservatives but think about if the "Liberals" were in charge...unrestricted immigration, taxation until you bled white, corrosion of our rights until we would be afraid to come out of our homes(if we still owned homes)</p><p>Stop blaming others and start thinking of solutions....it's easy pointing a finger but a little harder to shut up and do some hard work to make things better!!!! </p><p>I'm not blaming others...i'm blaming conservatives in power...my point is why are you wasting time on this non-issue when you can be talking about THINGS THAT MATTER...</p><p>And enough with the shutup and do something about it...I called my representatives in Congress. Short of running for office myself I don't know what else I can do about Congressional debate waste...</p><p>I don't think my campaign will go very far when my porno company coldfusion job comes out...</p><p>Jeff, excuse me.....I didn't bring this issue up....I thought you did!!!</p><p>You're telling me that I am wasting my time on this "non-issue"....I never stated my views on flag burning!!</p><p>It's commendable that you are writing your representatives in Washington...more people should do so rather than bellyache on a bulletin board that really carries no weight in Washington....keep up the good work...I certainly don't agree with your politics but I commend you on your insistence in practicing the ideals of our great country...keep up the good work, Jeff!!!!!</p><p> </p><p>P.S.....but you're still a commie liberal!!!!!!!</p>
<p>Personally I would never burn a flag as I find the act repulsive, but I think it should be a legal right to burn it. Not a right that I would use or want to see used, but a right nonetheless.</p><p>Let me put it this way, our flag is a symbol. A great symbol of depth, but a symbol regardless. And I truly worry about the state of our democracy if our country is somehow "damaged" by some nutbar burning a flag. </p><p>On an existentential level, shouldn't the values of this nation be so strong the burning of a flag is seen as a sign of how free we truly are? </p>
Tenbatsuzen
06-26-2006, 04:04 PM
<p> </p><strong>Bulldogcakes</strong> wrote:<br /><p> </p><strong>Sheeplovr</strong> wrote:<br />on gay pride week no less<p> </p><p>This is why we all love Sheepy. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Well....</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote />
Death Metal Moe
06-26-2006, 04:06 PM
I say pass the Amendment, then burn it.
angrymissy
06-26-2006, 04:21 PM
<p>Jeff, you blame everything on the conservatives but think about if the "Liberals" were in charge...unrestricted immigration, taxation until you bled white, corrosion of our rights until we would be afraid to come out of our homes(if we still owned homes)</p><p>ummmm, that sounds like the republicans to me (especially the immigration issue)</p>
reeshy
06-26-2006, 04:24 PM
<strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br /><p> </p>Jeff, you blame everything on the conservatives but think about if the "Liberals" were in charge...unrestricted immigration, taxation until you bled white, corrosion of our rights until we would be afraid to come out of our homes(if we still owned homes) <p> </p><p>ummmm, that sounds like the republicans to me (especially the immigration issue)</p><p>You better start reading what individual democrats are saying!!!!!!</p>
Sheeplovr
06-26-2006, 04:43 PM
<p><span class="postbody">but think about if the "Liberals" were in charge</span></p><p>I rememebr the 90s</p><p>it was so friggen great</p><p>oh wait it wsnt liberals it was left leaning conservitives who loved bjs </p>
reeshy
06-26-2006, 04:48 PM
Who??? Clinton?????<br />
furie
06-26-2006, 04:51 PM
<strong>HBox</strong> wrote:<br>Freedom of speech and expression doesn't exist to protect popular opinions.<br /><p></p>
I agree.
I get upset if the flag gets soiled and it really burns me when I see dirty or tattered flags.
I abhor burning of the American flag and despise those who do it, especially if it is an American. But it is an American's right to do so; though I can think of far better ways of getting the point across.
