I just saw SiCKO.

[empulse]

wow. f*cking awesome. hopefully people will watch this film this weekend. actually i hope everyone on this board goes and sees it. Its so good i am going to the mall tomorrow, and i am going to buy peoples tickets to see it.

I won't describe / ruin it for anyone just go see it.

[Mafialife Chris]

I am a Bush Fan, will i still enjoy it?

[legroommusic]

I don't like hillary, will I like it?

[Don Stugots]

i thought this thread was going to be about stalking Mark with a c

[HBox]

I don't like hillary, will I like it?

Probably. I heard he takes some shots at her.

[Mafialife Chris]

Probably. I heard he takes some shots at her.

Back shots?

[HBox]

Back shots?

Right up the poop chute.

[scottinnj]

Is it in theaters?

Last I heard it was on YouTube or Fark.com or some other site. It had been bootlegged right?

[HBox]

It comes out next week, you know, if you want to see it LEGALLY, you immoral hippies.

[scottinnj]

Right up the poop chute.

:clap:

[empulse]

Hillary's people asked Moore to pull the Hillary part of the movie. She will have to write a check for about $389K to clear herself. Even then shes still fuct. But not as fuct as the rest of us here in these Great (?) United States.

PM me if you want to see it.

[scottinnj]

It comes out next week, you know, if you want to see it LEGALLY, you immoral hippies.

I probably won't see it until it hits DVD....Transformers and John McClane are coming to theaters and they have more priority.

Someone on the board go see it, and give us the Cliff Notes please.

[empulse]

I am going to try an watch Transformers tonight.. DvDs for SiCKO, Transformers, and this weekend should see DieHard on DVD as well..

The internets are great.

[FezPaul]

Someone on the board go see it, and give us the Cliff Notes please.


America sucks.

Cuba is great.

Michael Moore is fat.

[Don Stugots]

I am going to try an watch Transformers tonight.. DvDs for SiCKO, Transformers, and this weekend should see DieHard on DVD as well..

The internets are great.

and you cant hook up someone that might want to see the transfomers in the comfort of his own home?

[suggums]

sounds like someone just discovered the magic of torrents

[Snacks]

I am a Bush Fan, will i still enjoy it?

please tell me your being funny or your talking about female "bush"?

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

Its so good i am going to the mall tomorrow, and i am going to buy

people much-needed prescriptions?

[PapaBear]

Michael Moore is fat.
Sunny?

[tele7]

I am a Bush Fan, will i still enjoy it?

I give it 3 onion rings.

[moochcassidy]

on an unrelated matter, this is a site i heard about, i have never used it and dont endorse its use.

www.meyepop.com

[klaus_kinski_Jr]

Heres the movie in a nutshell

Canada, France, England and Cuba all have better health care for their citizens then the US.

Hope I did not spoil it for everyone.

[moochcassidy]

Heres the movie in a nutshell

Canada, France, England and Cuba all have better health care for their citizens then the US.

Hope I did not spoil it for everyone.

shhhh dont ruuune it.

anyone remember tv nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Nation)? it was a joined british/US tv deal and was probably one of the better
shows of my lifetime. i think it was after 'roger and me' before 'the Big One' (i think)

it could be one of those rose-tinted deals but i really remember being blown away by the unique structure and editing style, and Moore was more funny and belligerent than preachy.

wooooooooo. some on youtube (http://youtube.com/results?search_query=tv+nation&search=)

anyone with torrents or streaming links please PM me, im on a mission now. i need to check if this show was as good as i remember

[WRESTLINGFAN]

After a long week at the office and being surrounded by 24 hr cable news, like I really want to take a woman on a date to see a documentary on health care. Gonna wait for the DVD to come out

[empulse]

This movie isn't about "America sucks, everyone else is better" like some of the less informed corporate apologists here think. It is asking us why we don't give a fuck. Why do so many tow the corporate line of saying "privatization is whats best, the corporations will take care of us...they know whats good for us." I actually think that people who will bash this film hate our democracy and don't understand the principles of democracy. It isn't me me me me.

I guess you could just bash Moore, and keep the status quo going, bitch about how taxes aren't fair, how liberals hate Uhmerica, and dream of a day when you and Hannity get to share that special moment together, where you spend hours buttfucking after dragging a fag behind your pickup down an old country road, down to ol' make out point.

Or you could say "hey .. this isn't right." And maybe try to do something about it.

[Mafialife Chris]

This movie isn't about "America sucks, everyone else is better" like some of the less informed corporate apologists here think. It is asking us why we don't give a fuck. Why do so many tow the corporate line of saying "privatization is whats best, the corporations will take care of us...they know whats good for us." I actually think that people who will bash this film hate our democracy and don't understand the principles of democracy. It isn't me me me me.

I guess you could just bash Moore, and keep the status quo going, bitch about how taxes aren't fair, how liberals hate Uhmerica, and dream of a day when you and Hannity get to share that special moment together, where you spend hours buttfucking after dragging a fag behind your pickup down an old country road, down to ol' make out point.

Or you could say "hey .. this isn't right." And maybe try to do something about it.


Like making a few hate movies?
lol
If i may quote my old italian granny:
" theres people starving, use the money to feed them"

[moochcassidy]

im a massive supporter of the British Welfare State, (which is currently being dismantled in favour of 'Public Private Partnerships'- essentially privatisation of the National Health System.)

But it does come at a cost. since '48 a vast proportion of our GNP has gone into an amazingly inefficient and wasteful web of competing institutions subject to political interference.

As the US rode the post war boom, Britain was struggling to control this concept of 'free' health care... because hospitals and doctors aren't free.

i suppose current consensus among the political class here is that it was a worthy ideal but a system reliant on tax revenue alone to sustain itself is unrealistic...(if your priority is to avoid income tax hikes)

but ask the man in the street, and i dont think you'll find him opposed to the ideal of the Welfare State, but he will be very critical of how the experiment was handled...EDIT- especially since that aule cuntface Maggie

edit2- there are a number of countries, especially in Scandinavia, where the Nat. Health system continues to be very well maintained and co-ordinated

[moochcassidy]

TV Nation - National Healthcare Olympics

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/y755IP5R8Hg"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/y755IP5R8Hg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

its just occured to me that my family has probably received several hundred thousand pounds worth of heath care over the last five years. the only thing we pay for upfront is $12 per prescription.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Alot of us can agree that the healthcare system needs fixing, but do we really need another FEMA type government bureocracy to run healthcare? We all know how they fumbled on Katrina, Another bureocracy wont improve anything

[TheMojoPin]

Alot of us can agree that the healthcare system needs fixing, but do we really need another FEMA type government bureocracy to run healthcare? We all know how they fumbled on Katrina, Another bureocracy wont improve anything

Why would it be structured like FEMA?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Why would it be structured like FEMA?



I meant that FEMA and other bureocracies do more harm than help in my opinion. I think if we do have a national health care system it will be run by a bunch of political appointees, not people in the medical profession. What did ole Brownie know about disaster relief?

[TheMojoPin]

It's not like there was a "diaster relief field" to pool from. I'm not making excuses, but it would be much easier to staff such an organization with actual medical professionals.

[sailor]

edit2- there are a number of countries, especially in Scandinavia, where the Nat. Health system continues to be very well maintained and co-ordinated

some comedic type (pj o'rourke-ish) wrote a book comparing the us healthcare system to a scandinavian country and 2 others (canada or britain and perhaps an african nation? totally grasping at straws here.) i read it at least 15 years ago, does anyone have a clue what the book might be? i've been trying to think of it for days now.

[epo]

I meant that FEMA and other bureocracies do more harm than help in my opinion. I think if we do have a national health care system it will be run by a bunch of political appointees, not people in the medical profession. What did ole Brownie know about disaster relief?

Actually Bush dismantled FEMA and restructured it completely before Katrina in the name of "less government". He lowered them from a Cabinet-level body to an underling of the Department of Homeland Security. That sure worked out well.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

It's not like there was a "diaster relief field" to pool from. I'm not making excuses, but it would be much easier to staff such an organization with actual medical professionals.

Ideally that would be the best situation, call me a pessimist but I honestly think that it would be staffed mostly by pundits who donated the most cash towards a persons campaign. in other words business as usual in DC

[Gvac]

Propaganda movies are always good for a laugh.

As long as the audience realizes it's propaganda.

When they don't it's terrifying.

[TheMojoPin]

Propaganda movies are always good for a laugh.

As long as the audience realizes it's propaganda.

When they don't it's terrifying.

Everyone understands that every documentary is made with a personal agenda, right? There's no such thing as an "unbiased" documentary. To dismiss Moore's work as "propoganda" clearly serves to only make it sound more sinister and to somehow seperate it from other documentaries.

[Gvac]

I'm sorry, but when I watched his "Farenheit 9/11" laugher and he showed Iraq as this idyllic wonderland where children played in the park and everyone walked around happy as a clam until the ugly Americans showed up, I knew it was a propaganda film.

After the evil empire got there, children lay dead in the streets and women wept while their men were being slaughtered or disfigured.

[moochcassidy]

im on the fence.

i cant say im a fan of Moore's style since he got so overtly political and one-sided (since 'columbine' i suppose) id go as far as to say i question his journalistic integrity on alot of occasions.

saying that, im a 1/3 through Sicko and its a testimony based gimmick so its pretty compelling. (AND some nice reportage film work for the geeks)

i dont like the word propaganda, its filled with some implications i dont see in his work, but i think people know not to expect quality journalism off him at this point.

