We're number 37, YAAAAAY!

[high fly]

http://http://mwhodges.home.att.net/healthcare.htm (http://mwhodges.home.att.net/healthcare.htm)


But at least we are ahead of Slovenia!

[Fat_Sunny]

Yeah, The US Sucks.

Happy?

[yomudder21]

That is better then our Olympic basketball team

[Fat_Sunny]

Well, And There Are So Many Factors If You Look Beneath The Obvious.

Starting With The Fact That About Half The Countries Above The US Are "Toy" Countries Like Andorra And San Marino And Iceland, Or Have Poplulations Less Than New York City, Or Have Homogeneous Non-Immigrant Populations. A Fairer Comparison For These Would Be Wisconsin Or Minnesota.

Compare Apples To Apples, Fine. But To Rank The US Vs Monaco..Come On, That Is Just Silly.

[sailor]

Well, And There Are So Many Factors If You Look Beneath The Obvious.

Starting With The Fact That About Half The Countries Above The US Are "Toy" Countries Like Andorra And San Marino And Iceland, Or Have Poplulations Less Than New York City, Or Have Homogeneous Non-Immigrant Populations. A Fairer Comparison For These Would Be Wisconsin Or Minnesota.

Compare Apples To Apples, Fine. But To Rank The US Vs Monaco..Come On, That Is Just Silly.

some charts/graphs that put things in a bit of perspective:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Life_expectancy_world_map.PNG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Life_expectancy_1950-2005.png/800px-Life_expectancy_1950-2005.png

other than australia, the countries in dark green are blips and we are in the same grouping as the majority of europe. looking at the expectancy by continent, north america is the leader, for what that's worth.

[Fat_Sunny]

some charts/graphs that put things in a bit of perspective:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Life_expectancy_world_map.PNG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Life_expectancy_1950-2005.png/800px-Life_expectancy_1950-2005.png

other than australia, the countries in dark green are blips and we are in the same grouping as the majority of europe. looking at the expectancy by continent, north america is the leader, for what that's worth.

Even Australia Can Be Considered A "Blip", As Its Population Of 20,000,000 Is ONE-FIFTEENTH Of The US, And It Is Much More Homogeneous. Comparing Life Expectancy In Australia To New England Would Be Much More Valid.

[high fly]

other than australia, the countries in dark green are blips and we are in the same grouping as the majority of europe. looking at the expectancy by continent, north america is the leader, for what that's worth.

Same grouping, eh?

Despite past life-expectancy growth within the U.S. as shown in the first chart, the left chart shows life-expectancy in the USA is less than most other advanced nations. Data source: 2006 statistical abstract, table # 1318
A 2006 study: "The U.S. health-care system is doing poorly by virtually every measure. The U.S. ranks at the bottom among industrialized countries for life expectancy both at birth and at age 60. It is also last on infant mortality."Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20060921/bs_bw/tc20060921053503


A September 2006 study: "The U.S. health-care system is doing poorly by virtually every measure. The study gave the U.S. system low grades on outcomes, quality of care, access to care, and efficiency, compared to other industrialized nations or generally accepted standards of care. The U.S. ranks at the bottom among industrialized countries for life expectancy both at birth and at age 60. Yet the U.S. ranks 15th out of 19 countries in terms of the number of deaths that could have been prevented. It is also last on infant mortality. Only 17% of U.S. doctors use electronic medical records, compared with 80% in the top three countries. The poor grade is particularly discomfiting, the researchers note, because the U.S. spends more on medicine, by far, than any other country. Approximately 16% of the nation's gross domestic product is devoted to health care, compared with 10% or less in other industrialized nations. The authors concluded that, if the U.S. improved and standardized health-care performance and access, approximately 100,000 to 150,000 lives could be saved annually, along with $50 billion to $100 billion a year." (Source: the report, commissioned by the non-profit and non-partisan Commonwealth Fund - http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20060921/bs_bw/tc20060921053503)

[Heather 8]

http://movies.infinitecoolness.com/19/clerks05.jpg
37?!!

[Fat_Sunny]

In Your Graph, Look At The Downturn In Life Expectancy For Sub-Saharan Africa. That Is AIDS. Sad.

