I thought Rachel Maddow was kidding when she reported this......

[scottinnj]

Iraq FM: Turkey Massing 140,000 Troops (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8Q97U100&show_article=1)


Does anyone know if this is true? If so, this is a big problem, because Turkey is a NATO ally to us in this region. It would suck if something happened between us and Turkey.
We have to ask, are the Kurds as important to us as Turkey is? The Kurds have been the least of our worries in Iraq, and they seem to be the most thankful for our presence there. (http://links.streamingwizard.com/1stuk/theotheriraq/ustvspot1m.asx)

And if we side with Turkey, or at least let Turkey do what it wants (we only have 200 troops up there who can't/won't do much) this would be the second time (and the second Bush) to betray the Kurds who have been very helpful to us.

But if we stop Turkey either diplomatically, or heaven forbid, militarily, we will have pissed off a NATO ally who is a great help to us fighting terrorists.

THIS FUCKING WAR BLOWS!

[jetdog]

yeah, just like they said it would happen. I think there was a skirmish several weeks ago. please forgive the lack of references, don't have the stamina to write a report on this. The army war college warned of this, as did any knowledgable person, before we even went into Iraq. It was remarkably quiet (as far as I know) for years, then a few weeks ago, I can;t remember what sparked it, but I think it was an aggresive action by the Iraqi Kurds, the Turks went at it with them. It's so infuriating, how things are playing out exactly as the people who warned against invading Iraq, or against invading Iraq in the manor in which the Bush administration chose to do (completely ingonoring the advice of the Army war college, trying to do it in the cheapest way possible, while making the most money possible for his collaborators, short changing the kids sent over there with inadequate amor and inadequate numbers, extending the war weary's tours, etc.), said they would. Well what the fuck. Good luck everybody. i wish I had the media outlet to get up and say, " I told you so, you war mongering pieces of shit. Urp...I mean they told you so...you know...the fuckers who do all the stuff...the fucking generals!....yes the generals...no not the genreals in place now, the original generals, the one who stood up to the administration....what? of course you've never heard of them... they were fired as soon as they dissente........transmission ends 07-10-07

[Yerdaddy]

Pentagon and State say no signs on satellite images. It's just the Iraqi Foreign Minister who is saying this and he's a Kurd from Nothern Iraq. Iraqi government officials say crazy shit all the time for their own political purposes and everything they say has to be verified, in my experience.

I wouldn't worry about Turkey just yet. They're still in wait-and-see mode but the break-up of Iraq could quite possibly cause them to invade to prevent any kind of Kurdistan existing because it would give a political and military boost to Turkey's Kurdish independence movement. It's a problem that's been looming and the Bush administration has ignored from the beginning. Probably the only group negotiating between our Kurdish and Turkish allies are the Special Forces commanders who have had a long close relationship with both parties - the Kurds since 1991 and Turkey since WWII.

If they do come to blows we'll stay out of it.

It would also be a hell of a fight - along the lines of the Soviets vs Afghan Mujihadeen of the 1980s. The Kurdish peshmerga are hearty tough mountain fighters, who are also well trained and armed by US Special Forces and CIA. Turkey's got top of the line US military equipment and experience fighting the Turkish PKK and their terrorist tactics. Problem is their tactics have always relied heavily on brutalizing Kurdish civilians and that would require them to go into Northern Iraq and fight on Kurdish territory. They'd probably lose political support back home sooner or later and limp home in disgrace. But it would be fucking brutal and it would pull a large portion of the best trained, and most loyal and professional soldiers from the Iraqi Security Forces that the country obviously needs if they're going to hold it together. I also don't see any reason the U.S. couldn't have negotiated a deal to keep the two apart in case Iraq falls apart, other than the fact that the White House lives in a constant state of denial and literally ignores any problem it doesn't want to believe exists.

We'll know the shit's going to hit the fan - Iraq is on the verge of collapse - when Kurdish troops start to be pulled out of the Iraqi army and both Kurdish and Turkish troops begin to build up along the border. That's when Bush will need to get a bigger "Mission Accomplished" banner and land a pod fighter on a UFO to maintain his world view.

A few other points:

-Turkey's politics and penchant for political posturing bullshit has to be factored in as well. Turkey's staunchly secular ruling military elite have tolerated the moderately Islamist party running the government since they won the elections a few years ago. But if they decide there's some political advantage in invading Kurdish Iraq in pursuit of the PKK they'll do it. Or they'll threaten it, which they've already been doing, and that could be why the Iraqi FM is talking crazy now.

-An invasion by Turkey would probably shit-can Turkey's hopes of joining the EU, an incentive that has sparked alot of significant reform on the part of the ruling elite and including Turkey's treatment of the Kurds. But there have been setbacks and delays with thier EU candidacy and if they think they're being strung along, or if they decide the nationalist ferver of telling the EU to fuck off would be better then they might invade anyway.