[TheMojoPin]

I'm sorry, but when I watched his "Farenheit 9/11" laugher and he showed Iraq as this idyllic wonderland where children played in the park and everyone walked around happy as a clam until the ugly Americans showed up, I knew it was a propaganda film.

After the evil empire got there, children lay dead in the streets and women wept while their men were being slaughtered or disfigured.

I'm not trying to excuse or explain away Moore's biases...but I'm not admitting that his films are some kind of exception in the field of documentary filmmaking. He is more sensational than most, but if you get down to the nitty gritty, all documentaries are technically "propoganda":

Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation: "prä-p&-'gan-d&, "prO-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect

[moochcassidy]

my understanding of propaganda is 'telling people what to think when you know its not true'

i think he attempts to get to 'the truth', but doesnt appreciate the importance of counterbalance in journalism...i suppose its a recent trend in documentary making, theres an argument for that.

[Snacks]

I'm sorry, but when I watched his "Farenheit 9/11" laugher and he showed Iraq as this idyllic wonderland where children played in the park and everyone walked around happy as a clam until the ugly Americans showed up, I knew it was a propaganda film.

After the evil empire got there, children lay dead in the streets and women wept while their men were being slaughtered or disfigured.

I dont think he was trying to show that Iraq was a happy wonderland. But that it was not like we have been told for years. Do you really think that what we were told is true? That everywhere in the country Sadam and his sons would just walk around and for no reason do shit? Come on even if it was true that doesnt mean there wasnt normacy the majority of the time, kids did play and people did have jobs.

You do know the govt and special interests groups make things sound alot worse then they are just to fear us into going along with whatever they do. To make us feel like we are always doing the right thing.

No one has ever said that Sadam was a great man, but he might have done what had to be done over there to keep it the way it was. Without it that way maybe it would be like it is right now, with 3 diffrent secs of a religion fighting over nothing without someone running the country.

IMO religion is out of control in the middle east. The main characters over there will not live amongst eachother and their religions. Unless the country because a 1 religion state then this will go on forever just like it has all over the middle east. We need to get out of the middle east, let them all control and do whatever they want to themselves, get off foreign oil and never deal with anything that has nothing to do with us or the middle east.

[scottinnj]

I guess you could just bash Moore, and keep the status quo going, bitch about how taxes aren't fair, how liberals hate Uhmerica, and dream of a day when you and Hannity get to share that special moment together, where you spend hours buttfucking after dragging a fag behind your pickup down an old country road, down to ol' make out point.

Or you could say "hey .. this isn't right." And maybe try to do something about it.

Well, lookie here, an intolerant "progressive" who wants us to "do something" about his cause but shits all over us with the Randy Rhodes insults. Who saw him coming?
I'm siccing Ann Coulter on your ass.


As for the movie, Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286518,00.html) has a story on the weekend results of Moore's movie that is interesting. If these early results continue, the movie should do well. I'll wait for the PBS edit though.

[HBox]

I saw this tonight. One of the most depressing things I've ever seen. And I'm someone who has had health problems, had some troubles in the past similar to some of situations in the film (but luckily enough to this point I've never had a treatment or procedure flat out denied, ::knock on wood:: ), I've heard stories at my doctor's office of similar things, talked to people who have had similar things happen and still some of the shit in this movie hit me hard. I went in knowing what to expect and I'm still shaken.

And I don't think these will be much there for people to pick apart. It's all mostly just personal stories. Obviously he's contrasting American horror stories against these socialized systems working exactly as its supposed to be. Of course these socialized system have horror stories too. That's not the point. And further, after all the bullshit posturing outright fake horror stories we've been hearing for years about socialized systems I think this is a small counterpoint. That's why I have no time for "Why didn't he show the bad side of these systems?" argument. That's all we've fucking heard for so long.

But even saying that, the France portion was too far. It went from presenting France's health system (best in the world and NOT completely socialized either) to an outright ad for France's whole social welfare system. Vacation days in France and free higher education had no place in this film.

And the Cuba part, the part I thought would be most over the top, wasn't at all. They walk down the streets and it looks like a third world country. The people are treated in a Cuban hospital and it looks like a hospital in a third world country. The only positive thing was that they finally got treated. It didn't look like a place you'd want to be treated at unless you had no other option, which they didn't and was the whole point of it all.

And it was just embarrassing. No matter what you think the answer is the way this country treated people in this film was disgusting. Hospitals dumping injured people on the streets, cancer patients left to die, a baby left to die by an HMO, people losing everything they worked their whole life for for the single sin of getting sick when they got old and a country who forces its sick heroes to Cuba to get medical treatment.

Don't go see this movie if you want to enjoy yourself is all I'm saying.

[scottinnj]

Alot of us can agree that the healthcare system needs fixing, but do we really need another FEMA type government bureocracy to run healthcare? We all know how they fumbled on Katrina, Another bureocracy wont improve anything

That's where I am too. I'm not thrilled with the idea of the government making the healthcare decisions, but I do agree that it should do a better job in oversight of the private companies.
And it's too expensive for the government to pay for it. The Medicare Prescription Drug Coverage Plan is supposed to cost almost a trillion dollars over the next 10 years, and that's just the pills!

[HBox]

That's where I am too. I'm not thrilled with the idea of the government making the healthcare decisions, but I do agree that it should do a better job in oversight of the private companies.
And it's too expensive for the government to pay for it. The Medicare Prescription Drug Coverage Plan is supposed to cost almost a trillion dollars over the next 10 years, and that's just the pills!

Don't start with that travesty of a drug bill. SiCKO covered that brilliantly. It was just a giveaway to drug companies. Anyone who was actually serious about fixing health care in this country could come up with a cheaper, more effective solution. Please don't use that as an example of how any universal health care plan would be. It was the result of political pandering at a very corrupt point in the history of Congress.

In fact I wish the Democratic Congress would revisit the thing but they seem to busy failing to do other things.

[Dan 'Hampton]

ALL politicians are in the pockets of the healthcare industry. Don't forget that. Keep beating your head against the "mean Republican" brick wall while all the others are in that same line getting handouts from pill companies. I agree that socialized healthcare can work in some countries, but look what happens to every other government handout program in this country. You think it wouldn't happen to healthcare. We need ( I hate to say this ) more government oversight in the healthcare industry but I realize that that probably wont work either.

[Mafialife Chris]

please tell me your being funny or your talking about female "bush"?

No. I am talking about George Bush, Our President!
Clear enough for ya?
:)

[MikeB]

I am a Bush Fan

of course...

[HBox]

ALL politicians are in the pockets of the healthcare industry. Don't forget that. Keep beating your head against the "mean Republican" brick wall while all the others are in that same line getting handouts from pill companies. I agree that socialized healthcare can work in some countries, but look what happens to every other government handout program in this country. You think it wouldn't happen to healthcare. We need ( I hate to say this ) more government oversight in the healthcare industry but I realize that that probably wont work either.

Republicans were responsible for that drug bill. They wrote it, and the people who did write it, including a sitting congressman, after passing the bill quit their jobs and went to work within the pharmaceutical industry. They didn't even try to hide the corruptness of the whole thing.

[Gvac]

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-Ae2qyP9OvM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-Ae2qyP9OvM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[TheMojoPin]

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-Ae2qyP9OvM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-Ae2qyP9OvM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

And the Cuba part, the part I thought would be most over the top, wasn't at all. They walk down the streets and it looks like a third world country. The people are treated in a Cuban hospital and it looks like a hospital in a third world country. The only positive thing was that they finally got treated. It didn't look like a place you'd want to be treated at unless you had no other option, which they didn't and was the whole point of it all.

Sometimes it's a little too obvious when people are jumping all over a film they haven't seen.

[empulse]

Thats cool Gvac. WTF does that have to do with Michael Moores movie? SiCKO is about the United States healthcare system.. Just in case you were wondering and haven't seen it. This person in the video is who? Paid by Who? endorsing what? So you are completely for the way the US healthcare system in this country works? I am confused.

Deny benefits to people who pay into the HMO system?

Rake in Billions of dollars quarterly because healthcare is for the privileged not for all?

The corporations will decide whats best for you and I? They will always make the right choice?

How much did our Cuban friends family pay for the healthcare he received? Was that wound in his belly related to the cancer? Was it one that had to be reopened on a continual basis for treatment?

No one glorified the healthcare in cuba. simply showed that when you walk up you get treated. As opposed to here where as a construction manager i would routinely take my guys to the hospital for injuries, and because they were workmens comp, and a pain in the ass for hospitals to deal with-- often times we wait up to 6 hrs for service, and even then it costs me so much fucking money that i almost go out of business.

Fucking corporate apologists amaze me. " I like how they treat me, they LET me have a job, and they LET me make 450x times less than the CEO of our company, I am so blessed."

[HBox]

Here's waht the Cuban hospital looked like. As soon as they walked in the lobby literally looked like Grand Central Station. Crowded as hell, didn't look at all like a hospital. Then they get into their rooms. The patients finally get into their room and in a room the size of a typical hospital room with two beds they stick four beds in the room. And there's no medical equipment in the room. Just four beds with a dresser next to each bed. And other than a CT scanner that stood out like a sore thumb the rest of the place looked like an old, dingy hospital.

The only reason it was appealing to the people Moore brought there was because the alternative was NOTHING. Which was the real point.

[xample]

Are we not allowed to excommunicate Mikey Moore from America yet?

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/v/W/michalmoore_jackass.jpg

[furie]

I meant that FEMA and other bureocracies do more harm than help in my opinion. I think if we do have a national health care system it will be run by a bunch of political appointees, not people in the medical profession. What did ole Brownie know about disaster relief?

