film that attacks the mormons

[thepaulo]

september dawn.....
i saw this a few weeks ago.....
i think they delayed the release date untill august 24......
goes into great detail about a massacre that a group of mormans committed......the film is not to good but the fact that it was made makes me wonder who financed it with the mitt romney campaign.

[Judge Smails]

I don't know anything about the movie, but since the buddays were talking about Big Love today, anyone interested in learning about Mormon history from it's founding to present should pick up this book:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0385509510.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[led37zep]

Best Mormon film of all time Paul O
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h176/RachelR82/Orgasmo.jpg

[MobCounty]

Interesting.. I'll have to take a peek, even if it's just to cringe.

Paul, can you start a thread with documentaries that you suggest we view?

I loved Paradise Lost, Brothers Keeper and Devils playground. It would be great to hear your opinion about other documentaries through the years.

[thepaulo]

i'll try mob.....
one that could be hunted down now is werner herzog's little dieter needs to fly....which is the source material for the new christian bale/steve zahn film rescue dawn

[envirogator]

Judge-

Awesome book. Felt like I was almost reading a work of fiction; all of it was so foreign to me. Really a disturbing fringe-element that you never hear about.

[Crispy123]

http://www.impawards.com/1999/posters/slc_punk.jpg

[Midkiff]

It's about time somebody called these nutjobs to task, just as all other nutjob religions are.

[envirogator]

The area I'm from has a large Mormon population. The ones that I have interacted with through business, etc., have appeared outwardly fine but extremely close-knit, almost secretive. I asked one that I worked with if my observations were correct and he indicated that due to real or perceived persecution they are taught not let anyone into their "circle". It always appeared 'cult-like' to me...

[LethalInfection]

Seems that anytime there is something about a faith or religion that people disagree with, or more commonly just don't understand, they decide that it's wrong and it's okay to hate or dislike someone because they have differing beliefs, so its alright to call them 'nutjobs'.

I am no longer a practicing Mormon, nice spelling by PaulO by the way, so I don't feel the need to defend myself in my beliefs, but I really get annoyed when everyone wants to pile on to some bullshit and start talking out their ass about something they don't know the truth about. I spent 2 years as a Mormon missionary riding the bike with my white shirt and the name tag, and I spent alot of time learning more about not only the LDS religion, but all religions and I can point out faults and flaws in all of them. All I care is that before you all go spouting off about something you don't know, you should check the facts.

Here's a few tips:
1. Mormons are NOT into plural marriage. It was outlawed. It had a purpose, and I would gladly explain it to anyone who really wanted to understand it.
2. Mormons have never committed any 'massacre' in the name of God or any other reason.
3. They CAN drink tea, and coke, but based on the health benefits can anyone say what nutritional value these drinks have in the first place?

I guess it's just easier for people to be intolerant of beliefs different than your own rather than try to learn about them and figure out why they believe them. Just because someone writes a book or makes a movie about something, that doesn't make it true. I also agree with led37zep, and if you like South Park you will love 'Orgazmo'.

[envirogator]

Lethal- My impression of the book is that it was well balanced and well researched. My comments were related to my experience and interactions that I have had. Hardly bashing...just observations.

[Crispy123]

Seems that anytime there is something about a faith or religion that people disagree with, or more commonly just don't understand, they decide that it's wrong and it's okay to hate or dislike someone because they have differing beliefs, so its alright to call them 'nutjobs'.


True, but people who think American Indians are Jews that came to the new World on a boat, that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri, and a new New Testament on Golden Plates that "no one ever saw" was brought to Joseph Smith by Jesus does come dangerously close to my definition of a nutjob.

[LethalInfection]

Lethal- My impression of the book is that it was well balanced and well researched. My comments were related to my experience and interactions that I have had. Hardly bashing...just observations.

I understand, and I can't say anything about the book because I personally haven't read it, but I can tell you what is speculation and just general rumor about something I have lived in for 30 years. And I certainly didn't single you out as "bashing", but to describe your own interactions with people, and then call them 'cult-like' certainly carries a negative angle and again a false tag line is perpetuated by your own experiences. Then again I have to ask how many cults you have been around to make that comparison. If that were the case, couldn't someone takes certain aspects of any religion and label them as a cult?

[Furtherman]

If that were the case, couldn't someone takes certain aspects of any religion and label them as a cult?

Yes, you can. And many people do and fortunately, more and more people do.

