Am I being a homophobe? [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

Judge Smails

08-02-2006, 12:49 PM

Let me start off by stating that I'm well aware that just because you're gay doesn't make you a pedophile.  Also, I'm ordinarily pro gay rights and gay marriage and in general do not have a problem with gays.  I've often gotten into heated discussions with members of my own family who's views towards gays are really bigotted.  That all being said, I guess my liberal views don't appply when it comes to my kids.Every first week of August my kids attend bible school at our church (my daughter's 5 and my son's 8).  This year they have some high school age kids helping out.  One kid, who's about 16 or 17, and I'll describe as looking "FABULOUS!" gives me the heebie jeebies.  He's always singing to himself, walking around in an (OK I'll say it) prancing manner and telling anyone who'll listen how he was to be an actor and dancer.My wife told me the other day she saw him lift one of the four year old boys shirts and was giving him a prolonged rasberry on the belly.  Today was my day to pick them up and I saw him taking pictures of only the boys with his cell phone.  I told the lady who runs the program that some parents might not find it appropriate to have their kids photographed, but she pish poshed it.I'm even considering pulling my kids out of the program.  My wife is a little less uncomfortable and worried about how it will look to the rest of the congregation.  She says that afterall there's only two days left.  What do you think?  Am I over-reacting here?  Should I talk to the kid myself, or would that be even more out of line?  In truth I haven't seen him interact with my kids and I've been asking them if he's done anything "strange", but at the same time I don't want to freak them out.

Furtherman

08-02-2006, 12:59 PM

judge_smails wrote: One kid, who's about 16 or 17, and I'll describe as looking "FABULOUS!" gives me the heebie jeebies.  He's always singing to himself, walking around in an (OK I'll say it) prancing manner and telling anyone who'll listen how he was to be an actor and dancer.My wife told me the other day she saw him lift one of the four year old boys shirts and was giving him a prolonged rasberry on the belly.  Today was my day to pick them up and I saw him taking pictures of only the boys with his cell phone.  Run.  A 17 year old giving a rasberry to a four year old that is not related to him is wrong.He's obviously a flam, maybe a good-hearted one, but he looks to be headed in an uncomfortable direction.

SinA

08-02-2006, 01:06 PM

get the fuck out of there.  this is your children you're talking about. chances are nothing bad would happen and it's being overprotective, but bad things DO happen from time to time, and you'll never forgive yourself if you find out later that it did.i

AKA

08-02-2006, 01:10 PM

Most gay peds that you see in the news tend to be more of the "closet case" types. A 17 year old that's comfortable with both his sexuality and his religion more than likely is not a threat to children - odds are, if this boy is volunteering the church school, he feels strongly and securely enough because of his relationship with the church - odds are, he was a kid there himself, and sees this as helping out one last time before going to college or whatever. He more than likely knows the families of the other kids, and vice versa, and was overly familiar because he honestly doesn't see it as an issue - that, more than anything, is simply being a 17 year old kid. Hopefully when he gets older he will be able to see himself through other eyes and realize that not everone will be cool with certain things.I don't know.I feel more creeped out by the little league coaches giving the boys reassuring pats than I do a kid doing the things you described. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be concerned if my kid was in there, but I would still think the John Stossels and Dateline NBCs of the world have done more in terrorizing parents of dangers facing kids today than really looking into realistic issues and causes and solutions etc.

Furtherman

08-02-2006, 01:14 PM

AKA wrote: I feel more creeped out by the little league coaches giving the boys reassuring pats than I do a kid doing the things you described.  My coach never kissed my belly when I made a good play.   If he had, I'd probably be one hell of a ball player.

Tenbatsuzen

08-02-2006, 01:20 PM

Get your kid out of there now. First off, he's inappropriately touching your child. If you told the person in charge and she disregarded it, rather than mediating the situation, GET OUT. Also, there is absolutely no reason why he is taking pictures on his own personal cell phone.  The children are unrelated to him and he's not going to see them again after this summer. Coming from a person who researches true crime, these are two HUGE red flags.  It's not a question of homophobia, it's the fact that he is acting INCREDIBLY Inapprorpriate around your children.  Better safe than sorry, if you want to feel comfortable. 

