My only exceptions to the Death Penalty [Archive]

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busybeeman

03-11-2007, 08:57 AM

Generally, I am opposed to the death penalty.  However, there are two exceptions I can think of.  If anyone hurts a child or if anyone hurts a senior citizen, I'm all for the death penalty (enforced and  excecuted by the family or friends of the victim  in question...I don't trust the government at all).  Here is an instance where I would like to get my hands on the criminal:<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070311/ap_on_re_us/elderly_robbed;_ylt=AntUvL3WLYOsHAN_Ay0bvL9vzwcF">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070311/ap_on_re_us/elderly_robbed;_ylt=AntUvL3WLYOsHAN_Ay0bvL9vzwcF</a>

Team_Ramrod

03-11-2007, 09:04 AM

Surprise, surprise... Another link to a story.Do you have an original thought?Send me a link with the answer...

nevnut

03-11-2007, 09:18 AM

How about the guy who breaks into your home while you are away on a business trip, takes your loved one into the basement, brutally rapes and murders them while your children are quietly asleep in their beds in their upstairs bedrooms.

KnoxHarrington

03-11-2007, 09:27 AM

nevnut wrote: How about the guy who breaks into your home while you are away on a business trip, takes your loved one into the basement, brutally rapes and murders them while your children are quietly asleep in their beds in their upstairs bedrooms.

If that would immediately reverse time and space so that the event never took place in the first place, sure, go for it.

Otherwise, I can't see how it helps. It's empty, hollow vengeance. And what if DNA evidence pops up proving that the person who did it is still out there? Your crime is not avenged, and an innocent person is either dead or has spent years on Death Row.

sailor

03-11-2007, 09:37 AM

Jujubees2

03-11-2007, 10:17 AM

Let me start by saying I am opposed to the death penalty.  But one of the problems with your suggestion Busybee, is that at what age does one go from being a child to an adult and at what age does one become a senior citizen?And please, stop all this, "well if one of your loved one got raped and brutally murdered you would want the death penalty" crap.  Yes, emotionally most people would feel that way.  But the law should not be ruled by emotions.

lleeder

03-11-2007, 10:21 AM

Is 14 still a child? Is 64 a senior citizen? I need to know these answers before we continue.

busybeeman

03-12-2007, 04:15 AM

sailor wrote: The Midnight Ramrod wrote: Surprise, surprise... Another link to a story.Do you have an original thought?Send me a link with the answer... eh, now you're protesting just to protest. Yeah.  He just a bad ole mean ole troll.  He cain't hep it.  He sick.<img src="http://www1.ecxmall.com/stores/familyestore/catalog/Tweety%20Bird%20angel.jpg" border="0" width="313" height="425" />

nevnut

03-12-2007, 04:24 AM

KnoxHarrington wrote: nevnut wrote: How about the guy who breaks into your home while you are away on a business trip, takes your loved one into the basement, brutally rapes and murders them while your children are quietly asleep in their beds in their upstairs bedrooms.  If that would immediately reverse time and space so that the event never took place in the first place, sure, go for it. Otherwise, I can't see how it helps. It's empty, hollow vengeance. And what if DNA evidence pops up proving that the person who did it is still out there? Your crime is not avenged, and an innocent person is either dead or has spent years on Death Row. I'm only in favor of the death penalty when there is DNA evidence proofing that the suspect comitted the crimes.  I believe any person who is on death row without DNA evidence should have thier cases retried if DNA is available or have thier sentences reduced to life.I'm sorry that I didn't post that in my previous post.

busybeeman

03-12-2007, 04:33 AM

I'm only in favor of the death penalty when there is DNA evidence proofing that the suspect comitted the crimes.  I believe any person who is on death row without DNA evidence should have thier cases retried if DNA is available or have thier sentences reduced to life.I'm sorry that I didn't post that in my previous post.DNA evidence is useful.  So's video.  So's audio.  So's eyewitness (more than one person).  And, for the record, let me clarify my earlier statement.  I ain't just talking about murder as a death punishable offense.  If anybody hurts a senior citizen or a child, I'm for the family and/or friends being legally able to process justice...in they own way (to quote John Lee Hooker in "Jesse James")

