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WRESTLINGFAN

12-17-2006, 07:05 AM

This has been one of the hot topics over the last few years. There are about 40 million Americans without coverage. I pay for my coverage out of my salary every 2 weeks. Some say that the Health care system should be nationalized, I know Hillary Clinton had a plan back in '93 but that was a disaster. I believe there should be some change, but nationalizing it by forming a new Bureaucracy in my opinion wouldn't help

Snacks

12-17-2006, 07:26 AM

Something needs to be dne. I currently do not have insurance and hopefully getting it soon. Health insurance is way to expensive. Clintons plan was a start but would have hurt Dr's way too much. So much that it wouldnt be worth spending that much on school to become a DR.

Yerdaddy

12-17-2006, 07:30 AM

I think anyone who can't afford health insurance should stop being so selfish and just die. I mean, obviously this is a sinking ship and you're just ballast anyway.

K.C.

12-17-2006, 07:42 AM

Here's the problem. If you took a poll of everyone in this country and asked if they wanted a national healthcare plan, I'd say you'd probably get an overwhelmingly favorable response. When we have elections, though, among voters, people are either against it, or the people who are for it don't consider it an important enough issue to vote on it first in choosing their candidates. So the point is that the people who need/want it the most don't even bother to vote. Until they actually do something and force the government to act, nothing will happen.

FUNKMAN

12-17-2006, 08:36 AM

i hear the complaint from the medical community that "high costs" come from lawsuits.  i have an aunt in a nursing home, one sunday one of her doctors walks in with a "how you doing and a goodbye". he happened to be at a family function nearby, that was 200 bucks. when i went into a hospital in 87' after a car accident there were four doctors i've never met who got consultation fees of 150 dollars each. plus i had to deal with getting some of these bills straightened out, not much because insurance paid everything but bills were being sent to the house.the medical industry does a great job for the most part but should clean their house a little bit

epo

12-17-2006, 03:04 PM

FUNKMAN wrote: the medical industry does a great job for the most part but should clean their house a little bitThis is one of the great American topics of the day.  I wish we would talk about it more quite frankly.  I believe that every American has a basic right to health care.  However we need to get some education out there and understand what is standing in the way.1.  Everybody looks at provider companies and thinks they are making a ton of money.  Well, generally they are not.  Most clinics don't make money and most hospitals are non-profits.  The normal non-profit healthcare system pulls down about a 2-5% margin at the end of the day.  For profits work on a little higher percentage, but not much higher.2.  Doctors get paid alot.  True enough, but then again if I went to school for 10 years, I would too.3.  On the flip side, Health insurance companies currently have record profits with record margins.  Why is that?  4.  Our government does a shit job of making healthcare available to everyone.  They legitimately can't lower reimbursement rates any lower or these providers are going to go bankrupt.  They also can't expect the hospital providers to take on more low-reimbursement customers (Medicare, Medicaid) at the current rates or they will also go under.  Note:  reimbursement rates are flat fees that providers get for services.  The federal government generally pays hospital providers under 50% reimbursement that private insurance does for the same services.  This generally explains why hospitals/clinics in the surburbs are nice/modern/growing and why inner-city hospitals/clinics are older/disrepair/etc.5.  Our federal government doesn't offer universal health care.  We also have one of the lowest federal government tax rates among "first world" countries in the world.  Our government is the only one that doesn't offer this service to it's population.  We also spend the most on our military (by percentage) by a wide margin.  That all being said, how do we begin to fix this problem?

UnknownPD

12-17-2006, 03:34 PM

As much as I hate to say it the answer seems to be the French plan which combines both public and private coverages. Everyone is guaranteed a base plan, but you have the ability to buy more. Canada has prohibited private health insurance. (Though recent Canadian Supreme Court rulings) may change this. With 33 mil people roughly 10% of US pop Canada is being bakrupted by its healthcare system. Waits for basic tests are long and many people travel to the US and have a "crisis" to receive treatment.England is constantly searching for new funding for the National Health Service and in Ireland the wait can be six to eight weeks for a cardiac bypass. Something we would consider an emergency here.If the 40 mil number is correct that means that 8% of Americans have no coverage. I hope whatever "solution" we adopt focuses on getting those 8% covered not on messing up the coverage of the other 92%.

UnknownPD

12-17-2006, 03:36 PM

. 

