Will There Ever Come A Day....?

[Gvac]

This is something I've been thinking about for quite some time now, and the ever-widening chasm in our country has me contemplating it more and more - - do you think the day will ever come when the United States of America is declared a failed experiment?

Let me assure all of you that you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who believes in the ideals my country was founded upon more than me. The words of the Founding Fathers still inspire awe in me to this day, and I marvel at their brilliance. When I see the rancor and divisiveness between the people of this country, however, it makes me wonder if it's possible to live up to the ideals.

The major political parties, peoples from different ethnic backgrounds, various religious leaders; they're all at each other's throats. Our country is resented for a variety of reasons all around the world. The population has become so inured to political corruption that it's just viewed as "business as usual" and no one thinks they can do anything about it.

I'm looking for some sincere and honest input here. Do you think the United States will ever live up to its promise or will it all come crashing down one day?

[patsopinion]

yes

rome was considered the greatest empire ever
they had the best gov/best weapons/most influence

[Midkiff]

It will all come crashing down one day, as much as I would hate that.

[LilLibra]

Yes it will come crashing down eventually. Everything does.

I wouldn't say the US is a failed experiment because in the grand scheme of history, it's still a very young country. It's got a lot of learning and maturing to do before it gets to the point where it knows what works and what doesn't. We're the fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on your outlook) bunch that get to live through the awkward adolescence of America.

[Furtherman]

Yes.

It is as inevitable as the weather changing. But major civilizations will come and go and humanity will struggle on until the roving packs of nomads disappear under the sand.

Here is an excellent book on how we'll eventually go. Not in our lifetime, nor our children's. The U.S. is only... what? 230 years old?

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/a/a5/200px-Collapse_book.jpg

We're a baby comparied to other countries... and with issues such as religion, transfat foods, political correctness, online gambling and sex still bothering our courts and leaders today... we're still acting like a baby.

[ChimneyFish]

While I would definitely agree that the Founding Fathers really did have an absolutely brilliant idea, I think it was doomed to fail from the start.
Even though it was all that time ago, it seems like society in general had a little more couth back then.(I'm talking in a very broad sense, overlooking a great many bigger issues)

The average American(forget about the average human) has not evolved enough to really make a free society work.
The power of greed(and not just money. More of a "alpha male" thing) is encoded too deep into our genetic makeup.
Racism(which I truly believe is an animalistic trait which shows very little signs of intelligence) is too prevalent in our society for this to last much longer.
Religous intolerance is rising everyday.
All these years through history, and on a societal level, with all our advances in medicine and technology, we have evolved into little more than extremely intelligent chimps.


America won't last much longer. I don't think the world will last too much longer(as far as the human race), for that matter.
I think the climate of the current world is starting to show that.
It probably won't happen in our lifetimes, but I think it's going to happen sooner than most think.

[sailor]

problems here are found in all other countries of the world. i'd say they're found in greater degrees elsewhere.

[Swannee]

I think this country peaked during WW 2 and since then has been in a steady decline, that will probably end in its demise. Both parties are now run by corporations and the people of our country are no longer a priority. I am a christian, but this Bush administration has covered self in the cross and the flag in order to basically ignore the constitution and what the founding fathers stood for(and like a fool I voted for him twice). Sadly though I do not see our country returning to the path that it was founded on

[DonInNC]

Do you think the United States will ever live up to its promise or will it all come crashing down one day?

Both. While the US may not last forever, it's contributions to civilization have already been invaluable. What our European cousins simply philosophized about, the US actually put into practice. Beyond giving the World capitalism and a working democratic model, the US was the primary force behind the industrial revolution. Without US influence, command economies would be the norm. If it all ended tomorrow, these contributions would make the US a successful experiment. Are we headed for the end? Yeah, I can see it happening.

[Fez4PrezN2008]

The fact that we can have rancor and political divisiveness here and still manage to kinda function is a tribute to the system in itself.