This message was edited by Tenbatsuzen on 8-2-06 @ 5:22 PM

Tenbatsuzen

08-02-2006, 01:23 PM

I reiterate: the cell phone picture taking is a HUGE HUGE HUGE redflag.  If he was using the church's camera or a disposable camera, maybe it's kosher, but a cell phone picture isn't easily shared and usually reserved for personal use because of the quality.

ChimneyFish

08-02-2006, 01:34 PM

Tenbatsuzen wrote: Get your kid out of there now. First off, he's inappropriately touching your child. If you told the person in charge and she disregarded it, rather than mediating the situation, GET OUT. Plus, it's church. What did the Catholic church do when they were confronted with pedophilia????"The Pope, the Pope, the Pope is on fiahhhh!!!!"

OGC

08-02-2006, 02:43 PM

Tenbatsuzen wrote: Get your kid out of there now. .... Better safe than sorry, if you want to feel comfortable.    Yup, if it were my kids I would have them out of there immediately and I would make sure I spoke to someone in charge about why I was removing them. That way they know that if something does happen in the future, they would not be able to use the old cop out of "we had no idea what was going on"

Tenbatsuzen

08-02-2006, 02:53 PM

AKA wrote: Most gay peds that you see in the news tend to be more of the "closet case" types. A 17 year old that's comfortable with both his sexuality and his religion more than likely is not a threat to children - odds are, if this boy is volunteering the church school, he feels strongly and securely enough because of his relationship with the church - odds are, he was a kid there himself, and sees this as helping out one last time before going to college or whatever. He more than likely knows the families of the other kids, and vice versa, and was overly familiar because he honestly doesn't see it as an issue - that, more than anything, is simply being a 17 year old kid. Hopefully when he gets older he will be able to see himself through other eyes and realize that not everone will be cool with certain things.I don't know.I feel more creeped out by the little league coaches giving the boys reassuring pats than I do a kid doing the things you described. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be concerned if my kid was in there, but I would still think the John Stossels and Dateline NBCs of the world have done more in terrorizing parents of dangers facing kids today than really looking into realistic issues and causes and solutions etc.    Fine.  Explain the cell phone pics then.

Jujubees2

08-02-2006, 02:57 PM

Tenbatsuzen wrote:  AKA wrote: Most gay peds that you see in the news tend to be more of the "closet case" types. A 17 year old that's comfortable with both his sexuality and his religion more than likely is not a threat to children - odds are, if this boy is volunteering the church school, he feels strongly and securely enough because of his relationship with the church - odds are, he was a kid there himself, and sees this as helping out one last time before going to college or whatever. He more than likely knows the families of the other kids, and vice versa, and was overly familiar because he honestly doesn't see it as an issue - that, more than anything, is simply being a 17 year old kid. Hopefully when he gets older he will be able to see himself through other eyes and realize that not everone will be cool with certain things.I don't know.I feel more creeped out by the little league coaches giving the boys reassuring pats than I do a kid doing the things you described. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be concerned if my kid was in there, but I would still think the John Stossels and Dateline NBCs of the world have done more in terrorizing parents of dangers facing kids today than really looking into realistic issues and causes and solutions etc.    Fine.  Explain the cell phone pics then. Maybe I just liked some of the kids at the school (who just all happened to be boys) and I don't want to have to rely on a mental picture when I... oops, never mind.

This message was edited by Jujubees2 on 8-2-06 @ 6:57 PM

HBox

08-02-2006, 02:59 PM

My wife told me the other day she saw him lift
one of the four year old boys shirts and was giving him a prolonged
rasberry on the belly.<img width="512" height="382" border="0" src="http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/4973/5b4194e80fa2482890273b736496f06fmw6.jpg" />Is his name Vladimir?I think you might be over-reacting a bit, but I don't have kids so I don't know how it is to be in your position. If this kid is just helping out and not alone with the kids for extended periods of time I think everything will be fine. And if you are wondering if this is homophobia, just ask yourself this: If the kid was a girl would you feel the same way?

SatCam

08-02-2006, 03:05 PM

I think that if regardless of whether you choose to take your kids out of the program or not, you should definately tell the people in charge. Go back and tell the woman you spoke to before, tell other people in a position of authority, and tell the people who run the church (priests, etc)

I think think that you should identify the kid to the people who run the program so that they could talk to him, but if you speak to the people who run the Church, just mention that you are concerned about the councilors in general.

