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booster11373

08-28-2006, 12:19 PM

what would happen to the world economy if all third world debt was forgiven, Would the econmoy crash ,would the third world be better off? any ideas Im reading a book about this stuff and just curious if anyone has some ideas

This message was edited by booster11373 on 8-28-06 @ 4:45 PM

phixion

08-28-2006, 12:34 PM

Would the econmoy crash would the econmy crash would the third world be better off?translation? hey im mr left wing but this wouldnt do much. the us has forgiven more debt payments than it has received. and i come from a third world country, heres the way i see it. first thing that should be done is stop subsidizing our farmers and start importing produce from countries than need it most. jamaica's bananas cost more to grow than nicaraguan bananas yet nicaraguan bananas can cost more, because of agreements between our gov't and nicaragua that jamaica isnt a part of. the only thing that keeps jamaicas banana plantations going is the uk cuz they buy exclusively from jamaica. another thing stop getting sugar from beets. if you stimulate sugarcane again watch african and west indian countries thrive.

Don Stugots

08-28-2006, 12:46 PM

a question for smart people.....

i refuse to answer.

reeshy

08-28-2006, 12:51 PM

I have the answer...but I won't give it to you...that's why I'm smart and you're not!!!!!!

booster11373

08-28-2006, 01:05 PM

Stugots, Reeshy, funny people maybe? smart people most likely not<img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smile.gif" border="0" />

This message was edited by booster11373 on 8-28-06 @ 5:06 PM

reeshy

08-28-2006, 01:40 PM

OOOOOOOOOOOOOH....you got us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

Don Stugots

08-28-2006, 01:47 PM

"rude and rude"who ratted us out?  sonsabitches!

This message was edited by STUGOTS1 on 8-28-06 @ 6:23 PM

ChrisTheCop

08-28-2006, 02:29 PM

Lets simplify it for dumb people, like myself.What would happen if your creditors forgave all of YOUR debt? Sure, initially youd wanna turn over a new leaf, but eventually, youd be buying big screen tv's you couldnt afford, and xbox games, etc... right?Listen, I'm a firm believer that the rich should help out the poor (including countries), but when you loan someone something, you expect it to be paid back...eventually...somehow.  Like since France owes us so much $$$, they always support us in any decisions we make! (I know france isnt a 3rd world country, ok?)

BeerBandit

08-28-2006, 02:37 PM

It wouldn't make a damn bit of difference because they aren't paying us back anyway.  It's time to annex Mexico, fill it with corn fields and put those oil companies out of business.

Don Stugots

08-28-2006, 02:51 PM

ChrisTheCop wrote: Lets simplify it for dumb people, like myself.What would happen if your creditors forgave all of YOUR debt? Sure, initially youd wanna turn over a new leaf, but eventually, youd be buying big screen tv's you couldnt afford, and xbox games, etc... right?Listen, I'm a firm believer that the rich should help out the poor (including countries), but when you loan someone something, you expect it to be paid back...eventually...somehow.  Like since France owes us so much $$$, they always support us in any decisions we make! (I know france isnt a 3rd world country, ok?)france isnt a 3rd world country?  are you sure?  ever see the women from there?i like beer bandits idea.  Mexico shouldnt even be a state or a territory, just an annex.  like a car trailer.  it isnt part of the car but it can go far on its own.

HBox

08-28-2006, 02:56 PM

Like since France owes us so much $$$, they
always support us in any decisions we make! (I know france isnt a 3rd
world country, ok?)And we owe China so much money so we do the same for them.

UnknownPD

08-28-2006, 03:02 PM

Since we've sold out our workers and are soon to be a third world country ourselves we ought to forgive it so when Mexico is lending us money we can say "hey, dude we forgave you"

MadMatt

08-28-2006, 03:13 PM

BeerBandit wrote:   It wouldn't make a damn bit of difference because they aren't paying us back anyway.  This is it in a nutshell.  Forgiving the debt is largely a political issue since the 3rd world isn't going to (or more accurately can't afford to) pay the debt back anyway.  They aren't even trying to pay anything back at this point.

UnknownPD

08-28-2006, 03:23 PM

They aren't even trying to pay anything back at this pointDo you have a cite for this or is it anecdotal? Western countries have long used debt as a way to force developing nation into adopting the western view of finances. Many people; particularly in Africa believe these loans are the cause of  much of the corruption found in these nations and force governments to hurt their own people in order to get a western handout. A worldly version of predatory lending.

