US Government at debt limit

[epo]

Today the administration has asked Congress to raise the US limit to borrow money. Of course the problem for them is we have a legal limit as set by congress of $9 trillion in total federal debt. Of course we currently owe our creditors $8.965 billion.

Link to story here. (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/treasury-asks-congress-raise-us/story.aspx?guid=%7B894F7525-21A2-479C-A1EA-A95CC21A11A3%7D)

The truth being told...I never want a republican to tell me about the democrats and our "fiscal responsibility" and/or lack thereof.

[badmonkey]

There's plenty of fiscally responsible Republicans. George W. Bush is not only not one of them, he hasn't even pretended to be one for years now.

Badmonkey

[DolaMight]

Today the administration has asked Congress to raise the US limit to borrow money. Of course the problem for them is we have a legal limit as set by congress of $9 trillion in total federal debt. Of course we currently owe our creditors $8.965 billion.

Link to story here. (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/treasury-asks-congress-raise-us/story.aspx?guid=%7B894F7525-21A2-479C-A1EA-A95CC21A11A3%7D)

The truth being told...I never want a republican to tell me about the democrats and our "fiscal responsibility" and/or lack thereof.

Bush said he's good for it. Good enough for me.

Why isn't that enough and why won't you pinko's cut him some slack. He's good for it.

[epo]

There's plenty of fiscally responsible Republicans. George W. Bush is not only not one of them, he hasn't even pretended to be one for years now.

Badmonkey

Why weren't they showing their heads in Congress the last 6 years on the House Appropriations Committee?

[Midkiff]

Fuck Bush.

[Crispy123]

Fuck Bush.

What else would you do with it???

[SatCam]

Sounds like America needs BlowJob man

[spoon]

Why weren't they showing their heads in Congress the last 6 years on the House Appropriations Committee?

Here here! And isn't this around the fifth time under W they've had to make this move? Any fact finders out there willing to do the leg work? I'm bushed! ahahahahahahaha!

[scottinnj]

Fuck Bush.


Can't argue with that one Midkiff. Short, sweet to the point as always.

[scottinnj]

Here here! And isn't this around the fifth time under W they've had to make this move? Any fact finders out there willing to do the leg work? I'm bushed! ahahahahahahaha!

Well, this is a bipartisan issue. For who to blame of course. There are plenty of fiscally responsible Republicans and Democrats-we did have a balanced budget with a Democrat in the White House and a Republican controlled Congress.

But this current spending is out of control. I'm hoping the majority of Democrats in charge of the spending keep their counterparts under control. It's unfortunate that the term "earmarks" Nancy Pelosi promised to get rid of still seems to breathe.

[A.J.]

Here here! And isn't this around the fifth time under W they've had to make this move? Any fact finders out there willing to do the leg work? I'm bushed! ahahahahahahaha!

Yerdaddy'll get around to it.

[JPMNICK]

i keep reading articles about how the population of america has had a negative savings rate for the past year for the 1st time since the depression. I wonder where people get the idea to over leverage themselves?

[PapaBear]

i keep reading articles about how the population of america has had a negative savings rate for the past year for the 1st time since the depression. I wonder where people get the idea to over leverage themselves?
You should take a drive around my neighborhood. When I was growing up, my subdivision was almost completely surrounded by huge pastures. Now it's all huge houses and SUV's. They can't make maps fast enough for all the new roads.

When I deliver to these people, it's so easy to see that they have purchased WAY beyond their means. I see "For Sale" signs on homes that are less than two years old. I see people, who go digging through their expensive cars, for enough change to pay for a $25 food order.

The worst part is, most of these giant houses are VERY cheaply built. These things are going to fall apart in 10 years.

[Yerdaddy]

Yerdaddy'll get around to it.

If someone can tell me the point of all the political bullshit I've posted in the past then I'll do it. I wish I knew how to quit you America!

[Snacks]

There's plenty of fiscally responsible Republicans. George W. Bush is not only not one of them, he hasn't even pretended to be one for years now.

Badmonkey

I love all the republicans NOW saying he isnt fiscally responsible and that there are plenty republicans who are. Well its not just the president. The house could vote down some of his spending plans but they dont. The reps have controlled the house and the senate for 8+ years and just follow their leader without questioning. Thats why we are in the situation we are in, in Iraq and finacialy here. And please dont tell me that our economy is going well because the unemployment rate is low. People are making less money and people have taken lower level jobs just to work and pay the bills, while the gap between rich and mid class and poor has widened. The home market is falling, interest rates are going up. Gas is killing most people and we are paying for a lost cause of a war. The mess this president has created will be felt for the next 10 or more years.


Why weren't they showing their heads in Congress the last 6 years on the House Appropriations Committee?

Here here! And isn't this around the fifth time under W they've had to make this move? Any fact finders out there willing to do the leg work? I'm bushed! ahahahahahahaha!

here here here !!!

[spoon]

Here, there, anywhere bush fucks everything up.

[furie]

the question remains, will congress knuckle under again?

[Recyclerz]

Here here! And isn't this around the fifth time under W they've had to make this move? Any fact finders out there willing to do the leg work? I'm bushed! ahahahahahahaha!

Since Yerdaddy probably has his hands (& other body parts) full with various tropical diseases, here are the links from the commie symps at NPR

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5282521

and the Concord Coalition

http://www.concordcoalition.org/issues/feddebt/debt-facts.html

(For the clicking-impaired, it's the fourth time in five years)

Admittedly, this is an arbitrary and artificial limit which doesn't mean much in the real world. The real limits are going to be when the Chinese, Japanese and Saudis decide they don't want to keep their holdings in $ anymore. That will be fun. It will be super extra fun if that coincides with the time that the Social Security Administration stops contributing its extra cash into T-bills and has to start drawing money out to pay Grandma and Grandpa Boomer (somewhere between 2012 and 2017).

My advice to you youngsters is to get all your fun in now because you're going to be learning to say "Yes sir, I'll have the car washed and polished, right away, sir" in Mandarin soon enough.

[buzzard]

sounds like it's time for a Clinton to get back in the White House.we may not enjoy some of their morals..however they do know how to manage debt.

[keithy_19]

Sounds like America needs BlowJob man

America wouldn't last a month. Unless Bill Clinton was presdient. BAH ZING!

[DarkHippie]

the question remains, will congress knuckle under again?

Yes.

If they don't then the republican machine will bust out the 'you don't support the troops/ you're helping the terrorists' song and dance. And it will work.

"9/11 9/11 9/11 . . . blah blah Osama . . . 9/11 9/11 . . ."

[Yerdaddy]

Osama

Who?

[PapaBear]

Osama

Who?
You know. The guy running for President.

[waltermitty]

It Just worries me when the Stock Market is at an all time high and the dollar is worth an all time low....

I'm not an economist by any means, but I know that can't be a good thing....

[Yerdaddy]

You know. The guy running for President.

