Close the Hummer Tax Loophole

[epo]

Finally a piece of legislation that makes sense. Oregon Representative Earl Blumenauer has introduced legislation to close the $25,000 tax loophole in the federal tax code for "small businesses" that purchase Hummers or Cadillac Escalades.

Link to ABC article here. (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=3326593&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)

Not only are those vehicles are trainwreck in terms of energy consumption & environmental waste, but the loophole is pretty expensive. A conservative estimate has the federal government saving $750 million over the next 10 years by closing the loophole (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1182569109232380.xml&coll=7).

It will be interesting to see what the bill does from here. I'm sure after some manuevering the house will pass it. Then if it does get through the senate...what would W do with it?

[Yerdaddy]

I thought this was another thread about Paris Hilton getting out of jail early.

[Fat_Sunny]

Not only are those vehicles are trainwreck in terms of energy consumption & environmental waste, but the loophole is pretty expensive. A conservative estimate has the federal government saving $750 million over the next 10 years by closing the loophole.

The U.S. Manufacturing Base Shrinks Year By Year, And The Companies That Are Left Actually Producing Goods In The USA Can Barely Compete With China, Indonesia, Mexico...Well, You Know The List.

Assuming That These Two Vehicles Are Made In The US, Does Epo Know How Many Good, High-Paying Jobs This "Loophole" (Or Shall We Call It An "Incentive") Has Kept In The US? F_S Does Not Know The Answer. But Closing "The Man's" Loophole, Also Closes Joe 6-Pack's Job!!!

[PapaBear]

The U.S. Manufacturing Base Shrinks Year By Year, And The Companies That Are Left Actually Producing Goods In The USA Can Barely Compete With China, Indonesia, Mexico...Well, You Know The List.

Assuming That These Two Vehicles Are Made In The US, Does Epo Know How Many Good, High-Paying Jobs This "Loophole" (Or Shall We Call It An "Incentive") Has Kept In The US? F_S Does Not Know The Answer. But Closing "The Man's" Loophole, Also Closes Joe 6-Pack's Job!!!
I doubt many people who buy those things would have chosen NOT to buy them, if this ridiculous tax incentive wasn't there. They were flying off the lots before it was enacted.

[weekapaugjz]

But Closing "The Man's" Loophole, Also Closes Joe 6-Pack's Job!!!

i like joe 6-pack. let's keep his job.

[Fat_Sunny]

I doubt many people who buy those things would have chosen NOT to buy them, if this ridiculous tax incentive wasn't there. They were flying off the lots before it was enacted.

F_S Knows Loads Of People Who Own Small Businesses And He Can Rattle Off About 10 Who Bought One Of These Two Vehicles Because Of Special Loopholes. He's Not Sure If It Was The One Epo Speaks Of, Or Another One They Had In 2003 That Allowed A Business To Write Off A Large Vehicle In ONE Year, Rather Than The Normal Ten Or Whatever It Was. (F_S Is Not Sure Whether This Is The Same Or A Different Incentive From Epos's).

People Who Would Never In A Hundred Years Have Considered Buying One Of These Behemoths Bought One Because Of The Favorable Tax Treatment! And That Kept Joe Employed In Detroit Or Wherever!!

[PapaBear]

Hummers are ASSEMBLED (http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article.php?a_id=108161) in Shreveport, LA. Note that the link says "assembled". I'm guessing it's pretty much like most vehicles these days. The parts are made over seas, and they are assembled in the USA. If that's the case, you're not helping Joe 6 Pack by buying a Hummer, than you would if you bought an small or mid sized "import" car that is assembled here.

[Yerdaddy]

The U.S. Manufacturing Base Shrinks Year By Year, And The Companies That Are Left Actually Producing Goods In The USA Can Barely Compete With China, Indonesia, Mexico...Well, You Know The List.

Assuming That These Two Vehicles Are Made In The US, Does Epo Know How Many Good, High-Paying Jobs This "Loophole" (Or Shall We Call It An "Incentive") Has Kept In The US? F_S Does Not Know The Answer. But Closing "The Man's" Loophole, Also Closes Joe 6-Pack's Job!!!

Don't you mean Yakov 6-Pack, since you're clearly advocating government subsidy of industry and so you must be a communist?