[Fallon]

In a row?

http://members.aye.net/~gharris/Grafix/randal1.gif

[Tenbatsuzen]

http://www.zeenz.nl/images/uploads/clerks_xl_01.jpg

Try not to suck any dick on your way to the parking lot!

[Bulldogcakes]

Well, And There Are So Many Factors If You Look Beneath The Obvious.

Starting With The Fact That About Half The Countries Above The US Are "Toy" Countries Like Andorra And San Marino And Iceland, Or Have Poplulations Less Than New York City, Or Have Homogeneous Non-Immigrant Populations. A Fairer Comparison For These Would Be Wisconsin Or Minnesota.

Compare Apples To Apples, Fine. But To Rank The US Vs Monaco..Come On, That Is Just Silly.

Well yes, but look at all the high tech medical equipment and new drugs that have come out of Andorra!

High Fly, try quoting a source that doesn't look like my 6 year old nephew created it with Windows 95.

[Tenbatsuzen]

[SIZE="3"]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Life_expectancy_1950-2005.png/800px-Life_expectancy_1950-2005.png



http://movies.infinitecoolness.com/19/clerks11.jpg

[Fat_Sunny]

http://movies.infinitecoolness.com/19/clerks11.jpg


Can you PLEASE try adding more to the conversation than a picture that holds no water...?

:D

[high fly]

Well yes, but look at all the high tech medical equipment and new drugs that have come out of Andorra!

High Fly, try quoting a source that doesn't look like my 6 year old nephew created it with Windows 95.

Ahhhhh, the old style over substance approach!



















Bra-vo.

[cupcakelove]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Life_expectancy_1950-2005.png/800px-Life_expectancy_1950-2005.png



The graph is a little misleading, the way its grouped together seems to give the US the top life expectancy, when in actually, its currently 29th ranked country for average life expectancy.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Can you PLEASE try adding more to the conversation than a picture that holds no water...?

:D

Wasn't a cat. Was funny.

[Devo37]

I'm envious of our health care rating of 37. 37.
I'm envious of our health care rating of 37. 37.
Our lack of health care drives me crazy. 37. 37.
But that's what we get for being so lazy. 37. 37.

/obscure, i know.

[Bulldogcakes]

Ahhhhh, the old style over substance approach!

Bra-vo.


Asking you to quote reputable sources is style over substance?

[Fat_Sunny]

Wasn't a cat. Was funny.


It Was A Joke Dummy...F_S Took Your Own Words From The Thread On The XM/PAC Article!!

[HBox]

Here's a link to a more reputable source. (http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/05/health_numbers.html)

Yes, it's a liberal organization, but everything is linked to a source.

[JPMNICK]

better than Cuba....

Take that Michael Moore

[Tenbatsuzen]

It Was A Joke Dummy...F_S Took Your Own Words From The Thread On The XM/PAC Article!!

I know, character. I just wanted you to feel like a dolt.

[sailor]

The graph is a little misleading, the way its grouped together seems to give the US the top life expectancy, when in actually, its currently 29th ranked country for average life expectancy.

actually, it's quite clear that it's by continent. i can't imagine how it's misleading.

In Your Graph, Look At The Downturn In Life Expectancy For Sub-Saharan Africa. That Is AIDS. Sad.

yeah, i was looking at some stats and life expectancy in some of those countries is like 32 years. psychotic. meanwhile we're quibbling over 78 years vs. 79 years and 4 months.

[scottinnj]

Why do we care about this? Some countries have populations who eat right and exercise. Some have fat slobs who eat McDonalds and pizza everyday.

We are in the middle. We're average. Not a bunch of fitness freaks but not a bunch of cheese eating surrender monkeys either.

[sailor]

Why do we care about this? Some countries have populations who eat right and exercise. Some have fat slobs who eat McDonalds and pizza everyday.

We are in the middle. We're average. Not a bunch of fitness freaks but not a bunch of cheese eating surrender monkeys either.

good point. i blame the blacks. and mcdonald's and ihop.

[Fallon]

Gvac would like to request we be number 9.