Oh yeah! You mean we haven't killed that guy yet?

[PapaBear]

Oh yeah! You mean we haven't killed that guy yet?
He's hiding with Senators. You know... They all look alike.

[Yerdaddy]

He's hiding with Senators. You know... They all look alike.

But isn't that what Daisycutters are for? To kill em all and let God sort em out?

[patsopinion]

Sounds like America needs BlowJob man

or start giving them

pats math
(3 billion people-300million americans)/2=1,489,000,000 non american men in the world
1.5 non american men/150 million american women=10 bjs per american woman
9 billion dollar deficit/1.5 billion non american men=6 dollars per blowjob(a more than reasonable asking price even for poorer countries' male citizens to pay for a bj)

alright ladies... get started

[Yerdaddy]

or start giving them

pats math
(3 billion people-300million americans)/2=1,489,000,000 non american men in the world
1.5 non american men/150 million american women=10 bjs per american woman
9 billion dollar deficit/1.5 billion non american men=6 dollars per blowjob(a more than reasonable asking price even for poorer countries' male citizens to pay for a bj)

alright ladies... get started

6 billion people on earth

[patsopinion]

6 billion people on earth
*DOPE*
.... not after next Thursday?

[bigtim666]

during the late 70's early 80's japan owned alot of us debt, they owned Rockerfeller Plaza and we bought it back at a discount so lets not loose our heads

[CruelCircus]

the question remains, will congress knuckle under again?

They have no choice.
If the debt ceiling doesn't get raised the US will essentially default on its loans.

You want to see some worldwide financial chaos?
Turn T-Bills into junk bonds.

[high fly]

There's plenty of fiscally responsible Republicans. George W. Bush is not only not one of them, he hasn't even pretended to be one for years now.

Badmonkey

There have always been plenty who talked the talk, but few who walked the walk.

Ronald Reagan was considered to be a fiscal conservative when he ran in 1980, promising to balance the budget in two years.
In two years he set a record for largest deficit in history in 1983 and his proposed budget was larger than the one proposed by the Democratic Congress.
Indeed if you look at the top ten largest deficits since 1946, 9 out of ten of them were signed into law with the signiture of endorsement of Republican presidents. Same with when you look at % of GDP.

It's just a big fat lie.

Just like the big fat lie that Republicans are for a less intrusive federal government.

[Furtherman]

This thread from 2007 is a great read.


So what has changed?


Debt Ceiling Crisis: Like Y2K With Assholes Instead of Computers (http://www.borowitzreport.com/2011/07/27/debt-ceiling-crisis-like-y2k-with-assholes-instead-of-computers/)

[sailor]

This thread from 2007 is a great read.


So what has changed?


Debt Ceiling Crisis: Like Y2K With Assholes Instead of Computers (http://www.borowitzreport.com/2011/07/27/debt-ceiling-crisis-like-y2k-with-assholes-instead-of-computers/)

80% of these people no longer post here?

[Furtherman]

80% of these people no longer post here?

:laugh:

Truth. Too bad. They could see that they were right... or wrong.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

pee on my bonds

[A.J.]

Osama

Oh yeah! You mean we haven't killed that guy yet?

We got him!

[Jujubees2]

pee on my bonds

http://www.webeengone.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Barry-Bonds.jpg

[Rhah]

Great necro... I was wondering why there wasn't a debt limit thread in the Political Forum... apparently it was just stuck back in 2007.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If we default, China can annex California

[Zorro]

The current refunding of Greece's profligate government was presented in the mainstream media as another story of a government operating beyond its means. While this is true, the bigger, economy-retarding story behind the story is why Greece was saved.


http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2011/07/26/a_global_economy_held_hostage_by_lehman_99148.html

It's a long tedious article (Well for some), but really, really interesting article about government debt and "too big too fail"

[sailor]

Great necro... I was wondering why there wasn't a debt limit thread in the Political Forum... apparently it was just stuck back in 2007.

Cue up the Ani D...

[brettmojo]

I'm so ready to get all Road Warrior up in this bitch! It'll be me and Anthony Cumia kicking ass and stealing fuel.

[spoon]

I'm so ready to get all Road Warrior up in this bitch! It'll be me and Anthony Cumia kicking ass and stealing fuel.

You'd be shot in the back of the head running away in the opening credits.

[cougarjake13]

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2011/07/26/a_global_economy_held_hostage_by_lehman_99148.html

It's a long tedious article (Well for some), but really, really interesting article about government debt and "too big too fail"




whats the cliff notes version ??

[spoon]

whats the cliff notes version ??

you must fit that "for some" category...along with me for now

[WRESTLINGFAN]

If we default lets sell the entire Southwest and California to Mexico. Hawaii can be sold to either China or Japan whoever bids higher British Columbia can annex Washington State we can raise a ton of revenue that way.

[spoon]

swwwwiiiing and a miss

[Dudeman]

If we default lets sell the entire Southwest and California to Mexico. Hawaii can be sold to either China or Japan whoever bids higher British Columbia can annex Washington State we can raise a ton of revenue that way.

does that include silicon valley (google, apple, hewlett packard, etc), the biotech industry (genentech, amgen, etc), caltech, stanford, and berkeley?

great way to stimulate the economy- get rid of the smart, innovative people.

the geniuses texas' 22nd district and kentucky have done so much more to contribute to the country.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

does that include silicon valley (google, apple, hewlett packard, etc), the biotech industry (genentech, amgen, etc), caltech, stanford, and berkeley?

great way to stimulate the economy- get rid of the smart, innovative people.

the geniuses texas' 22nd district and kentucky have done so much more to contribute to the country.

Might as well get top dollar while you can as eventually CA will slide into the ocean.

I guess you forgot about the rest of the Golden state as its a fiscal nightmare

Yea, Californias 35th District rep. and the 2 Yenta senators have contributed much also

[Recyclerz]

Don't write off WF's crazy-ass ideas too quickly.

The Republiicans are always saying that the country should be run like a business. OK, I propose that we spin off Texas after loading it up with a shitload of the national debt. That's how most of the industry leading John Galts "add value" in the private sector. It's a win-win.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Texas is part of the deal to sell the SW to Mexico. However all energy revenue still comes to the US as payback for babysitting their citizens

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Maybe congress can crank out I phones/Pads


http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/07/29/apple.cash.government/index.html?hpt=hp_t2%27%20rel=%27nofollow

[epo]

Watching this circus in the House of Representatives tells me two things:

1. These Tea Party Republicans don't know shit about the economy.
2. President Obama should just raise the debt ceiling via the 14th Amendment and send all of these jerkoffs in Congress home to face their constituents.

[Syd]

Watching this circus in the House of Representatives tells me two things:

1. These Tea Party Republicans don't know shit about the economy.
2. President Obama should just raise the debt ceiling via the 14th Amendment and send all of these jerkoffs in Congress home to raise their constituents.