This message was edited by UnknownPD on 12-17-06 @ 7:49 PM

HBox

12-17-2006, 03:43 PM

If the 40 mil number is correct that means that 8% of Americans have no coverage. I hope whatever "solution" we adopt focuses on getting those 8% covered not on messing up the coverage of the other 92%.40 million is more like 13 percent of Americans. And a significant number of those with insurance have crappy coverage with small caps or coverage that doesn't cover anything significant.I too wouldagree with something more like the French model. Completely shutting out private industry has only shown to hinder national health systems. I just hope we don't have to face some sort of disaster where a lot more people start losing their coverage before anyone starts taking this seriously.

UnknownPD

12-17-2006, 03:48 PM

296 mil divided by 40 mil = 7.5

HBox

12-17-2006, 03:48 PM

Oh yeah, and one of the fastest gorwing industries in the country is the health care billing industry. There are so many different insurance companies with so many different policies and guidelines for submitting invoives has led to doctors to have to hire more and more people just to deal with insurance companies. On top of that you have some of the less reputable insurance companies sending back bills unpaid for no reason other than in a hope that the hospital/doctor's office/patient gives up and pay for it themselves. Sometimes you end up having to send in the same bill 2 or 3 times to finally get paid for something clearly covered.There's a hell of a lot of money going to people in health care industry who are doing nothing  to treat anybody. And it's growing everyday.

HBox

12-17-2006, 03:50 PM

UnknownPD wrote: 296 mil divided by 40 mil = 7.5You are doing that backwards. It's 40 mil divided by 296 mil, and the percentage will be the answer. A quick estimate will tell you it has to be more than 10 percent seeing as 10 percent of 300 mil is 30 mil.

UnknownPD

12-17-2006, 04:06 PM

HBox wrote: Oh yeah, and one of the fastest gorwing industries in the country is the health care billing industry. There are so many different insurance companies with so many different policies and guidelines for submitting invoives has led to doctors to have to hire more and more people just to deal with insurance companies. On top of that you have some of the less reputable insurance companies sending back bills unpaid for no reason other than in a hope that the hospital/doctor's office/patient gives up and pay for it themselves. Sometimes you end up having to send in the same bill 2 or 3 times to finally get paid for something clearly covered. There's a hell of a lot of money going to people in health care industry who are doing nothing  to treat anybody. And it's growing everyday.This is something you heard or know? As both an employer and a heart patient I deal with these issues on an almost daily basis. Aside from the cost the system works really well. The answer is going to be that you will not have a choice and must buy health insurance. Whether you pay for it on a monthly basis or through your taxes its going to be mandatory and should be.

Snacks

12-17-2006, 04:07 PM

UnknownPD wrote: 296 mil divided by 40 mil = 7.5 are you serious?

UnknownPD

12-17-2006, 04:07 PM

HBox wrote: UnknownPD wrote: 296 mil divided by 40 mil = 7.5 You are doing that backwards. It's 40 mil divided by 296 mil, and the percentage will be the answer. A quick estimate will tell you it has to be more than 10 percent seeing as 10 percent of 300 mil is 30 mil. You get an "A" in math and I an "F"

HBox

12-17-2006, 04:13 PM

UnknownPD wrote: HBox wrote: Oh yeah, and one of the fastest gorwing industries in the country is the health care billing industry. There are so many different insurance companies with so many different policies and guidelines for submitting invoives has led to doctors to have to hire more and more people just to deal with insurance companies. On top of that you have some of the less reputable insurance companies sending back bills unpaid for no reason other than in a hope that the hospital/doctor's office/patient gives up and pay for it themselves. Sometimes you end up having to send in the same bill 2 or 3 times to finally get paid for something clearly covered. There's a hell of a lot of money going to people in health care industry who are doing nothing to treat anybody. And it's growing everyday.This is something you heard or know? As both an employer and a heart patient I deal with these issues on an almost daily basis. Aside from the cost the system works really well. The answer is going to be that you will not have a choice and must buy health insurance. Whether you pay for it on a monthly basis or through your taxes its going to be mandatory and should be. My old health insurance company would send back bills all the time. they'd eventually pay them but I'd say at least 40% of the time for routine stuff we'd be getting letters from hospitals or doctors saying that the insurance company had rejected the claim. Everytime they'd eventually pay it after the bill being resubmitted. We thought maybe the doctors or hospitals were doing sloppy jobs submitting bills until we moved to  a new insurance company and all that shit stopped immediately.I will agree that the system is for the most part fantastic when you have access. The problem is that not everybody has access and some with access are saddled with crippling bills afterwards.

