Simplicity And Contentment

[Gvac]

Chapter 80 of The Tao Te Ching -


Let there be small countries with few people.

Let the people have no use for complicated machinery.
Let them be mindful of death so that they don't move too far from their birthplaces.

If there are boats and carriages, let there be nowhere to take them to.
If there are weapons, let there be no occasion to display them.

Let the people's responsibilities be few enough that they may remember them by knotting a string.

Let them enjoy their plain food, be content with their simple clothes, be satisfied with their humble homes, and take pleasure in their customs.

Though the next country may be close enough to hear the barking of its dogs and the crowing of its rooster, let the people grow old and die without ever feeling compelled to visit it.



Discuss.

[sailor]

sounds boring. also sounds like you're trying to resign yourself to the "latest lull in the board (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61256)"

[IMSlacker]

I'd bet Laozi would change his tune if he'd ever gotten a hold of an iPhone!

[Don Stugots]

simple is the way to be. who needs a fancy car or clothes? people should take the time to enjoy where they are at rather than where they want to go.

[King Hippos Bandaid]

is Gvac giving us homework

:king:

[Don Stugots]

is Gvac giving us homework

:king:

dont all old people?

[Gvac]

sounds boring.

If you were truly content and you delighted in all the simple things in your life do you truly think it would be "boring" to you?

I can also assure you that with the passage of time all of the "exciting" things in life aren't all that thrilling anymore.

This has always been a favorite passage of mine from the Tao and it came to mind because I got word that my mother was rushed to the hospital this evening up in Vermont where she lives. The line "Let them be mindful of death so that they don't move too far from their birthplaces" came to mind.

Hopefully the situation with my mom is nothing so serious, but it definitely struck a chord.

With each passing year, though, I do see the beauty in simplicity more and more.

[Don Stugots]

thoughts n prayers to Momma GVAC.

[sailor]

sorry to hear about your mom. hope all is well.

still don't like the philosophy tho, but if it makes you happy, that's what matters. :)

[Gvac]

Thanks for the well wishes, Stugots and Sailor. It's much appreciated.

What's the thing that makes you dislike the passage so much, Sailor?

[sailor]

Thanks for the well wishes, Stugots and Sailor. It's much appreciated.

What's the thing that makes you dislike the passage so much, Sailor?

just sounds so backwoods small town. i'm so glad my father moved up here before i was born. i couldn't take that rural lifestyle. also, there's the human desire for exploration.

edit: my father keeps talking of moving back to where he grew up, but it's just so alien to me.

[Don Stugots]

where?

[sailor]

worthington, wv. just west of the "big city" of fairmont. as of 2007, wikipedia is reporting the population at 939. pretty place, but nothing to do.

btw, i bet that simplistic lifestyle doesn't allow for satellite radio or internet radio.

[Don Stugots]

it might not. i dont know. but i know i do not need a huge mc mansion or a LEXUS truck. i dont need to keep up with the jones' to prove that i am successful.

[burrben]

i've always been a fan of the idea of simplicity. i love to read thoreau's "walden"

part of me wants to move to mississippi and open a general store

[sailor]

it might not. i dont know. but i know i do not need a huge mc mansion or a LEXUS truck. i dont need to keep up with the jones' to prove that i am successful.

no, that stuff i totally see. the quote went a lot further than that, to me.

[Don Stugots]

maybe it does. i know i pass up job offers for more money because i feel like it is obscene to make more than what i do now. i also know what they want in return for that $$$. i am content with where i am. i want us to get a bigger place which we could afford but the rents are still sick. other than that, i try to live a simple life.

[RoseBlood]

For me, "simplifying" is not purely the idea of "going back to the land", though I do want to include nature into my life. It isn't about living cheaply, though I'm all for reducing expenditures.

Living simply means reducing the scale while maintaining the comfort level I'm accustomed too. It means attempting to eliminate the complexity, and minimizing the time demands of life as I know it in a modern/progressive society.

I could say let's just get rid of all the things that cause me headaches, beit material goods or straining relationships, but life is complicated enough to warrant implementing such extreme measures. I don't think disgarding all modern conviences would make me happier.

Wise men and women in every major culture throughout history have found that the secret to happiness is in getting more but in wanting less. If this statement is true then wouldn't it be fair to assume if accumulating 'things' doesn't bring true happiness then disgarding 'things' also wouldn't bring us true happiness?