1. They know about the economy, the aim of the Tea Party has always been to reduce standard of living to depress wages and benefits. The easiest way is to seek austerity measures so the Kochs and others were able to buy up a lot of seats in the House which are pretty cheap.

2. That'll be a massive shitshow. Obama will certainly be impeached for trying it but it looks to be vaguely constitutional enough. Downside is if it gets to that, it might have long term ramifications of people wanting more return from their bonds. On the other hand, it'll make for a good showing. Congress has been awful, especially the GOP. They're not interested in actual compromise, just forcing Democrats to kill off entitlements and never, ever raise taxes. Most of the non-ideologue Republicans at this point are pointing out the absurdly low taxes as well as the absurdly high spending. When Grover Norquist is pointing out that the Bush tax cuts should end, you know the GOP has really shit the bed.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I wouldnt be surprised if he did. He started a 3rd war without consent of congress

[Syd]

Do you want a dictator?


Obama can not raise the debt ceiling on his own.

He can -- the 14th is fairly clear about it. It was specifically written so Democrats from the south couldn't prevent payments to union soldiers. It prevented "spite" from being a reason to ignore debts, which is the main reason being displayed. The real reason, to kill off the middle class, makes it an imperative that the debt ceiling be raised.

Not that anyone has a chance to make a case about it but if it somehow were to become one (and made it that far) the SCOTUS will uphold it because they're mainly federalists.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

He can -- the 14th is fairly clear about it. It was specifically written so Democrats from the south couldn't prevent payments to union soldiers. It prevented "spite" from being a reason to ignore debts, which is the main reason being displayed. The real reason, to kill off the middle class, makes it an imperative that the debt ceiling be raised.

Not that anyone has a chance to make a case about it but if it somehow were to become one (and made it that far) the SCOTUS will uphold it because they're mainly federalists.

All instances involving revenue, budgets must originate in the house including debts incurred as referenced in the 14th

[Syd]

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Pretty clearly states that not raising the debt ceiling is questioning the validity of the public debt. Considering the debt ceiling was a fixture of early 20th century finance and was only recently resurrected, it isn't a very valid concern to prevent Obama from raising the debt ceiling.

Given the ramifications -- global capitalism is built entirely upon US debt being always paid, I think it's worthy use of it rather than having a depression just because all the seats the Kochs bought are voting to prevent the debt ceiling from being raised.

[Pitdoc]

Watching this circus in the House of Representatives tells me two things:

1. These Tea Party Republicans don't know shit about the economy.
2. President Obama should just raise the debt ceiling via the 14th Amendment and send all of these jerkoffs in Congress home to face their constituents.

Although Truman used the 14 th Amendment in 52 , he didn't use it to raise a debt ceiling , so we'd be on new ground here. However, the President is given emergency powers , that might give him wriggle room to invoke to just abolish the ceiling (It can be inferred that Congress has been violating the Constitution if they GO OVER a debt ceiling ) . And which Repub DOUCHEBAG is going to take the President to the Supreme Court in order to constitutionally drive the country off a cliff? It might not work forever, but it might buy him more time

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Article I section 8 which is the 2nd enumareted power of congress

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

[Pitdoc]

Article I section 8 which is the 2nd enumareted power of congress

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

Article 4

The full faith & credit of the United States shall not be questioned

[TripleSkeet]

WF I know you cant stand Obama, but I mean it is as obvious to you and other Republicans as it is to the rest of the world that the GOP is just being spiteful and actually hurting the country rather then working out a deal that makes sense, right? You DO see that, right?

Im just curious because Im still baffled how some people Im friends with that make $40,000 a year are bitching that Obama shouldnt be allowed to end the tax cuts for the rich.

[A.J.]

Article I section 8 which is the 2nd enumareted power of congress

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

I thought it was the one that gets you out of the Army.

http://whiskeyfire.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c579653ef011570824fc6970b-800wi

[foodcourtdruide]

WF I know you cant stand Obama, but I mean it is as obvious to you and other Republicans as it is to the rest of the world that the GOP is just being spiteful and actually hurting the country rather then working out a deal that makes sense, right? You DO see that, right?

Im just curious because Im still baffled how some people Im friends with that make $40,000 a year are bitching that Obama shouldnt be allowed to end the tax cuts for the rich.

I agree. I don't see how anyone can look at this situation and see Obama as anything less than a centrist. His initial proposal (for every $1 raised in taxes, $3 in entitlement cuts) was actually pretty incredible and fair. It totally looks like Obama is trying to best resolve the issue and the GOP is trying to best politicize it.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

WF I know you cant stand Obama, but I mean it is as obvious to you and other Republicans as it is to the rest of the world that the GOP is just being spiteful and actually hurting the country rather then working out a deal that makes sense, right? You DO see that, right?

Im just curious because Im still baffled how some people Im friends with that make $40,000 a year are bitching that Obama shouldnt be allowed to end the tax cuts for the rich.

You want to put me in the group of the established GOP like Boehner and others. I have no use for them


I have no problem generating revenue.

200K a year is not rich. If you want to raise Jeters taxes im with you on that.


For the 47% who pay no federal income tax, might as well have them contribute some as well.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Article 4

The full faith & credit of the United States shall not be questioned

You can quote texts but there is a list of powers the President and congress has.

If you want to go that route. Why not have the President authorize a war. Oh wait he already did

[TripleSkeet]

You want to put me in the group of the established GOP like Boehner and others. I have no use for them


I have no problem generating revenue.

200K a year is not rich. If you want to raise Jeters taxes im with you.

I dont know what you do for a living, but I would cut your fucking throat for $200k a year.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I dont know what you do for a living, but I would cut your fucking throat for $200k a year.

200K In Philly is considered rich? Maybe for a single person no kids it might be considered living a bit comfortable, but if youre married 2 kids and a mortgage thats far from living it up


Thats the case anywhere in the NE

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I dont have an issue with the limit being raised. I believe the freshmen teabaggers are overplaying their hand. The dems still control the senate and have the WH. If they were thinking long term get this deal done and look to 2012. I believe Obama is still going to be very vulnerable.

[Dudeman]

Maybe congress can crank out I phones/Pads


http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/07/29/apple.cash.government/index.html?hpt=hp_t2%27%20rel=%27nofollow

sorry, but that's headquatered in northern california

[Syd]

200K a year is not rich. If you want to raise Jeters taxes im with you on that.

The bottom income quintile (households earning $20,453 or less a year) earned 0.5% less on average in 2009 than in 2008.
The 2nd income quintile (households earning $20,454 to $38,550 a year) also earned 0.5% less on average in 2009 than in 2008.
The 3rd income quintile (households earning $38,551 to $61,801 a year) earned 0.8% less on average in 2009 than in 2008.
The 4th income quintile (households earning $61,802 to $100,000 a year) earned 1.0% less on average in 2009 than in 2008.
The top income quintile (households earning more than $100,000 a year) earned 0.3% more on average in 2009 than in 2008.
Within the top quintile, the top 5% (households earning more than $180,000 a year) earned 0.6% more on average in 2009 than in 2008.