-The Iraqi Kurds and the Turkish Kurds don't get along. Hell, the two main Iraqi Kurdish groups don't get along and were constantly on the fence between warring and on the verge of warring throughout the 90s. At least one of the Iraqi Kurdish groups has a history of aiding the Turks against the PKK when it was taking refuge in Northern Iraq. It's taking refuge there now and there is a slight possibility that they could negotiate to allow the Turks to fight the PKK while maintaining a cease fire with Iraqi Kurds. I'd say it's unlikely because the Kurdish dream of a soveriegn Kurdistan being closer than ever before may have stirred the nationalist sentiments to defend Kurdish soil as though it was already soveriegn.

-As usual, it's complicated. It's also very volatile.

[scottinnj]

Could this be the Iraqi FM's attempt at a smoke and mirrors campaign to dissuade American attention away from the upcoming report (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070710/D8Q9EA400.html) saying the Iraqi government has basically done nothing to live up to their agreements that would keep American troops in Iraq?

Edit: Maybe this guy is related to the Information Minister Saddam had while we invaded-"nothing to see here, those are American tanks, but we have them on the run!"

Thanks Yerdaddy, keep me posted.

[Doctor Z]

Iraq FM: Turkey Massing 140,000 Troops (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8Q97U100&show_article=1)

Now I'm starvin'...

[Yerdaddy]

Could this be the Iraqi FM's attempt at a smoke and mirrors campaign to dissuade American attention away from the upcoming report (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070710/D8Q9EA400.html) saying the Iraqi government has basically done nothing to live up to their agreements that would keep American troops in Iraq?

Edit: Maybe this guy is related to the Information Minister Saddam had while we invaded-"nothing to see here, those are American tanks, but we have them on the run!"

Thanks Yerdaddy, keep me posted.

No. They've been in a constant state of failure for two years now. And it's the Kurdish politicians with the least incentive to defend the government because they're the ones who'd be most happy to split up and start a solo career. Turkey would be their Yoko Ono, but there's no other signs that the Kurds are going to split just yet.

I'd agree with this analysis that the FM is trying to draw international attention to the fact that Turkey has been threatening an incursion of late and they've been operating inside Iraqi territory for a long time. He's probably just trying to forestall something like that.

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

"God will roast their stomachs in hell at the hands of Iraqis." (http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/#quotes)

Now I'm starvin!

[PapaBear]

"The Scottish will roast their stomachs" (http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/#quotes)
Now I'm starvin!
I'm stahvin' too!!!

http://chileheadrush.homestead.com/files/KevInvadesUK/Haggis.jpeg

[A.J.]

Iraq FM: Turkey Massing 140,000 Troops (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8Q97U100&show_article=1)


And Greece breathes a sigh of relief.

[Midkiff]

pull the troops out of Iraq NOW dammit

[Crispy123]

I think Turkey is just reading the writing on the wall. It is being widely reported that the Iraqi government has not reached any of the milestones we (US) have put out there. Turkey has long wanted the northern part of Iraq. If the US demands a withdrawal of a large portion of our troops, then it would be good for us if an ally took over in the region.

I don't know myself how brutal it would be for the Kurds if Turkey took over N Iraq. Like Yerdaddy said they badly want to be part of the EU but have been shut out so far. They have been a strong US ally in a region that has very few. They might be doing us a favor if they were to take that part of Iraq under their control.

However, nothing so far has been going to plan so for Turkey to suddenly turn heel and make a grab for land and brutalize the people living there is not out of the question. It is all conjecture at this point but Im for anything that keeps somewhat of a lid on the MidEast boilerplate but allows us the chance to pull a major portion of our troops out and get them a chance to regroup and recover back in the States.

[DolaMight]

If the troops really are there it's just a power move to keep the Turkish Kurds from thinking there's any solidarity with the Iraqi Kurds. Turkey is a strong US ally and would never cross the border. Just internal politics over there. The Iraqi Kurds have an image in Turkey as having it better.

Frux I'm hungry, anybody got any Turkish delights back there?
http://www.tidespoint.com/food/big_turk.jpg

[Yerdaddy]

I think Turkey is just reading the writing on the wall. It is being widely reported that the Iraqi government has not reached any of the milestones we (US) have put out there. Turkey has long wanted the northern part of Iraq. If the US demands a withdrawal of a large portion of our troops, then it would be good for us if an ally took over in the region.

I don't know myself how brutal it would be for the Kurds if Turkey took over N Iraq. Like Yerdaddy said they badly want to be part of the EU but have been shut out so far. They have been a strong US ally in a region that has very few. They might be doing us a favor if they were to take that part of Iraq under their control.

However, nothing so far has been going to plan so for Turkey to suddenly turn heel and make a grab for land and brutalize the people living there is not out of the question. It is all conjecture at this point but Im for anything that keeps somewhat of a lid on the MidEast boilerplate but allows us the chance to pull a major portion of our troops out and get them a chance to regroup and recover back in the States.