Dougie Brootal

03-12-2007, 04:45 AM

busybeeman wrote: I'm only in favor of the death penalty when there is DNA evidence proofing that the suspect comitted the crimes.  I believe any person who is on death row without DNA evidence should have thier cases retried if DNA is available or have thier sentences reduced to life.I'm sorry that I didn't post that in my previous post.DNA evidence is useful.  So's video.  So's audio.  So's eyewitness (more than one person).  And, for the record, let me clarify my earlier statement.  I ain't just talking about murder as a death punishable offense.  If anybody hurts a senior citizen or a child, I'm for the family and/or friends being legally able to process justice...in they own way (to quote John Lee Hooker in "Jesse James")its a nice thought that the family could exact revenge but im sure it would violate the constitution. cuz i know i would punish a motherfucker cruelly and unusually!  and i think this is your second sensible thread, so please make more like this so i can stop hating you!

burrben

03-12-2007, 04:58 AM

101? that's what you get for being a burden to society. go to a home

Golfman

03-12-2007, 05:03 AM

I'm not sure that I am a death penalty guy.  I believe that death is work lft for the maker.  i do, on the other hand, believe in SEVERE PUNISHMENT of any kind for wrong doings.  These raping killing M.f.r's should face the rest of their lives under severe pain and regret.  That's revenge, don't give them the easy out to eternity.

busybeeman

03-12-2007, 05:04 AM

burrben wrote: 101? that's what you get for being a burden to society. go to a home I don't think Maude the Old Broad appreciates your sentiments.<a href="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/52/Topic/57685/page/Okay___Cue_up_the_Rocky_Music.htm">http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/52/Topic/57685/page/Okay___Cue_up_the_Rocky_Music.htm</a><img src="http://randyelrod.typepad.com/ethos/images/angry_old_woman.jpg" border="0" width="200" height="239" />

Dougie Brootal

03-12-2007, 05:22 AM

busybeeman wrote: burrben wrote: 101? that's what you get for being a burden to society. go to a home I don't think Maude the Old Broad appreciates your sentiments.<a href="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/52/Topic/57685/page/Okay___Cue_up_the_Rocky_Music.htm">http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/52/Topic/57685/page/Okay___Cue_up_the_Rocky_Music.htm</a><img src="http://randyelrod.typepad.com/ethos/images/angry_old_woman.jpg" border="0" width="200" height="239" />ok. nevermind, you just ruined it by making no sense....AGAIN.

ralphbxny

03-12-2007, 05:25 AM

This guys a pussy. IT took 3 or 4 punches to knock out a 100 year old woman.  My next reaction was how many 100 year old women can you beat up. Royal rumble style..one a minute!

MrPink

03-12-2007, 05:27 AM

<img src="http://djorsky06.free.fr/Kill'emall.jpg" border="0" width="300" height="300" />I'm all for the death penalty. Like the Bible says, "eye for an eye."

MrPink

03-12-2007, 05:28 AM

ralphbxny wrote: This guys a pussy. IT took 3 or 4 punches to knock out a 100 year old woman.  My next reaction was how many 100 year old women can you beat up. Royal rumble style..one a minute! I wanna do that!

busybeeman

03-12-2007, 05:36 AM

MrPink wrote: ralphbxny wrote: This guys a pussy. IT took 3 or 4 punches to knock out a 100 year old woman.  My next reaction was how many 100 year old women can you beat up. Royal rumble style..one a minute! I wanna do that!Beat up my woman?  That ain't right.  I'm packing, Sonny.  From my cold dead hands...<img src="http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1340000/images/_1341315_heston300.jpg" border="0" width="315" height="180" />

SinA

03-12-2007, 05:47 AM

lleeder wrote: Is 14 still a child? Is 64 a senior citizen? I need to know these answers before we continue. if i had a nickel for every time i said that...