This message was edited by SatCam on 8-2-06 @ 7:08 PM

Tenbatsuzen

08-02-2006, 03:10 PM

HBox wrote:  My wife told me the other day she saw him lift
one of the four year old boys shirts and was giving him a prolonged
rasberry on the belly.  Is his name Vladimir?I think you might be over-reacting a bit, but I don't have kids so I don't know how it is to be in your position. If this kid is just helping out and not alone with the kids for extended periods of time I think everything will be fine. And if you are wondering if this is homophobia, just ask yourself this: If the kid was a girl would you feel the same way?    It's not a point of homophobia, it's acting inappropriately around children.  If the girl was 12, and a guy was taking cell phone pics of her, I'd fucking go apeshit.

Jujubees2

08-02-2006, 03:22 PM

Wait a minute. Did the kid look like this?<img height="311" src="http://www.ascap.com/playback/2005/spring/images/LanceBass.jpg" width="240" border="0" />

HBox

08-02-2006, 03:26 PM

Tenbatsuzen wrote: HBox wrote: My wife told me the other day she saw him lift
one of the four year old boys shirts and was giving him a prolonged
rasberry on the belly. Is his name Vladimir?I think you might be over-reacting a bit, but I don't have kids so I don't know how it is to be in your position. If this kid is just helping out and not alone with the kids for extended periods of time I think everything will be fine. And if you are wondering if this is homophobia, just ask yourself this: If the kid was a girl would you feel the same way? It's not a point of homophobia, it's acting inappropriately around children. If the girl was 12, and a guy was taking cell phone pics of her, I'd fucking go apeshit.   Kids today take pics with their cell phones all the time. I'd say they take more pictures with cell phones than they do with regular cameras. It doesn't sound like he had them posing for him, it sounded to me like he was just getting together a bunch of them and taking a picture of them, like friends do, and was supervised the whole time. If the situation was different, or there's more to the story, then I might see it differently.The onyl reason I brought up homophobia is because he asked if he was being a homophobe. I wasn't being accusatory, just trying to help him see if the problem is really the situation, or the 17 year old.

Judge Smails

08-02-2006, 03:27 PM

Thank you everyone.  I was able to share your comments with my wife to impress upon her that the situation is, in fact, potentially more serious than she was willing to admit.  As I explained, the situation we're in is somewhat complicated by the fact that we don't want to look like suspicious loons to the rest of the congregation who may hear we took the kids out of the program but not know why.  Also, my wife got a few friends who belong to different churches to sign up for this program and we'd look pretty bad flat leaving them there.Here's what we've decided to do.  My wife is off of work tomorrow.  She's going to stay with the kids all day under the pretext of offering to help out.  She plans on having another talk with the woman who runs the program to let her know that something is definitely fishy and that she shouldn't just shrug it off.  On Friday, being the final day, the kids are going to put on some kind of pagent for the parents followed by refreshments so there will be plenty of parents around.  My wife also plans on letting her friends know what's going on so they can also keep an eye out.Thanks again for your input.Oh, and in case you're wondering we belong to an Episcopalian Church, not Catholic.

Judge Smails

08-02-2006, 03:30 PM

Jujubees2 wrote: Wait a minute. Did the kid look like this?<img height="311" src="http://www.ascap.com/playback/2005/spring/images/LanceBass.jpg" width="240" border="0" />Holy shit!  You'd be surprised just how close you are.

Bulldogcakes

08-02-2006, 03:40 PM

judge_smails wrote: My wife told me the other day she saw him lift one of the four year old boys shirts and was giving him a prolonged rasberry on the belly. <img border="0" src="http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2006/07/06/image1781870g.jpg" /> "Zis iz not gay. Maybe von day he be prezident of Russia!"   EDIT-FUCK! H-Box beat me to it  