[Fat_Sunny]

Hummers are ASSEMBLED (http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article.php?a_id=108161) in Shreveport, LA. Note that the link says "assembled". I'm guessing it's pretty much like most vehicles these days. The parts are made over seas, and they are assembled in the USA. If that's the case, you're not helping Joe 6 Pack by buying a Hummer, than you would if you bought an small or mid sized "import" car that is assembled here.

Well, Papa, F_S Would Be Delighted If They Extended Tax Incentives For Businesses For ANY Vehicle That Will Keep Americans Employed At Good Wages. Yeah, It's Stupid To Have It Only For The Two Biggest Gas Guzzlers, But How ABout If Incentives Were Given For The Purchase Of Any American-Made Vehicle?

Then The Problem Is, As You Suggest, How Do You Define "Made In America"?

[Fat_Sunny]

Don't you mean Yakov 6-Pack, since you're clearly advocating government subsidy of industry and so you must be a communist?

Lowering Taxes Paid By Individuals And Businesses Is The Opposite Of What Communism Would Do!

[PapaBear]

Well, Papa, F_S Would Be Delighted If They Extended Tax Incentives For Businesses For ANY Vehicle That Will Keep Americans Employed At Good Wages. Yeah, It's Stupid To Have It Only For The Two Biggest Gas Guzzlers, But How About If Incentives Were Given For The Purchase Of Any American-Made Vehicle?

Then The Problem Is, As You Suggest, How Do You Define "Made In America"?
That could be a fair compromise, but it will never happen. As for the "Made In America" issue... Almost all vehicles are assembled here, with parts manufactured overseas. We'll NEVER return to the days of vehicles being completely manufactured here.

I drive a 2000 Chevy Prizm. It's the same car as the 2000 Toyota Corolla. They were both assembled in the same plant in California. All of the engine parts are stamped "Toyota". There's almost no such thing as an "American car".

On a side note... I win by having the Chevy instead of the Toyota. By having the word "Chevy" on my car, the Blue Book value is lower than that of the Toyota (even though it's the same car). Therefore, my property tax and insurance costs are less.

[HBox]

F_S Knows Loads Of People Who Own Small Businesses And He Can Rattle Off About 10 Who Bought One Of These Two Vehicles Because Of Special Loopholes. He's Not Sure If It Was The One Epo Speaks Of, Or Another One They Had In 2003 That Allowed A Business To Write Off A Large Vehicle In ONE Year, Rather Than The Normal Ten Or Whatever It Was. (F_S Is Not Sure Whether This Is The Same Or A Different Incentive From Epos's).

People Who Would Never In A Hundred Years Have Considered Buying One Of These Behemoths Bought One Because Of The Favorable Tax Treatment! And That Kept Joe Employed In Detroit Or Wherever!!


So when American cars get even shittier, just up the tax break and everything is A-OK.

God Bless America.

[HBox]

Lowering Taxes Paid By Individuals And Businesses Is The Opposite Of What Communism Would Do!

And artificially creating a market for overpriced crap is the opposite of what any good capitalist would do.

[Fat_Sunny]

So when American cars get even shittier, just up the tax break and everything is A-OK.

God Bless America.

And artificially creating a market for overpriced crap is the opposite of what any good capitalist would do.

What Do You Know About Cars, Anyway? The Vehicle You Drive Was Made By John Deere! :D

[weekapaugjz]

What Do You Know About Cars, Anyway? The Vehicle You Drive Was Made By John Deere! :D

JZ take personal offense to this comment. JZ's grandfather sold john deeres for his career and did a fantastic job at that (the grandfather whom JMZ is named after). one could make the bad mistake of buying an international or new holland...

[PapaBear]

What Do You Know About Cars, Anyway? The Vehicle You Drive Was Made By John Deere! :D
Circa 2002...


Representing the first significant investment in a new North American diesel engine manufacturing plant in an arguable number of years, the Deere Power Systems Group (DPSG) has begun production at Motores John Deere. A 490,000 sq.ft. engine manufacturing facility in Torreon, Mexico, Motores John Deere is 100 percent owned by Deere & Co. reporting through DPSG. The plant currently employs about 310 people with employment expected to be about 500 at full production.