"In Soviet Russia, road forks you" Y.Smirnoff as misquoted on Family Guy

[sailor]

The fact that we can have rancor and political divisiveness here and still manage to kinda function is a tribute to the system in itself.

"In Soviet Russia, road forks you" Y.Smirnoff as misquoted on Family Guy

wow, almost got some white-type there.

[underdog]

wow, almost got some white-type there.

It disappears when you quote it.

[scottinnj]

America as a country will disappear, I can't tell you when, or how but eventuall she will be a part of history. The experiment will go on though, we have freed millions of people around the world from oppressive governments-most of them without firing a single shot. The idea of freedom, and the demonstration we have given on how much we as a nation of citizens desire it, and what price we are willing to keep it has shown those still under the fist of tyrannical governments that what we have, they can have and they will take our experiment and go with it on their own.
America is the initial drop in the lake of humanity-the ripples we have created will spread out for thousands and thousands of years.

[patsopinion]

America as a country will disappear, I can't tell you when, or how but eventuall she will be a part of history. The experiment will go on though, we have freed millions of people around the world from oppressive governments-most of them without firing a single shot. The idea of freedom, and the demonstration we have given on how much we as a nation of citizens desire it, and what price we are willing to keep it has shown those still under the fist of tyrannical governments that what we have, they can have and they will take our experiment and go with it on their own.
America is the initial drop in the lake of humanity-the ripples we have created will spread out for thousands and thousands of years.

it will be decisive political issues
basically it will boil down to city states and hay seeds
like

sf, la, ny, boston and others with large educated populations will break away
and they hayseeds will have the middle of the country, which will further be divided until there will be no virtually no political opposition.
people will move amongst these centers based on political ideologies and not for economic reasons
(utah mormons, sf- gays ect)


city states with states with larger states in the middle




as far as the ripples i dont know how much will really follow that hasnt already been instated or started
and our idea that can westernize the muslim world is pure ignorance

[Marc with a c]

no.
http://www.fakemccoy.com/CapAm-web.jpg

[BLZBUBBA]

It's about economic power. Britain used to be the biggest power, then we took that role. Now that role seems to be shifting to Asia. Will we ultimately fail? That's hard to say. Doubt it. But will we maintain our role as a lone superpower? Probably for the next few decades but then China will probably become the next superpower. Don't forget...They're the ones financing all the debt our country has been running up. We OWE them...bigtime. Pretty hard to hammer out favorable trade deals with a nation that's your banker.

One wildcard could be a nasty nasty war. China decides to move on some smaller Asian countries and we have to respond? Ugliness could be down the road. And there are other wildcards. The effects of global warming (should that be real) could affect who's running the show. Food is still kinda important. Some country could also get whacked by a big comet or something. But as it stands I say we're on a fast-track to becoming an England. Still a proud nation...but greatly diminished in power.

[AgnosticJihad]

I think this is inevitable, as it happens to all societies eventually, as has already been pointed out. The founding fathers did indeed have some great ideas and developed political and economic systems that function pretty well, I think it is a combination of ignoring their ideas and loyalty to their ideas.

I believe it was George Washington who denounced political parties, and it was Jefferson who warned about what we call corporations. They saw both as being highly detrimental to democracy. Interestingly enough, it seems that political parties and corporations are the biggest stagnating and corruptive elements in our political system. I also believe it was Jefferson who expressed the idea that the Constitution should be re-written every 20 years or so, in order to adapt to changes in society and the world at large. There seems to be a sort of blind allegiance (for lack of a better term) to what they established, a total unwillingness to alter the institutions they built, even when it is evident there are flaws that need to be corrected. Any society that cannot adapt to change is doomed to fail.

[BLZBUBBA]

The founding fathers also warned against getting involved in foreign entanglements. Iraq? Over a trillion dollars? Worth it?

[FUNKMAN]

i just hope my kids have died of old age before the shit hits the fan...

i just don't think grandkids would be so lucky

some people think that living far away from majopr cities would give them a better chance to live on after nuclear attacks. it makes some sense but what type of life will you have from that point on?