Thank you.

[sailor]

Gvac would like to request we be number 9.

Thank you.

baboof!

[high fly]

Asking you to quote reputable sources is style over substance?

No.
saying this:
High Fly, try quoting a source that doesn't look like my 6 year old nephew created it with Windows 95.
which compares the appearance of the site rather than the facts therein constitutes placing style over substance.

It is a well-known dodge, a tactic which allows the person to avoid directly addressing the facts set before you.

It is a form of "shoot the messenger."

Seems to me sources like Nobel Prize winner Milton Friedman qualify as "reputable."

[scottinnj]

No.
saying this:

which compares the appearance of the site rather than the facts therein constitutes placing style over substance.

It is a well-known dodge, a tactic which allows the person to avoid directly addressing the facts set before you.

It is a form of "shoot the messenger."

Seems to me sources like Nobel Prize winner Milton Friedman qualify as "reputable."



Nah, Uncle Milty always wore dresses for a laugh...kinda creeped me out when I was a kid.

[high fly]

For Bulldog & co. when they get around to actually addressing the points being made, I have conveniently numbered them, below for easy reference:

1) the U.S. ranks only 37th in the world in quality health care -
yet nationally America spends 82% more per person on health care than others -
while U.S. federal and state governments spend more on health care than other governments.

2) A 2006 study: "The U.S. health-care system is doing poorly by virtually every measure. The U.S. ranks at the bottom among industrialized countries for life expectancy both at birth and at age 60. It is also last on infant mortality.

3) The study gave the U.S. system low grades on outcomes, quality of care, access to care, and efficiency, compared to other industrialized nations or generally accepted standards of care. The U.S. ranks at the bottom among industrialized countries for life expectancy both at birth and at age 60.

4) the U.S. ranks 15th out of 19 countries in terms of the number of deaths that could have been prevented.

5) Only 17% of U.S. doctors use electronic medical records, compared with 80% in the top three countries.

6) the U.S. spends more on medicine, by far, than any other country. Approximately 16% of the nation's gross domestic product is devoted to health care, compared with 10% or less in other industrialized nations.

7) if the U.S. improved and standardized health-care performance and access, approximately 100,000 to 150,000 lives could be saved annually, along with $50 billion to $100 billion a year.


THE ABOVE IS JUST FOR STARTERS...

[scottinnj]

We spend all this money on healthcare because too many people are getting ulcers worrying over factoids like that.

We pay a shitload of money for housing as well. And our cars and food and everything else. And it's because we have the most money, so these companies feed off of our disposable income while taking a hit elsewhere.

[high fly]

actually, it's quite clear that it's by continent. i can't imagine how it's misleading.



....meanwhile we're quibbling over 78 years vs. 79 years and 4 months.


ACTUALLY, by going by continent and not by individual nation, Canada's greater life expectancy makes us appear in better shape than we are.

Statistically, the difference between 78 and 79 and four months is significant, and not quibbling; especially when you look at how much more we spend (and many people about to die would glady quibble if it meant 16 more months of life).
The chart on the site from the Census Bureau shows our life expectancy under 78 with Australia, Japan and Hong Kong over 80, and us lagging behind France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland England, Holland and Greece.
If we are really number 1 like Limpbaugh and Manatee say, we should be kicking their asses.

Making it worse is we spend far more and get far less return for our dollar.


Other industrialized nations

* Cover every citizen,

* Do so for less,

* Get better quality care just about every way you measure it






.

[SatCam]

Being 100% honest for a moment, I've been keeping myself from posting a thread entitled "Has HEALTHCARE Lost Its Way?" for a while now.

I figured it would be seen as either a joke or a chance for the DOCTORS and NURSES to jump all over my ass for "stirring shit up" and not taken seriously.

I'm glad it was brought up on the BOARD today.

This HEALTHCARE is definitely not run the way it used to be, and the interaction with the CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA isn't the same either.