[LethalInfection]

True, but people who think American Indians are Jews that came to the new World on a boat, that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri, and a new New Testament on Golden Plates that "no one ever saw" was brought to Joseph Smith by Jesus does come dangerously close to my definition of a nutjob.

You know what, if someone believed what YOU just said as fact, yeah, they are nutjobs. But since nothing you said was with any context or facts to support the way YOU put it how about this... Adam & Eve and a talking snake, millions of animals riding on a boat, a dude parting an entire ocean so people can walk through it, a magical box that causes people to instantly melt, etc... Sounds like most of the Old Testament is bullshit. Here's a better question, since you KNOW the Garden wasn't in Missouri, where was it? And there were more than a dozen people who saw the plates WHO WERENT EVEN MORMON. How about you explain how the american indians, Incas, Myans, all inhabited this continent BEFORE Columbus ever showed up. They magically appeared too? And if they existed, which we can prove they did, don't you think they may have kept a writing of happenings and religious events that occurred thousands of years ago? Hmmm... seems outrageous right?

[sailor]

I don't know anything about the movie, but since the buddays were talking about Big Love today, anyone interested in learning about Mormon history from it's founding to present should pick up this book:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0385509510.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

my wife enjoyed the book thoroughly.

[joethebartender]

deleted

[thepaulo]

i clearly don't even try to spellcheck when i post....
i'm just saying the movie purports the massacre is true (it happened on 9/11 no less).....
and check the imdb board for a healthy discussion back and forth

[sailor]

i clearly don't even try to spellcheck when i post....
i'm just saying the movie purports the massacre is true (it happened on 9/11 no less).....
and check the imdb board for a healthy discussion back and forth

mountain meadows massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre)

[LethalInfection]

Paul, I'm just glad you are alright at this point, and I was only breakin' your balls a little on the spelling. I am one of those people that lives by the rule of 'Say whatever you want about me, just get my name right' kinda deals. I will be looking into this film, but I must say that a religion is an easy target to point out flaws in, but to say that they were behind a massacre seems slightly over the top... well, except for extremist Muslims I guess, take care.

[Midkiff]

Um... I would just like to point out the very long-accepted fact that American Indians, as well as all indigenous homo sapiens in the Americas, got here by way of migration via Asia across the Bering Strait. They then split off in various directions and continued, through population isolation and normal genetic mutation, changing to have their own particular characteristics. This happened thousands of years before Columbus.

It wasn't the one extreme, "magic," and it certainly wasn't the other extreme, some Jewish tribe on a boat.

Even to this day, some states refuse to teach natural selection or that the Earth is as old as it actually is, so I really can't put much credence in some drunk hayseed from two centuries ago. No offense.

I have to say, in my original post, I did not intend to single out Mormonism for bashing... I meant that all religions are BS. I'm equal opportunity.

[mr.smokepants]

september dawn.....
i saw this a few weeks ago.....
i think they delayed the release date untill august 24......
goes into great detail about a massacre that a group of mormans committed......the film is not to good but the fact that it was made makes me wonder who financed it with the mitt romney campaign.

I blame the blacks

[sailor]

It wasn't the one extreme, "magic," and it certainly wasn't the other extreme, some Jewish tribe on a boat.

was it this extreme?

http://www.heavyharmonies.com/bandpics/extreme.jpg

[mr.smokepants]

Seems that anytime there is something about a faith or religion that people disagree with, or more commonly just don't understand, they decide that it's wrong and it's okay to hate or dislike someone because they have differing beliefs, so its alright to call them 'nutjobs'.

I am no longer a practicing Mormon, nice spelling by PaulO by the way, so I don't feel the need to defend myself in my beliefs, but I really get annoyed when everyone wants to pile on to some bullshit and start talking out their ass about something they don't know the truth about. I spent 2 years as a Mormon missionary riding the bike with my white shirt and the name tag, and I spent alot of time learning more about not only the LDS religion, but all religions and I can point out faults and flaws in all of them. All I care is that before you all go spouting off about something you don't know, you should check the facts.


Here's a few tips:
1. Mormons are NOT into plural marriage. It was outlawed. It had a purpose, and I would gladly explain it to anyone who really wanted to understand it.
2. Mormons have never committed any 'massacre' in the name of God or any other reason.
3. They CAN drink tea, and coke, but based on the health benefits can anyone say what nutritional value these drinks have in the first place?

I guess it's just easier for people to be intolerant of beliefs different than your own rather than try to learn about them and figure out why they believe them. Just because someone writes a book or makes a movie about something, that doesn't make it true. I also agree with led37zep, and if you like South Park you will love 'Orgazmo'.