FEMA works just fine. Look at it's entire history of helping people and saving lives. In just one disaster there was a problem, Katrina. And if you knew anything about the problem, you'd see that it was DHS, not FEMA that was the problem. Prior to being brought under the Dept. of Homeland Security FEMA was in independent agency answering to no other department. This allowed them to remain flexible and able to jump into a crisis with little to no notice. The buracracy comes from DHS. after 2002, FEMA was brought under the umbrella of DHS, and thus had to clear every little decision through several layers of decision makers.

as i've stated befoe on this board, a national heathcare system could be a blessing and a curse. it's not the cost, the US can afford it, they just don't want to. What concerns me is having my heath put into the hands of apathetic government workers. I fear that hospitals will become the DMV.

[J.Clints]

I am still waiting to see sicko but I doubt I will see it until I get it on Netflix.

[Gvac]

empulse wrote:

Thats cool Gvac. WTF does that have to do with Michael Moores movie? SiCKO is about the United States healthcare system.. Just in case you were wondering and haven't seen it. This person in the video is who?

No need to be combative, buddy. I'm merely illustrating that the very nature of propaganda films will guarantee that there will always be two very opposite sides.

The person in the video is Luis Moro, by the way. He's a Cuban filmmaker.

[TheMojoPin]

No need to be combative, buddy. I'm merely illustrating that the very nature of propaganda films will guarantee that there will always be two very opposite sides.

The person in the video is Luis Moro, by the way. He's a Cuban filmmaker.

But as several of us have pointed out, only a REALLY skewed perspective would see what Moore shows of Cuban hospitals and decide, "ah-HAH, that's clearly a good thing!" The whole "Michael Moore is saying the Cuban medical system is best" is a non-issue because he's not trying to present that. It's total spin made up in desperation to attack the movie in a really simple and sensational way without answering any of the actual points and questions it raises.

And I'm still curious as to how you see Moore's works as "propaganda" films. Like I've pointed out, if you go strictly by definitions, all documentaries are propaganda, but you're clearly equating it so something like, say, Triumph of the Will. I wonder if you'd be willing to at least break down why you seem to think Moore's films fall more to that side than other documentaries, and then maybe which documentaries you don't see as "propaganda."

[epo]

Are we not allowed to excommunicate Mikey Moore from America yet?

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/v/W/michalmoore_jackass.jpg

For what? Using his First Amendment rights?

Seriously, the part about free speech that many need to learn is that it doesn't always sound pretty or express your point of view.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

For what? Using his First Amendment rights?

Seriously, the part about free speech that many need to learn is that it doesn't always sound pretty or express your point of view.



Exactly!!! But people who disagree with Moore shouldn't be villified either

[epo]

Exactly!!! But people who disagree with Moore shouldn't be villified either

You are absolutely correct about that. The problem is when those people derail the conversation describing him as a "commie", "Pinko", etc.....It fails to lead to a logical discussion 100% of the time.

[scottinnj]

You are right Epo, too many of my guys call him names without arguing the topic. So when the movie hits DVD, I'll watch it and make up my own mind.

[xample]

I'm all about free speech. In fact I have watched some of Moore's work.

But there are people all day long who bash the president and others to the furthest extent. Moore seems to get a free pass and so many people are blinded by his inconsistencies that its ridiculous.

If he wants to keep making his political statements and movies that's great. I for one do not care for him, thus I have the fucking free speech right to call him a jackass and to have him kicked out. It won't happen, but that's my opinion.

[HBox]

Moore seems to get a free pass and so many people are blinded by his inconsistencies that its ridiculous.

What is this, opposite day?

[prothunderball]

I'm all about free speech. In fact I have watched some of Moore's work.

But there are people all day long who bash the president and others to the furthest extent. Moore seems to get a free pass and so many people are blinded by his inconsistencies that its ridiculous.

If he wants to keep making his political statements and movies that's great. I for one do not care for him, thus I have the fucking free speech right to call him a jackass and to have him kicked out. It won't happen, but that's my opinion.

Do you really want him kicked out the country? Because he makes moves that you don't agree and that you think are inconsistent? That's crazy.
I'm a liberal and from my perspective people like Limbaugh and O'Reilly spew tons of inconsistencies on a daily basis, but I don't want them out of the country or even off the air. The fact that they're allowed to spew their nonsense is what makes this country great in the first place.
I just don't get people sometimes.

[xample]

I honestly don't care for Limbaugh or O'Reilly either... any media face that's put to a political side just spits out trash most of the time.

What angers me about Moore is that he does it in such a way that people always buy it. He constantly berates the way we do things in America which is what led to me to say he should be tossed. If you're not happy with the way things are where you live, you move. In this case he seems to be dissatisfied about every aspect of our country, thus he should just move.

As far as sicko goes...

"if Mike thinks health care is expensive now, just wait until it's free." - PJ O'Rourke

[epo]

I'm all about free speech. In fact I have watched some of Moore's work.

But there are people all day long who bash the president and others to the furthest extent. Moore seems to get a free pass and so many people are blinded by his inconsistencies that its ridiculous.

If he wants to keep making his political statements and movies that's great. I for one do not care for him, thus I have the fucking free speech right to call him a jackass and to have him kicked out. It won't happen, but that's my opinion.

You seem like a ok dude, so I'm gonna be nice.

You are right in the fact that it is your right to call Michael Moore a jackass and to ask for his deportation. However in that move you have done two things to hurt your argument:

By insulting him (calling him a jackass, commie, pinko, fat, etc) you hurt the credibility of your own argument. Always attack the argument or point of view rather than the person/group...or you are setting yourself up for appearing crazy.
By asking for something extreme & illegal (such as deportation for the free right to speech) you make yourself completely uncredible and actually put yourself in the world of crazy people such as Shirley Phelps-Roper types.

[prothunderball]

[QUOTE=xample;1375728.

What angers me about Moore is that he does it in such a way that people always buy it. He constantly berates the way we do things in America which is what led to me to say he should be tossed. If you're not happy with the way things are where you live, you move. In this case he seems to be dissatisfied about every aspect of our country, thus he should just move.
[/QUOTE]

Love it or Leave it? Is that what you're saying? How about because you love it, you try and do something to change it. I don't Moore is upset with the way everything is run, but he is obviously not happy with the way a lot of the country is run, as most people should be. And to fault him for making a movie that express his point of view in a way that people buy into is just silly, it's his movie he can make it however he wants to.

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." -Howard Zinn(who I admit isn't nearly as funny as PJ O'Rourke but I'd bet that he is smarter.)

[xample]

You seem like a ok dude, so I'm gonna be nice.

You are right in the fact that it is your right to call Michael Moore a jackass and to ask for his deportation. However in that move you have done two things to hurt your argument:

By insulting him (calling him a jackass, commie, pinko, fat, etc) you hurt the credibility of your own argument. Always attack the argument or point of view rather than the person/group...or you are setting yourself up for appearing crazy.
By asking for something extreme & illegal (such as deportation for the free right to speech) you make yourself completely uncredible and actually put yourself in the world of crazy people such as Shirley Phelps-Roper types.


First off, it's one of those things that I just said. Would I like to see him gone? Sure, I do. Is it going to happen in the society we live in? Of course not.

I have not liked him since 'Bowling for Columbine.' I had to watch an entire audience give the film a standing ovation. There was not one person left in their seat, except for me. The only thoughts I had were the things wrong with his "documentary." I just had to question it.

As far as being crazy, I've known that for years :wacko:

[TheMojoPin]

If you're not happy with the way things are where you live, you move. In this case he seems to be dissatisfied about every aspect of our country, thus he should just move.

The problem with that mentality is that it seemingly implies that everything here is perfect or "the best" and that any criticism or desire for improvement is villified, which makes no sense to me. Very few people accused of "hating America" actually hate America. They may hate or be pissed off at PARTS of America or the American system...but I don't see why having a critical eye is such a terrible thing. It's not like it's making life any worse or even different for the people that don't share those opinions. I've watched pretty much everything he's done, and there seems to be plenty of things that he loves or appreciates about this country...why doesn't that balance out the stuff he's critical about in your eyes? Why do you think he's "dissatisifed about every aspect of our country?" How is that even possible?

[TheMojoPin]

The only thoughts I had were the things wrong with his "documentary." I just had to question it.

OK, the latter part is good. No documentary should be accepted as an absolute truth. Every single one presents a specific or skewed viewpoint. That said, why do you put "documentary" in quotes as if his films aren't documentaries? What makes them not documentaries?

[prothunderball]

You seem like a ok dude, so I'm gonna be nice.

You are right in the fact that it is your right to call Michael Moore a jackass and to ask for his deportation. However in that move you have done two things to hurt your argument:

By insulting him (calling him a jackass, commie, pinko, fat, etc) you hurt the credibility of your own argument. Always attack the argument or point of view rather than the person/group...or you are setting yourself up for appearing crazy.
By asking for something extreme & illegal (such as deportation for the free right to speech) you make yourself completely uncredible and actually put yourself in the world of crazy people such as Shirley Phelps-Roper types.


The problem with that mentality is that it seemingly implies that everything here is perfect or "the best" and that any criticism or desire for improvement is villified, which makes no sense to me. Very few people accused of "hating America" actually hate America. They may hate or be pissed off at PARTS of America or the American system...but I don't see why having a critical eye is such a terrible thing. It's not like it's making life any worse or even different for the people that don't share those opinions. I've watched pretty much everything he's done, and there seems to be plenty of things that he loves or appreciates about this country...why doesn't that balance out the stuff he's critical about in your eyes? Why do you think he's "dissatisifed about every aspect of our country?" How is that even possible?