[BLZBUBBA]

I hear comics making jokes about trailer parks getting hit by tornadoes and the hayseeds scrambling...whatever. I live next to tornado alley, not in the middle but kinda on the edge. And not in a trailer by the way. But I see the tornado threat and the nuke threat cities face as cancelling each other out. I can see a major city getting destroyed by a nuke sometime down the road. And hopefully it will be just one. There's nothing around here worth blowing up. I'll take my chances with the weather.

And what kind of life will we have? We'll still be growing food and raising livestock. Just hope NYC isn't the terrorist target but it's probably #1 on their wish-list along with DC...kinda like 9-11. If NYC gets hit that probably does it for the Ron and Fez Show and that might push this hayseed over the edge. I'd have to go square-dances and rodeos...I guess.

[MrPink]

I think this is inevitable, as it happens to all societies eventually, as has already been pointed out. The founding fathers did indeed have some great ideas and developed political and economic systems that function pretty well, I think it is a combination of ignoring their ideas and loyalty to their ideas.

I believe it was George Washington who denounced political parties, and it was Jefferson who warned about what we call corporations. They saw both as being highly detrimental to democracy. Interestingly enough, it seems that political parties and corporations are the biggest stagnating and corruptive elements in our political system. I also believe it was Jefferson who expressed the idea that the Constitution should be re-written every 20 years or so, in order to adapt to changes in society and the world at large. There seems to be a sort of blind allegiance (for lack of a better term) to what they established, a total unwillingness to alter the institutions they built, even when it is evident there are flaws that need to be corrected. Any society that cannot adapt to change is doomed to fail.

I think he said that there should be a revolution every 20 years. I don't have time to do research, maybe later tomorrow if I remember.

[hedges]

yes

rome was considered the greatest empire ever
they had the best gov/best weapons/most influence

Although there is still time, I am pessimistic.

[bobrobot]

I predict a religious war that will mirror the insanity in the Middle East, fundamentalists vs. rational people & the rational people lose cuz of all the politicians who are suking the asses of the fundamentalists & will assisst them so they can keep their cushy jobs, cuz if We (the rationals) take over, they are done for!!! & by done for, I mean superstition out of government.

http://www.bama.ua.edu/~treut001/misclist/punkrock/pictures/insurrection.jpg

[A.J.]

Consider this: if this country were so bad, or so doomed, people wouldn't be risking their lives to sneak in. For whatever faults we have, this is still the best country in the world and it serves as a model for others.

[bobrobot]

Consider this: if this country were so bad, or so doomed, people wouldn't be risking their lives to sneak in. For whatever faults we have, this is still the best country in the world and it serves as a model for others.

I agree wholeheartedly, but we are headed in the absolutely wrong direction w/ almost every policy on the board, & these pointless anti-Islamic wars are bankrupting us & showing how unprepared & ill equipped the US military is. We were far better off as a martial enigma than to show our vulnerability by slowly losing a pointless war. I hope things improve when we have a regime change here, but the damage caused by Bu$h's wrecklessness will linger for decades.

[SatCam]

It's lasted 230 years

here's to another 230

:drunk:

[Bob Impact]

"Yes, this is an age of moral crisis. Yes, you are bearing punishment for your evil. But it is not man who is now on trial and it is not human nature that will take the blame. It is your moral code that's through, this time. Your moral code has reached its climax, the blind alley at the end of its course. And if you wish to go on living, what you now need is not to return to morality–you who have never known any–but to discover it.
You have heard no concepts of morality but the mystical or the social. You have been taught no morality but the mystical or the social. you have been taught that morality is a code of behavior imposed on you by whim, the whim of a supernatural power or the whim of society, to serve God's purpose or your neighbor's welfare, to please an authority beyond the grave or else next door–but not to serve your life or pleasure.
...
Whatever else they fought about, it was against man's mind that all your moralists have stood united. It was man's mind that all their schemes and systems were intended to despoil and destroy. Now choose to perish or to learn that the anti-mind is the anti-life."
- Ayn Rand, Galt's Speech

I wait for that day.