Snacks

03-12-2007, 05:55 AM

MrPink wrote: <img src="http://djorsky06.free.fr/Kill'emall.jpg" border="0" width="300" height="300" />I'm all for the death penalty. Like the Bible says, "eye for an eye."If your going to follow the bible it also says "though shall not kill" No man has the right to take another mans life! 

This message was edited by Snacks on 3-12-07 @ 10:00 AM

EliSnow

03-12-2007, 06:01 AM

Snacks wrote: MrPink wrote: <img src="http://djorsky06.free.fr/Kill'emall.jpg" border="0" width="300" height="300" />I'm all for the death penalty. Like the Bible says, "eye for an eye."If your going to follow the bible it also say "though shall not kill" No man has the right to take another mans life! This message was edited by Snacks on 3-12-07 @ 9:56 AM For Christians, the Bible also says:<dl><dd>"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye,l and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." Matthew 5:38-42.</dd></dl>

busybeeman

03-12-2007, 06:02 AM

Snacks wrote: MrPink wrote: <img src="http://djorsky06.free.fr/Kill'emall.jpg" border="0" width="300" height="300" />I'm all for the death penalty. Like the Bible says, "eye for an eye."If your going to follow the bible it also says "though shall not kill" No man has the right to take another mans life! This message was edited by Snacks on 3-12-07 @ 10:00 AM The government NEVER has the right to take another person's life.  But, the way I see's it, if you hurt a child or a senior citizen, then you must needs face justice.  Give that punk who beat down the 101-year-old lady to me.  I'll gladly put on the black hood and deal wisely with him.  First off, I tie him down.  Second off, I start with a ball-peen hammer on the knuckles of his hands...and toes...

MrPink

03-12-2007, 06:05 AM

sailor

03-12-2007, 06:14 AM

sailor

03-12-2007, 06:16 AM

sailor wrote: Snacks wrote: MrPink wrote: <img src="http://djorsky06.free.fr/Kill'emall.jpg" border="0" width="300" height="300" />I'm all for the death penalty. Like the Bible says, "eye for an eye."If your going to follow the bible it also says "though shall not kill" No man has the right to take another mans life!  This message was edited by Snacks on 3-12-07 @ 10:00 AM i believe the sentiment is closer to thall shalt not commit murder. i'm no expert, but i think i heard that that's closer to the original language. i could be wrong.  would have edited, but that's not working for me.  i did a google search and the first <a href="http://www.biblestudy.org/question/notkill.html" target="_blank">link</a> i came across supported my recollection.

Snacks

03-12-2007, 06:22 AM

sailor wrote: sailor wrote: Snacks wrote: MrPink wrote: <img src="http://djorsky06.free.fr/Kill'emall.jpg" border="0" width="300" height="300" />I'm all for the death penalty. Like the Bible says, "eye for an eye."If your going to follow the bible it also says "though shall not kill" No man has the right to take another mans life! This message was edited by Snacks on 3-12-07 @ 10:00 AM i believe the sentiment is closer to thall shalt not commit murder. i'm no expert, but i think i heard that that's closer to the original language. i could be wrong.  would have edited, but that's not working for me.  i did a google search and the first <a href="http://www.biblestudy.org/question/notkill.html" target="_blank">link</a> i came across supported my recollection. how did this support your recollection? It says "though shall not kill is better understood to mean you shall not murder". But it is still written as" though shall not kill"  Please explain the Sixth commandment which states Thou shall not kill.<div align="center"><a href="javascript:window.print()"><img src="http://null/print.gif" border="0" alt="Print This Page" width="16" height="16" align="absMiddle" /></a> <a href="javascript:window.print()">Print Page</a></div><table border="0" width="300"><tbody><tr><td> </td></tr></tbody></table>Q. I am studying the 10 commandments. Please explain the Sixth commandment "thou shall not kill." A. The commandment "thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder," most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way. According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings, not to killing animals or plant life for food. God gave animals to mankind for his use (Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4). But, this does not mean that humans have the right mistreat animals and the environment (Genesis 2:15; Deuteronomy 22:6-7; 25:4; Proverbs 12:10). Under the Old Covenant God allowed the Israelites to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21) and adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-24). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war (Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill each other, and he made provisions for this (Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13). The primary reason God hates murder is that out of all creation, only human are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:4-6). Even before the codification of the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai the murder of other human beings was wrong (Genesis 4:8-12; 4:23-24; 9:4-6; Exodus 1:16-17). While on earth, Jesus spoke out against murder (Matthew 5:21-26; Mark 10:17-19). We also see in the writings of Paul (Romans 1:18, 29-32; 13:8-10; Galatians 5:19-21), James (James 2:8-11; 4:1-3), Peter (1 Peter 4:15-16) and John (Revelation 9:20-21; 21:7-8; 22:14-15) that murder is wrong.