FMJeff
06-26-2006, 05:06 PM
<strong>furie</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>HBox</strong> wrote:<br /><font color="#000080"><font size="2">Freedom of speech and expression doesn't exist to protect popular opinions.</font></font><br /><p> </p>I agree. I get upset if the flag gets soiled and it really burns me when I see dirty or tattered flags. I abhor burning of the American flag and despise those who do it, especially if it is an American. But it is an American's right to do so; though I can think of far better ways of getting the point across. <p>Well that's the point isn't it? In one act, you send a clear message of dissent, of distaste with the american government. </p><p>I'll put it to you this way, if the message wasn't so powerful, why ban it? What are they afraid of? </p><p>The same people who champion liberty and anti-flag burning are the same who don't recognize gays and lesbians as human beings with rights. Explain that one to me. </p><p>I strongly believe they think gays and lesbians are suffering from some kind of cureable disease or something. </p><p>Conservatives are basically saying "you can't do anything we don't approve of." Well, that's not how america works. It just doesn't. </p><p>There are rights and there are rights. </p>
furie
06-26-2006, 05:19 PM
..
<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by furie on 6-26-06 @ 9:22 PM</span>
furie
06-26-2006, 05:22 PM
Well that's the point isn't it? In one act, you send a clear message of dissent, of distaste with the american government.
it's not fear it's disgust.
the flag doesn't represent the us government, it represents the country, all of us. if you want to show dissatisfaction with the government burn a Effigy of the person or persons who are actually offending. burning the flag brings me into the issue.
The same people who champion liberty and anti-flag burning are the same who don't recognize gays and lesbians as human beings with rights. Explain that one to me. </p><p>I strongly believe they think gays and lesbians are suffering from some kind of cureable disease or something.
Hi issue-mixing-man, nice to meet you...
reeshy
06-26-2006, 05:28 PM
<span class="postbody"><p>The same people who champion liberty and anti-flag burning are the same who don't recognize gays and lesbians as human beings with rights. Explain that one to me. </p><p>I strongly believe they think gays and lesbians are suffering from some kind of cureable disease or something. </p><p> </p><p>Let me see if I have this right.....if you're anti- flag burning...you're automatically anti-gay!!!!!</p><p>Correct me if I'm wrong if this is not what you are saying!!!!!</p></span>
Bulldogcakes
06-26-2006, 05:37 PM
<p> </p><strong>Death Metal Moe</strong> wrote:<br />I say pass the Amendment, then burn it.<p> </p><p>How about we keep the amendment and burn the Congressmen? </p><blockquote /><p> </p>
<strong>FMJeff</strong> wrote: <p>The same people who champion liberty and anti-flag burning are the same who don't recognize gays and lesbians as human beings with rights. </p><p>That is the most idiotic, predjudiced, narrow-minded bunch of junk I have ever heard. For you to judge someone wholly as such makes you no different than the bigots that ruled the South for so long. How can you make such a blanket statement? You ought to learn how to think for yourself instead of just regurgitating the inflammatory rhetoric of the Far Left. And the Far Right needs to fuckin chill out too. But for the record I am against flag burning. I am also against people wearing as a cape and other shit that I have seen. I guess I should call all my Gay and Lesbian friends and tell them I don't acknowledge thier rights as humans? That's what your saying right? FMJeff I got no beef with you, but you slap your self-rightious paintbrush around with pretty broad strokes.</p>
<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by Ogre on 6-26-06 @ 10:16 PM</span>
Yerdaddy
06-27-2006, 02:36 AM
<p>You can't even show a picture of Mohammed in Muslim nations. Imagine burning one? </p><p>I'm not saying we're as intolerant as those animals</p><p>This is actually so bad it's too fucking funny for me to even complain about it. If you list the values that America stands for again I'll piss my skirt.</p>
<p>Perhaps you're not as frighteningly enlightened as you like to believe and need to improve your reading comprehension. </p><p> </p>
Yerdaddy
06-27-2006, 03:05 AM
<p>OK, so enlighten me. </p><p>I'm not saying we're as <strong>intolerant</strong> as those <strong>animals</strong></p><p>What did I miss?</p>
<p>We don't need to tinker with the constitution over something like this. Make it a federal law instead.</p>
DJEvelEd
06-27-2006, 04:37 AM
<p>Is it OK to burn a flag with 49 stars?</p><p>How about 33 stars and 11 stripes?</p><p>How about 55 stars and 14 stripes?</p><p>How about a reasonable faxcimile of a flag?</p><p>What if it's a picture of a picture of a flag written in crayon?</p><p>How about a black & white flag?</p><p>Will all these issues be addressed? Where is the line on THIS one? I'm just curious</p>
Jujubees2
06-27-2006, 06:05 AM