95% of the country makes due with less than $200k COMBINED income. $200k/year is easily rich. I don't know what definition you have but for most of America a household averages less than $50k/year. Pretty sure making FOUR TIMES that amount can be considered rich.

Now as to why people who make 40k/year vote Republican it's because they believe in the myth of social mobility which was one of the first things the GOP dismantled during the 80s. Wages started stagnating for the lower 80% of Americans so you're not going to suddenly wake up and be rich tomorrow, nor no matter how hard you work will you ever be rich.

[foodcourtdruide]

95% of the country makes due with less than $200k COMBINED income. $200k/year is easily rich. I don't know what definition you have but for most of America a household averages less than $50k/year. Pretty sure making FOUR TIMES that amount can be considered rich.

Now as to why people who make 40k/year vote Republican it's because they believe in the myth of social mobility which was one of the first things the GOP dismantled during the 80s. Wages started stagnating for the lower 80% of Americans so you're not going to suddenly wake up and be rich tomorrow, nor no matter how hard you work will you ever be rich.

I was thinking the same thing Syd, thanks for researching it. It's funny, you always hear this comment from conservatives, but they never put it into a relative context. Also, I really think a lot of the GOP truly believes that the ultra wealthy will filter money down to the middle class. It's notion that has CONTINUOUSLY been disproved. A prime example is that though the economy is currently sluggish, major corporations are still making high profits. I don't understand how anyone buys into that dog and pony show.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I think people are just looking into salary alone to define rich. Now theres wealth which is different. Someone can make 150K a year but he might have an underwater mortgage, a small 401k balance and credit card debt thats out of control.

Would he be considered rich? Of course those events like high cred balance are of his own makings but hes no considered rich


I think most of the earners making 40K who vote for the GOP are only focused on the pervebrial God Guns and Gays issue

[TripleSkeet]

200K In Philly is considered rich? Maybe for a single person no kids it might be considered living a bit comfortable, but if youre married 2 kids and a mortgage thats far from living it up


Thats the case anywhere in the NE

Im not in Philly, Im right outside in South Jersey. If I make half of that I can pay my mortgage, and all my bills comfortably, and enjoy myself. Thats with a $2300 / month mortgage and 2 kids. Maybe thats because Im good at managing my money but I have alot of bills. If I had $200k I would be able to pay my bills, and have money left over for all kinds of extravagant bullshit. Maybe a boat, or a new Mercedes, or who knows.

Its not the life of a millionaire, but you dont have to be a millionaire to be rich.

And if I was in Philly it would be even easier as you can live in a great neighborhood there for the same money I paid for my house but with about 1/6 the taxes.

[Syd]

I think people are just looking into salary alone to define rich. Now theres wealth which is different. Someone can make 150K a year but he might have an underwater mortgage, a small 401k balance and credit card debt thats out of control.

Would he be considered rich? Of course those events like high cred balance are of his own makings but hes no considered rich


I think most of the earners making 40K who vote for the GOP are only focused on the pervebrial God Guns and Gays issue

So who's fault is it if they live beyond their means? Everyone is fine and dandy with fucking over people who lived beyond their means but only made $60k total in the household but oh woah, that guy making $200k we must bend over backwards to lower our taxes as much as possible to save him! The amount of fucking kowtowing is amazing.

[Pitdoc]

I dont know what you do for a living, but I would cut your fucking throat for $200k a year.

Let's start a bidding war.. I'll do it for 50 bucks

[TripleSkeet]

Let's start a bidding war.. I'll do it for 50 bucks

Ill give you the address you can send the check too when it reaches $100k.

[TripleSkeet]

I think most of the earners making 40K who vote for the GOP are only focused on the pervebrial God Guns and Gays issue

This part you got right though. Dont forget its also alot of people that hate blacks too. The ones that think all Democrats do is give welfare to lazy black people that dont want to work.

[foodcourtdruide]

This part you got right though. Dont forget its also alot of people that hate blacks too. The ones that think all Democrats do is give welfare to lazy black people that dont want to work.

Don't discount how many poor people truly bought into Reagan's notion of trickle down economics. They really think capital is better in the hands of the wealthy, than in the hands of the government. I know, amazing.

[hanso]

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With the debt ceiling deadline looming, NBC news man Brian Williams explains the situation with Jimmy and The Roots.

[CHUCKWAGONCOOK]

I know if my household was in terrible debt...I would cut back on spending...eat rice and beans so to speak.....and put most of my extra income to paying off the debt....one thing I don't think would be a good idea is to open a new credit card account to pay off my other credit debts. That doesn't get me out of debt. That just disperses my debt for a time being.

Then I would steal diamonds and paintings from museums and sell them on the black market.

[spoon]

95% of the country makes due with less than $200k COMBINED income. $200k/year is easily rich. I don't know what definition you have but for most of America a household averages less than $50k/year. Pretty sure making FOUR TIMES that amount can be considered rich.

Now as to why people who make 40k/year vote Republican it's because they believe in the myth of social mobility which was one of the first things the GOP dismantled during the 80s. Wages started stagnating for the lower 80% of Americans so you're not going to suddenly wake up and be rich tomorrow, nor no matter how hard you work will you ever be rich.

I actually agree with WF on the 200k platform, it's not rich. Better off sure, but calling 200k rich is falling in line with going after teachers for making 50-65k a years as being excessive or a drain on the US. It's not rich, it's solid middle-class and not living paycheck to paycheck. More people should actually be around this level for their hard work, but it's the dumbing down of our way of life that has effectively triggered comments such as these. Is it doing ok, sure, but trust me it's NOT rich. Especially in the NYC area where property tax on a condo can easily be over 10k alone. Tack on gas, tolls, insurance, home prices and you're almost back to square one. I'd venture to say 200k is the equivalent to 80k in rural PA or less in Alabama.

[spoon]

I was thinking the same thing Syd, thanks for researching it. It's funny, you always hear this comment from conservatives, but they never put it into a relative context. Also, I really think a lot of the GOP truly believes that the ultra wealthy will filter money down to the middle class. It's notion that has CONTINUOUSLY been disproved. A prime example is that though the economy is currently sluggish, major corporations are still making high profits. I don't understand how anyone buys into that dog and pony show.

This I couldn't agree with more, once you replace "major corporations" with JOB CREATORS. What is wrong with you foody!?

[Dudeman]

I know if my household was in terrible debt...I would cut back on spending...eat rice and beans so to speak.....and put most of my extra income to paying off the debt....one thing I don't think would be a good idea is to open a new credit card account to pay off my other credit debts. That doesn't get me out of debt. That just disperses my debt for a time being.

Then I would steal diamonds and paintings from museums and sell them on the black market.