[MrPink]

We're gonna have to fall apart real quick since the world's gonna end Dec 21, 2012.

[Recyclerz]

I usually take pride in stewing in the murkiest doom & gloom around but I'm much more optimistic than you killjoys about this country. It was the first country based on an idea, and a great idea at that, rather than a country where your tribe just happened to be when they got tired of marauding, settled down, threw up a flag and pretended that their cheese was better than everybody else's. And the idea, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in brilliant shorthand, (when we are living up to our ideals), is open to everybody who wants to buy in and join the team. So we have that going for that for us.

No disrespect intended, but I think GVAC's assumption that there was a "Golden Age" when people were civil and the best intentions always prevailed is a kind of rose colored glasses view of history. There was always conflict between interest groups but the success of this country was that we (they) found ways to accomodate each other without too much violence because there was usually enough money/opportunities to go around. Except for the Civil War, that is. And killing off the Native Americans so we could take their land.

I think the era of America as the most powerful nation/society on the planet is doomed to end, more quickly than necessary due to the policy choices made by the current administration, but it would have to have ended someday anyway. What we should be doing is coming up with new templates to solve the new problems we're facing going forward and I think our failure to do so is the primary cause of the disaffection GVAC is alluding to. I find myself agreeing more and more with those political thinkers/writers who say our current left wing pro-government v. right wing less government model is really designed for a world where the main source of friction was capitalist democracies v. totalitarian command economy states and we need to develop a new world view that addresses the new issues that we have (globalization of the economy, etc.). Right now we're fighting about stuff that doesn't matter much anymore and down deep we know it but we haven't figured out how to stop. Yet.

So for my pithy summary: the end of the American Empire is inevitable. But the takeaway lesson is that even if you don't have the biggest schlong on your block anymore it doesn't have to stop you from getting laid.

[The Blowhard]

There will be no more nations in the future, just corporations! New World Order!

[A.J.]

There will be no more nations in the future, just corporations! New World Order!


"Where have you gone Jonathan E., our corporation turns its lonely eyes to you...woo woo woo..."

http://img.clubic.com/photo/00143358.jpg

[Gvac]

No disrespect intended, but I think GVAC's assumption that there was a "Golden Age" when people were civil and the best intentions always prevailed is a kind of rose colored glasses.

Uhmmm.....where did I say that?

I never stated that a "Golden Age" had passed; I merely postulated that it may not be possible to ever live up to the ideals the country was founded upon.

[Don Stugots]

There will be no more nations in the future, just corporations! New World Order!



http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u125/Don_Stugots/nwo24.jpg

[lleeder]

I think it will fall. You can't be together and on top forever. We try to keep alot of different beliefs all under one banner. Those beliefs and factions will eventually tear us apart for real. I see this Imus thing like a smaller version of the Danish Cartoons. We laugh at other countries ignorance but ignore our own. :furious:

[furie]

entropy's a bitch

[Thomas Merton]

A quick review of Roman history will tell you all you need to know...no ideology can stand the test of time/evolving social mores...

The one and only flaw to the Constitution is the premise that democracy would be based on a LITERATE society...I'm a teacher and the institution of education has failed this country more than any other. It is insanely outdated and inefficient.

[Yerdaddy]

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1175/carveymclaughlinwrongaf3.jpg

"What do you think, Ayn Rand Duran?!"

"Yes, this is an age of moral crisis. Yes, you are bearing punishment for your evil. But it is not man who is now on trial and it is not human nature that will take the blame. It is your moral code that's through, this time. Your moral code has reached its climax, the blind alley at the end of its course. And if you wish to go on living, what you now need is not to return to morality–you who have never known any–but to discover it.
You have heard no concepts of morality but the mystical or the social. You have been taught no morality but the mystical or the social. you have been taught that morality is a code of behavior imposed on you by whim, the whim of a supernatural power or the whim of society, to serve God's purpose or your neighbor's welfare, to please an authority beyond the grave or else next door–but not to serve your life or pleasure.
...
Whatever else they fought about, it was against man's mind that all your moralists have stood united. It was man's mind that all their schemes and systems were intended to despoil and destroy. Now choose to perish or to learn that the anti-mind is the anti-life."
- Ayn Rand, Galt's Speech

I wait for that day.