<strong>reeshy</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br /><p> </p>Jeff, you blame everything on the conservatives but think about if the "Liberals" were in charge...unrestricted immigration, taxation until you bled white, corrosion of our rights until we would be afraid to come out of our homes(if we still owned homes) <p> </p><p>ummmm, that sounds like the republicans to me (especially the immigration issue)</p><p>You better start reading what individual democrats are saying!!!!!!</p><p>No Reeshy, you should start <strong><u>seeing</u></strong> what the Republicans are doing. Corrosion of our rights? How about unwarrented wiretapping, searching our bank records, wanting to make libraries turnover our reading lists. That's a corrosion of our rights if I've ever seen one!</p>
Jujubees2
06-27-2006, 06:11 AM
<strong>Gvac</strong> wrote:<br /><p>I have a different take on what the flag represents, and that's why it bothers me so much to see people burning and desecrating it. </p><p>To me, the flag of the United States of America represents the ideals and beliefs upon which this nation was founded. it does <em><strong>not</strong></em> represent the President or the administration that happens to be in power at any particular time. It's the symbol of The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and The Bill Of Rights, as well as being a symbol of the love and passion Americans have had for those ideals through the years. Enough to die for them. </p><p>I'd rather see people burning Bush or Cheney in effigy rather than the flag. Burning the flag means you're against the principles of America, freedom of speech being one of them. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>GVAC, how do you feel about stores who display the flag for holiday sales? Or how about a sports team who wears the flag on their uniforms? Or how about someone who writes on a flag (yes, that's our fearful leader)?</p><p><img height="306" src="http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/bushflag.jpg" width="410" border="0" /></p><p>According to United States Code Title 1 Cahmpter 4 - The Flag (<a href="http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html">http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html</a>) all are against the flag code.</p><p>And did you know there are only three countries who have laws against flag burning? Cuba, China and I think Iran. Boy, we would be in some pretty good company there.</p><p>Please, our so-called leaders need to start attacking real problems instead of gay marriage and flag burning.</p>
reeshy
06-27-2006, 06:17 AM
I see that most people on this thread support the right to burn the flag(my own views have not been revealed)....my question is.....is it because you feel that it is an expression of your rights or (I have a feeling there are a few of these) just because you feel like it?<br />
Jujubees2
06-27-2006, 06:28 AM
<strong>reeshy</strong> wrote:<br />I see that most people on this thread support the right to burn the flag(my own views have not been revealed)....my question is.....is it because you feel that it is an expression of your rights or (I have a feeling there are a few of these) just because you feel like it?<br /><p>Definately an expression of our rights. I don't think that I would ever burn a flag but I don't want to prevent someone else from exercising their right to do so.</p>
FUNKMAN
06-27-2006, 06:31 AM
but god forbid you rip the label off your mattress
DJEvelEd
06-27-2006, 06:50 AM
<p>Someone please define "American flag" for me.</p><p> </p><p><img height="175" src="http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/faq6.gif" width="278" border="0" /></p><p> </p><p><img height="86" src="http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/faq8.jpg" width="119" border="0" /></p><p><span class="post_edited">This is a joke right? These things NEED to be destroyed!!!</span> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>
<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by DJEvelEd on 6-27-06 @ 10:55 AM</span>
FMJeff
06-27-2006, 06:53 AM
<strong>Ogre</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>FMJeff</strong> wrote: <p>The same people who champion liberty and anti-flag burning are the same who don't recognize gays and lesbians as human beings with rights. </p><p>That is the most idiotic, predjudiced, narrow-minded bunch of junk I have ever heard. For you to judge someone wholly as such makes you no different than the bigots that ruled the South for so long. How can you make such a blanket statement? You ought to learn how to think for yourself instead of just regurgitating the inflammatory rhetoric of the Far Left. And the Far Right needs to fuckin chill out too. But for the record I am against flag burning. I am also against people wearing as a cape and other shit that I have seen. I guess I should call all my Gay and Lesbian friends and tell them I don't acknowledge thier rights as humans? That's what your saying right? FMJeff I got no beef with you, but you slap your self-rightious paintbrush around with pretty broad strokes.</p><span class="post_edited">This message was edited by Ogre on 6-26-06 @ 10:16 PM</span> <p>Yup. </p><p>And i meant in Congress. Not the general public. </p><p>Match up the list of senators who supported the marraige ban with the list of those who support the anti-flag burning ammendment. You'll find some staggering similiarities. </p>