You said "2. Mormons have never committed any 'massacre' in the name of God or any other reason."

Yes they did. You can pretend that it didn't happen to make yourself feel better, but history has the massacre documented pretty well. Hey....did Hitler really kill all those Jewish people? Just because someone wrote a book about it doesn't make it true, right?

I contend that there is no such thing as God and that Smith was a roustabout and fortune seeker. I feel sorry for people that are brainwashed into believing this utter nonsense. I can't blame them though, it's done to them at birth. I consider it almost child abuse. My parents convinced me that Catholicism was real....only because they were taught by their parents, and so on. Thankfully the cycle stopped with me, and my kids can choose for themselves when they are adults whether or not they want to believe in organized religion. I myself believe in one thing.....and that's Mighty Horse.

[LethalInfection]

You said "2. Mormons have never committed any 'massacre' in the name of God or any other reason."

Yes they did. You can pretend that it didn't happen to make yourself feel better, but history has the massacre documented pretty well. Hey....did Hitler really kill all those Jewish people? Just because someone wrote a book about it doesn't make it true, right?


Here is one of my posts on IMDB, and I did quite a bit of research first...
"It seems that some people are misinterpreting the facts, and by saying this was an act of the Church is not accurate... Let me put this a different way. This was a militia of men made up of SOME Mormons, and based on the geographical region it would happen that there was a large presence of practicing Mormons, and without denying this act didn't take place, it can hardly be blamed on the Mormon faith because SOME (not all) of the men were Mormon. How is that any different than saying, "Hey, I saw a group of young black men rob a lady and then sell some crack so all black people are like this and they are all to blame for this behavior." - This was a different time, and a different world they lived in back then and no one can truly understand what happened at MMM, but if the majority of the population happened to belong to a certain faith or religion, their actions cannot be blamed on the religion as a whole." - As far as Mighty Horse goes, I attend my daily services Monday thru Friday from Noon to 3 PM, and I sing in the 'Whatley Posse' Choir my friend. MonKeee Hoouuuse!

[Crispy123]

Here's a better question, since you KNOW the Garden wasn't in Missouri, where was it?

I didn't say I knew where it was. I personally don't even know if what was talked about in Genesis happened exclusively on this planet or at all. What I said was IMO people who say they do know where the Garded of Eden is are nutjobs.

And there were more than a dozen people who saw the plates WHO WERENT EVEN MORMON.

Where is this context that you speak of??? In my research I found that only Joseph Smith ever saw them, for everyone else it was a second hand recollection of Smith's.

How about you explain how the american indians, Incas, Myans, all inhabited this continent BEFORE Columbus ever showed up. They magically appeared too?

I like Midkiff's explanation.

And if they existed, which we can prove they did, don't you think they may have kept a writing of happenings and religious events that occurred thousands of years ago? Hmmm... seems outrageous right?

Have you ever heard of a little guy from the outback of Hollywood called Mel Gibson???
The movie Apocolypto answers these questions much better than some nutjobs from Salt Lake ever could.

[scottinnj]

I have to say, in my original post, I did not intend to single out Mormonism for bashing... I meant that all religions are BS. I'm equal opportunity.


We know this, you are such an atheist that we see your post of "All religions are bad" in every thread with a hint of religion in it.

I'm not trying to bash you, but could you bring something else to the table besides "all religions are bad."
Atheists haven't been a bunch of lovey dovey bunch of individuals either....a few million (maybe a little bit more then that, Jim!) died with the blessings of their atheist leaders too, in the last century alone.


As far as this "massacre" is, it sounded pretty bad in Wikipedia. I had never heard of this before. I'll have to ask someone else about it too.

[PapaBear]

I just heard about that massacre about a week ago on the History Channel. They had a whole show about massacres. Pretty nasty stuff.

[mikeyboy]

I have Mormon friends. I have Catholic friends. I have atheist friends. I can exist perfectly well with all. What I don't abide by is demonizing or characterizing a group based on the words or actions of a few. It's cheap, easy and largely inaccurate.

With that out of the way, I am soooooooooo starting a cult.

[scottinnj]

With that out of the way, I am soooooooooo starting a cult.



Will there be girls? And Beer?

[mikeyboy]

Will there be girls? And Beer?

Well, der.

[PapaBear]

With that out of the way, I am soooooooooo starting a cult.

Will there be girls? And Beer?