I believe, that taking just one or two steps in my life will provide the level of simplicity I need to fully enjoy the other areas of my life, it's all just a big rotating circle, one thing affects another. This could probably work for everyone, keeping in mind that my version of 'simplicity' is another's complexity and vice versa. Choosing to bow out of the holiday madness may be liberating for some, but might complicate others lifes beyond words, only the individual can decide. So, to paraphrase Henry David Thoreau, take advantage of the movement of the times and simplify...

A quote that is fitting with Gvac's:

... I am poor and naked, but I am the chief of the nation. We do not want riches but we do want to train our children right. Riches would do us no good. We could not take them with us to the other world. We do not want riches. We want peace and love.

-Red Cloud [Makhpiya-luta] (late 19th century)
Sioux chief

[cougarjake13]

i agree with the simplistic aspect of it but not the have no desire to travel to another country or not move far from your birthplace

i'm very inquisitive and nomadic by nature and it drives me nuts when i live somewhere too long


but i definitely live a minimalist lifestyle, only buy the things i need to survive, nothing in excess

[Crispy123]

The Prophet Jesus said, ""When you make the inner like the outer, and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower… When you make the male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male, and the female will not be female… then will you enter the Kingdom of God."
Gnostic Gospels: Gospel of Thomas

However, Lao-Tzu goes on to say,
"True words do not sound beautiful;
beautiful sounding words are not true.
Wise men don't need to debate;
men who need to debate are not wise".

[JPMNICK]

i like the idea of a simpler life, but at the same time I like nice things and fancy watches and cars. I am torn.

I think I have a nice balance in my life. I do not stress about getting things, and if I do not have something and I want it, i either save for it or just realize I will not be able to have it.

I also try to spend as much time with family as possible. Every sunday I go see my parents for dinner. I hang out with my cousins as much, if not more than my friends. I try not to work to hard.

I think balance is the key to everything. if you feel one thing pulling you to much, you have to make a change. you have to work because as much as it sucks, money runs the world. and just because you do not agree with it does not mean it is going to change.

[epo]

Gvac...nothing on this Earth reminds me of a good summer vacation than the works of Lao Tzu...

I have always read simplicity to be that of the possessor. It will change via the environment, but there is never a reason to further complicate one's life.

My life is Wisconsin, while amongst members of my north central Wisconsin family is complex is merely simple compared to my surroundings, due to the fact that I have avoided the unnecessary tidings of "normal" life from mine. And while my life is "simple" to that of the Gvac in the tri-state area....he infact may live a simple life in context to his area of home.

The irony is that through the trials of life we all travel the globe and my mindset has delivered me approximately 1 hour from my birthplace despite my travels. I have picked up something from all of those travels, learned much from the natives, found the brave in daring the world, and yet live so close to home as it has become the best place to me to live as I have never been happier.

[RoseBlood]

i like the idea of a simpler life, but at the same time I like nice things and fancy watches and cars. I am torn.

...I do not stress about getting things, and if I do not have something and I want it, i either save for it or just realize I will not be able to have it.

I think balance is the key to everything. ...money runs the world. and just because you do not agree with it does not mean it is going to change.

I pretty much agree with all of the above. I too feel slighty torn between wanting nice things and trying to simplify my life. I know I don't need most of the things I want. I can accept not having the latest gadgets, the trendiest wardrobe or the fanciest car. I'm not so sure I'd want all those, I'm too frugal. I drive a basic, practical car, my wardrobe is fairly simple, I rarely if ever wear jewelry, I don't like knick knacks and clutter, I don't wear or even own alot of make-up, my hair is pretty simple. I will say my one weakness is shoes/sneakers, but I recently disgarded/gave away a big bag full. I'm not fooling myself though, if I could afford it, I'd probably buy a hot car.. lol

[JPMNICK]

I pretty much agree with all of the above. I too feel slighty torn between wanting nice things and trying to simplify my life. I know I don't need most of the things I want. I can accept not having the latest gadgets, the trendiest wardrobe or the fanciest car. I'm not so sure I'd want all those, I'm too frugal. I drive a basic, practical car, my wardrobe is fairly simple, I rarely if ever wear jewelry, I don't like knick knacks and clutter, I don't wear or even own alot of make-up, my hair is pretty simple. I will say my one weakness is shoes/sneakers, but I recently disgarded/gave away a big bag full. I'm not fooling myself though, if I could afford it, I'd probably buy a hot car.. lol

i too live well below my means, but if when the time comes to have kids, if i decide that I do not want kids, that will be the day I own a Range Rover and a Zenith watch. for now I am saving money for a house, retirement, and maybe kids one day.