<p> </p><strong>Gvac</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>ADF</strong> wrote:<br />It's a piece of fabric. The whole point of burning a flag is to get those who would be upset by such an act to think about the motivitations behind it. <br /><p> </p><p>And the cross to a Christian is just a piece of wood? Come on, ADF. You're smarter than that. Symbols are incredibly powerful in all cultures. </p><p>You can't even show a picture of Mohammed in Muslim nations. Imagine burning one? </p><p>I'm not saying we're as intolerant as those animals, but you can't say the American Flag is just a piece of fabric. </p><br /><p> </p><p> </p><p>I'm saying that the world would be a better place if people didn't get so hung up symbols and concentrated more on their fellow human beings and how they are faring. The flag is a piece of fabric. The United States is just the place I happen to live. For numerous reasons, mostly economic, I'm glad that I live here, but what makes a country great is the people who live in it and right now I can't say that the United States is even slightly better than any other country in the world. </p>
Furtherman
06-27-2006, 07:00 AM
<strong>ADF</strong> wrote:<br /><p>I'm saying that the world would be a better place if people didn't get so hung up symbols and concentrated more on their fellow human beings and how they are faring. </p><p> </p><p>Well said. A symbol no more validates who I am as as individual than the type of shoes I wear.</p><p>Flags, crosses, mascots, or little alligators on your shirt... doesn't really matter in the big picture. Those things will come and go. Human compassion and/or ignorance is what we have to go after and embrace or change.</p>
Jujubees2
06-27-2006, 07:07 AM
<strong>ADF</strong> wrote:<br /><p> </p><strong>Gvac</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>ADF</strong> wrote:<br />It's a piece of fabric. The whole point of burning a flag is to get those who would be upset by such an act to think about the motivitations behind it. <br /><p> </p><p>And the cross to a Christian is just a piece of wood? Come on, ADF. You're smarter than that. Symbols are incredibly powerful in all cultures. </p><p>You can't even show a picture of Mohammed in Muslim nations. Imagine burning one? </p><p>I'm not saying we're as intolerant as those animals, but you can't say the American Flag is just a piece of fabric. </p><br /><p> </p><p> </p><p>I'm saying that the world would be a better place if people didn't get so hung up symbols and concentrated more on their fellow human beings and how they are faring. The flag is a piece of fabric. The United States is just the place I happen to live. For numerous reasons, mostly economic, I'm glad that I live here, but what makes a country great is the people who live in it and right now I can't say that the United States is even slightly better than any other country in the world. </p><p>Amen ADF, to quote Thomas Paine "The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."</p>
EliSnow
06-27-2006, 07:09 AM
<strong>A.J.</strong> wrote:<br /><p>We don't need to tinker with the constitution over something like this. Make it a federal law instead.</p><p><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="3">Can't. Such a law would be unconsitutational. The only way to prohibit flag burning is with a constitutional amendment:</font></p><blockquote dir="ltr" style="margin-right: 0px"><p>Today, defacing a flag is an act of protected speech under the <a title="First Amendment to the United States Constitution" href="http://www.ronfez.net/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution">First Amendment to the United States Constitution</a>, as established in <em><a title="Texas v. Johnson" href="http://www.ronfez.net/wiki/Texas_v._Johnson">Texas v. Johnson</a></em>, <a title="Case citation" href="http://www.ronfez.net/wiki/Case_citation">491 U.S. 397</a> (<a title="1989" href="http://www.ronfez.net/wiki/1989">1989</a>), and reaffirmed in <em><a title="United States v. Eichman" href="http://www.ronfez.net/wiki/United_States_v._Eichman">U.S. v. Eichman</a></em>, <em><a title="Case citation" href="http://www.ronfez.net/wiki/Case_citation">496 U.S. 310</a> (<a title="1990" href="http://www.ronfez.net/wiki/1990">1990</a>)</em>.</p>[/quote]<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_burning">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_burning</a></p>
<p>Thank God someone else chose to look it up. <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></p>
Hagar
06-27-2006, 09:29 AM
<p>"respect" is foreign to too many citizens. Amend.</p><p><img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/bobogolem/hagar.jpg" border="0" /></p>