Don Stugots

08-28-2006, 03:27 PM

an anecdotal?  a what?

UnknownPD

08-28-2006, 03:47 PM

<h3>cite1&ensp;</h3><table cellpadding="0" width="100%" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" width="24"><h3>1. </h3></td><td valign="top"><h3>to quote (a passage, book, author, etc.), esp. as an authority: He cited the Constitution in his defense. </h3></td></tr></table><h3><table cellpadding="0" width="100%" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" width="24"><h3>2. </h3></td><td valign="top"><h3>to mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example: He cited many instances of abuse of power. </h3></td></tr></table></h3>anecdotal: based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation: anecdotal evidence(Colloquial: to pull out of one's ass)

This message was edited by UnknownPD on 8-28-06 @ 7:50 PM

FUNKMAN

08-28-2006, 03:49 PM

A question for smart people i'll try and find someone...

booster11373

08-28-2006, 03:49 PM

The book I'm reading is called Confessions of an Economic Hitman. It really lays out how the Developed nations use foreign aid as a club to basically saddle the the third world with debt thus insuring dependence on the first worlds continuing aid. Which is more or less Mercantilism, one of the reaseons we rebelled from England see where im going here?

Don Stugots

08-28-2006, 03:49 PM

i see.  i thought it meant a cure to a poison.

Marc with a c

08-28-2006, 03:50 PM

smart poeple are stoopid.

Recyclerz

08-28-2006, 04:00 PM

As usual Wikipedia is a good place to start<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_countries'_debt">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_countries'_debt</a>Debt relief for poor, developing nations - when coupled with a proactive commitment by both sides to see that the former repayments and interest are used for infrastructure investments that actually benefit the people- is a good and necessary thing.  If there are no controls on the debtor nation too often the $ just gets sucked up by the ruling elite.And H-box's point is a good one - As the largest debtor nation on the planet, with a tab that's growing almost exponentially thanks to Bushonomics, we really shouldn't be throwing stones 'round here.

furie

08-28-2006, 04:11 PM

booster11373 wrote: what would happen to the world economy if all third world debt was forgiven, Would the econmoy crash ,would the third world be better off? any ideas Im reading a book about this stuff and just curious if anyone has some ideas

This message was edited by booster11373 on 8-28-06 @ 4:45 PM

they'll just run up the debt again

Ogre

08-28-2006, 04:12 PM

I'll spare you all my usual blathering and say...           I dunno *shrugs*

CuzBum

08-28-2006, 04:17 PM

HBox wrote:  Like since France owes us so much $$$, they always support us in any decisions we make! (I know france isnt a 3rd world country, ok?)  And we owe China so much money so we do the same for them. <img src="http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/74/imagessd0.jpg" border="0" />"The Chinese are coming."

Don Stugots

08-28-2006, 04:21 PM

so did this italian about an hour ago. 

Marc with a c

08-28-2006, 04:24 PM

we should all shut up until mike the teacher or black jeezis show up to settle this.

SatCam

08-28-2006, 04:28 PM

A question for smart people

I guess you want Matty Fridays then

OldGravyLeg

08-28-2006, 06:25 PM

Would it matter one way or another.  Britain is still paying us back from lend-lease from ww2

Mike Teacher

08-28-2006, 06:53 PM

evedder wrote: we should all shut up until mike the teacher or black jeezis show up to settle this. no mike the teacher is clueless about economics except the bits i know for adjuncting environmental science college courses, and that's GNP and Ecological Footprint, etc. and I never listened enough in my Eco classes, and I get almost none of it.Soary...

A.J.

08-29-2006, 04:19 AM

BeerBandit wrote:  It's time to annex Mexico, fill it with corn fields and put those oil companies out of business. Mexico is annexing US.<img height="500" src="http://www.holtzbrinckpublishers.com/images/Books/L/0312360037L.jpg" width="329" border="0" />