<STYLE type=text/css>.fa_inline_results, .fa_inline_results.left { margin-right: 20px; float: left; width: 220px;}.fa_inline_results.right { margin-left: 20px; margin-right: 0;}.fa_inline_results h4 { margin: 0; font-size: 8pt; border-bottom: 1px dotted #c3d2dc;}.fa_inline_results ul { list-style-type: disc; list-style-position: outside; color: #3769DD; margin: 0 0 15px 15px; padding: 0;}.fa_inline_results ul li { margin: 0; padding: 0;}.fa_inline_results ul li.title { color: #333; list-style-type: none; font-weight: bold;}.fa_inline_results ul li.articles { color: #333; list-style-type: none;}</STYLE><!-- if there is a query term, show widget --><!-- code re-engineered from partners/us/search_art_main --><!-- BEGIN WIDGET: FA RELATED RESULTS --><!-- END WIDGET: FA BLINKX -->Deere's new $100+ million Torreon operation is the first new diesel plant to be built in North America since 1994 or 1982 depending on exactly how you define "new" engine manufacturing. See the accompanying story for more on this debate.
Motores John Deere becomes the fifth engine plant in Deere's diesel manufacturing network joining DPSG's headquarters at the Engine Works in Waterloo, Iowa, as well as facilities in Dubuque, Iowa, Saran, France, and Rosario, Argentina.


Yes.. they're still manufactured in Iowa, too. But I'll bet a lot of the tractors sold in the US are manufactured in Mexico.

[Fat_Sunny]

JZ take personal offense to this comment. JZ's grandfather sold john deeres for his career and did a fantastic job at that (the grandfather whom JMZ is named after). one could make the bad mistake of buying an international or new holland...

Man, You Are Touchy Tonight!!!

That Was Not A Dig At Tractors Or Even Hayseeds, It Related To A Tractor Comment HBox Made To F_S Many Months Ago (Edible Tractors).

Your Grandfather's Legacy Is Safe And Respected!!

[weekapaugjz]

Man, You Are Touchy Tonight!!!

That Was Not A Dig At Tractors Or Even Hayseeds, It Related To A Tractor Comment HBox Made To F_S Many Months Ago (Edible Tractors).

Your Grandfather's Legacy Is Safe And Respected!!

JMZ is just messing around. anytime john deere comes up, which this is the first JMZ has encountered, he must speak up.

[HBox]

I'll have you all know I have my edible tractors manufactured and assembled in Italy. They know taste there. When I want them taste like Fruit Roll-Ups I'll make them here.

[Yerdaddy]

Circa 2002...

Representing the first significant investment in a new North American diesel engine manufacturing plant in an arguable number of years, the Deere Power Systems Group (DPSG) has begun production at Motores John Deere. A 490,000 sq.ft. engine manufacturing facility in Torreon, Mexico, Motores John Deere is 100 percent owned by Deere & Co. reporting through DPSG. The plant currently employs about 310 people with employment expected to be about 500 at full production.


Yes.. they're still manufactured in Iowa, too. But I'll bet a lot of the tractors sold in the US are manufactured in Mexico.

You're confusing that product with the Juan Deere tractor, now with bouncing hydraulic suspension, Tammy Faye Tropical Teardrop paintjob, extra legroom in the trunk and deportion-proof pro-life Republican bumper sticker. And if you buy now you're autimatcally qualified to enter our Juan Deere Prize Sweepstakes with a fabulous grand prize of access to health care!*



*Juan Deere can only guarantee the worst possible health care America has to offer. Your child suffering from a 24 hour fever can be expected to be seen by a "doctor" within 48 hours in a waiting room. Offer invalid if immigrant family does not express sufficient gratitude to have said health care prize.

[Yerdaddy]

i like joe 6-pack. let's keep his job.

And yet your sig pic portrays a British zombie movie. What do you have against Joe American zombie movie worker?

[Crispy123]

From the article, "He explains that the provision in the tax code was originally intended to allow farmers and small-business owners to recover the cost of buying trucks and heavy-duty working vehicles."

They definitely need to change it from people buying luxury SUV's and get back to the original intent. Maybe only diesel trucks should qualify, then we could move towards biodiesel and its win-win for everyone- but the H2 and Escalade crowd.