If we're going to boil this situation down to dumb analogies, then...

I'd ask rich Uncle Winthorp to pitch in a few dollars before cutting Gramma's healthcare or little Billy's schooling.

[Syd]

I know if my household was in terrible debt...I would cut back on spending...eat rice and beans so to speak.....and put most of my extra income to paying off the debt....one thing I don't think would be a good idea is to open a new credit card account to pay off my other credit debts. That doesn't get me out of debt. That just disperses my debt for a time being.

Then I would steal diamonds and paintings from museums and sell them on the black market.

The analogy to this situation is that it's all of a sudden imperative to eat rice and beans so you can pay off a 30 year mortgage instantly. Plus it's ignoring that capitalism is a shell game dependent upon the US creating more debt to be bought. It's ignoring the reality of the situation that the US is precariously close to another steep swing toward a recession due to lack of aggregate demand, all because someone decided America's debt was too great (considering we're in two wars with significant tax cuts, the GDP:debt ratio is still favorable amongst first world countries)

I actually agree with WF on the 200k platform, it's not rich. Better off sure, but calling 200k rich is falling in line with going after teachers for making 50-65k a years as being excessive or a drain on the US. It's not rich, it's solid middle-class and not living paycheck to paycheck. More people should actually be around this level for their hard work, but it's the dumbing down of our way of life that has effectively triggered comments such as these. Is it doing ok, sure, but trust me it's NOT rich. Especially in the NYC area where property tax on a condo can easily be over 10k alone. Tack on gas, tolls, insurance, home prices and you're almost back to square one. I'd venture to say 200k is the equivalent to 80k in rural PA or less in Alabama.

$200k isn't rich? Less than 5% of the population makes that or more. There's 200 million some odd people 18-65 in America, so assuming that none of those people are married to get that $200k household and it's 10 million people making that much. Meaning, the population of NYC all makes that and about 3/4 of Los Angeles makes that and no one else. Meanwhile, 190+ million people get by on less than that. Realistically speaking, it's more like 6-7 million people that are in households making more than $200k. Read this article called "Squeaking by on $300k"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/15/AR2009081502957.html

specifically this:

Steins takes a breath. Life in this $2.5 million house was built on the premise of two incomes, not the income of a divorced mother of three in a tanked economy. Her property taxes are $35,000 a year, the nanny is $40,000 and the gardener is $500 a month.

$46k/year (more than what the vast majority of America makes in a year) spent on a nanny and a fucking gardener? A $2.5mn house? That's not middle class, that's someone who clearly is far the fuck beyond middle class.

$200k is literally what less than 5% of the households in the entire United States makes. It's absolutely rich, otherwise the 95% of the country is so goddamn poor we should roll their taxes back to 0% since obviously they're so far up shit creek on their $50k/yr household salary they'll never be able to survive.

Stop fucking defending people who see you as far below them. They don't give a shit about you unless you're particularly amusing on an episode of Cops or some reality show. You will never work hard enough to make that much nor will you ever win the lotto to get catapulted up there. The reality of the situation is your wages aren't going up, certainly not in this economy, nor will there be significant chances for advancement due to the ever-decreasing standard of living in America. Our Gini coefficient is getting to be worse than some third world countries now and we're heading straight into the shitshow that is austerity which will make it even worse.

Everyone needs to stop kidding themselves that they're going to wake up tomorrow and because of hard work and perseverance they're suddenly going to be rich. That isn't how it works, otherwise 95% of America wouldn't be making less than $200k a household.

[underdog]

200K In Philly is considered rich? Maybe for a single person no kids it might be considered living a bit comfortable, but if youre married 2 kids and a mortgage thats far from living it up


Thats the case anywhere in the NE

I actually agree with WF on the 200k platform, it's not rich. Better off sure, but calling 200k rich is falling in line with going after teachers for making 50-65k a years as being excessive or a drain on the US. It's not rich, it's solid middle-class and not living paycheck to paycheck. More people should actually be around this level for their hard work, but it's the dumbing down of our way of life that has effectively triggered comments such as these. Is it doing ok, sure, but trust me it's NOT rich. Especially in the NYC area where property tax on a condo can easily be over 10k alone. Tack on gas, tolls, insurance, home prices and you're almost back to square one. I'd venture to say 200k is the equivalent to 80k in rural PA or less in Alabama.

Maybe people need to stop thinking buying housing is always the fucking answer and invest their money elsewhere.

[Pitdoc]

I know if my household was in terrible debt...I would cut back on spending...eat rice and beans so to speak.....and put most of my extra income to paying off the debt....one thing I don't think would be a good idea is to open a new credit card account to pay off my other credit debts. That doesn't get me out of debt. That just disperses my debt for a time being.

Then I would steal diamonds and paintings from museums and sell them on the black market.

You forgot the most common thing when your household is in debt. GET ANOTHER FUCKING JOB!!! We don't have Dad coming home at 5 PM to greet Mom who's in an apron cooking dinner. They're BOTH have jobs to make ends meet. Same thing with the country . WE HAVE TO RAISE TAXES. Not even RAISE them, but let them GO BACK TO WHAT THEY WERE IN 2000. This country fought a war where anybody at home ate meat only twice a week & rationed other things to help the war effort . These days the average American has been conditioned to think that a 3% tax hike is cutting his throat. And don't give me that "Raise the taxes for people making $250K only". That doesn't cut it. you only raise that, you save $700 billion over 10 yrs. You let ALL the cuts lapse( as they should) , you raise 4.3 TRILLION over 10 yrs. Add that to the 2-3 billion in cuts they're negotiating now, and THAT'S a balanced plan of cutting & revenues. But you watch next year. Obama will cut some deal with the Repubs to continue them AGAIN .I'm thinking maybe he isn't Mr Cool, but a ballless wonder

[Syd]

Let's talk wealth distribution:

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

Read up on that and then re-think how hard you want to cheer on the people who have vastly more wealth than you and are going to make sure they can hold onto that wealth by fucking you over.

[spoon]

The analogy to this situation is that it's all of a sudden imperative to eat rice and beans so you can pay off a 30 year mortgage instantly. Plus it's ignoring that capitalism is a shell game dependent upon the US creating more debt to be bought. It's ignoring the reality of the situation that the US is precariously close to another steep swing toward a recession due to lack of aggregate demand, all because someone decided America's debt was too great (considering we're in two wars with significant tax cuts, the GDP:debt ratio is still favorable amongst first world countries)



$200k isn't rich? Less than 5% of the population makes that or more. There's 200 million some odd people 18-65 in America, so assuming that none of those people are married to get that $200k household and it's 10 million people making that much. Meaning, the population of NYC all makes that and about 3/4 of Los Angeles makes that and no one else. Meanwhile, 190+ million people get by on less than that. Realistically speaking, it's more like 6-7 million people that are in households making more than $200k. Read this article called "Squeaking by on $300k"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/15/AR2009081502957.html

specifically this:



$46k/year (more than what the vast majority of America makes in a year) spent on a nanny and a fucking gardener? A $2.5mn house? That's not middle class, that's someone who clearly is far the fuck beyond middle class.