I really like that whenever I get into a political discussion on this board, these two guys come in and argue my point 10x better than I can. Thanks.

[epo]

First off, it's one of those things that I just said. Would I like to see him gone? Sure, I do. Is it going to happen in the society we live in? Of course not.

I have not liked him since 'Bowling for Columbine.' I had to watch an entire audience give the film a standing ovation. There was not one person left in their seat, except for me. The only thoughts I had were the things wrong with his "documentary." I just had to question it.

As far as being crazy, I've known that for years :wacko:

One of the only things I've learned about politics over my years is that those who criticize a topic are amongst those who actually give a shit about the course of our nation. Those are always people that I want in a free-thinking America. Certainly I don't agree with all of Moore's arguments or his tactics, but his passion always make me re-look at the issues he is discussing.

[xample]

I am really not a political person. I honestly don't even feel like arguing this anymore. With me saying this, I know you're all thinking that I'm a quitter and so forth.

No matter what everything I say is going to be torn apart.

I know there are problems with the way things are run and my simple comment of calling Moore a jackass and saying he should be thrown out of the country seems to have pissed off a lot of people.

I actually enjoy the fact that I'm the only one who thinks this at the moment.

[epo]

I really like that whenever I get into a political discussion on this board, these two guys come in and argue my point 10x better than I can. Thanks.

Don't worry about it man as Mojo & I are simply warming up for that big September Brewers/Cubs argument in the sky.

[xample]

OK, the latter part is good. No documentary should be accepted as an absolute truth. Every single one presents a specific or skewed viewpoint. That said, why do you put "documentary" in quotes as if his films aren't documentaries? What makes them not documentaries?

A specific or skewed viewpoint does not entail the use of any fictious statements.

Documentary: based on or re-creating an actual event, era, life story, etc., that purports to be factually accurate and contains no fictional elements

I believe there are pages of evidences of Moore's inconsistencies and fallacious statements.

[xample]

Regardless of who is right and wrong, I will say this.

I am glad that we have the freedom to discuss a topic like this.
I am glad that he has the freedom to make whatever films he chooses.

It's almost the 4th... we should be celebrating the fact that we can do this.

[TheMojoPin]

A specific or skewed viewpoint does not entail the use of any fictious statements.

Documentary: based on or re-creating an actual event, era, life story, etc., that purports to be factually accurate and contains no fictional elements

I believe there are pages of evidences of Moore's inconsistencies and fallacious statements.

There are pages that argue that, but they mostly come down to whether not his perspective is accurate or not. By the very act of editing, it can be argued that documentaries aren't presenting totally accurate or fair presentations of the subjects they cover. Most of the arguments against Moore drift into that type of territory, and there are usually excellent arguments responding to the claims of his "fictional films."

Now, I'm not pretending like the guy is blameless...all too often he cleary has an agenda and he's targeting footage he is that best backs up his points. He's often sensationalistic and drifts too far into shrill pundit territory for my liking. I just take continual issue with the idea that Moore is some kind of "rouge filmmaker" making films that stand in stark contrast to probably at least 95% of other documentaries out there. He doesn't.

[xample]

There are pages that argue that, but they mostly come down to whether not his perspective is accurate or not. By the very act of editing, it can be argued that documentaries aren't presenting totally accurate or fair presentations of the subjects they cover. Most of the arguments against Moore drift into that type of territory, and there are usually excellent arguments responding to the claims of his "fictional films."

Now, I'm not pretending like the guy is blameless...all too often he cleary has an agenda and he's targeting footage he is that best backs up his points. He's often sensationalistic and drifts too far into shrill pundit territory for my liking. I just take continual issue with the idea that Moore is some kind of "rouge filmmaker" making films that stand in stark contrast to probably at least 95% of other documentaries out there. He doesn't.

Perhaps my problem with Moore lies in my issue with most everything else out there. Everything has become too stylized and commercialized, even documentaries.

[Yerdaddy]

FEMA works just fine. Look at it's entire history of helping people and saving lives. In just one disaster there was a problem, Katrina. And if you knew anything about the problem, you'd see that it was DHS, not FEMA that was the problem. Prior to being brought under the Dept. of Homeland Security FEMA was in independent agency answering to no other department. This allowed them to remain flexible and able to jump into a crisis with little to no notice. The buracracy comes from DHS. after 2002, FEMA was brought under the umbrella of DHS, and thus had to clear every little decision through several layers of decision makers.

as i've stated befoe on this board, a national heathcare system could be a blessing and a curse. it's not the cost, the US can afford it, they just don't want to. What concerns me is having my heath put into the hands of apathetic government workers. I fear that hospitals will become the DMV.

Last time I went to the DMV it was in DC and was just an ATM. The whole process went PDQ and I still had time left in the AM to go to the MD for an ID on my VD.

[Yerdaddy]

Are we not allowed to excommunicate Mikey Moore from America yet?

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/v/W/michalmoore_jackass.jpg

America is a theocracy already? Damn! I had 2009 in the Jesuslandia pool!

[midwestjeff]

Last time I went to the DMV it was in DC and was just an ATM. The whole process went PDQ and I still had time left in the AM to go to the MD for an ID on my VD.

I've been to hell, I spell it, I spell it DMV. And if I had my druthers I'd screw that chimpanzee. Call it, pointless.

[Yerdaddy]

Barbecues, tea kettles, gobs of axle grease

There comes a time for every man to sail the seas of cheese

[POT_BELLY]

makes. But if you want to see him..be my guest!..but please boot leg it..!

[AKA]

Loved the movie.

[high fly]

I meant that FEMA and other bureocracies do more harm than help in my opinion. I think if we do have a national health care system it will be run by a bunch of political appointees, not people in the medical profession. What did ole Brownie know about disaster relief?

http://http://mwhodges.home.att.net/healthcare.htm
36 other countries are able to provide as good or better health care than America and do it for a lot less money.

The fact the right-wingers refuse to address is we are being ripped off by the medical industry. One example is medicine made in the United States can be shipped to another country and then sold back to Americans for far less cost than if they bought it from a supplier here.

We have all heard stories or have our own about wasteful practices or just plain highway robbery by those in health care in this country.

Additionally, another issue the right-wing luddites refuse to address is the fact that for the last 15 years or more health care costs have been rising faster than incomes and more and more of our fellow citizens are going without health care.
A nation as wealthy as ours can afford to give ALL of her citizens health care.

After all, that is what government is for - protecting the citizens, securing their rights and making life more enjoyable.

[MadBiker]

Reason's discussion of The New YorkerArticle on Moore's Sicko (http://reason.com/blog/show/121072.html)

Moore may have good intentions but his documentary is biased towards instituting socialized medicine in America. He highlights the best of what services in the UK and Cuba can offer, but overlooks the long waits for care, the "shuffling" of the elderly, obese, and incurable to the back of the line so more "worthy" recipients can sip from the public healthcare trough, and the expensive extras at healthcare facilities, like tissues, toilet paper, phones, and TVs.

We pay extra fees for all of these things in the US system as well. To leave it out of a discussion of socialized medicine is disingenuous on Moore's part. To make a comparison about the provision of "Free" versus "privately insured" healthcare you have to level the field and compare on a point-by-point basis. Also left out of Moore's film is the principle of "rationing." In a system where all contribute money to the system, you would think that all are able to take equally out of it, but this is not the case. I do not have the same healthcare needs as another 31 year old woman, who may require more or less than I do. Healthcare would have to be rationed by necessity in a socialist system; there is never enough money to go around. The cost of medical treatments outweighs what any one individual can provide, so some are going to get the shaft when they get sick, because they just aren't "sick enough" to justify treatment. The money has already been spent elsewhere.

Also, making an argument purely via anecdote is the poorest way to engage in a discussion leading to meaningful change or new policies. Anecdote preys on emotion. I would rather see an argument based on solid statistics and dollar figures.

I think the healthcare system in the US is flawed, but socializing our system is not the way to go. Looking at the effects of mismanaged health insurance companies, inflated malpractice insurance costs, pharmaceutical R&D and marketing costs, and goverment subsidies for all of the above is a more logical way to approach the beginnings of an overhaul of our healthcare.

[TheMojoPin]

Very good article. Thanks for that, MB.

[MadBiker]

Also, think about the potential consequences of turning over decisions about your healthcare to the State: the State may begin to dictate your way of life in ways you might not find pleasant.

The State may refuse to provide care for illnesses related to lifestyle. Obese? Have a disease due to drug use or alcoholism, or promiscuous sex? The State might treat you if you wait long enough behind the Decent Members of Society, and after they treat you, all that in which you once delighted will be taken away. No more cupcakes, beer, or one-night stands for you, unless you want to be left out of the system because you could not do What The State Said Was Best For You.

[TheMojoPin]

Also, think about the potential consequences of turning over decisions about your healthcare to the State: the State may begin to dictate your way of life in ways you might not find pleasant.

The State may refuse to provide care for illnesses related to lifestyle. Obese? Have a disease due to drug use or alcoholism, or promiscuous sex? The State might treat you if you wait long enough behind the Decent Members of Society, and after they treat you, all that in which you once delighted will be taken away. No more cupcakes, beer, or one-night stands for you, unless you want to be left out of the system because you could not do What The State Said Was Best For You.

Why can't private corporations do the same? Many argue that in some cases they already are.

[MadBiker]

Why can't private corporations do the same? Many argue that in some cases they already are.