[Midkiff]

And yet the hybrid vehicle tax break has long since gone.

Perhaps we should just have a tax break for hybrid or alternative fuel cars that are also made in America. That sounds fair all around.

[scottinnj]

I doubt many people who buy those things would have chosen NOT to buy them, if this ridiculous tax incentive wasn't there. They were flying off the lots before it was enacted.



That wasn't true. This was a ridiculous tax break that fueled sales of SUVs (http://www.selfemployedweb.com/suv-tax-deduction-4.htm) far beyond normal supply and demand. The vehicles were relatively out of reach price wise from most consumers, but with the tax break, "small business" owners bought them like hotcakes and simply wrote them off on that year's taxes. I see these things parked all over my neighborhood. Most can't even fit in the garages that are attached to the houses that have a property value that equals the MSRP of the SUV.


Edit:

Business owners such as Dean Parker in Mobile, Ala., discovered the benefit applied to SUVs weighing more than 6,000 pounds. Parker, who owns a paging service, spent $108,000 on a Cayenne and a Hummer H2 in June. He uses them for sales and service calls. Tax savings: $37,800.

Same thing here. Real Estate agents, "lawn care" owners and mom and pop computer repair businesses snatched up Hummers around here as fast as GM could make 'em. The civilian Hummer is the most useless vehicle ever fucking built. It is too wide for our trails, too big for our garages, and uses too much fuel to justify running around fixing computers or supervising the illegals you got from Home Depot to cut your customer's lawns. Too stiff a ride to drive people to show houses to, and not enough cargo room to justify being a "work" truck.
All in all, the Hummer blows. I am a GM man through and through, and I HATE HUMMERS!!! And calling it a Hummer makes me giggle as well.

Huuhuhhuhhuuuhuuuh...you said "hummer"

[sailor]

in this global economy, there's a very good chance that "foreign" cars are made here, at least in part.

[scottinnj]

And yet the hybrid vehicle tax break has long since gone.

Perhaps we should just have a tax break for hybrid or alternative fuel cars that are also made in America. That sounds fair all around.

If we are "addicted to oil" like the President said, he should have reenacted that tax break simply by executive order. For national security.

[scottinnj]

Well, Papa, F_S Would Be Delighted If They Extended Tax Incentives For Businesses For ANY Vehicle That Will Keep Americans Employed At Good Wages. Yeah, It's Stupid To Have It Only For The Two Biggest Gas Guzzlers, But How ABout If Incentives Were Given For The Purchase Of Any American-Made Vehicle?

Then The Problem Is, As You Suggest, How Do You Define "Made In America"?
I'm right with you with Joey the six pack, but I hope he is drinking Mountain Dew! (Waka Waka!) But if the demand fades for a Hummer, but explodes for a hybrid or another type of vehicle, the plants will stay open except instead of making 13 MPG monsters they'll be cranking out 38 MPG sedans. A simple matter of retooling.

[sailor]

are we certain the hybrid tax credit (http://hybridcars.about.com/od/news/a/hybridtaxcredit.htm) is expired?

[scottinnj]

are we certain the hybrid tax credit (http://hybridcars.about.com/od/news/a/hybridtaxcredit.htm) is expired?


Me read article, Me no understand credit versus deduction. Me Stupid. Help Me.

[HBox]

Me read article, Me no understand credit versus deduction. Me Stupid. Help Me.

Let's say that you earn $60,000 and $45,000 of that is taxable. Let's apply a deduction to that. The deduction means that you subtract the amount of the deduction from the taxable amount. So a $2000 deduction in this case means that $43000 is taxable. Let's apply a theoretical 20% tax to that. You'd owe $8600 in taxes.

Now instead let's apply a tax credit. You'd have $45000 in taxable income. 20% of that is $9000. A tax credit is subtracted from the total amount of taxes you'd owe. So let's apply a $2000 tax credit. You now owe $7000 in taxes.

[sailor]

Me read article, Me no understand credit versus deduction. Me Stupid. Help Me.

tax credit is better all things being equal. credit reduces your actual taxes by x dollars. deduction lowers your taxable income of which only a portion is the tax amount. let's say you make 50k and pay 10% taxes (just round numbers). 10% of 50k is 5k. no, let's look at a 3k deduction and a 3k credit. 3k deduction lowers your taxable income to 47k, 10% of which is $4700...savings of $300. 3k credit, your original 5k tax bill is lowered to 2k...savings of that full 3k.