$200k is literally what less than 5% of the households in the entire United States makes. It's absolutely rich, otherwise the 95% of the country is so goddamn poor we should roll their taxes back to 0% since obviously they're so far up shit creek on their $50k/yr household salary they'll never be able to survive.

Stop fucking defending people who see you as far below them. They don't give a shit about you unless you're particularly amusing on an episode of Cops or some reality show. You will never work hard enough to make that much nor will you ever win the lotto to get catapulted up there. The reality of the situation is your wages aren't going up, certainly not in this economy, nor will there be significant chances for advancement due to the ever-decreasing standard of living in America. Our Gini coefficient is getting to be worse than some third world countries now and we're heading straight into the shitshow that is austerity which will make it even worse.

Everyone needs to stop kidding themselves that they're going to wake up tomorrow and because of hard work and perseverance they're suddenly going to be rich. That isn't how it works, otherwise 95% of America wouldn't be making less than $200k a household.

Hey Syd, stop being a douche and realize you're out of line. I'm not "fucking defending people who see you as far below them" as you say, bc I'm simply saying it's not rich. I know this for a fact bc I make said money and certainly am NOT RICH. And Udog, who the fuck said buy anything, it's about living comfortably. People who argue based on made up story lines and asshole rhetoric are just that, fucking assholes. I'm sorry if you assume I think I shouldn't pay my share of taxes bc I do. My argument is simple, 200k IS NOT RICH.

Your ridiculous example is not someone who makes 200k, no fucking chance in hell anyone gets a loan on a 2.5 million dollar home at that level, much less have those expenses. I refuse to read the story bc it's complete nonsense. I guess I just worked hard and found a way to make it rich in your book. So much for your theory bc I did exactly what you stated won't happen...even if it ISN'T rich. Now go cry me a river in you Ramen noodles with Udog living in a rental your whole life bc buying a home isn't an investment for people who actually do it to simply raise a family.

Not once did I say wages aren't stagnant, our way of living not getting worse or this is a good thing in any way AT ALL. I'm simply stating people shouldn't go after 200k as rich, it should be more expected in the middle class, especially in the NYC and other metro areas with high costs of living. It's mentalities like this that further sections off the pool and you lose even more people that actually see the whole debate with the same view. Stop setting the bar so fucking low and realize a strong middle class should get a much bigger share of the profits being greedily eaten up in some equity game as G. Gekko-esque game of vanity and ego.

I'll stop kidding myself now based on your completely wrong assumptions and misdirected foolish anger. For fuck's sake. :wallbash:

[spoon]

Let's talk wealth distribution:

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

Read up on that and then re-think how hard you want to cheer on the people who have vastly more wealth than you and are going to make sure they can hold onto that wealth by fucking you over.

Holy shit, who the fuck in cheering on wealthy people!?

[Syd]

Not once did I say wages aren't stagnant, our way of living not getting worse or this is a good thing in any way AT ALL. I'm simply stating people shouldn't go after 200k as rich, it should be more expected in the middle class, especially in the NYC and other metro areas with high costs of living. :

The problem is, as I just addressed earlier, it doesn't add up about your bullshit NYC/metro area cost of living arguments. If it was so vastly expensive to live there, why is the median household making $50k in NYC? Or is your argument all smoke and mirrors, and doesn't account for the fact that the vast majority of America makes due with so much less?

Also, you are defending the hell out of the rich. You don't make $200k/year, either, so stop lying. If you do, I'm bantamweight Olympic boxer because in my dreams that'd be pretty cool, better than making $200k/year as far as fantasies are concerned.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

200K is setting the bar extremely low. How the hell is that considered rich? Does a person making 200k compare to an A list celebrity or Hedge fund manager?


The celebrity and fund mgr can hire an army of tax attorneys and accountants to find every loophole known. Plus they can offshore their money too. Why doesn't John Kerry keep his boat docked in Mass? Why do many celebrities have their home of residence in Idaho, Montana and other tax friendly states. The rich and the wealthy know how to keep most of their money

[Snacks]

200K is setting the bar extremely low. How the hell is that considered rich? Does a person making 200k compare to an A list celebrity or Hedge fund manager?


The celebrity and fund mgr can hire an army of tax attorneys and accountants to find every loophole known. Plus they can offshore their money too. Why doesn't John Kerry keep his boat docked in Mass? Why do many celebrities have their home of residence in Idaho, Montana and other tax friendly states. The rich and the wealthy know how to keep most of their money

200k although might be nice and comfortable if you live with no debt but it sure as hell aint rich especially in nj or ny. if you live in a decent town and have a decent home yes you could be considered rich among the rest of your neighbors but the problem is the more you make the bigger home, better car, better school system you want for your family. another problem is you can lose it all very easily. The movie "The company men" is a great movie that deals with this exact situation. The movie is the best movie but it talks about upper middle class families who make $150+ and how it looks like they are richer then they are but really are just living paycheck top paycheck like the rest of middle class.

[spoon]

The problem is, as I just addressed earlier, it doesn't add up about your bullshit NYC/metro area cost of living arguments. If it was so vastly expensive to live there, why is the median household making $50k in NYC? Or is your argument all smoke and mirrors, and doesn't account for the fact that the vast majority of America makes due with so much less?

Also, you are defending the hell out of the rich. You don't make $200k/year, either, so stop lying. If you do, I'm bantamweight Olympic boxer because in my dreams that'd be pretty cool, better than making $200k/year as far as fantasies are concerned.

Truly you have proven nothing by saying what the median household makes bc it has no bearing on what is rich or not. They are independent of each other, and those living on 50k in NYC are SURELY not living life easily. Fuck, I challenge you to live in any borough, much less close in the NYC area and have shit to spend outside of necessities.

Also, I'm not defending the rich in ANY WAY, SHAPE or FORM. Again, calling 200k middle class isn't defending the rich, it's a refusal to set some artificial salary level so low it's comical. If anything we should strive to get more people there that do actual work, not attacking those currently there fighting on the same side of the wealth distribution argument. Your take is what? I should pay more taxes than someone making 100k, bc I agree on that and your attacks are empty and still misdirected. But the good news is I now must know a bantamweight Olympic boxer, which would be cool if he wasn't being such a douche.

[hanso]

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I'm staying out of our clubhouse. However I'm posting this mainly just to agitate WF.

[underdog]

200k although might be nice and comfortable if you live with no debt but it sure as hell aint rich especially in nj or ny. if you live in a decent town and have a decent home yes you could be considered rich among the rest of your neighbors but the problem is the more you make the bigger home, better car, better school system you want for your family. another problem is you can lose it all very easily. The movie "The company men" is a great movie that deals with this exact situation. The movie is the best movie but it talks about upper middle class families who make $150+ and how it looks like they are richer then they are but really are just living paycheck top paycheck like the rest of middle class.