Well, they can if they wanted to, and some likely do already. In the current market, I can accept my employers insurance, which is partially subsidized by my employer, or I can pay higher premiums but get healthcare of my own choosing and on my own terms, from a company that will not deny care based on my choice of lifestyle.

It might cost more, but that is one of the many potential consequences of one's decision to smoke, drink, or sleep around (to cite some examples; there are many other vices that could fit here equally).

State run medical care would not offer me a choice, period. No privatized company should be permitted to exist, according to Moore, because it allows those with an economic advantage to receive treatment ahead of someone with insufficient income to have the luxury of better healthcare.

That is socialism in a nutshell: no one should have an advantage over anyone else. Same food, same pay, same healthcare, same living conditions. That is the slippery slope down which you slide when you begin to talk-talk like this. It seems righteous and lovely to speak about a higher standar of care for everyone in one of the richest nations on earth, but we had best be very careful how we go about raising that standard and maintaining The Republic. I am not willing to live in a society where my speech is silenced for the Good of the Many and my intelligence and work ethic squandered for the Sake of the Lazy.

[HBox]

Reason's discussion of The New YorkerArticle on Moore's Sicko (http://reason.com/blog/show/121072.html)

Moore may have good intentions but his documentary is biased towards instituting socialized medicine in America. He highlights the best of what services in the UK and Cuba can offer, but overlooks the long waits for care, the "shuffling" of the elderly, obese, and incurable to the back of the line so more "worthy" recipients can sip from the public healthcare trough, and the expensive extras at healthcare facilities, like tissues, toilet paper, phones, and TVs.

We pay extra fees for all of these things in the US system as well. To leave it out of a discussion of socialized medicine is disingenuous on Moore's part. To make a comparison about the provision of "Free" versus "privately insured" healthcare you have to level the field and compare on a point-by-point basis. Also left out of Moore's film is the principle of "rationing." In a system where all contribute money to the system, you would think that all are able to take equally out of it, but this is not the case. I do not have the same healthcare needs as another 31 year old woman, who may require more or less than I do. Healthcare would have to be rationed by necessity in a socialist system; there is never enough money to go around. The cost of medical treatments outweighs what any one individual can provide, so some are going to get the shaft when they get sick, because they just aren't "sick enough" to justify treatment. The money has already been spent elsewhere.

Also, making an argument purely via anecdote is the poorest way to engage in a discussion leading to meaningful change or new policies. Anecdote preys on emotion. I would rather see an argument based on solid statistics and dollar figures.

I think the healthcare system in the US is flawed, but socializing our system is not the way to go. Looking at the effects of mismanaged health insurance companies, inflated malpractice insurance costs, pharmaceutical R&D and marketing costs, and goverment subsidies for all of the above is a more logical way to approach the beginnings of an overhaul of our healthcare.

Just about every negative aspect of socialized systems is also here. We do it a different way. Rationing? If you can't afford a doctor's visit you will only get treated through an ER, and then only when you are really bad, and they will only stabilize you. Waiting lines? If you don't have insurance or can't afford a procedure or your insurance denied your claim you'll wait forever.

And I think the way presented the other health systems made it pretty obvious that he wasn't giving a balanced, complete look at them. Before he even started he examined the way in which "socialized medicine" has been portrayed here for so long. It's been long vilified. Many of the same people who are complaining that Moore gives an incomplete look are the very same people who have been hyping up isolated horror stories from foreign health systems for years. All we heard for so long was all the negatives to scare people away from change. We've never had a complete look at foreign health systems. And now someone tries to portray the positives and people shit bricks.

In my opinion the whole way that portion of the film was framed was that you don't have anything to fear in these systems. They do work. And they work better than our system.

And one final note. This movie, above anything else, was created to stoke discussion in health care in this country. It was to get people motivated to do something, obviously through Moore's point of view. But just about everyone agrees that SOMETHING needs to be changed, no matter what your solution may be. So it has to evoke emotion and be entertaining. And you're not going to do that being some social policy film with lots of charts and statistics. He did it by putting a human face on the shortcomings of our health system so that people can't look away and ignore.

This is supposed to be the beginning of the debate, not the end.

[HBox]

Also, think about the potential consequences of turning over decisions about your healthcare to the State: the State may begin to dictate your way of life in ways you might not find pleasant.

The State may refuse to provide care for illnesses related to lifestyle. Obese? Have a disease due to drug use or alcoholism, or promiscuous sex? The State might treat you if you wait long enough behind the Decent Members of Society, and after they treat you, all that in which you once delighted will be taken away. No more cupcakes, beer, or one-night stands for you, unless you want to be left out of the system because you could not do What The State Said Was Best For You.

I think it would be appropriate and more than fair to have smokers, obese, etc. pay higher premiums. But I can't imagine having people refused care. And that just wouldn't happen here. People here can vote and if a politician is going to propose a health care system that will deny health care to almost half the nation do you honestly think that it would pass? Or that any politician would be stupid enough to propose such insanity in the first place?

[HBox]

Well, they can if they wanted to, and some likely do already. In the current market, I can accept my employers insurance, which is partially subsidized by my employer, or I can pay higher premiums but get healthcare of my own choosing and on my own terms, from a company that will not deny care based on my choice of lifestyle.

It might cost more, but that is one of the many potential consequences of one's decision to smoke, drink, or sleep around (to cite some examples; there are many other vices that could fit here equally).

I do not think you have an accurate view of the health insurance industry at the moment. Let's just set aside the fact that private health insurance policies are too expensive for the vast majority of people in this country to afford. Do you think that a health insurance company would WILLINGLY insure a smoker? Do you have any idea of some of the ridiculously insignificant pre-existing conditions that insurance companies currently deny coverage for? They are looking for any excuse NOT to cover you.

State run medical care would not offer me a choice, period. No privatized company should be permitted to exist, according to Moore, because it allows those with an economic advantage to receive treatment ahead of someone with insufficient income to have the luxury of better healthcare.

That is socialism in a nutshell: no one should have an advantage over anyone else. Same food, same pay, same healthcare, same living conditions. That is the slippery slope down which you slide when you begin to talk-talk like this. It seems righteous and lovely to speak about a higher standar of care for everyone in one of the richest nations on earth, but we had best be very careful how we go about raising that standard and maintaining The Republic. I am not willing to live in a society where my speech is silenced for the Good of the Many and my intelligence and work ethic squandered for the Sake of the Lazy.

I don't know where that last line came from. But there are so many ways that universal coverage could work that you don't know what kind of freedoms you could or could not have. What we have now is a system that offers people illusions of freedom. In reality you are as free as your insurance company allows you to be. You can go to their hospitals or you can pay your self. You can get procedures they approve or you can pay yourself. You can get drugs they approve of or you can pay yourself. And the pay yourself option isn't an option to all but the very rich.

It comes down to this. Do you want an insurance company bureaucrat in charge of your health care, who has every incentive to find ways not to cover you? Or a government bureaucrat who has every incentive to make sure you stay a healthy, working tax payer?

[badmonkey]

I do not think you have an accurate view of the health insurance industry at the moment. Let's just set aside the fact that private health insurance policies are too expensive for the vast majority of people in this country to afford. Do you think that a health insurance company would WILLINGLY insure a smoker? Do you have any idea of some of the ridiculously insignificant pre-existing conditions that insurance companies currently deny coverage for? They are looking for any excuse NOT to cover you.

I smoke and have smoked for 18years. I have health insurance through work, but before I returned to this company, I had insurance through Blue Cross/Blue Shield. They knew I smoked when I got the insurance. They knew I had smoked for over 10 years when I got the insurance. The insurance I have through my current job knows I smoke as well. I also have life insurance not just through work, but I have life insurance from a private company that also knows I smoke.

10 years ago I was among the uninsured because I was young and didn't think I needed health insurance. How many of the uninsured now feel the same way?

We don't have socialized medicine yet, but the government is already attacking cigarettes, fatty foods, and other "unhealthy" behavior. Not interested...


Badmonkey

[HBox]

I smoke and have smoked for 18years. I have health insurance through work, but before I returned to this company, I had insurance through Blue Cross/Blue Shield. They knew I smoked when I got the insurance. They knew I had smoked for over 10 years when I got the insurance. The insurance I have through my current job knows I smoke as well. I also have life insurance not just through work, but I have life insurance from a private company that also knows I smoke.

10 years ago I was among the uninsured because I was young and didn't think I needed health insurance. How many of the uninsured now feel the same way?

We don't have socialized medicine yet, but the government is already attacking cigarettes, fatty foods, and other "unhealthy" behavior. Not interested...


Badmonkey

I'm not sure how the laws are where you are but some places require that insurers insure everybody who applies. It's not like that everywhere in the country. They aren't going to willingly insure a ticking time bomb unless the law tells them too. It's not smart business.

And why shouldn't the government attack unhealthy behavior? It costs us all a lot of extra money. Everyone loves the phrase "personal responsibility" but no one lives it. When a smoker gets lung cancer do you think it ever goes through their mind "Hmm, this is my fault and my fault alone. I shouldn't burden the health system with my own bad choices. I'll pay for my treatment out of my own pocket, because that's really taking personal responsibility for my own choices."

Nobody does that, and until people stop doing that don't be surprised that the government tries to encourage you to stop.

[AKA]

Washington Nationals Notes: Patterson heading to Canada (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070630&content_id=2058566&vkey=news_was&fext=.jsp&c_id=was)

A day after John Patterson completed his medical tour, four doctors came to the conclusion that the Nationals right-hander has nerve problems in his right elbow and biceps, the same diagnosis that was given to him in early May, when he was placed on the disabled list.