[sailor]

Let's say that you earn $60,000 and $45,000 of that is taxable. Let's apply a deduction to that. The deduction means that you subtract the amount of the deduction from the taxable amount. So a $2000 deduction in this case means that $43000 is taxable. Let's apply a theoretical 20% tax to that. You'd owe $8600 in taxes.

Now instead let's apply a tax credit. You'd have $45000 in taxable income. 20% of that is $9000. A tax credit is subtracted from the total amount of taxes you'd owe. So let's apply a $2000 tax credit. You now owe $7000 in taxes.

bastard.

[HBox]

tax credit is better all things being equal. credit reduces your actual taxes by x dollars. deduction lowers your taxable income of which only a portion is the tax amount. let's say you make 50k and pay 10% taxes (just round numbers). 10% of 50k is 5k. no, let's look at a 3k deduction and a 3k credit. 3k deduction lowers your taxable income to 47k, 10% of which is $4700...savings of $300. 3k credit, your original 5k tax bill is lowered to 2k...savings of that full 3k.

Of course you being the heartless pig capitalist would use a 10% tax in your example and me being the pinko communist would use a 20% tax.

[sailor]

Of course you being the heartless pig capitalist would use a 10% tax in your example and me being the pinko communist would use a 20% tax.

lol i've just done a lot of tutoring and know the nice super-round numbers work the best. :)

[scottinnj]

10%, 20%


You say tomato....


And thanks for the explanation.

tax credits equals more gooder then tax deduction.


Got it.

[HBox]

lol i've just done a lot of tutoring and know the nice super-round numbers work the best. :)

And I've done enough tutoring to know that if I did that example in person and he still didn't get it I'd get so frustrated I'd punch him the face.

It's why I don't tutor........... anymore.

[epo]

The U.S. Manufacturing Base Shrinks Year By Year, And The Companies That Are Left Actually Producing Goods In The USA Can Barely Compete With China, Indonesia, Mexico...Well, You Know The List.

Assuming That These Two Vehicles Are Made In The US, Does Epo Know How Many Good, High-Paying Jobs This "Loophole" (Or Shall We Call It An "Incentive") Has Kept In The US? F_S Does Not Know The Answer. But Closing "The Man's" Loophole, Also Closes Joe 6-Pack's Job!!!

Fat, I'm really surprised by your stance on this issue. Here is why:

1. It's very bad long-term energy policy. By falsely encouraging a larger number of these vehicles our nation consumes more energy than necessary. We all know the consequences of doing this.

2. It's bad federal economic policy. $750 million over ten years is a chunk of change. We could be using that money to be developing/encouraging domestic energy solutions or balancing the budget.

3. The Joe Six-Pack argument is actually pretty weak in this case. So you are saying that this theoretical "trickle-down" tax policy is the only way that GM could be creating these jobs? Come on Fat, you underestimate the American worker!

4. And this one I'm shocked by...it's anti-capitalist! Why should one manufacturer of goods receive a basic government subsidy while others don't? This should drive free market Republicans batshit insane!

[sailor]

And I've done enough tutoring to know that if I did that example in person and he still didn't get it I'd get so frustrated I'd punch him the face.

It's why I don't tutor........... anymore.

yeah, i was the same way. i'd get so pissed if people don't get math i was showing them.

[Snacks]

Quote:
Business owners such as Dean Parker in Mobile, Ala., discovered the benefit applied to SUVs weighing more than 6,000 pounds. Parker, who owns a paging service, spent $108,000 on a Cayenne and a Hummer H2 in June. He uses them for sales and service calls. Tax savings: $37,800.


Let these small business owners be just like every other working slob. Buy a car you can afford. If they can afford a gas guzzler or a $100k car before these tax beaks then they dont need the break they are doing fine without them.

The only reason govt gave these tax break incentives was to help oil companies and car companies. They didnt do it for farmers to buy new farm tractors or vehicles to work on the farm. If they wanted to do that they wouldnt have said vehicles weighing 6000 lbs. They would have tax breaks on tractors not all heavy vehicles.