[sailor]

ACTUALLY, by going by continent and not by individual nation, Canada's greater life expectancy makes us appear in better shape than we are.

and canadians don't come here when they need something done in a hurry? heck, there are companies (http://www.vipdocs.com/) set up just to cater to the canadians willing to come over the border and pay for our inferior treatment.

with national health plans costs are artificially kept low, because the government arbitrarily sets prices (and they're the ones paying!). also, the climate of frivolous lawsuits (and not so frivolous ones) cause prices to rise, due to sky-rocketing malpractice insurance. a major set-back for virtually any national plan (in case there's some exception i don't know of) is waiting months for either urgent or minor treatment.

seriously, like scott said, look at the obesity we have going here. you don't think that affects the life expectancy here? my point was we're way into the good section of these charts/graphs. if we ate fish 3 meals a day like the japanese (instead of big macs) we'd live a little longer as well.

[Bulldogcakes]

For Bulldog & co. when they get around to actually addressing the points being made, I have conveniently numbered them, below for easy reference:

1) the U.S. ranks only 37th in the world in quality health care -
yet nationally America spends 82% more per person on health care than others -
while U.S. federal and state governments spend more on health care than other governments.

2) A 2006 study: "The U.S. health-care system is doing poorly by virtually every measure. The U.S. ranks at the bottom among industrialized countries for life expectancy both at birth and at age 60. It is also last on infant mortality.

3) The study gave the U.S. system low grades on outcomes, quality of care, access to care, and efficiency, compared to other industrialized nations or generally accepted standards of care. The U.S. ranks at the bottom among industrialized countries for life expectancy both at birth and at age 60.

4) the U.S. ranks 15th out of 19 countries in terms of the number of deaths that could have been prevented.

5) Only 17% of U.S. doctors use electronic medical records, compared with 80% in the top three countries.

6) the U.S. spends more on medicine, by far, than any other country. Approximately 16% of the nation's gross domestic product is devoted to health care, compared with 10% or less in other industrialized nations.

7) if the U.S. improved and standardized health-care performance and access, approximately 100,000 to 150,000 lives could be saved annually, along with $50 billion to $100 billion a year.


THE ABOVE IS JUST FOR STARTERS...

Here's my response. None of that is linked, therefore its not worth discussing. I dont believe a word of it and have no reason to.

At least H-Box linked to an advocacy group which cites government data. Any advocacy group will of course only cite the facts which support their preconceived notions, but at least there's something to debate. You referenced this website

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/healthcare.htm

and yes, for those playing along at home, that is Michael Hodges home page. Who is Michael Hodges? Some shmuck with a blog, possibly a British born screenwriter.

You attack me for style over substance, and you're the one linking to some bozos blog who as far as we know has no medical degree, no journalism degree, no expertise on the subject whatsoever. To be honest with you, I dont know why I even bothered to respond to your thread.

[Yerdaddy]

I wonder how we'd rank in quality of arguments?

A few corrections to falacies in this thread so far:

1. The source of the #37 ranking was the World Health Organization and not the random Joe who made that website, (which is actually quite impressive design-wise considering it was obviously done on an Etch-A-Sketch by Bulldogcake's 6 year-old nephew).

2. The 37 dicks were NOT in a row! (Or were you referencing a movie with that one?)

3. The report is clearly not a comparison between "blip" countries and the U.S. It compares the whole world. We're #37 - below blips like Luxembourg and Dan Marino, but also: France, Italy, Spain, Oman(*), Austria, Japan, Norway, Portugal(*), Greece, Netherlands, England, Ireland, Switzerland, Belgium, Columbia(*), Sweden, Germany, Saudi Arabia(*), United Arab Emirates(*), Israel, Morocco(*), Canada, Finland, Australia, Chile(*) and Denmark.

(*) = countries we should be especially shocked and horrified that we're worse than. MOROCCO!!??

4. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/Moorehead_as_Endora.jpg "What need do I have for medical equipment and new drugs, Billbobcrackers?! I'm a witch!"

5. The #37 ranking is not based on life expentancy alone but a set of indicators meant to indicate "quality of healthcare".

