Navy probes Marines in captives' deaths

[Crispy123]

The story is here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070706/ap_on_re_us/marines_fallujah)

This kills me. These men and women are trained to fight and kill. We ask them to do this and then we want to prosecute them for it??? The heads of the Justice Dept, the White House, and numerous other government agencies are thieves and liars but its the people who actually put their lives on the line that get prosecuted and serve jail time.

Even in Abu Graib(sp) the leadership wasn't an issue. It was young men and women at the lowest levels, put in horrible situations, without guidance or truth, that are ultimately held accountable, not the people that put them in these situations. Im f*ing disgusted.

[foodcourtdruide]

The idea of 5-10 unarmed captived being killed doesn't disgust you?

[Crispy123]

The idea of 5-10 unarmed captived being killed doesn't disgust you?

Yes. It is a shame that people die. Saddam Hussein had been doing this for several decades to the unarmed Iraqi people. We went to war with Iraq supposedly because of a connection to 9/11 and WMD's. This was blatantly false. The people who are responsible for these falsehoods should be held accountable, not the people we sent in to clean house. War is hell and mistakes will be made. I have more tolerance and leniency for people who F up during the fog of War than politicians who manufacture intelligence and sell it to the American people from the safety of Washington DC.

[cupcakelove]

It is horrible that the people actually responsible everything going on over there are not going to be held accountable for anything, but there still needs to be accountability at all levels.

[foodcourtdruide]

Yes. It is a shame that people die. Saddam Hussein had been doing this for several decades to the unarmed Iraqi people. We went to war with Iraq supposedly because of a connection to 9/11 and WMD's. This was blatantly false. The people who are responsible for these falsehoods should be held accountable, not the people we sent in to clean house. War is hell and mistakes will be made. I have more tolerance and leniency for people who F up during the fog of War than politicians who manufacture intelligence and sell it to the American people from the safety of Washington DC.

I agree that the higher ups should take more responsibility for these things.

[Crispy123]

It is horrible that the people actually responsible everything going on over there are not going to be held accountable for anything, but there still needs to be accountability at all levels.

True but there will never be accountability for anyone other than these enlisted soldiers. Yes killing unarmed combatants is wrong. All of these soldiers have been taught this from the time they were in boot camp. Unfortunately, when these soldiers make bad decisions people die.

The Officer in Charge of these Marines maybe will be relieved of command and asked to "retire". No accountability, just cover your ass. Scooter Libby paid $250,000 and got probation for a felony related to this war, no big deal. He was offered up because the Commander-in-Chief couldn't have his right hand man involved in this mess.

Truth and Justice are perverted in this country but nobody gives a shit. I can't really feel bad for the dead because they are in a different place right now. I can only feel sorrow for the next generation that has to deal with the cheapening of truth, justice, and the American way.

[Yerdaddy]

I'm totally with you in disgust that it's only the soldiers at the bottom that are held accountable for most of these abuse stories. I think most presidents in the past would have taken much more responsibility for abuses and ordered more training and reinforcement of the military's various laws of war after Abu Ghraib and Haditha had come to light. Unfortunately this White House, in trying to get themselves out from thier legal responsibilities to conform to the Geneva Conventions have simply thrown the soldiers doing their fighting under the bus. It's a pattern; it's standard operating procedure for these people. And it really hurts the country as a whole and will for a long time.

Unfortunately, given the general partisanship and general apathy in America the only chance we really had to hold them accountable was November '07 - before this incident even happened. We elected not to throw the bums out. So the top gets away with murder and the soldiers get charged.

The only thing half-positive I can say for the higher-ups is that at least they aren't really looking for war crimes to prosecute. In almost every case of charges being brought against soldiers, or even investigations by the military, there's only been any action taken by the military after the press has investigated and reported the incidents. In this case it was a book-writer and then the Secret Service reporting the soldier's statements that led to the investigation. There was another case of a room full of zip-tied Iraqis being killed in Fallujah during the same battle that was captured on film - most famously the soldier shooting the guy point-blank with a shotgun. After the tape ran on the news, (after being shown to the military, if I remember right), there was an investigation in which the soldier with the shotgun thought the guy was boobie-trapped and no charges were brought. In the case of Abu Ghraib there had been investigations prior to Seymour Hersh breaking the story but the abuses were still going on. There weren't any criminal investigations brought and the abuses weren't stopped until after the press reports, (and again, Seymour Hersh showed the military what he had and he agreed at their request to delay the story to give them time to come up with a response causing 60 Minutes to scoop him on the story). In Haditha it was TIME Magazine, I believe, who had heard about the killings of civillians and they spent weeks investigating before they published their story and the military hadn't apparently even looked into it during TIME's investigation.