"Wroooooong!"

[Doomstone]

Woah...an Ayn Rand quote...

I was 18 and stupid too...

[dolemyte]

Call me optimistic, but i dont believe it will fail...In 230 yrs we have made great progress and road bumps aside, appear to be on track to make more...

[feralBoy]

I think america was great at some point. When nathan hale said, "I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country," it was really a testament to what people were willing to do to live in a great and free country. But now what do we have? A country of complacency and hypocrisy. Nobody is willing to stand up for what is right....unless they are somehow to gain from it. It's fucking sickening.

Don't get me wrong, I still think america is the best thing going, but we should be so much better, and it's aggravating to watch us flush freedom down the tube every chance we get. This imus thing, was just the last straw for me.

[ChimneyFish]

I think it will fall. You can't be together and on top forever. We try to keep alot of different beliefs all under one banner. Those beliefs and factions will eventually tear us apart for real. I see this Imus thing like a smaller version of the Danish Cartoons. We laugh at other countries ignorance but ignore our own. :furious:

I think america was great at some point. When nathan hale said, "I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country," it was really a testament to what people were willing to do to live in a great and free country. But now what do we have? A country of complacency and hypocrisy. Nobody is willing to stand up for what is right....unless they are somehow to gain from it. It's fucking sickening.

Don't get me wrong, I still think america is the best thing going, but we should be so much better, and it's aggravating to watch us flush freedom down the tube every chance we get. This imus thing, was just the last straw for me.


Very good points.

[Bob Impact]

Woah...an Ayn Rand quote...

I was 18 and stupid too...

That's odd, I'm 25 and successful.

Reminds me of why I for so long I refused to mention morality in public, there's never a worthwhile discussion, just bromides. And DON'T take that as an attempt to bait you into a discussion. It's not.

[Gvac]

After seeing the kind of power weasels like "Reverend" Al Sharpton and corporate sponsors wield, I'm more convinced than ever that this country will never be what the Founding Fathers envisioned.

[A.J.]

After seeing the kind of power weasels like "Reverend" Al Sharpton and corporate sponsors wield, I'm more convinced than ever that this country will never be what the Founding Fathers envisioned.

"Founding Fathers"? You mean those old, misogonystic, slave-owning crackers?

[landarch]

We're gonna have to fall apart real quick since the world's gonna end Dec 21, 2012.


Yeah, I have been waiting for Dec. 22 2012 ever since I learned about that. Talk about a sigh of relief if we make it to that date.

[Midkiff]

Our country is now on its death bed, thanks to the schwoogies. Al Sharpton is the antichrist, and Jesse Jackson is his demon whore.

[Yerdaddy]

Honestly I was bored in Bali a few days ago and I got to thinking about this question and I busted out the laptop and wrote a huge piece pondering it with Cliff Clavenesque ruminations on all the important elements that make a country great and where we stand on them and how they'll play out for us in the future in relation to possible scenarios for world events. It was a contender for my manifesto. In the end I settled on the idea that we'll be a great nation for a good long while.

But before I could post the damn thing Imus became The New 9-11.

Since you all are my best link to what's happening inside American culture I can't rectify my conclusion with this obsession with Imus. I'm really hoping there's some explaination for the board's obseession with this "issue" like the connection to radio. Please tell me it's something like that and it's not a media feeding frenzy on American TV "news" as well? For the love of Mark Twain, please tell me it's that!

[cupcakelove]

Honestly I was bored in Bali a few days ago and I got to thinking about this question and I busted out the laptop and wrote a huge piece pondering it with Cliff Clavenesque ruminations on all the important elements that make a country great and where we stand on them and how they'll play out for us in the future in relation to possible scenarios for world events. It was a contender for my manifesto. In the end I settled on the idea that we'll be a great nation for a good long while.