Well, der.
Don't fall for it, Scott. Those cults always lure you in with the titties and beer. Once they have you, you find out the cult leader gets it all.

[mikeyboy]

Don't fall for it, Scott. Those cults always lure you in with the titties and beer. Once they have you, you find out the cult leader gets it all.

I'm willing to share the beer.

[Judge Smails]

Don't fall for it, Scott. Those cults always lure you in with the titties and beer. Once they have you, you find out the cult leader gets it all.

Tell me about it.

http://www.hatmusic.co.uk/thumbnails_life_photos/people/images/Blue%20Nun%20.jpg

[Yerdaddy]

Here is one of my posts on IMDB, and I did quite a bit of research first...
"It seems that some people are misinterpreting the facts, and by saying this was an act of the Church is not accurate... Let me put this a different way. This was a militia of men made up of SOME Mormons, and based on the geographical region it would happen that there was a large presence of practicing Mormons, and without denying this act didn't take place, it can hardly be blamed on the Mormon faith because SOME (not all) of the men were Mormon. How is that any different than saying, "Hey, I saw a group of young black men rob a lady and then sell some crack so all black people are like this and they are all to blame for this behavior." - This was a different time, and a different world they lived in back then and no one can truly understand what happened at MMM, but if the majority of the population happened to belong to a certain faith or religion, their actions cannot be blamed on the religion as a whole." - As far as Mighty Horse goes, I attend my daily services Monday thru Friday from Noon to 3 PM, and I sing in the 'Whatley Posse' Choir my friend. MonKeee Hoouuuse!

So it happened to have been carried out by a militia that happened to have some Mormons in it because there were alot of Mormons living there?

The Mormons established Utah as an independent country and they were the de facto law of the land. They knew they couldn't survive a war if the United States decided to force them to live by US law so they compromised their soveriegnty and placated the US government brilliantly, but they were isolated, the US was restrained by the Civil War, and the Church ruled that territory with an iron fist. Brigham Young's word was law. He was, for all intents and purposes the King of Utah. The Mormons were also deeply distrustful and intolerant of "Americans" who settled in Utah, (few of them did), or even passed through, because they themselves were brutally opposed by the mainstream American Protestand culture at the time. To say that he tolerated these individual militias roaming around the territory acting on their own accord is to conveniently ignore the political and cultural power situation at the time, (and largely in place in Utah today). I haven't gotten too deep into the massacre yet, but I just read a detailed account of the massacre and the experiences of Mark Twain passing through the terrirtory afterwards in "Roughing It" and I'm totally up for this debate.

I'm also from a giant Morman family and and I had never heard of the massacre until I read it in a standard history textbook. I'd also bet that, until these new books and movies started bringing this subject up again, the majority of Mormons have never heard of it either. The official church position has always been: "Wasn't us. Fuck off!" and that's the long version. I've been stalked by missionaries to about 20 different places I've lived across America and when I started asking them if they knew about the massacre not a one had ever heard of it - they only know that Mormons could never in a million years been capable of hurting another person much less something like that, thank my heavenly stars!

Yeah, I'm thrilled we got a Mormon revisionist troll on here to defend the church's position and image on here. This should be fun. But seriously LethalInfection, you seem to be carrying water in alot of different forums and you're cutting and pasting and jumbling your arguments up on this one. We're capable of holding our own on political subjects, so if you want to carry water here you should devote the attention we deserve or you're just going to get the cat pictures and ridicule.

[Yerdaddy]

I understand, and I can't say anything about the book because I personally haven't read it, but I can tell you what is speculation and just general rumor about something I have lived in for 30 years. And I certainly didn't single you out as "bashing", but to describe your own interactions with people, and then call them 'cult-like' certainly carries a negative angle and again a false tag line is perpetuated by your own experiences. Then again I have to ask how many cults you have been around to make that comparison. If that were the case, couldn't someone takes certain aspects of any religion and label them as a cult?

First of all, calling a religion a cult and saying it's "cult-like" are two different things. Especially when basing it on his personal experiences. Again, I'm a product of that Mormon culture and I gotta say this: you're culty. You're definitely a little culty.

I'd love to get into this more when I'm settled somewhere as well. I find my Mormon stories a big hit with people from less religious countries than ours. Like Yemen.