How about giving some tax breaks to people that actually need them.

[scottinnj]

4. And this one I'm shocked by...it's anti-capitalist! Why should one manufacturer of goods receive a basic government subsidy while others don't? This should drive free market Republicans batshit insane!


You're becoming a conservative epo, and you're goddamned right! I fucking hate government subsidies for certain segments of our economy.....farm subsidies, energy subsidies, transportation industry subsidies, auto subsidies, airline subsidies, and so on and so forth.


Whatever happened to competition, and the government staying out of private industry except to keep monopolies forming and that no cheating is done.

[prothunderball]

the government staying out of private industry except to keep monopolies forming and that no cheating is done.

it seems like that the exact opposite of the government is doing these days

[scottinnj]

it seems like that the exact opposite of the government is doing these days

Another reason why fiscal conservatives like me are sick and tired of this administration. I made up my mind today thinking about how I defended the Administration because they say they are "conservative" but in reality make us real conservatives look like jackasses, especially when we burn up bandwidth defending the defenseless.
Sorry fellow Republicans, I'm punching out of this disaster. HBox, Yerdaddy, please cut and paste this post where ever I defend Bush or the White House ever again to remind me not to be a fucking retard.
Conservatives should know better. Out of control spending is not what helps the economy, and any gains made in the treasury by stable and reasonable tax rates are washed away by deficit spending. I used to accept the fact that since we are at war, deficit spending is a necessary evil. Unfortunately, this Administration has taken what was a budget surplus, turning it into a budget deficit greater then the Reagan era or the first four years of Clinton, while taking that money that is being borrowed and pissing it away by fucking up what should have been a no brainer invasion and reconstruction of Iraq.

[JPMNICK]

Another reason why fiscal conservatives like me are sick and tired of this administration. I made up my mind today thinking about how I defended the Administration because they say they are "conservative" but in reality make us real conservatives look like jackasses, especially when we burn up bandwidth defending the defenseless.
Sorry fellow Republicans, I'm punching out of this disaster. HBox, Yerdaddy, please cut and paste this post where ever I defend Bush or the White House ever again to remind me not to be a fucking retard.
Conservatives should know better. Out of control spending is not what helps the economy, and any gains made in the treasury by stable and reasonable tax rates are washed away by deficit spending. I used to accept the fact that since we are at war, deficit spending is a necessary evil. Unfortunately, this Administration has taken what was a budget surplus, turning it into a budget deficit greater then the Reagan era or the first four years of Clinton, while taking that money that is being borrowed and pissing it away by fucking up what should have been a no brainer invasion and reconstruction of Iraq.


you have a great point. one of the benefits of bringing a republican into office is to control spending, not to do shit like this. in fact, this who administration is out of control.

[FUNKMAN]

http://finance.yahoo.com/loans/article/103200/Minority-Families-Face-Wave-of-Foreclosures

More than a quarter million black and Hispanic families are expected to lose their homes in the next few years due to foreclosure. For many, the financial trouble will be traceable to a mortgage they should never have been given.

The problem is worse for minority borrowers, consumer advocates say, because they were disproportionately pushed into these subprime mortgages even when, in some cases, they qualified for conventional financing. Subprime loans are generally made to those with blemished credit histories.

Compared with their white counterparts, African American and Hispanic borrowers were more than 30% more likely to receive a higher rate on many types of loans, even after accounting for differences in risk


Just another example of people at the lower end of the financial ladder getting fucked over. While they give these tax breaks not only to these hummer buyers but the wealthiest americans received the highest tax break when Bush took office.

[Don Stugots]

i first heard about this loophole last year when i was looking for a new truck and since i am incorporated i thought "what the hell?" i took one for a test drive (hummer) and was really turned off. it is too much and glutoness. Now an Escalade is a work of art and comfort. i didnt think it was practical at all so i passed.

[PapaBear]

I still like the "If I wanted a Hummer, I'd call your sister" stickers I keep seeing on Jeeps.

[scottinnj]

That's awesome. I gotta get one for my S-10.

It makes me laugh. Thanks PappaBear.

[Fat_Sunny]

Fat, I'm really surprised by your stance on this issue. Here is why:

1. It's very bad long-term energy policy. By falsely encouraging a larger number of these vehicles our nation consumes more energy than necessary. We all know the consequences of doing this.