sr71blackbird

12-17-2006, 05:13 PM

I am torn between either side of this.  Part of me thinks it would be great, in the event I lost my job and needed coverage.  With my great plan that my employer priovides, I get a great deal of added coverage that I doubt a governmental plan would cover.  I believe that if the goverment took it over, there would be no incentive for a doctir to be any better than run-of-the-mill.  Are there any countries with a national health plan that have an envious reputation for quality care?  If it is in the governments interest, isn't it par for the course that state run agencies are typically found lacking in terns of service and quality?  Think of the DMV or an unemployement office.. Ever been to a HIP office?  Personally, I think Id prefer a system that is set up as ours is now, and if one doctor far outshines another doctor in the same field, I think he or she should be entitled to reap the benefits, and this motivates otehr doctots to want to be better too..I think we all benefit from this. Isn't it faor and right that a Mercedes be more costly than a Hundai?  That a factory worker in Mercedes make more money than a worker in a Hundai plant if the quality of their work merits it?      

This message was edited by sr71blackbird on 12-17-06 @ 9:17 PM

HBox

12-17-2006, 05:20 PM

sr71blackbird wrote: I am torn between either side of this. Part of me thinks it would be great, in the event I lost my job and needed coverage. With my great plan that my employer priovides, I get a great deal of added coverage that I doubt the govertments plan would cover. I believe that if the goverment took it over, there would be no incentive for a doctir to be any better than run-of-the-mill. Are there any countries with a national health plan that have an envious reputation for quality care? If it is in the governments interest, isn't it par for the course that state run agencies are typically found lacking in terns of service and quality? Think of the DMV or an unemployement office.. Ever been to a HIP office? Personally, I think Id prefer that if the system is set up as it is now, and a doctor far outshines another doctor in the same field, I think he or she should be entitled to reap the benefits, and this motivates otehr doctots to want to be better too..Actually as far as international surveys go our quality of care is not any better than anywhere else. There was a big study done on this recently and I believe we were only first in the world in emergency care. I'm not saying that this was the final word but there are indications that our quality of care is not the envy of the world.And even if it was can we really say its worth it to cut out 13% of the population from anything other than very expensive (to all of us, not just the uninsured) emergency care just so the rest of us can have higher quality care?

This message was edited by HBox on 12-17-06 @ 9:20 PM

sr71blackbird

12-17-2006, 05:25 PM

Technically, dont we have free health care right now?  If you go to any emergency room, they have signs that say you cannot be refused care if you cannot pay..

HBox

12-17-2006, 05:37 PM

sr71blackbird wrote: Technically, dont we have free health care right now? If you go to any emergency room, they have signs that say you cannot be refused care if you cannot pay..You cannot be REFUSED, but you still have to PAY. And emergency rooms rates for the uninsured is BY FAR the most expensive type of care. And you can't get any preventative care so patients end up there often with easily preventable conditions that will now require much more expensive treatments or procedures that the uninsured will never pay which will cripple them financially and leave the rest of us footing the bill. It's a system that ends up fucking everyone on all ends. EDIT: And some of the much more expensive procedures CAN be refused, stuff like organ transplants. 

This message was edited by HBox on 12-17-06 @ 9:38 PM

sr71blackbird

12-17-2006, 05:47 PM

I still think we get better doctors when they are financially motivated to be better.  Just like lawyers or plumbers or any industry that has a reward for being the best.  Of course, Id love it if everything was "free", who wouldnt?  But it wouldnt be really free, because its funding would come out of your taxes.  Also, I chose to work in the company I work for because they have great health benefits.  Part of the companys advanatge in retaining quality people is the health plan.  If everything was covered otherwise, why should I stay where I am?  I know many companys are leaning away from paying benefits, and this will likely initiate a national drive to make national health care a reality, I just hope we still get superior care. 