If you have no children, 200k a year is a fuckload of money, even in NYC. Even with children, you should be fine. If you're struggling, you're doing something wrong.

[Recyclerz]

I agree with Krugman on everything except that a bigger stimulus package in '99 would have gotten us out of this mess by now. He is right that the Tea Party/Republican solutions will make things worse and he's right that Obama had his ass handed to him in this clusterfuck.

:glurps:

[spoon]

If you have no children, 200k a year is a fuckload of money, even in NYC. Even with children, you should be fine. If you're struggling, you're doing something wrong.

Never said I'm struggling either, just that I'm FAR from rich. Although I did golf a county course earlier today and had a fancy beer on course. It was imported all the way from Amsterdam!

[PapaBear]

Never said I'm struggling either, just that I'm FAR from rich. Although I did golf a county course earlier today and had a fancy beer on course. It was imported all the way from Amsterdam!
You have a county course? Even your county is richer than mine! We're lucky just to have a put put course in our city park.

[spoon]

You have a county course? Even your county is richer than mine! We're lucky just to have a put put course in our city park.

I used my winning to pay for the round!

ha!

[underdog]

Never said I'm struggling either, just that I'm FAR from rich. Although I did golf a county course earlier today and had a fancy beer on course. It was imported all the way from Amsterdam!

Someone sure is fancy now.

[Dude!]

Someone sure is fancy now.

yeah, he brags about
making over $200,000/year
and collects gold cuff links

[spoon]

not true, i hate gold

the only thing I even have c link gold wise is the NYC subway token links bc they are simply that color

but yes, I am quite fancy

[Snacks]

If you have no children, 200k a year is a fuckload of money, even in NYC. Even with children, you should be fine. If you're struggling, you're doing something wrong.

I guess it all depends on how you live, where you live and what you drive. I know plenty of people who live paycheck to paycheck and they make $150k plus. Now most have families but they own their own homes nothing crazy, 4 bedroom homes nothing is over the top. Property taxes in NJ are $10-20k a year. Remember if you make $150k a year you are going home with about $90 after taxes and other regular deductions. You then have to pay a mortgage of $2500 a month and takes are at least another $1000 a month. Now you are down to about $50k a year to pay all the rest of your bills and save for your future, your retirement and your kids college. Thats not a lot of money and how anyone thinks it is they are nuts.

[Snacks]

You have a county course? Even your county is richer than mine! We're lucky just to have a put put course in our city park.

In Nj every county has a course actually it seems like most in NJ have 2, 3 or even 4 courses!

[spoon]

In Nj every county has a course actually it seems like most in NJ have 2, 3 or even 4 courses!

I think Hudson is the only county that doesn't have a course actually. I used to live in Weehawken and know this bc I felt cheated!

[A.J.]

not true, i hate gold

Stay gold spoonie boy!

[sailor]

Stay gold spoonie boy!

Greasy spoons will still be greasy spoons.

[Syd]

Now you are down to about $50k a year to pay all the rest of your bills and save for your future, your retirement and your kids college. Thats not a lot of money and how anyone thinks it is they are nuts.

So they're down to the median household income in the area? That's what people make, on average, in NYC. Boo freaking hoo.

[Misteriosa]

So they're down to the median household income in the area? That's what people make, on average, in NYC. Boo freaking hoo.

let me just say that i have a bachelor's degree and i am WAY below that...

perhaps they mean manhattan and not "NYC", because that would need to include the outer boros. :unsure:

[Recyclerz]

Greasy spoons will still be greasy spoons.

Sure let's get together at the Thruway Diner and grab some beers and burgers ...

Oh, wait ... Nevermind.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Sure let's get together at the Thruway Diner and grab some beers and burgers ...

Oh, wait ... Nevermind.

Miss that place.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Do it for Gabby!!!


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/house-approves-debt-ceiling-compromise-gabby-giffords-help-231846319.html

[Syd]

Now just time to see what happens 36% (when you exclude military and entitlement spending) of government spending is culled. Time for another recession!

[TripleSkeet]

I actually agree with WF on the 200k platform, it's not rich. Better off sure, but calling 200k rich is falling in line with going after teachers for making 50-65k a years as being excessive or a drain on the US. It's not rich, it's solid middle-class and not living paycheck to paycheck. More people should actually be around this level for their hard work, but it's the dumbing down of our way of life that has effectively triggered comments such as these. Is it doing ok, sure, but trust me it's NOT rich. Especially in the NYC area where property tax on a condo can easily be over 10k alone. Tack on gas, tolls, insurance, home prices and you're almost back to square one. I'd venture to say 200k is the equivalent to 80k in rural PA or less in Alabama.

NYC is pretty much the only part of the country where making $200k a year isn't rich. I always thought I was middle class, apparently not only am I poor, but 99 percent of the people I know are also poor. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of people I've known throughout the course of my life that made that kind of money legally. If 95 percent of the country doesn't make that kind of money, it's not fucking middle class.

[underdog]

NYC is pretty much the only part of the country where making $200k a year isn't rich. I always thought I was middle class, apparently not only am I poor, but 99 percent of the people I know are also poor. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of people I've known throughout the course of my life that made that kind of money legally. If 95 percent of the country doesn't make that kind of money, it's not fucking middle class.

Even in NYC, if you're making 200k, you're definitely upper-middle class. You're so close to rich.

[StanUpshaw]

If it's like his other schemes, if you know the secret handshake, you can get yourself a waiver!

[spoon]

NYC is pretty much the only part of the country where making $200k a year isn't rich. I always thought I was middle class, apparently not only am I poor, but 99 percent of the people I know are also poor. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of people I've known throughout the course of my life that made that kind of money legally. If 95 percent of the country doesn't make that kind of money, it's not fucking middle class.

It's simple not true. Rich denotes great wealth and possessions. Do you really think people making 200k are rich just bc others make less. That would be like looking at someone making 55k in Camden and calling them rich bc so many are unemployed and or make less. They aren't rich, just better off then the majority. I'm not understanding how people think this line is rich or close to rich. I'd say you have to be much higher up the ladder to attain that "rich" platform.

Here's a great site to compare value of your salary from one area to another. Just did the Philly to NYC comp and they calculate 117k in Philly is equal to 200k in NYC. That's a loss of income of 83,000 dollars simply by moving to NYC. I think it's even worse to be honest, but is 117k in Philly rich to you TS? What about you Udog? I'd say 200k in NYC should be the middle of the middle class, and those considering themselves in this class may very well be poor. It's the reason our country is crashing, that middle class line is being redrawn and people are accepting it while losing out. They go after the few people making good/appropriate money as the rich when they have little if any control or wealth outside of day to day living comfortably.

Try it out.