[yojimbo7248]

I think you need to be careful not to read the Tao Te Ching too literally. Classical Chinese is made up of characters that have even more levels of meaning than modern Chinese. I think it's safe to say that Laozi wasn't proposing literal plan for running a society. I'd love to read some of the commentaries on chapter 80. I beat this is all metaphorical and much more difficult to understand than the English translation makes it seem.

[yojimbo7248]

So, to paraphrase Henry David Thoreau, take advantage of the movement of the times and simplify...

I agree. I think this is at the heart of Chapter 80. I think it is more about inner simplicity than literally living a life uncluttered with things. The Taoist did live very simple lives but I think they were more concerned with cutting off mental attachments than selling your stuff.

[mikeyboy]

I think yojimbo just called GJ dumb.

[yojimbo7248]

I think yojimbo just called GJ dumb.

just saying generations of Chinese scholars have debated, analyzed Tao Te Ching for a couple of centuries. Part of the imperial exam was commenting on Tao Te Ching commentaries. Maybe on one level, Laozi was calling for a more simple society but without a doubt there are many, many levels of meaning.

OK, I am sounding like a douche. I'll shut up.

[mikeyboy]

Did you hear that, Greg? Dumb. You gonna take that?

[yojimbo7248]

Did you hear that, Greg? Dumb. You gonna take that?

ha, yeah, Greg, you dumbshit. where are you?

[GregoryJoseph]

Chris and I have spoken about philosophy before and shall do so again.

Taoism is surely not the only philosophy or religion to caution against attachment to material things.

Even Catholic priests take a vow of poverty, but that's in name only.

My desire for a clutter free existence is not the "one true path" but it's MY path.

I don't believe there is one universal way to the truth.

It's getting there that counts.

[yojimbo7248]

Chris and I have spoken about philosophy before and shall do so again.

Taoism is surely not the only philosophy or religion to caution against attachment to material things.

Even Catholic priests take a vow of poverty, but that's in name only.

My desire for a clutter free existence is not the "one true path" but it's MY path.

I don't believe there is one universal way to the truth.

It's getting there that counts.

yep, without a doubt Laozi and Chuangzi cautioned about attachment to material things. My only point is that both were reacting to Confucian and Buddhist clutter of rituals, rules and they were also talking about philosophical simplicity. It was the Taoist influence that led to Buddhist stripping down the clutter and creating Zen.

[yojimbo7248]

I love Taoism and there's tons about it I don't know. I just know that the classical texts have been debated for centuries and I don't think English translations capture the density and depth of the originals.

[GregoryJoseph]

I love Taoism and there's tons about it I don't know. I just know that the classical texts have been debated for centuries and I don't think English translations capture the density and depth of the originals.

Absolutely. That's why I collect as many translations as possible.

I think you really have to meditate on them to get to the true meaning, however.

[yojimbo7248]

Absolutely. That's why I collect as many translations as possible.

I think you really have to meditate on them to get to the true meaning, however.

absolutely. meditation is the key, more important than translation.

I'd like to hear more about your Taoist beliefs. I knew some martial arts guys who used Taoist methods when I lived in Taiwan. They integrated Taoism into their diet, breathing, concentration, qi flow.

[midwestjeff]

If you are meditating on your translated "x" but the actual meaning was intended to be "xfjkslei" then how could you ever expect to come to the same place as someone that wrote or read the original message?

And don't give me the whole "the Tao transcends language" speech because that is just repeating the results of bad translation.

[yojimbo7248]

If you are meditating on your translated "x" but the actual meaning was intended to be "xfjkslei" then how could you ever expect to come to the same place as someone that wrote or read the original message?

And don't give me the whole "the Tao transcends language" speech because that is just repeating the results of bad translation.

you bring up a very good point. Generally, though, I think the translations are accurate enough that you wouldn't get the "x" intended to be "xfjkslei" problem that you mention. Recent translations appreciate the nuance in the language better than the older ones.