2. It's bad federal economic policy. $750 million over ten years is a chunk of change. We could be using that money to be developing/encouraging domestic energy solutions or balancing the budget.

3. The Joe Six-Pack argument is actually pretty weak in this case. So you are saying that this theoretical "trickle-down" tax policy is the only way that GM could be creating these jobs? Come on Fat, you underestimate the American worker!

4. And this one I'm shocked by...it's anti-capitalist! Why should one manufacturer of goods receive a basic government subsidy while others don't? This should drive free market Republicans batshit insane!

Don't Be Surprised By Anything F_S Says These Days. He Freely Admits To Being In A State Of Confusion. It Is Not Just The Alzheimer's, But It Is Also That Things Are Changing So Quickly And There Are So Many Cross-Currents, And So Many Big Things Happening Without The People/Government Giving It Much Thought!

Yes, F_S Is, 100% For An Energy Independent USA, And Therefore Encouraging Gas-Guzzler Vehicle Production Seems Silly. On The Other Hand, The Speed With Which The American Manufacturing Base Is Being Eroded Has Become A Huge Concern. High Tech And Intellectual Property And All That White Glove Stuff We Do Now Is Great, But The Fact That We No Longer Make Steel And Furniture And Soon Maybe Not Autos And 1,000 Other "Hard Goods" Concerns F_S For This Reason: If The Mid-East Controls Our Oil And If China Controls Our Manufactured Goods, Including The Important Stuff Like Steel, And Either Decides To Pull The Plug, Or Blackmail Us With High Prices, We Are In Deep Doo.

So Forget The Specific Issue Of The Escalade Subsidy; F_S Would Just Like To See Us Encourage (a) Alternate Energy Production, And (B) U.S. Manufacturing At ALL Levels, By Whatever Fair And Reasonable Means Possible.

Tax Credits For R&D + Tax Incentives To Buy ANY Important American-Made Goods Are Things F_S Thinks It Is Appropriate To Consider, Without Being Labeled A Commie.

Without Wanting To Sound Silly Or Alarmist, F_S Thinks It Is Beyond Just "Tinkering" At This Point, It Has Become Almost A Matter Of National Security.

[Crispy123]

Yes, F_S Is, 100% For An Energy Independent USA, And Therefore Encouraging Gas-Guzzler Vehicle Production Seems Silly. On The Other Hand, The Speed With Which The American Manufacturing Base Is Being Eroded Has Become A Huge Concern. High Tech And Intellectual Property And All That White Glove Stuff We Do Now Is Great, But The Fact That We No Longer Make Steel And Furniture And Soon Maybe Not Autos And 1,000 Other "Hard Goods" Concerns F_S For This Reason: If The Mid-East Controls Our Oil And If China Controls Our Manufactured Goods, Including The Important Stuff Like Steel, And Either Decides To Pull The Plug, Or Blackmail Us With High Prices, We Are In Deep Doo.

Without Wanting To Sound Silly Or Alarmist, F_S Thinks It Is Beyond Just "Tinkering" At This Point, It Has Become Almost A Matter Of National Security.

The Congressional Budget Office (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=4458&type=0&sequence=0) and the Cato Institute (http://www.freetrade.org/faqs/faqs.html#seven), both considered "conservative", disagree with you.

"Free trade is a boon to the US manufacturing base, which is alive and thriving according to statistical evidence. Access to a greater supply of raw materials at lower prices enables US manufacturers to reduce costs and become competitive in markets around the world. Without such access, US manufacturers would have difficulty pricing competitively in markets with relatively lower incomes and currency values. The presence of foreign-produced finished manufactures in the US compels domestic industries to be innovative and efficient, both of which are keys to profitability and longevity. Statistically, in constant 1996 dollars, manufacturing's share of GDP has held steady at slightly over 17 percent between 1977 (a period of relatively high tariffs) and 1998. Between 1992 and 1999, when the overall economy grew by 29 percent, the Federal Reserve's index of manufacturing output increased by 42 percent!"

It seems the American auto industry is just not doing their part in keeping up with a global economy and consumer demand for more energy efficient vehicles.