<p><strong>FMJeff wrote:</strong></p><p>Yup. </p><p>And i meant in Congress. Not the general public. </p><p>Match up the list of senators who supported the marraige ban with the list of those who support the anti-flag burning ammendment. You'll find some staggering similiarities. </p><p>I must admit you are a man of conviction and you mean what you say. While I probably will never see this issue the same as you, this is what makes the country work. Everyone's views and opinions have merit. You have just as much right to torch the Flag as I do try and protect what it means to me. After I reread my post I felt like maybe I was the one acting self-rightious. Flag waving is not to be confused with Patriotism, that I will concede. As for the AssMonkeys that are occupying our Congress, I have no defense. I just am turned off by the fact that people get pigeonholed into one group or another. I guess what I am trying to say, is that I stand for many things, including all US Citizens being treated fairly under our Constitution. However, when I see someone wiping thier ass with the Flag, I wish to clobber that person. The Irony of the whole issue is that I served to protect the Flag and all it represents, to include the rights of individual expression. Just remember if it was not for the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines that serve thier country, you might not have "a piece of fabric" to desecrate. Catch 22. Stalemate. I relent.</p>
<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by Ogre on 6-27-06 @ 4:00 PM</span>
furie
06-27-2006, 12:43 PM
is it because you feel that it is an expression of your rights
yes
EliSnow
06-27-2006, 12:50 PM
<strong>Ogre</strong> wrote:<br /><p><strong>FMJeff wrote:</strong></p><p>Yup. </p><p>And i meant in Congress. Not the general public. </p><p>Match up the list of senators who supported the marraige ban with the list of those who support the anti-flag burning ammendment. You'll find some staggering similiarities. </p><p>I must admit you are a man of conviction and you mean what you say. While I probably will never see this issue the same as you, this is what makes the country work. Everyone's views and opinions have merit. You have just as much right to torch the Flag as I do try and protect what it means to me. After I reread my post I felt like maybe I was the one acting self-rightious. Flag waving is not to be confused with Patriotism, that I will concede. As for the AssMonkeys that are occupying our Congress, I have no defense. I just am turned off by the fact that people get pigeonholed into one group or another. I guess what I am trying to say, is that I stand for many things, including all US Citizens being treated fairly under our Constitution. However, when I see someone wiping thier ass with the Flag, I wish to clobber that person. The Irony of the whole issue is that I served to protect the Flag and all it represents, to include the rights of individual expression. Just remember if it was not for the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines that serve thier country, you might not have "a piece of fabric" to desecrate. Catch 22. Stalemate. I relent.</p><span class="post_edited">This message was edited by Ogre on 6-27-06 @ 4:00 PM</span> <p><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="3">I think this ultimately gets to the point behind people opposing this amendment. I agree that burning a flag shows a lack of respect and is abhorrent, but you can't legislate respect and/or manners. </font></p><p><font face="Arial" size="3">I find Ann Coultier's statements about the 9/11 widows as disrepectful, and I'd love to clobber her, but should we pass a law forbidding her from saying it because it was disrespectful? </font></p>
Jujubees2
06-27-2006, 03:15 PM
<span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: black; font-family: verdana">It was a close one but the Amendment failed by one vote in the Senate. <p> </p></span><p><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: black; font-family: verdana">Ironically, lookie who sponsored the bill in Congress. Yep, Randy "Duke" Cunningham. he was worried about people disrespecting the country by burning a piece of cloth but not worried about disrespecting the country by lining his pockets with bribes. What an ass!</span></p>
PapaBear
06-27-2006, 04:07 PM
<p>Whenever an amendment to the Constitution is proposed, Congress should be encouraged to take a look at the existing amendments. There isn't one single existing amendment that restricts any right of any individual. An amendment to ban flag burning (or ban on ANYTHING, for that matter) would be the only such amendment.</p><p>There was one other that banned something, and that was the ban on the manufacture sale or transportation of alcohol, but that one was repealed in 1933. </p><p>The purpose of the Constitution is not to limit the rights of Citizens.</p><p>That said, I think burning the flag is stupid. As stupid as it is, a Constitutional ban is just as stupid as burning the flag.</p>
I hate seeing people burn the flag with every fiber in my being. In fact, fuck everybody who does it. But this amendment is stupid. <br><p>
The way the law is now, flag burning is protected as symbolic speech. So is burning a cross (as long as it's not done in someone's front yard, because that's a threat). Are both immensely retarded? Yes. Do I loathe everybody who does either? Yes. Do I believe they have the right to do it? Absolutely. <br><p>
I firmly believe that such events are blessings in disguise because they actually prompt more speech, which I think is what is needed generally about such issues.