For now, Patterson is avoiding surgery and plans to go to Toronto and get treatments similar to what Athletics closer Huston Street went through recently. Patterson will deal with chiropractors, be in a hyperbaric chamber, have homeopathic injections, lasers and frequency-specific microcurrents. These type of treatments are not approved in the United States.

[high fly]

Sometimes it's a little too obvious when people are jumping all over a film they haven't seen.


His reviews of concerts he hasn't seen and CDs he hasn't listened to are positively boffo!

[xample]

"[The] cure is not to demand more government but less government. I challenge anyone to identify a problem with health care in America that is not caused or aggravated by federal, state and local governments."

~Walter Williams

[Yerdaddy]

"[The] cure is not to demand more government but less government. I challenge anyone to identify a problem with health care in America that is not caused or aggravated by federal, state and local governments."

~Walter Williams

OK. When I needed to get health insurance and was paying cash for a prescription drug already every company I checked out had a pre-existing condition clause and I would have to pay for the insurance but also continue to pay market price for that prescription drug for at least two years, (a drug that as soon as I left the United States I paid 1/4 the retail price for). Now, had I had cancer, diabedes, multiple sclerosis, or some other long-term disease and my insurance company decided to double my premiums or not pay claims or found some other way to fuck me, how could I possibly change companies if all the other available companies have these clauses and wouldn't cover my condition?

So there's a health care problem where it is the "free market" creating conditions where isnurance companies can literally hold sick people hostage simply because they can. Seems to me the only way the problem might ever be solved is for the government to step in and make them change these clauses in order to force the market to become more free. You could say someone could start their own insurance company with policies without this clause, but it aint happened yet. Not where I was living in the States anyway. So the problem seems to me to be too little government.

But you tell me: how has government caused this problem and not the private sector? I'll even give you an audible: show me how the fact that we pay more for health care than anyone else in the world is the government's fault. In fact, show me a health care problem that isn't caused or aggrivated by the private sector.

Or promise never to quote this Walter Williams clown again.

[high fly]

Yerdaddy, what we have is collusion by the medical industry to finance the tennis courts in their back yards with the suffering of others.

15% odf our population has no health care, and that number is growing and there is nothing to stop it.

People don't get prventive care and testing that would prevent devastating illnesses later on that cause them to go bankrupt to pay for it, ruining not just their lives, but the lives of their families as well.
This is unnecessary.

Other countries get

* BETTER CARE

* THEY COVER EVERY CITIZEN

* IT COSTS LESS MONEY


It pisses me off that the French, the FRENCH! for Pete's sakes, do better for their citizens than we do.

[high fly]

"[The] cure is not to demand more government but less government. I challenge anyone to identify a problem with health care in America that is not caused or aggravated by federal, state and local governments."

~Walter Williams

Fair enough, xample.
Just because it is a quote, doesn't make it true.
Here's a couple of links that destroy Mr. Williams' point:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/28/sicko.fact.check/index.html
"Overhead for most private health insurance plans range between 10 percent to 30 percent," says Deloitte health-care analyst Paul Keckley. Overhead includes profit and administrative costs.
"Compare that to Medicare, which only has an overhead rate of 1 percent. Medicare is an extremely efficient health-care delivery system," says Mark Meaney, a health-care ethicist for the National Institute for Patient Rights.


http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/22/2/230
Medicare has enjoyed a lower annual growth rate than private insurance has. Moreover, cumulative analysis shows that Medicare’s spending growth from 1970 through 2000 was lower than that of the private sector.

[xample]

15% odf our population has no health care, and that number is growing and there is nothing to stop it.


Other countries get

* BETTER CARE

* THEY COVER EVERY CITIZEN

* IT COSTS LESS MONEY



Socialized Medicine Myths (http://www.health--savings--accounts.com/article-8-john.htm)

The above article discusses 5 misconceptions of socialized medicine.

So, 15% of our population has no health care. Roughly a 1/3 of those 15% are eligible to get free medical care by joining either the Medicaid program or the State Children’s Health Insurance Program. And yet they don’t bother to enroll.

If you guys are aiming for more government control, then it saddens me that you want to live in a V for Vendetta-type country.

[HBox]

Socialized Medicine Myths (http://www.health--savings--accounts.com/article-8-john.htm)

The above article discusses 5 misconceptions of socialized medicine.

So, 15% of our population has no health care. Roughly a 1/3 of those 15% are eligible to get free medical care by joining either the Medicaid program or the State Children’s Health Insurance Program. And yet they don’t bother to enroll.

If you guys are aiming for more government control, then it saddens me that you want to live in a V for Vendetta-type country.

Yeah, next time try not linking to a source that's selling insurance.

As for that last line, well, this board has a rule against personal attacks, and I am straining, straining to stay within the rules. STRAINING.

I'll just point out that every industrialized country has universal coverage and at least a partially socialized medical system and that V for Vendetta is a work of fiction.

[epo]

Socialized Medicine Myths (http://www.health--savings--accounts.com/article-8-john.htm)

The above article discusses 5 misconceptions of socialized medicine.

So, 15% of our population has no health care. Roughly a 1/3 of those 15% are eligible to get free medical care by joining either the Medicaid program or the State Children’s Health Insurance Program. And yet they don’t bother to enroll.

If you guys are aiming for more government control, then it saddens me that you want to live in a V for Vendetta-type country.

Here's the deal about health care. I don't won't think that those who are aiming for more coverage necessarily want more government control...rather a basic human rights type coverage for those who have no coverage.

Quite frankly it's embarassing that the United States, the richest country in the world, has this type of insurance gap. It's embarassing that the United States, who we as smuggly call ourselves the greatest country in the world have all of these uninsured/underinsured people walking around & doing their part to make us great and not having that basic coverage.

Also...the V for Vendetta shit....you can stop with the hyperbole. You are above that.

[HBox]

Here's the deal about health care. I don't won't think that those who are aiming for more coverage necessarily want more government control...rather a basic human rights type coverage for those who have no coverage.

Quite frankly it's embarassing that the United States, the richest country in the world, has this type of insurance gap. It's embarassing that the United States, who we as smuggly call ourselves the greatest country in the world have all of these uninsured/underinsured people walking around & doing their part to make us great and not having that basic coverage.

Also...the V for Vendetta shit....you can stop with the hyperbole. You are above that.

The ultimate goal is universal health care, meaning everyone has coverage. That could be done a number of ways. An individual mandate for people have insurance coupled with regulations on insurance companies and government subsidies for lower income individuals is the most likely eventual outcome of health care reform. It would be the most similar to what we have today.

Then there is single payer in which the government essentially acts as the insurer for US citizens. They would negotiate prices and pay health care providers. In this scenario there is still a place for private insurance, and if the US ever adopted single payer I can't imagine we would ever not allow private insurance. Basically the government would cover a certain amount and if you wish you can buy a private policy to supplement that.

And then there's completely socialized medicine. The government owns and operates all facilities and employs all doctors. The government controls everything basically.

And there's wiggle room in between. There are so many ways to do it.

[Yerdaddy]

Also...the V for Vendetta shit....you can stop with the hyperbole. You are above that.

Do you have evidence to back this claim up? I got what I expected for a response. He's not interested in facts, evidence, people being held hostage to insurance policies, or the fact that health care rarely conforms to free market theories. He's simply bought the conservative line that capitalism is a religion and requires faith in its infinite benevolence and evidence to the contrary is the devil's clever attempts to lead us astray.

My post was for others who are more open to reason, like baldheadded hot chicks I've got locked up in my basement jail cells.

[Fat_Sunny]

My post was for others who are more open to reason, like baldheadded hot chicks I've got locked up in my basement jail cells.

Are You Still In Cambodia? When Are You Going To Post Some More Travel Pics?

Also, Who/Where From Is Your New Avatar Pic?

[xample]

Do you have evidence to back this claim up? I got what I expected for a response. He's not interested in facts, evidence, people being held hostage to insurance policies, or the fact that health care rarely conforms to free market theories. He's simply bought the conservative line that capitalism is a religion and requires faith in its infinite benevolence and evidence to the contrary is the devil's clever attempts to lead us astray.

My post was for others who are more open to reason, like baldheadded hot chicks I've got locked up in my basement jail cells.

Being open to reason and debating an issue are 2 separate matters. I never once said that I was happy with the way the system runs now. There needs to be a change. The only issues I had were with a completely structured socialized system. There were a lot of people on this thread praising Moore for his fantastic findings, when in all reality those countries are in no better off than we are now. Something needs to be done, I'm not sure of the answer, but I hope our situation is better in our lifetime.

Just because I didn't agree with YOU, does not make me close-minded.

[suggums]

Are You Still In Cambodia? When Are You Going To Post Some More Travel Pics?

Also, Who/Where From Is Your New Avatar Pic?

Martin Sheen having a heart attack during the filming of Apocalypse Now, or thereabouts. This was right after he punched that mirror for real and cut up his hand bad

[Fat_Sunny]

Martin Sheen having a heart attack during the filming of Apocalypse Now, or thereabouts. This was right after he punched that mirror for real and cut up his hand bad

Dammit, F_S Should Have Known That. Thank You!!!

[Yerdaddy]

Being open to reason and debating an issue are 2 separate matters. I never once said that I was happy with the way the system runs now. There needs to be a change. The only issues I had were with a completely structured socialized system. There were a lot of people on this thread praising Moore for his fantastic findings, when in all reality those countries are in no better off than we are now. Something needs to be done, I'm not sure of the answer, but I hope our situation is better in our lifetime.