Dougie Brootal

03-12-2007, 06:24 AM

Snacks wrote: sailor wrote: sailor wrote: Snacks wrote: MrPink wrote: <img src="http://djorsky06.free.fr/Kill'emall.jpg" border="0" width="300" height="300" />I'm all for the death penalty. Like the Bible says, "eye for an eye."If your going to follow the bible it also says "though shall not kill" No man has the right to take another mans life! This message was edited by Snacks on 3-12-07 @ 10:00 AM i believe the sentiment is closer to thall shalt not commit murder. i'm no expert, but i think i heard that that's closer to the original language. i could be wrong.  would have edited, but that's not working for me.  i did a google search and the first <a href="http://www.biblestudy.org/question/notkill.html" target="_blank">link</a> i came across supported my recollection. how did this support your recollection? It says "though shall not kill is better understood to mean you shall not murder". <strike>But it is still written as" though shall not kill" </strike>you answered your own question.

TheMojoPin

03-12-2007, 06:30 AM

This is the 3rd site I've seen a thread about this scumbag, and it's weirdly amusing how people get mad saying they can't believe what he did, like he's somehow "worse" than all the other "nice" muggers out there.  If you look at it logically, he's probably the smartest mugger of them all, except for the whole camera thing.

sailor

03-12-2007, 06:54 AM

douggrasso wrote: Snacks wrote: sailor wrote: sailor wrote: Snacks wrote: MrPink wrote: <img src="http://djorsky06.free.fr/Kill'emall.jpg" border="0" width="300" height="300" />I'm all for the death penalty. Like the Bible says, "eye for an eye."If your going to follow the bible it also says "though shall not kill" No man has the right to take another mans life! This message was edited by Snacks on 3-12-07 @ 10:00 AM i believe the sentiment is closer to thall shalt not commit murder. i'm no expert, but i think i heard that that's closer to the original language. i could be wrong. would have edited, but that's not working for me. i did a google search and the first <a href="http://www.biblestudy.org/question/notkill.html" target="_blank">link</a> i came across supported my recollection. how did this support your recollection? It says "though shall not kill is better understood to mean you shall not murder". <strike>But it is still written as" though shall not kill" </strike>you answered your own question. quote: is better understood to mean "you shall not murder," most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way. According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life.the bold-face is mine, other than that no changes were made.  for the record obviously this guy doesn't deserve the death penalty (before someone gets kooky).

busybeeman

03-12-2007, 07:25 AM

quote: is better understood to mean "you shall not murder," most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way. According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life.the bold-face is mine, other than that no changes were made.  for the record obviously this guy doesn't deserve the death penalty (before someone gets kooky). Correction.  He doesn't deserve the death penalty.  He deserves torture.  Then, the death penalty by family members of the old lady.  I'll volunteer and be a grand-nephew by proxy. <img src="http://hqphoto.minghui.org/photo_high/allimages/liujun3.jpg" border="0" width="675" height="425" />

MrPink

03-12-2007, 09:23 AM

You don't fuckin punish a crime in a way more severe than the crime. He hurt a couple old women, that doesn't warrant the death penalty. That's like in Saudi where they would cut off a thief's hand.

busybeeman

03-12-2007, 09:24 AM

MrPink wrote: You don't fuckin punish a crime in a way more severe than the crime. He hurt a couple old women, that doesn't warrant the death penalty. That's like in Saudi where they would cut off a thief's hand. Exactly.  Hurt kid or old folks   =  DEATHSimple equation.