[Yerdaddy]

Paul, I'm just glad you are alright at this point, and I was only breakin' your balls a little on the spelling. I am one of those people that lives by the rule of 'Say whatever you want about me, just get my name right' kinda deals. I will be looking into this film, but I must say that a religion is an easy target to point out flaws in, but to say that they were behind a massacre seems slightly over the top... well, except for extremist Muslims I guess, take care.

Let me ask you this: in the statements I quoted above, you're defending the Mormon church on the basis of the church shouldn't be judged by the actions of a few of its members. So why bring up Muslims all of a sudden, like they can be judged for the actions of their extremists?

This is another argument I'd love to have with you as well. (I love to argue - I can't deny it.) What I've seen coming from my family - especially the most active in the LDS - they're actively pursuing a campaign of demagoguery and fear-mongering against Islam. Maybe it's got something to do with they're two Judeo-Christian spin-offs with competing post-Jesus prophet mythologies, (and I gotta say, the Quran is much more realistic and even readable than the BOM), but I'd like to know just how much the church is involved in demonizing Islam for it's own purposes. I guess I'll start by seeing how much this post sets you off. (No pun intended.)

[sailor]

i thought he left the church, himself.

[SatCam]

goes into great detail about a massacre that a group of mormans committed

mental massacre?

[thepaulo]

actually the thing i'm most interested in is why this film was made now.....it is clearly not a hollywood product but a privately financed film that would be something you would see on the hallmark channel.....it combines a heavy religious undercurrent about the "normal" Christians being treated almost as heathens by the Mormoms......with a syrupy romeo and juliet story.......but with large helpings of depraved violence....
..... it was clearly made with the clear intention of blackening the image of the Mormoms at the very moment they have a viable Presidential candidate

[mr.smokepants]

" - As far as Mighty Horse goes, I attend my daily services Monday thru Friday from Noon to 3 PM, and I sing in the 'Whatley Posse' Choir my friend. MonKeee Hoouuuse!


See? This is how two people, who disagree on a subject, can come together as human beings and agree, that Monkey Hooouuuse rocks the D-Sippers! Have a great day....take care.

Smoke/

[Crispy123]

actually the thing i'm most interested in is why this film was made now.....it is clearly not a hollywood product but a privately financed film that would be something you would see on the hallmark channel.....it combines a heavy religious undercurrent about the "normal" Christians being treated almost as heathens by the Mormoms......with a syrupy romeo and juliet story.......but with large helpings of depraved violence....
..... it was clearly made with the clear intention of blackening the image of the Mormoms at the very moment they have a viable Presidential candidate

I would have to say its along the same lines as what Yerdaddy said about his Mormon family members bashing Islam. Religion is a powerful tool and it seems like people are using it in our day and age to incite violence and hatred. It has happened at other times in the past and I can only hope we start to see this kind of sh*t for what it is before it's too late.

[mr.smokepants]

with a syrupy romeo and juliet story.

I'm fucking starvin'

[mr.smokepants]

I would have to say its along the same lines as what Yerdaddy said about his Mormon family members bashing Islam. Religion is a powerful tool and it seems like people are using it in our day and age to incite violence and hatred. It has happened at other times in the past and I can only hope we start to see this kind of sh*t for what it is before it's too late.

Ignore the pun, but Amen brother. I think religion has been used as a tool for thousands of years. The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition (insert Monty Python joke here PaulO), all that silliness. You're right though PaulO....the timing of this movie does smell foul considering Romney's run and his LDS affiliation. Even though I abhor the Mormon faith (or any organized faith based on hatred and intolerance) targeting Mitt and using his Mormonism is a time honored technique. Remember John F. Kennedy? A vote for him would be a vote for the Pope!

[sailor]

actually the thing i'm most interested in is why this film was made now.....it is clearly not a hollywood product but a privately financed film that would be something you would see on the hallmark channel.....it combines a heavy religious undercurrent about the "normal" Christians being treated almost as heathens by the Mormoms......with a syrupy romeo and juliet story.......but with large helpings of depraved violence....
..... it was clearly made with the clear intention of blackening the image of the Mormoms at the very moment they have a viable Presidential candidate

how long ago would something like this have to have been planned?

[mr.smokepants]

I'd love to get into this more when I'm settled somewhere as well. I find my Mormon stories a big hit with people from less religious countries than ours. Like Yemen.

Or Canada! I think we have 7 Mormons here...and for some reason they always seem to show up at my door while I'm trying to spank it to 70's porn. Nothing turns them away faster than the sounds of John Holmes railing an 18 year old gal from San Fransisco.