jeffdwright2001

08-29-2006, 05:04 AM

Without 3rd world debt there would be no coallition of the willing.I'm an English and History kind of guy.  But I did take a look at what the U.S. is doing in terms of dollars and percentage in relation to other countries.Dollar wise we are right up at the top.<table class="bar-chart" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">Net ODA in 2005 as US dollar amounts <tr>CountryAid amount by dollars</tr><tr><td colspan="2">Source: <a href="http://www.oecd.org/document/40/0,2340,en_2649_33721_36418344_1_1_1_1,00.html">Aid flows top USD 100 billion in 2005</a>, OECD, April 2006 (preliminary data)If you are viewing this table on another site, please see <a href="http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp">http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp</a> for further details.Percentage wise, we aren't doing so hot.<table class="bar-chart" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">Net ODA in 2005 as percent of GNI <tr>CountryAid amount by GNP</tr><tr><td colspan="2">Source: <a href="http://www.oecd.org/document/40/0,2340,en_2649_33721_36418344_1_1_1_1,00.html">Aid flows top USD 100 billion in 2005</a>, OECD, April 2006 (preliminary data)If you are viewing this table on another site, please see <a href="http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp">http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp</a> for further details.</td></tr><tr class="first"><td class="first">Norway</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="317" border="0" />0.93</td></tr><tr><td>Sweden</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="314" border="0" />0.92</td></tr><tr><td>Luxembourg</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="297" border="0" />0.87</td></tr><tr><td>Netherlands</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="280" border="0" />0.82</td></tr><tr><td>Denmark</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="277" border="0" />0.81</td></tr><tr><td>Belgium</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="181" border="0" />0.53</td></tr><tr><td>Austria</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="178" border="0" />0.52</td></tr><tr><td>UK</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="164" border="0" />0.48</td></tr><tr><td>Finland</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="161" border="0" />0.47</td></tr><tr><td>France</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="161" border="0" />0.47</td></tr><tr><td>Switzerland</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="150" border="0" />0.44</td></tr><tr><td>Ireland</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="140" border="0" />0.41</td></tr><tr><td>Germany</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="120" border="0" />0.35</td></tr><tr><td>Canada</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="116" border="0" />0.34</td></tr><tr><td>Italy</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="99" border="0" />0.29</td></tr><tr><td>Spain</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="99" border="0" />0.29</td></tr><tr><td>Japan</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="96" border="0" />0.28</td></tr><tr><td>New Zealand</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www.ronfez.net/i/bar.png" width="93" border="0" />0.27</td></tr><tr><td>Australia</td><td class="v"><img height="16" alt="" src="http://www

UnknownPD

08-29-2006, 05:27 AM

Without 3rd world debt there would be no coallition of the willingI think that's the point. The debtor countries become beholden to the donor countries causing them to act in the interests of the donor and not their own.

jeffdwright2001

08-29-2006, 06:36 AM

UnknownPD wrote:  Without 3rd world debt there would be no coallition of the willing  I think that's the point. The debtor countries become beholden to the donor countries causing them to act in the interests of the donor and not their own.Actually, my point was that having a coallition of the willing comprised of primarily 3rd world countries (with the inability to offer support in essentially anything other than name) is like using a sieve to carry water.

UnknownPD

08-29-2006, 06:42 AM

Actually, my point was that having a coallition of the willing comprised of primarily 3rd world countries (with the inability to offer support in essentially anything other than name) is like using a sieve to carry water.I'm all wet

phixion

08-29-2006, 06:55 AM

dont u think a colander would be better if you want to carry water

UnknownPD

08-29-2006, 07:00 AM

jeffdwright2001

08-29-2006, 07:21 AM

There can be only one<img height="246" src="http://www.hildreths.com/IMAGES/Colander.jpg" width="275" border="0" />

zentraed

08-29-2006, 08:49 AM

booster11373 wrote: what would happen to the world economy if all third world debt was forgiven, Would the econmoy crash ,would the third world be better off? any ideas Im reading a book about this stuff and just curious if anyone has some ideas

This message was edited by booster11373 on 8-28-06 @ 4:45 PM When I see the size of third-world debt, I find it "laughably" small compared to our own. There was movement about a year and half ago to eliminate debt in qualifying African nations (related to corruption/stability), but it's not like we just erase the debt. Someone still has to pay: First world nations pay a chunk but more importantly, the lenders absorb the remaining cost (World Bank and others). You have to get everyone on board. All the money still has to be accounted for. Just google "africa debt relief" and you'll get some good articles.