HBox

12-17-2006, 06:02 PM

sr71blackbird wrote: I still think we get better doctors when they are financially motivated to be better. Just like lawyers or plumbers or any industry that has a reward for being the best. Of course, Id love it if everything was "free", who wouldnt? But it wouldnt be really free, because its funding would come out of your taxes. Also, I chose to work in the company I work for because they have great health benefits. Part of the companys advanatge in retaining quality people is the health plan. If everything was covered otherwise, why should I stay where I am? I know many companys are leaning away from paying benefits, and this will likely initiate a national drive to make national health care a reality, I just hope we still get superior care. We don't have to get stuck with a system like Canada, and I don't think it's possible with the political makeup of this country that that will ever happen. The fact is that we are the only industrialized country in the world without universal health care. There are systems that do incorporate some sort of private component to their universal schemes.The fact is this: we have the most expensive, wasteful health care system BY FAR. We outspend the next closest nation by double and can't even figure out how to cover everyone at the same time. We DO NOT have a clear advantage in quality of care. We DO NOT have the longest life expectancy (far from it).And employers will find ways to make itself attractive to employees. By that logic we could make other essential services, like running water and heating, available ONLY to people in certain jobs. That would be QUITE an incentive.And that example can also run the other way. Let's say you've been working at a job you aren't happy with. You are looking for new opportunites. You have health insurance. You have a kid and he's diagnosed with a chronic illness. Your dream job become available and they don't offer helath insurance. They pay little at first. It's a risky opportunity that could pay off big. you are wiling to tkae less money but you can't because of your kid. The health insurance system has just limited your job opportunities. You know, you don't even need to have a sick kid for this example to work. Who would be willing to gamble with their kid's health like that?There are a lot of stories out there from countries that have implemented universal health care badly. There are more stories where it's working well.

TheMojoPin

12-17-2006, 06:04 PM

sr71blackbird wrote: I still think we get better doctors when they are financially motivated to be better.  Well, by that thinking, we should have the best medical system and health care providers in the world.We don't.Not even close.

sr71blackbird

12-17-2006, 06:10 PM

TheMojoPin wrote: sr71blackbird wrote: I still think we get better doctors when they are financially motivated to be better.  Well, by that thinking, we should have the best medical system and health care providers in the world.We don't.Not even close.Youve GOT to be kidding.  Everyone in the world wishes they were in the US for medical care.  It is not "perfect", but I doubt there is any socialized medicine that comes anywhere near it.

HBox

12-17-2006, 06:20 PM

sr71blackbird wrote: TheMojoPin wrote: sr71blackbird wrote: I still think we get better doctors when they are financially motivated to be better. Well, by that thinking, we should have the best medical system and health care providers in the world.We don't.Not even close.Youve GOT to be kidding. Everyone in the world wishes they were in the US for medical care. It is not "perfect", but I doubt there is any socialized medicine that comes anywhere near it. In 2000 the World Health Organization ranked out health care system 36th in the world. Places like the Czech Republic have lower infant mortality rates than we do. If you are born in Japan you can expect to not only live longer, but have 5 more healthy and productive years than someone born here.

Gvac

12-17-2006, 06:21 PM

TheMojoPin

12-17-2006, 06:28 PM

HBox wrote: sr71blackbird wrote: TheMojoPin wrote: sr71blackbird wrote: I still think we get better doctors when they are financially motivated to be better. Well, by that thinking, we should have the best medical system and health care providers in the world.We don't.Not even close.Youve GOT to be kidding. Everyone in the world wishes they were in the US for medical care. It is not "perfect", but I doubt there is any socialized medicine that comes anywhere near it. In 2000 the World Health Organization ranked out health care system 36th in the world. Places like the Czech Republic have lower infant mortality rates than we do. If you are born in Japan you can expect to not only live longer, but have 5 more healthy and productive years than someone born here.Exactly.sr71, what were you even basing the part of your post I bolded on in the first place?

Yerdaddy

12-18-2006, 02:26 AM

sr71blackbird wrote: TheMojoPin wrote: sr71blackbird wrote: I still think we get better doctors when they are financially motivated to be better.  Well, by that thinking, we should have the best medical system and health care providers in the world.We don't.Not even close.Youve GOT to be kidding.  Everyone in the world wishes they were in the US for medical care.  It is not "perfect", but I doubt there is any socialized medicine that comes anywhere near it.  Several times groups of Europeans have sat around pissing and moaning about their health care systems. When they finish they just point at me and laugh.

A.J.

12-18-2006, 02:43 AM

Remember: what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.