6. Uncle Milty didn't always wear dresses for a laugh.

7. We don't pay more for things than other countries, and most of the counties that are more expensive beat us in the health care quality rankings. (http://money.cnn.com/2007/06/15/pf/most_expensive_cities/)

World's most expensive cities 2007

1. Moscow
2. London
3. Seoul
4. Tokyo
5. Hong Kong
6. Copenhagen
7. Geneva
8. Osaka
9. Zurich
10. Oslo
11. Milan
12. St. Petersburg (Russia)
13. Paris
14. Singapore
15. New York City
16. Dublin
17. Tel Aviv
18. Rome
19. Vienna
20. Beijing

8. Medical-related travel is a global phenomenon and isn't a good indicator of overall healthcare quality of a country. India is a common place to travel to for cheap and decent operations but the market for medical tourists has actually driven the level of care for its own citizens who can't pay the high costs that foreigners can. Canadians come to the U.S. for timely care and we go there for cheaper medicines. Americans also go to Mexico, Costa Rica, Venzuela, Hungary and Bangkok for dentistry because 45% of Americans don't have dental insurance. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/17/AR2007061701297.html) (They also go to at least one of those places to have the dental assistant inject the novacaine by shooting a dart out of her pussy.)

[Freakshow]

I blame people that have quit smoking.


Doesn't the majority of taxes on cigarettes go to heath care subsidies? Less people buying means less taxes. Don't they smoke like chimneys in most of these countries higher than us on the list? France, Greece, etc.. Doesn't seem to be hurting their life expectantcy.

Start smoking people, we're #37, damn it.

[A.J.]

I blame people that have quit smoking.


Doesn't the majority of taxes on cigarettes go to heath care subsidies? Less people buying means less taxes. Don't they smoke like chimneys in most of these countries higher than us on the list? France, Greece, etc.. Doesn't seem to be hurting their life expectantcy.

Start smoking people, we're #37, damn it.

Smokers are heroes. We pay more in taxes, die earlier, and cause less of a strain on the medical system unlike your incontinent, diaper-wearing, senile coots.

[Bulldogcakes]

I wonder how we'd rank in quality of arguments?

A few corrections to falacies in this thread so far:

1. The source of the #37 ranking was the World Health Organization and not the random Joe who made that website, (which is actually quite impressive design-wise considering it was obviously done on an Etch-A-Sketch by Bulldogcake's 6 year-old nephew).

Fine, then lets add another "fallacy" to the list. The claim just made by Yerdaddy that the #37 ranking came from the WHO and was linked by Joe Shmoe. If you actually click the link where he makes the claim, you get the WHO front page. No #37 report. You search "health rankings" and you get articles like this (http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-life.html) which have us ranked #24.

If he was going to give us the wrong link, he should have done something like this (http://www.demolicious.org/system/files?file=images/horny.jpg). So we could at least get a chuckle out of it.

[scottinnj]

All we are saying................is give cheese a chance!

[high fly]

Government-run Medicare's costs rose less than private medical care

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/22/2/230

"Comparing Medicare And Private Insurers: Growth Rates In Spending Over Three Decades
Cristina Boccuti and Marilyn Moon
Abstract

Over the past three decades both Medicare and private insurers have initiated cost containment mechanisms to control the growth of spending on personal health care. To compare spending growth between these two payers, we present four measurement principles that should be implemented when drawing such comparisons, and we apply them to the National Health Accounts data files. We attribute Medicare’s ability to equal—and using our measures, actually exceed—the private sector in controlling the rate of health spending growth to Medicare’s ability to price aggressively for the services it covers."

[high fly]

Fine, then lets add another "fallacy" to the list. The claim just made by Yerdaddy that the #37 ranking came from the WHO and was linked by Joe Shmoe. If you actually click the link where he makes the claim, you get the WHO front page. No #37 report. You search "health rankings" and you get articles like this (http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-life.html) which have us ranked #24.

If he was going to give us the wrong link, he should have done something like this (http://www.demolicious.org/system/files?file=images/horny.jpg). So we could at least get a chuckle out of it.

And you got nuthin else, eh?
You concede all those other points, huh?
They were linked in the original posts, you just ignored them.

And how about being like honest folk and acknowledging the fact that indeed, you tried to make a style over substance argument.