Yerdaddy

08-29-2006, 08:51 AM

What would happen if all the debt was forgiven? Lots of shit. Some governments would use the money to buy military shit they don't need; some government leaders would steal shitloads of the money and put it in Swiss bank accounts; some governments will rack up huge debts again; some governments will invest the money in health and education and a healthy infrastructure. It's a compex issue that can't be addressed simply. Maybe I can talk about what I've learned in Yemen when I have more time. However...Unfortunately, after researching your book a bit I think it's crap, and the idea that it's on the NYT Bestseller list is depressing. One reason I'm skeptical is that one of his claims is that he was recruited by the NSA to join a company and advise countries on their economic policies, (encouraging them to accept huge debts that left them beholden to USG and US corporations). The NSA doesn't do that type of work. It's does communication monitoring, code-breaking, and the like, but it doesn't do economics. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1576753018/104-1614821-4953539?v=glance&n=283155" target="_blank">Publishers Weekly, (the standard review company used by Amazon), trashes the book:</a>[QUOTE]From Publishers Weekly Perkins spent the 1970s working as an economic planner for an international consulting firm, a job that took him to exotic locales like Indonesia and Panama, helping wealthy corporations exploit developing nations as, he claims, a not entirely unwitting front for the National Security Agency. He says he was trained early in his career by a glamorous older woman as one of many "economic hit men" advancing the cause of corporate hegemony. He also says he has wanted to tell his story for the last two decades, but his shadowy masters have either bought him off or threatened him until now. The story as presented is implausible to say the least, offering so few details that Perkins often seems paranoid, and the simplistic political analysis doesn’t enhance his credibility. Despite the claim that his work left him wracked with guilt, the artless prose is emotionally flat and generally comes across as a personal crisis of conscience blown up to monstrous proportions, casting Perkins as a victim not only of his own neuroses over class and money but of dark forces beyond his control. His claim to have assisted the House of Saud in strengthening its ties to American power brokers may be timely enough to attract some attention, but the yarn he spins is ultimately unconvincing, except perhaps to conspiracy buffs.[/QUOTE]<img height="46" src="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~krupski/smilies/nuts.gif" width="38" border="0" />And third, the <a href="http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2004/site_packages/econ_hitmen/3148herrhausen.html" target="_blank">Lyndon Larouche family endorses the book</a>:[QUOTE]But the modus operandi described also fits an entire series of unexplained murders in Europe: from Enrico Mattei, Aldo Moro, Jürgen Ponto, and Alfred Herrhausen, to Detlev Karsten Rohwedder, to name only a few. The bombshell is, that Perkins explains that he made the decision to unmask himself as such an "economic hit-man" (EHM, as he refers to the insider slang), because he came to the conclusion that this decades-long practice had finally resulted in the events of Sept. 11, 2001. And he openly warns that more such events are on the agenda.The publication of this book is part of an unprecedented revolt of a large part of the American security services, military, civil services, and diplomats, who are more and more convinced that a continuation of the Bush/Cheney policies will lead to the downfall of the United States. The two most important spheres in which the complete wreck of the Bush Administration's policy is obvious, are the out-of-control

A.J.

08-29-2006, 09:01 AM

From Publishers Weekly  His claim to have assisted the House of Saud in strengthening its ties to American power brokers may be timely enough to attract some attention, but the yarn he spins is ultimately unconvincing, except perhaps to conspiracy buffs Like they would need the help.  Prince Al-Walid bin Talal bin 'Abd Al'-'Aziz owns a chunk of this country.

jeffdwright2001

08-29-2006, 09:15 AM

A.J. wrote:  From Publishers Weekly  His claim to have assisted the House of Saud in strengthening its ties to American power brokers may be timely enough to attract some attention, but the yarn he spins is ultimately unconvincing, except perhaps to conspiracy buffs Like they would need the help.  Prince Al-Walid bin Talal bin 'Abd Al'-'Aziz owns a chunk of this country.But we must get something back.  He must have to buy at least 3 vanity plates for that name.

MadMatt

08-29-2006, 09:19 AM

UnknownPD wrote:  They aren't even trying to pay anything back at this point  Do you have a cite for this or is it anecdotal? Western countries have long used debt as a way to force developing nation into adopting the western view of finances. Many people; particularly in Africa believe these loans are the cause of  much of the corruption found in these nations and force governments to hurt their own people in order to get a western handout. A worldly version of predatory lending.Sorry for the late reply - my supposition on that point is anecdotal.  The info is pulled from several "Talking Head" shows I heard around the time of Live 8.  Sorry I can't provide more info than that - it just stuck in my head.I agree about the predatory lending concept, but as I said the impact of debt forgiveness is largely political.  You made the point yourself that political considerations (see quote above) are of paramount concern.  The debt is used more frequently as political leverage than economic.Per the original question; no, the world economy won't collapse.  However, there would be extensive political implications.