If you want to see the Kurds, Shiia and Sunni Iraqis unite have Turkey try to take and hold Kirkuk. It would be fucking Old Testament wrath and gore. Remember, Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world and the oil fields in Northern Iraq are their richest. All of Iraq would go apeshit and slaughter the Turks if they thought they were trying to take all that oil.

No. Turkey doesn't want territory - not at that cost - they just don't want a Kurdistan to exist under any circumstances, and more immediately they want to get in there and destroy the PKK which is taking refuge there. But Turkey can't in any way act as any kind of peacekeeping force in Iraq. They can only make shit worse by going in.

[Yerdaddy]

If the troops really are there it's just a power move to keep the Turkish Kurds from thinking there's any solidarity with the Iraqi Kurds. Turkey is a strong US ally and would never cross the border. Just internal politics over there. The Iraqi Kurds have an image in Turkey as having it better.

Frux I'm hungry, anybody got any Turkish delights back there?
http://www.tidespoint.com/food/big_turk.jpg

Turkey alread has troops over the border. They've been there for a while. I think it's referenced in the article I linked before. Globalsecurity.org will have more specifics on that. And Turkey's not such a strong ally of the States anymore. They asked for shitloads of money to let us invade from Turkey in 2003, (their population would have been furious), and we didn't want to pay it so we said "no" and they said "well, fuck you then" and we haven't mended the wounds since then. It's not a bad relationship, it's just not what it used to be. Turkey is probably closer to Europe than us now.

Also, Iraq's Kurds have been living large since the No-Fly Zone was set up in 91 - huge economic growth and democratic governance. They're stoked not to be Turkish and certainly not to be Turkish Kurds. And they'll fight to the last man not to give up what they've got.

[empulse]

Turkey's problem is the Kurds. They absolutely will NOT stand for a Kurdish ruled area in Northern Iraq. They have said for sometime that they will Invade northern Iraq and wipe the Kurds off the map if they claim autonomy. The story about Turkey wanting money is only part of the whole.

In 03' when we began the Iraq invasion we wanted Fly-Over rights from turkey for the purpose of bombing and refueling. In exchange Turkey wanted to slice up northern Iraq, control of the northern oil fields, and a promise that there would be no autonomous state for the Kurds in that region, I think after we said no, they then tried to say well give us cash and we'll look away and not do anything.... for now. But Turkey has been massing troops for a couple weeks now, and it looks as though a military conflict is eminent. And you can bet your as we will look the other way (the MSM will not report it either..) as the Kurds are slaughtered. Sad really when you check the list of reasons for attacking Iraq that neo-cons love to site.. at the top of the list is "He (Saddam) slaughtered the Kurds, by the 10's of 1000's. Oh the Humanity!!" Where are they now? Oh wait Turkey is a christian nation. I guess its ok then.

[ralphbxny]

I'm stahvin' too!!!

http://chileheadrush.homestead.com/files/KevInvadesUK/Haggis.jpeg

Thats it!!! Turkey for dinner!!

[Yerdaddy]

Turkey's problem is the Kurds. They absolutely will NOT stand for a Kurdish ruled area in Northern Iraq. They have said for sometime that they will Invade northern Iraq and wipe the Kurds off the map if they claim autonomy. The story about Turkey wanting money is only part of the whole.

In 03' when we began the Iraq invasion we wanted Fly-Over rights from turkey for the purpose of bombing and refueling. In exchange Turkey wanted to slice up northern Iraq, control of the northern oil fields, and a promise that there would be no autonomous state for the Kurds in that region, I think after we said no, they then tried to say well give us cash and we'll look away and not do anything.... for now. But Turkey has been massing troops for a couple weeks now, and it looks as though a military conflict is eminent. And you can bet your as we will look the other way (the MSM will not report it either..) as the Kurds are slaughtered. Sad really when you check the list of reasons for attacking Iraq that neo-cons love to site.. at the top of the list is "He (Saddam) slaughtered the Kurds, by the 10's of 1000's. Oh the Humanity!!" Where are they now? Oh wait Turkey is a christian nation. I guess its ok then.

Where do you see evidence that they are actually massing troops on the border? All I see is the FM saying one thing and the Pentagon and State saying "nope".

You do know that Turkey is a Muslim country, not Christian? I can't tell if that's part of the joke.

I don't see Turkey trying to take territory. They're don't want an all-out war with all Iraqis. If the Kurds declared independence then maybe they'd only have to fight the Kurds. But that depends on what kind of oil-revenue sharing system has been set up, and there have already been preliminary agreements drawn up that spread it out pretty evenly. If that's the case then all of Iraq would go against the Turks and they're not ready for that. They don't want to suffer what either Iran or Iraq suffered in their long war of the 1980s.

If you know something I don't then give me a link. I'd be curious to see it.