Dougie Brootal

03-12-2007, 09:25 AM

god, i hope he moves there!

busybeeman

03-12-2007, 09:44 AM

busybeeman wrote: MrPink wrote: You don't fuckin punish a crime in a way more severe than the crime. He hurt a couple old women, that doesn't warrant the death penalty. That's like in Saudi where they would cut off a thief's hand. Exactly.  Hurt kid or old folks   =  DEATHSimple equation.<img src="http://www.tf.org/images/covers/HAng.jpg" border="0" width="175" height="251" />

badmonkey

03-12-2007, 11:47 AM

So I guess we can put you down as for waterboarding, sleep deprivation, and other assorted "torture" of terrorists? Badmonkey 

This message was edited by badmonkey on 3-12-07 @ 3:48 PM

sailor

03-12-2007, 11:51 AM

TheMojoPin wrote: This is the 3rd site I've seen a thread about this scumbag, and it's weirdly amusing how people get mad saying they can't believe what he did, like he's somehow "worse" than all the other "nice" muggers out there. If you look at it logically, he's probably the smartest mugger of them all, except for the whole camera thing. you seriously don't see this as worse than mugging a 25 year old guy?  smarter?  yes.  worse?  yes.

TheMojoPin

03-12-2007, 12:20 PM

sailor wrote: TheMojoPin wrote: This is the 3rd site I've seen a thread about this scumbag, and it's weirdly amusing how people get mad saying they can't believe what he did, like he's somehow "worse" than all the other "nice" muggers out there. If you look at it logically, he's probably the smartest mugger of them all, except for the whole camera thing. you seriously don't see this as worse than mugging a 25 year old guy?  smarter?  yes.  worse?  yes. My point is that it's a really subjective type of "worse."  A mugger is a mugger...they're still deciding to hold people up and steal their belongings.  It's not like he makes the "good muggers" look bad.

keithy_19

03-12-2007, 01:09 PM

I'm for the death penalty, but only when it can be totally proven through DNA evidence or other means. For instance, Timothy McVeigh deserved to die in my opinion. It may not heal the wounds of the families that lost family members and were affected by his acts, but I don't think torturing him would either.

busybeeman

03-12-2007, 01:21 PM

badmonkey wrote: So I guess we can put you down as for waterboarding, sleep deprivation, and other assorted "torture" of terrorists? Badmonkey This message was edited by badmonkey on 3-12-07 @ 3:48 PM Naw.  I ain't talking Abu Gharaib<img src="http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/steve_bell/2004/05/11/RUMMY.jpg" border="0" width="512" height="405" />I'm talking torture then dispatching criminals who prey on children and the elderly.  This, by the way, NOT to be carried out by the government (which can never be trusted) but by the families of the victim.

TheMojoPin

03-12-2007, 01:24 PM

How do you manage to suck just a little bit more with each post?  PLEASE STOP WITH THE POINTLESS PICTURES.

busybeeman

03-12-2007, 01:32 PM

Do I hear a muffled whimper from the bottom of the basement grave?It puts the lotion on its skin.  It does whatever it's told.<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~dcumbo/silence_lambs_06.jpeg" border="0" width="215" height="242" />

busybeeman

03-14-2007, 08:04 AM

sailor wrote: TheMojoPin wrote: This is the 3rd site I've seen a thread about this scumbag, and it's weirdly amusing how people get mad saying they can't believe what he did, like he's somehow "worse" than all the other "nice" muggers out there. If you look at it logically, he's probably the smartest mugger of them all, except for the whole camera thing. you seriously don't see this as worse than mugging a 25 year old guy?  smarter?  yes.  worse?  yes. According to New York polls, folks want this guy's head:<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/elderly_woman_robbed;_ylt=AtMMq4KbK8RptdFO0OmcsJED W7oF">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/elderly_woman_robbed;_ylt=AtMMq4KbK8RptdFO0OmcsJED W7oF</a>