Just because I didn't agree with YOU, does not make me close-minded.

Bullshit. Being open to reason and debating require one to address the substantive points of the other. You posted another guy's rhetorical challenge meant to make the point that the government is always detriment to health care problems. I answered that challenge with two substantive examples. You avoided addressing my substantive examples and accused me of following the ideology of a fictional authoritarian country.

You posted glib generalizations and demagoguery just have you have throughout this thread and that's why I said I expected it. I was right. I further predict that you will never address the arguments substantive rebuttal to your quote above because you're adhering to an ideological point of view which makes it impossible to see the complexity outside of your view or it's opposing view. You're just going to go on throwing out veiled insults at me and anyone else who doesn't conform to your views. The worst part is you're not even very good at it. I've been attacked by some champs on this board. You're a hack. Stop trying to hit me and hit me.

[Yerdaddy]

Are You Still In Cambodia? When Are You Going To Post Some More Travel Pics?

Also, Who/Where From Is Your New Avatar Pic?

I haven't taken any photos since the last batch went up. Ew! I still haven't been to the Killing Fields because I went with this chick to an animal sanctuary an hour outside of town, forgot my hat and got second degree burns on my dome. Since then I've been mostly gambling. I took third in a poker tourney, took $200 at blackjack at a casino around the corner, won a trivia contest and won some more money at pool. I might give up on journalism and just be a professional gambler taking money off drunken ex-pats in Phnom Penh.

[HBox]

I haven't taken any photos since the last batch went up. Ew! I still haven't been to the Killing Fields because I went with this chick to an animal sanctuary an hour outside of town, forgot my hat and got second degree burns on my dome. Since then I've been mostly gambling. I took third in a poker tourney, took $200 at blackjack at a casino around the corner, won a trivia contest and won some more money at pool. I might give up on journalism and just be a professional gambler taking money off drunken ex-pats in Phnom Penh.

You're turning into the token "local American" who action stars come to when terrorists/drug dealers/weapons dealers kidnap their family and take them to their jungle fortress. I hope you have some good one-liners.

[scottinnj]

Also, Who/Where From Is Your New Avatar Pic?
You're kidding me right? Martin Sheen, Apocalypse Now!

BEST WAR MOVIE EVAH!


I went to Desert Storm wearing a headband and sunglasses like Dennis Hopper's character:


http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o217/themarshal/DennisHopper.jpg

I'm a little man, he's a great man!

Dude, do NOT watch the Redux version....it blows, watch the original one. Moves much better.

Now I'm off for some mangos man....still studying to be a saucie

[Yerdaddy]

You're turning into the token "local American" who action stars come to when terrorists/drug dealers/weapons dealers kidnap their family and take them to their jungle fortress. I hope you have some good one-liners.

"Watch out for the local girls - they shoot back. Knowwhatahmean?"

How's that?

[scottinnj]

I might give up on journalism and just be a professional gambler taking money off drunken ex-pats in Phnom Penh.


Just remember when the chips are down, ask for three bullets. These dinky dow types take their gambling seriously.
Mao!
Mao!
Mao!





http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o217/themarshal/DeerHunter.jpg

[Yerdaddy]

You're kidding me right? Martin Sheen, Apocalypse Now!

BEST WAR MOVIE EVAH!


I went to Desert Storm wearing a headband and sunglasses like Dennis Hopper's character:


http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o217/themarshal/DennisHopper.jpg

I'm a little man, he's a great man!

Dude, do NOT watch the Redux version....it blows, watch the original one. Moves much better.

Now I'm off for some mangos man....still studying to be a saucie

I had that avitar up and should still now, since I'm in Cambodia rather than Nam, and I'm looking into working as a journalist here. But I think about the Sheen one whenver I stay in really shitty hotels with ceiling fans like I've got in Phnom Penh.

[scottinnj]

Okay, back to topic. Can someone explain to me how the French medical system works? I have heard this is the model that we should be looking at for our "universal health care" system.
Skeptical, but listening. Looking for links.

[HBox]

"Watch out for the local girls - they shoot back. Knowwhatahmean?"

How's that?

That's good. Now you have to practice pretending to run away in fear but at the action hero's greatest moment of peril storming in out of nowhere and saving his ass.

And I'm telling you right now: at some point you're taking a bullet, and no matter how much you tell the hero to leave you behind, GODDAMMIT!, he ain't leaving you behind.

And you better now who to pilot a copter or a river boat or some time of weird hybrid off-road vehicle because you're the one who's piloting the getaway vehicle.

[scottinnj]

Yerdaddy ain't got time to bleed.

[scottinnj]

And I'm telling you right now: at some point you're taking a bullet, and no matter how much you tell the hero to leave you behind, GODDAMMIT!, he ain't leaving you behind.




http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o217/themarshal/uncommon_valor.jpg

GODDAMMIT, Yerdaddy, I'm not leaving you behind!

[HBox]

Okay, back to topic. Can someone explain to me how the French medical system works? I have heard this is the model that we should be looking at for our "universal health care" system.
Skeptical, but listening. Looking for links.

Here's a blog post describing France's health care system. I DARE YOU not to fall asleep. (http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2005/04/health_care_fra.html)

[scottinnj]

Dude, it's four in the morning. German porn can't keep me awake. Much drinking to do tomorrow/today too.

BTW, Happy fourth of july HBOX. Go punch a tory.

Edit: will print and read tomorrow in my drunken 4th stupor. Will reply when sober. Don't wait for it.

[scottinnj]

Interesting story attached to the link you gave me HBOX. (http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0309-03.htm) I can't believe I'm still up and reading.

[scottinnj]

Intriguing, but a couple of questions:
1. I'm assuming my private health insurance premium will remain the same, so how much higher will my Medicare taxes go up?

2.

France is the only country where access to care is unlimited. Patients can see as many doctors as they damn well please. They don't need referrals to see specialists, and there's basically no gatekeepers at all (this is going to change, recent reforms mandate a principal doctor -- a gatekeeper -- if you want full reimbursement).

The health care system is mainly under state control. The state plans out hospitals, the allocation of specialized equipment, etc. Some of this is done at the regional level, a trend which seems to be increasing. The hospitals offer about 8.4 beds per 1,000 people (America, btw, offers 3.6. Ouch.) The public sector provides 65% of the beds, private hospitals -- which operate on a fee-for-service basis -- make up the rest, and primarily concentrate on surgeries. French citizens choose which one to go to and get the same reimbursement at either. How's that for choice? Not good enough? The French also get to choose their physicians, their physicians get to choose where they practice, and there's patient-client confidentiality.

Okay, all this sounds great, and I would like to see that type of care here, but where I italicized, THE STATE plans out hospitals blah blah blah. It goes back to my other post like 100 posts ago in this thread: can our state be trusted to do this as well as the French?
If so, I'm kind of interested.

This sounds like a good idea. I would like to see the cost, and how efficient it would be in our country, before I go with it. A great plan won't work if you can't afford to fund it or hire screwups to implement it.

But HBox, thanks for the link, it made the French system easier to understand. I like it better then Senator Obama's (http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/HealthPlanFull.pdf) plan if he makes it to the White House. However Senator Obama's plan I like on pages 9-11 concerning less paperwork and emphasis on Prevention.

[EffMeBoobs]

I saw the movie. We suck.

I'm moving to France so I can get 5 weeks off from work and to have the government come do my laundry and cook my meals.

[drjoek]

USA Weekend Box-Office Summary
week of 6 July 2007 Rank Title Weekend Gross
1 Transformers (2007) $67.6M $153M
2 Ratatouille (2007) $29M $110M
3 Live Free or Die Hard (2007) $17.4M $84.2M
4 License to Wed (2007) $10.4M $17.8M
5 Evan Almighty (2007) $8.11M $78.1M
6 1408 (2007) $7.14M $53.8M
7 Knocked Up (2006) $5.16M $132M
8 Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer (2007) $4.15M $124M
9 Sicko (2007) $3.65M $11.5M
10 Ocean's Thirteen (2007) $3.52M $109M

For all the talk about Michael Moore and his influence his Liberal clap trap has drawn 11M in two weeks. Maybe he will be able to buy a hat to fit over his gigantic ego with the meager returns on his movie.
Go ahead flame away but

I HATE Michael MOORE

[Snacks]

USA Weekend Box-Office Summary
week of 6 July 2007 Rank Title Weekend Gross
1 Transformers (2007) $67.6M $153M
2 Ratatouille (2007) $29M $110M
3 Live Free or Die Hard (2007) $17.4M $84.2M
4 License to Wed (2007) $10.4M $17.8M
5 Evan Almighty (2007) $8.11M $78.1M
6 1408 (2007) $7.14M $53.8M
7 Knocked Up (2006) $5.16M $132M
8 Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer (2007) $4.15M $124M
9 Sicko (2007) $3.65M $11.5M
10 Ocean's Thirteen (2007) $3.52M $109M

For all the talk about Michael Moore and his influence his Liberal clap trap has drawn 11M in two weeks. Maybe he will be able to buy a hat to fit over his gigantic ego with the meager returns on his movie.
Go ahead flame away but

I HATE Michael MOORE

wow hatred has lead to not knowing what your talking about. The movie cost 9 mil to make. So in 2 weeks it is already profitable. The movie is also in limited release only 700 locations compared to tranformers at 4000+. Avg per location was higher then die hard, license to wed, Evan Almighty and more.

This movie will be nominated for an Oscar, it has been given top reviews even by republican and conservatives. Faux News even loved it.

Look at the link to see for yourself.

Understand the business before you speak.

http://boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/

[Crispy123]

Understand the business before you speak.