<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by narc on 6-27-06 @ 8:22 PM</span>
reeshy
06-27-2006, 05:13 PM
<p> </p><p>God bless America, land that I love <br />Stand beside her and guide her <br />Through the night with the light from above <br />From the mountains To the prairies, <br />To the ocean white with foam <br />God bless America, My home sweet home.</p>
high fly
06-28-2006, 11:08 AM
<p><font size="2">This dumbass ammendment is simply another right wing "wedge issue" which they employ every time they look bad on a substantive issue.</font></p><p><font size="2">Right now, with the Deciderator's poll numbers at Watergate-era Nixon levels, they are doing all they can to restore first the portion of their base they have lost and to divide the public in wartime. </font></p><p><font size="2"> </font></p><p><font size="2" /></p><p><font size="2">Had this ammendment passed, we would have seen a dramatic increase in flag burning.</font></p><p> </p>
EliSnow
06-28-2006, 11:16 AM
<strong>high fly</strong> wrote:<br /><p><font size="2">This dumbass ammendment is simply another right wing "wedge issue" which they employ every time they look bad on a substantive issue.</font></p><p><font size="2">Right now, with the Deciderator's poll numbers at Watergate-era Nixon levels, they are doing all they can to restore first the portion of their base they have lost and to divide the public in wartime. </font></p><p><font size="2"> </font></p><font size="2" /><font size="2"><p><font size="2">Had this ammendment passed, we would have seen a dramatic increase in flag burning.</font></p><p> </p><p><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="3">Partially, but I think the real purpose is to set up this issue as a "voter issue" for the upcoming congressional elections. Rather than face the bad issues, as you point out, they'll rely upon the "family, U.S. values" issues such as this issue and the recent proposed amendment on marriage. They'll target anyone who voted against these amendments as being "anti-American" and "anti-family."</font></p></font>
KennethC
06-28-2006, 12:02 PM
<p>I think we're all in agreement that this is a cynical (and cyclical) election year ploy. The first time I remember this coming up was in 1988 when big Mike Dukakis was leading Bush I in the polls. Karl Rove's mentor Lee Atwater smelled demagogue gold, so George donned his finest blue denim work shirt and did a little stumping/photo ops at flag factories and misconstrued Dukakis' civil liberties defense as anti-American. Long story short, the rubes bought it.</p><p>My biggest problem is that flag burning is not some kind of epidemic. I've never seen anyone burn a flag and I've never known anyone who has seen anyone burn a flag. I've lived most of my life as a leftist in two hot-beds of radical activity, Portland and Eugene. I can only think of one instance of flag burning in this city during the protests at the onset of the war in Iraq. The perps were fringey rabble-rousing kids who no one could take seriously. They deserved to be goofed on, even shunned, but not arrested. Criminalizing their activity would have transformed them from pimply douches to pimply martyrs.</p>
phixion
06-28-2006, 12:19 PM
to quote jefferson who was quoting voltaire during the consitutional convention "i may not agree with what u say but i would die so that u may say it" and jefferson was an asshole
UnknownPD
06-28-2006, 01:37 PM
<p><font size="2">It's been fun to watch the same people who are against the flag burning ammendment fall all over themselves to get the "hate speech" of the homeless guy in Vermont quieted. I guess its only free speech when you agree.</font></p>
<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by UnknownPD on 6-28-06 @ 7:08 PM</span>
<p> </p><strong>UnknownPD</strong> wrote:<br /><p><font size="2">It's been fun to watch the same people who are against the flag burning ammendment fall all over themselves to get the "hate speech" of the homeless guy in Vermont quieted. I guess its only free speech when you agree.</font></p><p><font size="2">...</font><font size="1">and for you guys railing against conservatives and liberals. They're just both sides of the same coin. both believe firmly in their principles and both are completely fucked up...</font></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.<br /></p>