This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 8-2-06 @ 7:41 PM

Tenbatsuzen

08-02-2006, 03:43 PM

HBox wrote: Tenbatsuzen wrote: HBox wrote: My wife told me the other day she saw him lift
one of the four year old boys shirts and was giving him a prolonged
rasberry on the belly. Is his name Vladimir?I think you might be over-reacting a bit, but I don't have kids so I don't know how it is to be in your position. If this kid is just helping out and not alone with the kids for extended periods of time I think everything will be fine. And if you are wondering if this is homophobia, just ask yourself this: If the kid was a girl would you feel the same way? It's not a point of homophobia, it's acting inappropriately around children. If the girl was 12, and a guy was taking cell phone pics of her, I'd fucking go apeshit. Kids today take pics with their cell phones all the time. I'd say they take more pictures with cell phones than they do with regular cameras. It doesn't sound like he had them posing for him, it sounded to me like he was just getting together a bunch of them and taking a picture of them, like friends do, and was supervised the whole time. If the situation was different, or there's more to the story, then I might see it differently.    17 year olds take pics of other 17 year olds. 17 year olds do not take pics of four year olds that they are not related to.  Sorry. And it sounds to me that management has already turned a blind eye in this situation.

Tenbatsuzen

08-02-2006, 03:44 PM

I love how Hbox is giving advice in this situation, considering his avatar.

joeyballsack

08-02-2006, 03:47 PM

You could always think about this from a monetary viewpoint. You let your kid hang in there and get touched by this guy a little bit, and you can sue the hell outta the church later on. Your kid will thank you later when he is driving a BMW for his 16th birthday !

HBox

08-02-2006, 03:47 PM

And it sounds to me that management has already turned a blind eye in this situation.Well then, we're taking this all the way up to the top DAMMIT!<img border="0" src="http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1886/god20jesus20christnc4.jpg" /> "Y'all bitches need to chill the fuck out."

HBox

08-02-2006, 03:48 PM

Tenbatsuzen wrote: I love how Hbox is giving advice in this situation, considering his avatar.   I like how you are calling me out, since you pretty much GAVE ME that avatar.

narc

08-02-2006, 03:54 PM

It's not about being homophobic or not. If you or your kid feel uncomfortable for any reason, then he shouldn't go. Period. End of question. It doesn't matter what anyone's intentions are. It's the fact that you are now uncomfortable.

This message was edited by narc on 8-2-06 @ 7:55 PM

Gvac

08-02-2006, 03:55 PM

I'm glad you're doing something about the situation, Judge.  That kid sounds like a Class A creep to me, but even if he's harmless I'm sure you agree it's better to err on the side of caution when it comes to your kids.  After all, their safety and well being is far more important than your perceived "political correctness."

Tenbatsuzen

08-02-2006, 03:58 PM

HBox wrote: Tenbatsuzen wrote: I love how Hbox is giving advice in this situation, considering his avatar. I like how you are calling me out, since you pretty much GAVE ME that avatar.   There is no moral high ground when we're all standing in the mud!  lollerz

HBox

08-02-2006, 04:02 PM

Tenbatsuzen wrote: HBox wrote: Tenbatsuzen wrote: I love how Hbox is giving advice in this situation, considering his avatar. I like how you are calling me out, since you pretty much GAVE ME that avatar. There is no moral high ground when we're all standing in the mud! lollerz   <img width="200" height="292" border="0" src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/mardaclue/lol_lollerskates02.jpg" /> BTW, just as an aside, has this kid ever jumped int he air like that? Just asking!

SatCam

08-02-2006, 04:09 PM

What I want to know is why a fancy rich man like judge smails is sending his kids to a bible camp? Who needs bible camp when you've got $55k laying around!

Bulldogcakes

08-02-2006, 04:31 PM

HBox wrote: Tenbatsuzen wrote: I love how Hbox is giving advice in this situation, considering his avatar. I like how you are calling me out, since you pretty much GAVE ME that avatar. I started the "Spanking Girls" thread, which I'm sure gave TB the idea. So I get some credit too. BTW-Best avatar ever.  <blockquote />

A.J.