[Fat_Sunny]

The Congressional Budget Office (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=4458&type=0&sequence=0) and the Cato Institute (http://www.freetrade.org/faqs/faqs.html#seven), both considered "conservative", disagree with you.

"Free trade is a boon to the US manufacturing base, which is alive and thriving according to statistical evidence. Access to a greater supply of raw materials at lower prices enables US manufacturers to reduce costs and become competitive in markets around the world. Without such access, US manufacturers would have difficulty pricing competitively in markets with relatively lower incomes and currency values. The presence of foreign-produced finished manufactures in the US compels domestic industries to be innovative and efficient, both of which are keys to profitability and longevity. Statistically, in constant 1996 dollars, manufacturing's share of GDP has held steady at slightly over 17 percent between 1977 (a period of relatively high tariffs) and 1998. Between 1992 and 1999, when the overall economy grew by 29 percent, the Federal Reserve's index of manufacturing output increased by 42 percent!"

It seems the American auto industry is just not doing their part in keeping up with a global economy and consumer demand for more energy efficient vehicles.

That Data Is 8 Years Old !!

Even If The Percentages Are Still The Same In 2007 (Which F_S Highly Doubts), The "New" American Manufacturing Is Far Different From The "Old" American Manufacturing.

How Much Steel Is Produced In The US?

[Crispy123]

That Data Is 8 Years Old !!

Even If The Percentages Are Still The Same In 2007 (Which F_S Highly Doubts), The "New" American Manufacturing Is Far Different From The "Old" American Manufacturing.

How Much Steel Is Produced In The US?

Upon further investigation it looks as though Chinese steel may be a threat to the US economy. This is being addressed by challenges to the World Trade Organization by us (US). The Chinese government has been playing this game for several years though and if they don't cut the shit they will be shut out of free trade deals and will ultimately shoot themselves in the foot.

from steel.org (http://www.steel.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=2007&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=20340)
With regard to the China Chamber of Commerce of Metals, Minerals & Chemicals (CCCMC) claim that exports account for only 10 percent of total Chinese steel production, this completely overlooks the fact that this represents an enormous figure, given the sheer size of China's steel industry. China exported 52.1 million MT of steel products last year. That volume exceeds half of all steel production in the United States, which was 98.5 million MT in 2006. Moreover, during the first quarter of 2007, the increase in China's net steel exports accounted for nearly 58 percent of the year-on-year increase in China's crude steel production. This shows that increases in Chinese production are being driven to a large extent by higher export volumes.

While the CCCMC may assert that China’s steel industry “presents no threat to industries in other countries,” significant injury has already occurred. U.S. imports of steel from China rose from 2.3 million net tons (NT) in 2005 to 5.4 million NT in 2006 -- an increase of 133 percent in a single year. These heavily subsidized imports took sales from domestic producers even with respect to high-end items like corrosion-resistant steel and welded and seamless tubular products. In terms of adverse effects downstream, the damage and job losses took place in many product lines, from fence posts to auto parts. In January 2006, the Chicago Federal Reserve attributed the large job losses in the U.S. auto parts industry in recent years directly to the dramatic increase in auto parts imports from China.

[Yerdaddy]

The Congressional Budget Office (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=4458&type=0&sequence=0) and the Cato Institute (http://www.freetrade.org/faqs/faqs.html#seven), both considered "conservative", disagree with you.

"Free trade is a boon to the US manufacturing base, which is alive and thriving according to statistical evidence. Access to a greater supply of raw materials at lower prices enables US manufacturers to reduce costs and become competitive in markets around the world. Without such access, US manufacturers would have difficulty pricing competitively in markets with relatively lower incomes and currency values. The presence of foreign-produced finished manufactures in the US compels domestic industries to be innovative and efficient, both of which are keys to profitability and longevity. Statistically, in constant 1996 dollars, manufacturing's share of GDP has held steady at slightly over 17 percent between 1977 (a period of relatively high tariffs) and 1998. Between 1992 and 1999, when the overall economy grew by 29 percent, the Federal Reserve's index of manufacturing output increased by 42 percent!"

It seems the American auto industry is just not doing their part in keeping up with a global economy and consumer demand for more energy efficient vehicles.

Awesome use of sourcing. Forget that fat doesn't ever respect (or provide) evidence in any debate, I'm hugely impressed.