<strong>KennethC</strong> wrote:<br /><p>I think we're all in agreement that this is a cynical (and cyclical) election year ploy. The first time I remember this coming up was in 1988 when <strong>big Mike Dukakis</strong> was leading Bush I in the polls. Karl Rove's mentor Lee Atwater smelled demagogue gold, so George donned his finest blue denim work shirt and did a little stumping/photo ops at flag factories and misconstrued Dukakis' civil liberties defense as anti-American. Long story short, the rubes bought it. </p><p> </p><p><img height="265" src="http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0309/images/life/dukakis.jpg" width="404" border="0" /></p><p>Big Mike and The Hunter, Gatherer, Bringing em to Justice Guy</p><p><img height="247" src="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/05/images/20030501-15_lincoln11-515h.jpg" width="405" border="0" /></p><p>Knowing is half the battle.</p>
KennethC
06-28-2006, 02:12 PM
<strong>Ogre</strong> wrote: <p><img height="265" src="http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0309/images/life/dukakis.jpg" width="404" border="0" /></p><p>Big Mike and The Hunter, Gatherer, Bringing em to Justice Guy</p><p> </p><p>That picture is classic. Mike's photo op at General Dynamics backfired big time. His image was being uncomfortable in a military environment and soft on defense - the photo just made him look ridiculous. What most people forget is that Dukakis actually served in the Army, unlike most of his hawkish critics (though Bush Sr. was obviously a genuine war hero).</p>
Dukakis was the worst. I don't know how any Dems could have possibly thought he would ever have a chance at winning the Presidency.<br><p>I hate to say it, but I think from here on out, southern and midwestern Democrats will have a huge advantage in Presidential races over democrats from the Northeast.
UnknownPD
06-28-2006, 03:02 PM
<p><font color="#000080" size="2">I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about</font></p><p>Neither do I</p>
high fly
06-28-2006, 03:15 PM
<p><font size="2">The Texas Einstein & Co., just as they have tried to hijack Christianity, are once again trying to hijack patriotism.</font></p><p><font size="2">Already, Rushton "Droopy" Limbaugh is saying those who voted against the ammendment "support" flag-burning.</font></p><p><font size="2" /></p><p><font size="2">This is a solution to a non-existent problem.</font></p><p><font size="2" /></p><p><font size="2">Note the way the right-wingers never seem to want to <em>expand</em> our liberties, but try like hell to limit them in any way possible.</font></p><p><font size="2" /></p>
high fly
06-28-2006, 03:16 PM
<strong>narc</strong> wrote:<br />Dukakis was the worst. I don't know how any Dems could have possibly thought he would ever have a chance at winning the Presidency.<br /><p>. </p><p> </p><p><font size="2">A fixation formed once the Dems found out his name means "two cocks" in Latin...</font></p><p><font size="2" /></p>
KennethC
06-28-2006, 03:45 PM
<strong>narc</strong> wrote:<br />Dukakis was the worst. I don't know how any Dems could have possibly thought he would ever have a chance at winning the Presidency.<br /><p>I hate to say it, but I think from here on out, southern and midwestern Democrats will have a huge advantage in Presidential races over democrats from the Northeast. </p><p>The Democratic pickings were mighty slim in 1988. Gary Hart was the frontrunner, but was derailed by a sex scandal, Joe Biden has his plagarism scandal, Al Gore was inexperienced and Jesse Jackson scared white people. All that was left was Dukakis, the Adlai Stevenson of the '80s.</p><p>I think you're right about Northeastern Dems, but I also don't see any Northeasterner from either party ever winning the White House again. </p>
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