08-03-2006, 04:03 AM

judge_smails wrote: One kid, who's about 16 or 17, and I'll describe as looking "FABULOUS!" gives me the heebie jeebies.  He's always singing to himself, walking around in an (OK I'll say it) prancing manner and telling anyone who'll listen how he was to be an actor and dancer.My wife told me the other day she saw him lift one of the four year old boys shirts and was giving him a prolonged rasberry on the belly.  Today was my day to pick them up and I saw him taking pictures of only the boys with his cell phone.  I  Maybe he just never "had a real childhood".<img height="198" src="http://www.soulwalking.co.uk/%A5Artist%20GIF%20Images/Michael-Jackson-With-Kids.jpg" width="285" border="0" />

AKA

08-03-2006, 06:47 AM

I'm simply going to speculate (again) that this wasn't a Baptist or Catholic Church - perhaps Episcopal, Methodist or Lutheran - not really known for the kiddy touching cover-ups. And, if this kid was even 3 years younger, the same people wanting to burn him at the stake now would be wondering which dirty uncle had touched him to turn him gay. Also, as HBox said, most kids don't own cameras anymore, they use their phones - I'm throwing out there that we might not know the full story; was he really only taking pictures of the girls; was he taking pictures of kids he and his family had a relationship with outside of the church; was he taking pictures of only the kids he had been working with that week; was he doing someone a favor at the church? ULTIMATELY, however, it is very tough for me to find fault with any of reactions on here, since I don't have children. Eleven years ago, however, my then 12 year old nephew was approached online (in a forum that was supposed to be "kid safe") by a guy who (when tracked down) turned out to be a hockey playing, everyday looking 35 year old dude who physically gave off no "red flags." For me, the red flag with your story is the fact that he seems so open with who he is - the people who are doing the bad shit are almost always overly paranoid with how they will be perceived, and are only brave when parents aren't around. My openly gay and lesbian friends are with kids quite often, and it's never even a nano-second of concern, regardless of the interaction. Even one of my good friends is kind of turned off by any of the twinks who look "underfed" and "not done yet." Taking it back to a public level, (outside of Michael Jackson!), when was the last time you saw any of these pervs arrested for molestation look like a flaming queer girly-boy? I think in all of those Datelinie NBCs, where they nabbed 100s of these preds, there were only 3 that looked like sissies. They all look like truck drivers or account executives.I'm really playing devil's advocate here just to get a different opinions out there - again, easy to do when I don't have a kid.

This message was edited by AKA on 8-3-06 @ 10:48 AM

Dougie Brootal

08-03-2006, 06:54 AM

AKA wrote: I'm simply going to speculate (again) that this wasn't a Baptist or Catholic Church - perhaps Episcopal, Methodist or Lutheran - not really known for the kiddy touching cover-ups. And, if this kid was even 3 years younger, the same people wanting to burn him at the stake now would be wondering which dirty uncle had touched him to turn him gay. Also, as HBox said, most kids don't own cameras anymore, they use their phones - I'm throwing out there that we might not know the full story; was he really only taking pictures of the girls; was he taking pictures of kids he and his family had a relationship with outside of the church; was he taking pictures of only the kids he had been working with that week; was he doing someone a favor at the church? ULTIMATELY, however, it is very tough for me to find fault with any of reactions on here, since I don't have children. Eleven years ago, however, my then 12 year old nephew was approached online (in a forum that was supposed to be "kid safe") by a guy who (when tracked down) turned out to be a hockey playing, everyday looking 35 year old dude who physically gave off no "red flags." For me, the red flag with your story is the fact that he seems so open with who he is - the people who are doing the bad shit are almost always overly paranoid with how they will be perceived, and are only brave when parents aren't around. My openly gay and lesbian friends are with kids quite often, and it's never even a nano-second of concern, regardless of the interaction. Even one of my good friends is kind of turned off by any of the twinks who look "underfed" and "not done yet." Taking it back to a public level, (outside of Michael Jackson!), when was the last time you saw any of these pervs arrested for molestation look like a flaming queer girly-boy? I think in all of those Datelinie NBCs, where they nabbed 100s of these preds, there were only 3 that looked like sissies. They all look like truck drivers or account executives.I'm really playing devil's advocate here just to get a different opinions out there - again, easy to do when I don't have a kid.This message was edited by AKA on 8-3-06 @ 10:48 AM  he already said it was episcopal

AKA

08-03-2006, 07:10 AM

douggrasso wrote: he already said it was episcopalAhh - missed that down there - again, they really aren't known for the big cover-ups or problems with that sort of thing. A bigger question may be trust in the individual church - if there is no trust that the church is going to screen out inappropriate teenage volunteers, then you are better off finding going to a new parish.