But before I could post the damn thing Imus became The New 9-11.

Since you all are my best link to what's happening inside American culture I can't rectify my conclusion with this obsession with Imus. I'm really hoping there's some explaination for the board's obseession with this "issue" like the connection to radio. Please tell me it's something like that and it's not a media feeding frenzy on American TV "news" as well? For the love of Mark Twain, please tell me it's that!

Sorry, but that is the case. I was hoping when they found out who was really the father of Anna Nicole's baby, it would all go away, but not even that was enough to get Imus out of the headlines.

[Gvac]

Honestly I was bored in Bali a few days ago and I got to thinking about this question and I busted out the laptop and wrote a huge piece pondering it with Cliff Clavenesque ruminations on all the important elements that make a country great and where we stand on them and how they'll play out for us in the future in relation to possible scenarios for world events. It was a contender for my manifesto. In the end I settled on the idea that we'll be a great nation for a good long while.

But before I could post the damn thing Imus became The New 9-11.

Since you all are my best link to what's happening inside American culture I can't rectify my conclusion with this obsession with Imus. I'm really hoping there's some explaination for the board's obseession with this "issue" like the connection to radio. Please tell me it's something like that and it's not a media feeding frenzy on American TV "news" as well? For the love of Mark Twain, please tell me it's that!

Daddy, you have NO idea. It's dominated the radio, TV, and print media all week. Sunday night 'Dateline NBC' devoted an entire hour to the issue. I believe '60 minutes' covered it also.

I think a lot of people (including me) are frightened by the fact that a silly throw-away line by an aging DJ offended a few people so his livelihood was taken away from him.

Scary stuff.

[lleeder]

Sorry, but that is the case. I was hoping when they found out who was really the father of Anna Nicole's baby, it would all go away, but not even that was enough to get Imus out of the headlines.

Well unfortunatly we have a new tragedy in the news. These recent shootings will make Imus a distant memory.

[sailor]

I think america was great at some point. When nathan hale said, "I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country," it was really a testament to what people were willing to do to live in a great and free country. But now what do we have? A country of complacency and hypocrisy. Nobody is willing to stand up for what is right....unless they are somehow to gain from it. It's fucking sickening.

Don't get me wrong, I still think america is the best thing going, but we should be so much better, and it's aggravating to watch us flush freedom down the tube every chance we get. This imus thing, was just the last straw for me.

nathan hale was great in the producers.

[patsopinion]

Yeah, I have been waiting for Dec. 22 2012 ever since I learned about that. Talk about a sigh of relief if we make it to that date.

yea i liked that theory
the main problem with that being the end of the world



the world did not start at the begging of that calander-
their year one wasnt the first day of their civilization/world

[GregoryJoseph]

Perhaps we're simply too big for our own good.

Can a country of such size and diversity ever truly be "united?"

[Bob'sBitchTits]

Perhaps we're simply too big for our own good.

Can a country of such size and diversity ever truly be "united?"

Is "unity" really the ultimate goal?

Do we all have do be the same in order to co-exist?

I don't think that the big rift in the two parties is as prevalent in daily life as it is on the TV.
That is, I think a republican would save a democrat from drowning without first asking the poor swimmer's political affiliation.

I also don't give a shit if this whole thing collapses. I can live on grubs and berries.

[keithy_19]

Is "unity" really the ultimate goal?

Do we all have do be the same in order to co-exist?

I don't think that the big rift in the two parties is as prevalent in daily life as it is on the TV.
That is, I think a republican would save a democrat from drowning without first asking the poor swimmer's political affiliation.
I also don't give a shit if this whole thing collapses. I can live on grubs and berries.

That's why Ted Kennedy let that girl drown...

[A.J.]

Perhaps we're simply too big for our own good.

Can a country of such size and diversity ever truly be "united?"

If this board can't, how the hell can the country do it?