Dougie Brootal

03-14-2007, 08:32 AM

<img src="http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g130/douggrasso/stfub.jpg" border="0" width="600" height="467" />

This message was edited by douggrasso on 3-14-07 @ 12:41 PM

sailor

03-14-2007, 08:35 AM

douggrasso wrote: <img src="http://www.siteofsteve.net/battle/stfu/stfu_whistle.jpg" border="0" width="640" height="512" /> that guy was the best!!

busybeeman

03-14-2007, 11:47 AM

douggrasso wrote: <img src="http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g130/douggrasso/stfub.jpg" border="0" width="600" height="467" />This message was edited by douggrasso on 3-14-07 @ 12:41 PM Oh.  I get it.  You're putting daughter to sleep.  Nice dad, you.<img src="http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/4/43/180px-Silencelamp7.jpg" border="0" width="179" height="255" />

Knowledged_one

03-14-2007, 11:49 AM

Oh i get it, since you were told to stop merely posting links you are back to posting pictures of the puts the lotion on the skin guyYou have taken posting to an artform

ChimneyFish

03-14-2007, 12:08 PM

The Midnight Ramrod wrote: Surprise, surprise... Another link to a story.Do you have an original thought?Send me a link with the answer...Sorry to add nothing to the thread, but Goddamn that was funny.<img src="/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/happy.gif" border="0" width="20" height="20" />

Dougie Brootal

03-14-2007, 12:11 PM

busybeeman wrote: douggrasso wrote: <img src="http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g130/douggrasso/stfub.jpg" border="0" width="600" height="467" />no, but seriously, ill try to remember to do it to yours when i abduct, rape and murder her.

This message was edited by douggrasso on 3-14-07 @ 4:21 PM

ralphbxny

03-20-2007, 12:10 PM

douggrasso wrote: busybeeman wrote: douggrasso wrote: <img src="http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g130/douggrasso/stfub.jpg" border="0" width="600" height="467" />no, but seriously, ill try to remember to do it to yours when i abduct, rape and murder her.This message was edited by douggrasso on 3-14-07 @ 4:21 PM HAWT!!!

high fly

03-21-2007, 06:40 PM

nevnut wrote: KnoxHarrington wrote: nevnut wrote: How about the guy who breaks into your home while you are away on a business trip, takes your loved one into the basement, brutally rapes and murders them while your children are quietly asleep in their beds in their upstairs bedrooms.  If that would immediately reverse time and space so that the event never took place in the first place, sure, go for it. Otherwise, I can't see how it helps. It's empty, hollow vengeance. And what if DNA evidence pops up proving that the person who did it is still out there? Your crime is not avenged, and an innocent person is either dead or has spent years on Death Row. I'm only in favor of the death penalty when there is DNA evidence proofing that the suspect comitted the crimes.  Sorry, but DNA evidence is not the magic solution some think it is.I know of  2 cases in Virginia where DNA evidence was wrongly used by the authorities.Blokes at the crime lab fucked up. One was a case that sent a guy to prison for something like 13 years before it was straightened out.The other one involved a couple of teenage girls kidnapped and murdered in Spotsylvania 6 or 8 years ago.The fuzz went to the crime lab seeking a match for some fibers on a blanket and the lab did their best to help out by claiming a match when it wasn't even close. Really a bad scene when the Fredericksburg Free Lance Star published the fibers being compared that allegedly "matched." I doubt these are the only such cases in history.

This message was edited by high fly on 3-21-07 @ 10:41 PM