Judge Smails

08-03-2006, 07:28 AM

AKA wrote: Ahh - missed that down there - again, they really aren't known for the big cover-ups or problems with that sort of thing. Actually they're VERY much in the open.  I grew up Catholic and got some creepy vibes off of my parish priest.  My wife is Episcopalian, which pretty much makes me Episcopalian too.  I generally hate all religions but in order to give the kids some kind of moral compass, until they're old enough to decide for themselves, we go to church.I love the fact that the Episcopal church seems so much more open and liberal compared to my Catholic upbringing.  The minister in the town that I moved from (Secaucus) is actually one of the six or so gay couples that was suing the State of New Jersey for the right to legally get married.  My wife and I were among those who supported him when we were there.  But I can tell you that he lost A LOT of the older members of the congregation.  But like I stated, my feelings are completely different when my kids are involved.  This kid was giving me a creepy vibe.  Not because he's gay, but because he was doing  things that I perceived as innappropriate.  It may not be PC but, for my kid's sake, I'd rather accuse a potentially innocent person than to take a chance with their safety.

narc

08-03-2006, 07:32 AM

<hr color="cococo" align="left">AKA wrote: douggrasso wrote: he already said it was episcopalAhh - missed that down there - again, they really aren't known for the big cover-ups or problems with that sort of thing. A bigger question may be trust in the individual church - if there is no trust that the church is going to screen out inappropriate teenage volunteers, then you are better off finding going to a new parish.<hr color="cococo" align="left">
The church isn't even a relevant concern here since it wasn't a clergy member. And do you honestly think that just because it isn't Catholic or Baptist, "Oh, well then they're completely safe. Take my son to the bathroom. Since we're not Catholic or Baptist, he can't possibly be molested by someone at a church function."
 
There are freaks everywhere, sad but true, and this sort of thing is grossly underreported more than its overreported, John Stossel notwithstanding. And again, the point is not anyone's sexuality. The point is acting really creepy around Judge Smails' kids. KOP's being way too PC.

This message was edited by narc on 8-3-06 @ 11:33 AM

Tenbatsuzen

08-03-2006, 07:32 AM

The church has nothing to do with it.  Pedos and predators come from all walks of life.  The Catholic church gets the brunt of it, but hell - the BTK killer was a lutheran.  In fact, the "fingerprint" used to catch the BTK was an electronic stamp on a floppy disk that was investigated, tracing back to BTK's church. Reading Judge Smails' solution, I think that's the best possible way they could have handled things, and I commend him for it.

kevcala

08-03-2006, 08:15 AM

judge_smails wrote: My wife is Episcopalian, which pretty much makes me Episcopalian too.  <img width="320" height="137" border="0" src="http://web.jet.es/unepelde/imgs/pf_kburger.jpg" />

WhistlePig

08-03-2006, 08:23 AM

Your solution to the problem is a good one, judge. Whether this kid is OK or not
you should trust your instincts and err on the side of caution, especially when it
comes to children. Quit worrying so much about how you and your wife "will look"
to the rest of the church. Always put your children's welfare above appearances.

blakjeezis

08-03-2006, 08:36 AM

To answer your intial question as to whether or not you're being a homophobe, the test is this: If this kid was not as flamboyant and apparently gay as he appears to be and was doing all these things would your reaction be the same? I would suggest that if he was a "regular joe" his behavior would be even more alarming, in which case it would be a case of reverse homophobia, I suppose. Regardless, if you're basing your judgement on his behavior AND the fact that he seems to be gay, then yes, you're being a homophobe. If you would be concerned regardless of his apparent sexual persuasion then no, you're just being a concerned parent.

This message was edited by blakjeezis on 8-3-06 @ 12:38 PM

terry1979

08-03-2006, 08:39 AM

gett'em out...NOW!!!!

patsopinion

08-04-2006, 11:17 AM

did you ask your kid.  I mean the 8 year old may have an opinion on the subject.If
you have a bad feeling about taking your kids to church then isnt that
counteractive to having your kids there.  It seems like if you
think that they could be in danger or be subjected to something then
you are well withing your rights as a parent.you may be a little biggot like but church should be the opposite of a place you should fear/worry to take your kids.