So obviously the civilian and uniformed Pentagon leadership and the White House aren't too interested in busting anyone for anything.

But I said "half-positive" (and I was being extremely generous) because war crimes committed by our soldiers do serious damage to the overall mission in this kind of war. It does damage to many other aspects of American security as well, but this is the most important because it gets other soldiers killed and it betrays the purpose the more than 3,500 soldiers have died for over there. It is a simple fact that the majority of US soldiers are doing their jobs lawfully and honorably. And it's a simple fact that when the few that abuse Iraqis and violate the rules of war they have to be punished for the sake of the mission, the country's honor, and the honor and purpose of the rest of the troops. It's also what separates us from the enemy.

And in case anyone's tempted to blame the press or the whistleblowers for exposing these things - these acts were already exposed to the Iraqis long before we found out about them. The abuses at Abu Ghraib were known across Iraq for months before they were reported in the press. The Christian Peacemakers organization (who had four of its members kidnapped and one of them killed) had been investigating the abuses for months; I met other NGO staff who were there who knew about it; and I met two young Iraqis in Amman in January '05 who had been abused in Abu Ghraib months earlier, as had many of their friends. Same went for Haditha - the Iraqis knew. Breaking the stories or reporting the abuses to superiors stops the problem and saves American lives over there. It does nothing to aid the enemy when they already know about it. It hurts the enemy's propaganda and support when the Iraqis know we're holding soldiers accountable for abuses against them. But covering this shit up from them is impossible - it can only be kept from us.

That's what was so shameful about the fact that the Abu Ghraib whistleblower can't even live in his hometown anymore because too many people consider him a traitor. That's the sign of a seriously fucked up and ignorant culture when the guy who saved American lives is considered a traitor rather than the ones who disgraced us.

End of rant.

Oh by the way, I predict there will be no charges filed against any of the Marines. Like the Marine defense attorney said in the article: Fallujah was "nearly destroyed" in that battle and with it the evidence.

[Snacks]

True but there will never be accountability for anyone other than these enlisted soldiers. Yes killing unarmed combatants is wrong. All of these soldiers have been taught this from the time they were in boot camp. Unfortunately, when these soldiers make bad decisions people die.

The Officer in Charge of these Marines maybe will be relieved of command and asked to "retire". No accountability, just cover your ass. Scooter Libby paid $250,000 and got probation for a felony related to this war, no big deal. He was offered up because the Commander-in-Chief couldn't have his right hand man involved in this mess.

Truth and Justice are perverted in this country but nobody gives a shit. I can't really feel bad for the dead because they are in a different place right now. I can only feel sorrow for the next generation that has to deal with the cheapening of truth, justice, and the American way.

you lost me on that comment, please explain?

[Yerdaddy]

you lost me on that comment, please explain?

He believes in reincarnation, (right?). Read his posts in the omnipresent "Do you believe in God?" threads and it makes perfect sense. It's not because they're Iraqis or anything.

Or what if they came back as Afghanis? Boy THAT would suck, wouldn't it?

[epo]

Yes. It is a shame that people die. Saddam Hussein had been doing this for several decades to the unarmed Iraqi people. We went to war with Iraq supposedly because of a connection to 9/11 and WMD's. This was blatantly false. The people who are responsible for these falsehoods should be held accountable, not the people we sent in to clean house. War is hell and mistakes will be made. I have more tolerance and leniency for people who F up during the fog of War than politicians who manufacture intelligence and sell it to the American people from the safety of Washington DC.

This is the argument that drives me fucking batty: "Saddam did it for years".