[geechie]

I don't know anything about the movie, but since the buddays were talking about Big Love today, anyone interested in learning about Mormon history from it's founding to present should pick up this book:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0385509510.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Just finished reading that yesterday. Great book.

[LethalInfection]

So it happened to have been carried out by a militia that happened to have some Mormons in it because there were alot of Mormons living there?

- Glad you understood.

The Mormons established Utah as an independent country and they were the de facto law of the land. They knew they couldn't survive a war if the United States decided to force them to live by US law so they compromised their soveriegnty and placated the US government brilliantly, but they were isolated, the US was restrained by the Civil War, and the Church ruled that territory with an iron fist. Brigham Young's word was law. He was, for all intents and purposes the King of Utah. The Mormons were also deeply distrustful and intolerant of "Americans" who settled in Utah, (few of them did), or even passed through, because they themselves were brutally opposed by the mainstream American Protestand culture at the time. To say that he tolerated these individual militias roaming around the territory acting on their own accord is to conveniently ignore the political and cultural power situation at the time, (and largely in place in Utah today). I haven't gotten too deep into the massacre yet, but I just read a detailed account of the massacre and the experiences of Mark Twain passing through the terrirtory afterwards in "Roughing It" and I'm totally up for this debate.

- All Opinion. Not based on a factual perspective, not to mention how dare those Mormons who were being persecuted and murdered in their own country for believing differently then defend themselves from people who must have sounded much like you back then.

I'm also from a giant Morman family and and I had never heard of the massacre until I read it in a standard history textbook. I'd also bet that, until these new books and movies started bringing this subject up again, the majority of Mormons have never heard of it either. The official church position has always been: "Wasn't us. Fuck off!" and that's the long version. I've been stalked by missionaries to about 20 different places I've lived across America and when I started asking them if they knew about the massacre not a one had ever heard of it - they only know that Mormons could never in a million years been capable of hurting another person much less something like that, thank my heavenly stars!

- You were in a Mormon family? So your name was on the church rosters, no one was stalking you stupid! Don't give yourself so much credit that anyone would follow you around because YOU must be so damn important.

Yeah, I'm thrilled we got a Mormon revisionist troll on here to defend the church's position and image on here. This should be fun. But seriously LethalInfection, you seem to be carrying water in alot of different forums and you're cutting and pasting and jumbling your arguments up on this one. We're capable of holding our own on political subjects, so if you want to carry water here you should devote the attention we deserve or you're just going to get the cat pictures and ridicule.

- "Mormon revisionist troll" ??? What tha fuck are you talking about. You are driving all over the road more than I am, and I haven't put up a debate or defense other than for those people who come on here with only speculation and to perpetuate stereotypes based on long held FALSE interpretations of a religion they NEVER spend the time to educate themselves about before going out publicly and repeating negative bullshit.

Here's my closing comment, I think I will go ahead and join Mikeyboy's cult because I was actually KICKED OUT of the LDS church because a few years ago, in an act of self-defense, I reacted in a way that caused someone else to lose their life, so I guess from where I sit I can't consider myself any better than those militia men or soldiers who were following orders, or defending their own rights and as a result there were many casualties...

[Furtherman]

I contend that there is no such thing as God and that Smith was a roustabout and fortune seeker. I feel sorry for people that are brainwashed into believing this utter nonsense. I can't blame them though, it's done to them at birth. I consider it almost child abuse. My parents convinced me that Catholicism was real....only because they were taught by their parents, and so on. Thankfully the cycle stopped with me, and my kids can choose for themselves when they are adults whether or not they want to believe in organized religion. I myself believe in one thing.....and that's Mighty Horse.

Quoted for truth.

[badorties]

Interesting.. I'll have to take a peek, even if it's just to cringe.

Paul, can you start a thread with documentaries that you suggest we view?

I loved Paradise Lost, Brothers Keeper and Devils playground. It would be great to hear your opinion about other documentaries through the years.


i cannot recommend enough the PBS documentary on the mormons, incredibly well-balanced and insanely insightful

i loved this documentary ... and as a staunchly secular agnostic, i found the mormon faith fascinating -- their concept of family and the afterlife is remarkable ... the concept 'saving' those in the Holocaust was disturbing, but still interesting

[EliSnow]

With that out of the way, I am soooooooooo starting a cult.

Wait, I thought that's what this board was.

[cougarjake13]

Wait, I thought that's what this board was.

it is but we dont speak of it

[scottinnj]

I have Mormon friends. I have Catholic friends. I have atheist friends. I can exist perfectly well with all. What I don't abide by is demonizing or characterizing a group based on the words or actions of a few. It's cheap, easy and largely inaccurate.