Its Dr Joe, so maybe he does...


Go ahead flame away but

I HATE Michael MOORE

Oh I am Flaming right Now!!!

[drjoek]

wow hatred has lead to not knowing what your talking about. The movie cost 9 mil to make. So in 2 weeks it is already profitable. The movie is also in limited release only 700 locations compared to tranformers at 4000+. Avg per location was higher then die hard, license to wed, Evan Almighty and more.

This movie will be nominated for an Oscar, it has been given top reviews even by republican and conservatives. Faux News even loved it.

Look at the link to see for yourself.

Understand the business before you speak.

http://boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/

If you read my post I made my point. For all its hype and Michael Moore's ego it will make 20 million dollars tops. As far as the profitability I could care less. It is in Limited release because it is of limited interest. Much less then it is made out to be by the media. As far as nominated for an Oscar Please don't tell me that that means anything to any one but the liberal hollywood elite. And finally my last point was my only opinion...

I HATE MICHAEL MOORE He is a pompous exploitive blowhard who makes himself the story and massages the facts to suit his needs. His Geurilla tactics are self serving and mostly Bull shit

Again feel free to flame I'm wearing asbestoes jockeys

[Snacks]

If you read my post I made my point. For all its hype and Michael Moore's ego it will make 20 million dollars tops. As far as the profitability I could care less. It is in Limited release because it is of limited interest. Much less then it is made out to be by the media. As far as nominated for an Oscar Please don't tell me that that means anything to any one but the liberal hollywood elite. And finally my last point was my only opinion...

I HATE MICHAEL MOORE He is a pompous exploitive blowhard who makes himself the story and massages the facts to suit his needs. His Geurilla tactics are self serving and mostly Bull shit

Again feel free to flame I'm wearing asbestoes jockeys

once again learn the business. Its in limited release because its an indy. It has a huge amount of interest surrounding the film thats why they expanded by 250 more locations this week. Indy films have less money and no distibution so they are not allowed in every movie house. It also costs a lot to make thousands of reels and Indy Docs will never make huge amounts. If a doc makes a few million its a considered huge.

You hate Moore for being as you say a pompous blowhard. Please tell me you feel that Bush, Cheney and Rove are the same if not 10times worse?

[drjoek]

once again learn the business. Its in limited release because its an indy. It has a huge amount of interest surrounding the film thats why they expanded by 250 more locations this week. Indy films have less money and no distibution so they are not allowed in every movie house. It also costs a lot to make thousands of reels and Indy Docs will never make huge amounts. If a doc makes a few million its a considered huge.

You hate Moore for being as you say a pompous blowhard. Please tell me you feel that Bush, Cheney and Rove are the same if not 10times worse?

We'll agree to disagree about the movie As far as the next part of your question Those three have isues to numerous to mention but I'm not sure if pompous blowhard is the issue.
Lets go listento the boys Vacation recap :thumbup:

[HBox]

USA Weekend Box-Office Summary
week of 6 July 2007 Rank Title Weekend Gross
1 Transformers (2007) $67.6M $153M
2 Ratatouille (2007) $29M $110M
3 Live Free or Die Hard (2007) $17.4M $84.2M
4 License to Wed (2007) $10.4M $17.8M
5 Evan Almighty (2007) $8.11M $78.1M
6 1408 (2007) $7.14M $53.8M
7 Knocked Up (2006) $5.16M $132M
8 Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer (2007) $4.15M $124M
9 Sicko (2007) $3.65M $11.5M
10 Ocean's Thirteen (2007) $3.52M $109M

For all the talk about Michael Moore and his influence his Liberal clap trap has drawn 11M in two weeks. Maybe he will be able to buy a hat to fit over his gigantic ego with the meager returns on his movie.
Go ahead flame away but

I HATE Michael MOORE

It's a documentary. It's not going to make a shitload of money. And it's in a limited amount of theaters. It made more money per theater than Die Hard last week and had the smallest drop of any film this week. It's doing perfectly fine for what it is.

[AKA]

For all the talk about Michael Moore and his influence his Liberal clap trap has drawn 11M in two weeks. Maybe he will be able to buy a hat to fit over his gigantic ego with the meager returns on his movie.

Ask any documentary filmmaker if they would like an $11.5 million dollar grossing movie, and they would scream YES.

Fahrenheit 9/11 is the exception and not the rule - it was the perfect storm as far as non-fiction movies goes - it cost $6 million and made $119, and is the biggest grossing doc of all time. The second biggest grossing documentary is Bowling for Columbine (also from Michael Moore), and it made $21 million in domestic box office gross. Sicko, more than likely, will surpass that.

[scottinnj]

I saw the movie. We suck.

I'm moving to France so I can get 5 weeks off from work and to have the government come do my laundry and cook my meals.



You Lazy poof.:tongue:

[Think]

I just watched the movie. Probably his best since 'Roger and Me'. I dont agree with everything... but I have to say MM has grown on me alot.

I dont know if everyone going to Cuba is really the answer... but I have to say I was teary eyed when the 9-11 workers met with the Cuban fire department. People in general can relate on a human level. This is something that is easy to lose sight of.

The health care industry makes me sick... just like any insurance, they work on profit margin and screw honest people in the process. I have coverage though my work, but have to pay based on a percentage of my total bill (This is good for a check up, but bad for surgery, major dental, etc.). I beat the heat by not going to the doctor and crossing my fingers. Im very thankful that I have been lucky up to this point.

People protest in the streets about foul language and political incorrectness, but stick their head in the sand on issues that affect people on a personal level.

[MrPink]

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/web_expanded_articles/411MIL_Team07015.jpg

Why should I take medical advice from someone who can't take care of himself? Him and Al Gore should focus on manbearpig and leave me alone.

[Snacks]

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/web_expanded_articles/411MIL_Team07015.jpg

Why should I take medical advice from someone who can't take care of himself? Him and Al Gore should focus on manbearpig and leave me alone.

some people and the right love to change the topic of a good message. Hes not telling anyone how to live a healthy lifestyle hes just telling everyone that if and when we need healthcare in this country 40 million will not be able to. Also those that do have are getting fucked by small print and other shit. That even those that already pay dont get what they are paying for.

He has even said he knows hes not healthy and hes glad he can afford to go to a Dr. But most cant. This movie wanst made by him to tell everyone eat steamed chicken and veggies. Hes not like the right wing party. You knw how the right is, do as I say but I will do as I want to do and even if illegal we will make new laws to get over and still do what we want.

[high fly]

Reason's discussion of The New YorkerArticle on Moore's Sicko (http://reason.com/blog/show/121072.html)

Moore may have good intentions but his documentary is biased towards instituting socialized medicine in America. He highlights the best of what services in the UK and Cuba can offer, but overlooks the long waits for care, the "shuffling" of the elderly, obese, and incurable to the back of the line so more "worthy" recipients can sip from the public healthcare trough, and the expensive extras at healthcare facilities, like tissues, toilet paper, phones, and TVs.

Scared of the "s" word, eh?
How is it you object to foreigners who have to wait for health care, but are not concerned for 15% of our population which is not even elligible to get to the back of the line?
Talk about rationing!

Healthcare would have to be rationed by necessity in a socialist system; there is never enough money to go around. The cost of medical treatments outweighs what any one individual can provide, so some are going to get the shaft when they get sick, because they just aren't "sick enough" to justify treatment. The money has already been spent elsewhere.

Wrong.
They get the treatment no matter whether they can afford it or not.
In America, when you go for treatment of non-life-threatening injury, the first thing they do is come out there, clipboard in hand, and ask how you will pay for it.
In other countries, not only do they cover everyone, but they do it for less cost per patient.
And cost is important to you, isn't it?



Also, making an argument purely via anecdote is the poorest way to engage in a discussion leading to meaningful change or new policies. Anecdote preys on emotion. I would rather see an argument based on solid statistics and dollar figures.

I agree.
The review in the Washington Post said about the same.
The numbers I have seen show in many parts of the U.S., we have survival rates of newborn babies that one would expect in the Third World.
Other numbers show us paying twice as much or even more per patient than other countries.
Other numbers show us not living as long.


I think the healthcare system in the US is flawed, but socializing our system is not the way to go. Looking at the effects of mismanaged health insurance companies, inflated malpractice insurance costs, pharmaceutical R&D and marketing costs, and goverment subsidies for all of the above is a more logical way to approach the beginnings of an overhaul of our healthcare.

Overcoming cliches about "rationing" and "socialized medicine" which tend to put blinders on people is also important.
The fact is, the government has done some things well.
I had the good fortune to go to a government miltary school system which provided an education superior to all but the best private schools.
I'd rather have a government-run defense force than hired-out rent-a-warriors.
They did pretty good putting in that electrical grid and delivering the mail, both especially to rural areas where the expense was offset by the fact that an American was living back there, and Americans deserve a modicum of service.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/22/2/230

Medicare has enjoyed a lower annual growth rate than private insurance has. Moreover, cumulative analysis shows that Medicare’s spending growth from 1970 through 2000 was lower than that of the private sector.



Right now we are having our lugs ripped out in costs, plus we are not covering 15% of our population.

We can do far better.

[Midkiff]

Dudes, seriously - this movie is fucking brilliant.

I also agree 100% that we ought to switch to socialized medicine.

By the end of this I was totally ready to pack my bags and move to another country. But since I am doing that anyway, hooray for me!

[buzzard]

I enjoy the fact that Moore keeps getting closer to the point that he's trying to make,instead of the crappy graphs & smart-ass rhetoric.