Ok fine, Saddam did it. But aren't we as a society supposed to be better than that? Aren't we supposed to be the ones who are evolved as a culture and above the tactics of Saddam Hussein?

It just seems that everytime our government fucks something up, the right wing talking machine drags out the "Saddam did it for years" argument. Abu Ghraib? "Saddam did it for years". Torture and kill some captives in an Iraqi town? "Saddam did it for years".

The argument is old, tired and most importantly takes us off of our high horse. We were supposedly the "morally superior" ones entering this war and by doing this shit we have sacrificed that high ground.

[EliSnow]

This is the argument that drives me fucking batty: "Saddam did it for years".

Ok fine, Saddam did it. But aren't we as a society supposed to be better than that? Aren't we supposed to be the ones who are evolved as a culture and above the tactics of Saddam Hussein?

It just seems that everytime our government fucks something up, the right wing talking machine drags out the "Saddam did it for years" argument. Abu Ghraib? "Saddam did it for years". Torture and kill some captives in an Iraqi town? "Saddam did it for years".

The argument is old, tired and most importantly takes us off of our high horse. We were supposedly the "morally superior" ones entering this war and by doing this shit we have sacrificed that high ground.

I agree. Shit, when the government was gearing the country up for an invasion, it constantly pointed to Saddam doing this shit as a reason why we needed to overthrow his government. We can't accuse him of doing something, and then when we're put into leadership, do similar things.

I don't disagree that blame should go to all levels, but that doesn't mean the low level grunts who do commit these crimes don't face accountability either.

[Crispy123]

I think most presidents in the past would have taken much more responsibility for abuses and ordered more training and reinforcement of the military's various laws of war after Abu Ghraib and Haditha had come to light. Unfortunately this White House, in trying to get themselves out from thier legal responsibilities to conform to the Geneva Conventions have simply thrown the soldiers doing their fighting under the bus. It's a pattern; it's standard operating procedure for these people. And it really hurts the country as a whole and will for a long time.


You and I agree on pretty much a lot of points. I would say the press has done a good job but I myself am torn about my feelings towards whistle blowers. True they shouldn't be harassed as much as they are but I feel a lot of the time they do what is only in their best interest.

This is the argument that drives me fucking batty: "Saddam did it for years".


My point is only that I am not as disgusted about hearing Iraqi's die as some only because I have been dealing with the situation since the mid-90's. For many people Saddams abuses only were blips on the radar until our country went to war, only when our sons and daughters start dieing does anyone care and then only until Paris Hilton pops back up in the news.

Shit, when the government was gearing the country up for an invasion, it constantly pointed to Saddam doing this shit as a reason why we needed to overthrow his government. We can't accuse him of doing something, and then when we're put into leadership, do similar things.


True. I just think if we hold the guys at the bottom accountable for war crimes then certainly the General Officers, Joint Chiefs, SecDef, Senate Armed Svcs Commitee, etc. should be as well. I am sad that shit rolls downhill.:down:

[sailor]

this really depresses me. just not smart.

[Yerdaddy]

You and I agree on pretty much a lot of points. I would say the press has done a good job but I myself am torn about my feelings towards whistle blowers. True they shouldn't be harassed as much as they are but I feel a lot of the time they do what is only in their best interest.

I've never seen a whistleblower recieve any personal gain from their actions, only personal loss. The Abu Ghraib guy can't even go home again. Have you seen any cases that looked like a soldier gained anything personally for exposing this stuff?

My point is only that I am not as disgusted about hearing Iraqi's die as some only because I have been dealing with the situation since the mid-90's. For many people Saddams abuses only were blips on the radar until our country went to war, only when our sons and daughters start dieing does anyone care and then only until Paris Hilton pops back up in the news.

That would be the first Bush administration. As they transitioned from Reagan to Bush they commissioned the State Department to do a report so they could assess whether to continue to support Saddam or not. It was mere months after the Anfal genocide campaign against the Kurds had been made public. They decided he was A-OK and even killed a couple of Congressmen'sl bills that would have imposed token cuts in aid as a message of disapproval for genocide. And that is the same guys in the Bush II administration - the same guys the right backed in this thing up until this year. The right never really gave a shit about Iraqis. But this should be more than obvious at this point.