With that out of the way, I am soooooooooo starting a cult.

Wait, I thought that's what this board was.

it is but we dont speak of it



Brother and Sister posters of the RonFez.net board, it is time for our communion...........may we all be blessed as we drink the holy kool aid!http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o217/themarshal/kool-aid-man2.jpg


OH YEAH!

[Yerdaddy]

Originally Posted by Yerdaddy
So it happened to have been carried out by a militia that happened to have some Mormons in it because there were alot of Mormons living there?

- Glad you understood.

The Mormons established Utah as an independent country and they were the de facto law of the land. They knew they couldn't survive a war if the United States decided to force them to live by US law so they compromised their soveriegnty and placated the US government brilliantly, but they were isolated, the US was restrained by the Civil War, and the Church ruled that territory with an iron fist. Brigham Young's word was law. He was, for all intents and purposes the King of Utah. The Mormons were also deeply distrustful and intolerant of "Americans" who settled in Utah, (few of them did), or even passed through, because they themselves were brutally opposed by the mainstream American Protestand culture at the time. To say that he tolerated these individual militias roaming around the territory acting on their own accord is to conveniently ignore the political and cultural power situation at the time, (and largely in place in Utah today). I haven't gotten too deep into the massacre yet, but I just read a detailed account of the massacre and the experiences of Mark Twain passing through the terrirtory afterwards in "Roughing It" and I'm totally up for this debate.

- All Opinion. Not based on a factual perspective, not to mention how dare those Mormons who were being persecuted and murdered in their own country for believing differently then defend themselves from people who must have sounded much like you back then.

I'm also from a giant Morman family and and I had never heard of the massacre until I read it in a standard history textbook. I'd also bet that, until these new books and movies started bringing this subject up again, the majority of Mormons have never heard of it either. The official church position has always been: "Wasn't us. Fuck off!" and that's the long version. I've been stalked by missionaries to about 20 different places I've lived across America and when I started asking them if they knew about the massacre not a one had ever heard of it - they only know that Mormons could never in a million years been capable of hurting another person much less something like that, thank my heavenly stars!

- You were in a Mormon family? So your name was on the church rosters, no one was stalking you stupid! Don't give yourself so much credit that anyone would follow you around because YOU must be so damn important.

Yeah, I'm thrilled we got a Mormon revisionist troll on here to defend the church's position and image on here. This should be fun. But seriously LethalInfection, you seem to be carrying water in alot of different forums and you're cutting and pasting and jumbling your arguments up on this one. We're capable of holding our own on political subjects, so if you want to carry water here you should devote the attention we deserve or you're just going to get the cat pictures and ridicule.

- "Mormon revisionist troll" ??? What tha fuck are you talking about. You are driving all over the road more than I am, and I haven't put up a debate or defense other than for those people who come on here with only speculation and to perpetuate stereotypes based on long held FALSE interpretations of a religion they NEVER spend the time to educate themselves about before going out publicly and repeating negative bullshit.

Translation: "Wasn't us. Fuck off!

Not only is this the official LDS position on the massacre in a nutshell - deny all arguments outright and categorically, ignoring any evidence however strong, and attack the messenger. (Was Rumsfeld Mormon?) That's why five years ago hardly any Mormons had heard of this or any other Mormon wrongdoing - because it's a culty religion - becuase it's a strongly heirarchical religion that concentrates not only power but information in the hands of a few men in Utah.

He pretty much reacted like I expected. The Mormons have retained that persecuted defensiveness 150 years beyond any persecution because the "Elders" found it a great way to maintain their personal power over the flock. Then they heavily emphasized the evangelism of Mormonism (missionaries) and the mandatory tithing (10% of your income goes to the church or you get a shitty basement apartment with basic cable in heaven - or is it more that your personal heaven planet will be farther away from the Jesus Planet? Their heaven is hysterical. Somebody's got to look that up and post it). So it's now the fourth largest religion in America with the vast majority handing over 10% of their dough. That's why they've got such giant churches everywhere. It's also why you never met a poor Mormon. They'll throw him out. The whole church like a giant white-collar sweatshop. Concepts reinfocing the virtues of prosperity and affluence are riddled in the sermons and the "testimonies" and they encourage doing business only with other Mormons. With that money they've also become a major player in government with Congressmen and Senators representing the church from states all over the midwest and not just Utah. They pretty much are the local governments where they establish a "temple".

It's a fascinating religion. I can see why so many people have read that book.

Here's my closing comment, I think I will go ahead and join Mikeyboy's cult because I was actually KICKED OUT of the LDS church because a few years ago, in an act of self-defense, I reacted in a way that caused someone else to lose their life,

They do love to kick people out don't they? Helps keep the rest scared and in line I guess. My father never told me what he did to get kicked out, but they left him with a shitload of guilt and insecurity too. What kind of religion calls itself Christian but keeps the motto: "Jesus forgives. We don't."? That should be a clue as to what kind of religion you're remaining loyal to.

so I guess from where I sit I can't consider myself any better than those militia men or soldiers who were following orders, or defending their own rights and as a result there were many casualties...

They were following orders. Confession accepted. As for their rights? Bullshit. Once you control your own territory and can more than defend your population and are no longer being persecuted then you become responsible for your actions. There were thousands of settlers (some as persecuted as the Mormons) crossing the Utah territory to get to a better life in Nevada and California at the time. Mormons murdered 120 of them (largest mass murder on US soil until the Oklahoma City bombing) out of hate and greed. They were very possibly acting on orders from the church and they certainly were protected from justice by the church. And by continuing to deny it the church continues to obstruct justice. And I think it does more to hurt the culture of Mormonism today than anyone else. That hiding from guilt helps keep the division between Mormons and the rest of the country. And it's your own fault. Mormons are far from persecuted today. Stop pretending to be.

[Crispy123]

http://desertpastor.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/worship_3_1.jpg

[helterskeletor]

I don't know anything about the movie, but since the buddays were talking about Big Love today, anyone interested in learning about Mormon history from it's founding to present should pick up this book:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0385509510.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

This book is damn interesting. It also has some good stuff about US government attacks on Mormons in the early days. Some pretty brutal stuff there too.

All I know is I want a bunch of teenage wives, and I know Jesus wouldn't have it any other way.

[thepaulo]

Mitt Romney got 32% of Iowa straw poll...the top three GOP contenders did very poorly, partly due to not partcipating....

[thepaulo]

The film opened this week and I still haven't figured out who financed this....

[Chigworthy]

I think R&F mentioned this , but the wackiness of Mormon beliefs seems intolerably silly to people who believe in the wackiness in the bible, and it is probably because Mormon wackiness supposedly occurred very recently, while the biblical wackiness occurred thousands of years ago.

[boonanas]

This movie was terrible.

[Yerdaddy]

This movie was terrible.

This post was short.

[AJDELAWARE]

Orgasmo has some great anti-mormonism in it.

[Yerdaddy]

Orgasmo has some great anti-mormonism in it.

Jesus and I love you.

[AJDELAWARE]

Jesus and I love you.

Jesus and I love you too.

You haven't seen Orgasmo? Have you been living under a rock.
No I live in Utah.
Oh....I'm sorry.

[Ay Kay Forty2]

I used to work at a blockbuster and i've always pondered what this movie would be like. I hope that guy is using that bow & arrow to kill a cave troll or a wizard.

http://www.ldsvideo.com/gx/BookOfMormonMovie.jpg

[thepaulo]

that darn Romney's ready to bring the Big Love....
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i3rGlyYydDABDfjCwNHaECW-5WDgD8T9JVB00

[thepaulo]

In Bill Maher's new film Religilous, The Mormons are neck and neck with the Scientologists for the most ridiculous religion.

[yojimbo7248]

In Bill Maher's new film Religilous, The Mormons are neck and neck with the Scientologists for the most ridiculous religion.

I can't wait to see this. I am an atheist so I think all religious mythology equally ridiculous. Mormons do, however, have some flair in their bullshit. I love it when someone claims Satan created scientific evidence to fool us into believing in evolution or God destroyed artifacts to build our faith. I had a Mormon girlfriend years ago (didn't last long). She talked about the tribes of people who lived in North America who you can read about in the Book of Mormon. I said, cool, the Book of Mormon is about the Sioux, Cherokee, Crow, etc? No, it is about these people besides the indians who lived here. God destroyed all of the evidence of their existence to test our faith. The only way we know about them is from the book that Joseph Smith read with golden glasses, both of which were also destroyed by God for faith-testing purposes. That God is one hell of an asshole. All of this bullshit is tough enough to believe as it is but then he goes and destroys evidence to make it even more difficult to avoid hell? What a prick.