Cost of living calculator. (http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx)

[spoon]

Early 2009 Story On Appropriate Middle Class Lines (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-02-05/news/17916262_1_new-yorkers-urban-future-expensive-urban-area)

This story states you have to make almost 125k just to attain middle class status in NYC, but I guess 2.5 years ago only means it's worse now. How this means 200k here is rich is bewildering. Poor: 0-125k, Middle Class: 125k-200k, Rich/Wealthy: 200k-$$$$

insane

[underdog]

What are we arguing about, anyway? Why are we trying to define the word rich?

[sailor]

What are we arguing about, anyway? Why are we trying to define the word rich?

TS was talking about Obama ending tax cuts for the rich. WF said 200k wasn't rich. I assume he's saying Obama was talking of ending tax cuts for folks making 200k

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Debt limit passes senate

From CNN
The Senate approved a last-minute compromise plan to raise the nation's debt ceiling, which will impose sweeping new spending cuts and will narrowly avert an unprecedented national default.
The House of Representatives approved the measure Monday by a 269-161 vote, overcoming opposition from liberal Democrats and tea party Republicans. Passage in the Senate required a supermajority of 60 votes.
The measure needs to be signed into law by President Barack Obama before the end of Tuesday.
The agreement - reached Sunday by Obama and congressional leaders - calls for up to $2.4 trillion in savings over the next decade, raises the debt ceiling through the end of 2012 and establishes a special congressional committee to recommend long-term fiscal reforms.

[Furtherman]

Yay! Who won? :dry:

[Rhah]

Yay! Who won? :dry:

The Rich.

[Misteriosa]

The Rich.

as usual.. :thumbdown:

[Syd]

Yay! Who won? :dry:

Obama and Boehner. Massive, massive cuts to discretionary spending during the time of depressed demand along with a quasi-legal "Supercongress" entity that will be able to put massive cuts in on social programs without being able to blame it on your elected officials thanks to obfuscating the process along with Fox News and CNN playing the part of propaganda ministers.

Enjoy your next 5-10 years of stagnation and constant 20% U6 numbers. Capital totally goddamn won today and they're going to keep on pummeling America back into the fucking stone age when the next "job creation" bill comes out that just keeps on lowering taxes on companies that have RECORD amounts of cash reserves. Marx was goddamn right, the only thing that's going to stop capitalism is itself.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Zero liability voters and the recipient class has won. Add a victory to the crony capitalists too. No consolidation of duplicate programs, reforms not any entitlements, ethanol subsidies and other corporate welfare programs aren't being touched. Obamacare wasn't repealed and we still risk a downgrade.

The other winner.... The DoD

[A.J.]

The other winner.... The DoD

:clap:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

http://paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=280


"This deal does nothing to fix the overreaches of both parties over the past few years: Obamacare, TARP, trillion-dollar wars, runaway entitlement spending. They are all cemented into place with this deal, and their legacy will be trillions of dollars in new debt."

[Syd]

yeah "zero liability voters" and "recipient class" totally won when 36% of discretionary spending was slashed in the middle of an economic crisis when there's virtually zero demand

The only people who won were capital, because they're the ones who buy Congress.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Did the zero liability voters and recipient class worry about when their checks were coming?

Gotta keep funneling money to ADM for those ethanol subsidies, make those corn farmers in Iowa happy.

Keep the war machine going. How many more brown people are we going to bomb into the stone age ?

[Syd]

What's your deal with "zero liability" voters anyway? Isn't it the libertarian ideal to be taxed at a rate equal to that of the services you use?

[Syd]

Stocks take a massive shit today, commodities take a massive shit and so do bonds. We're headed, very quickly, into another massive recession due to the GOP and corporate cronies like Obama.

[Earlshog]

Stocks take a massive shit today, commodities take a massive shit and so do bonds. We're headed, very quickly, into another massive recession due to the GOP and corporate cronies like Obama.

Has an eerily 2008 feel to it.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The markets are racist, they just want to ruin his big day

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/08/04/obamas-50th-birthday-a-private-celebration/

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Today Mika Bryzenski was talking about how the rich are buying $1500 shoes. Now if someone is rich, meaning making more than 200K in my opinion whats the big deal? Now I have no problem having the rates going back to 39.6% but complaining that someone with a shit ton of money buying expensive things what the fuck is the problem?

Tonight people are going to spend 35K a plate for Obamas b/day. Its their money if they want to spend it on that mazeltov.

I know if I won powerball, Im moving out of my condo here in CT and buying a swanky apartment in either TriBeca or SoHo. While Ill be wise with my money and not just piss it away, I would still enjoy my riches and be benevolent too.

[Syd]

Has an eerily 2008 feel to it.

It should -- everything is lining up exactly as it did in 2008. There's very little demand, a waning middle class and cash is being hoarded by corporations. Once the ARMs explode again this fall we'll be roaring into a recession.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Since we are tied into the global economy theres the Europe factor. Italy looks like the next domino to fall, theres also Portugal and Spain which are teetering

[Syd]

Most of the sell-off involves Europe, for sure. However, your country list is off, it's more like Greece -> Ireland -> Portugal -> Spain -> Italy -> some form of Mad Max

[Dude!]

Most of the sell-off involves Europe, for sure. However, your country list is off, it's more like Greece -> Ireland -> Portugal -> Spain -> Italy -> some form of Mad Max

yeah, greece and the
red-headed celts are first

[spoon]

just the red headed ones?

[hanso]

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The only GOP that make sense are out of office or booted from it over their views.

[Dude!]

The only GOP that make sense are out of office or booted from it over their views.

name a few who were "booted"
from the GOP "over their views"

in fact, name just one

[Syd]

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Earlier this week, Gilchrest told Roll Call he has already decided who – but not when – he will endorse.

Much to the consternation of NRCC Chair Tom Cole, he gave a telling clue on how he made his decision.

"Let's see, the Republican Party, or my eternal soul?" Gilchrest said.

"Party loyalty, or integrity?"

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[Dude!]

losing an election
is not 'booted from the gop'

and yes, you may as well
be hanso

[Judge Smails]

iS thIS NoW THe poST

liKE a

Di

Ck hEA D ThRE aD ?

[Syd]

losing an election
is not 'booted from the gop'

and yes, you may as well
be hanso

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too lazy to finish this, but he was primaried from the right and lost to another person in the GOP -- Gilchrest was specifically targeted for not being Republican enough, even though he represented an area of the country that isn't completely for raping your cousin and making her not have an abortion while singing about NASCAR Jesus or whatever Andy Harris wants Americans to do.

[hanso]

I'm sure this has happened all over. It happened in my state.

Quick name me any moderate Republicans.





Obama maybe the last one left. Trying to meet the fascist in the middle.

[Dude!]

I'm sure this has happened all over. It happened in my state.


who in your state
was "booted from the gop" ?

[A.J.]

Quick name me any moderate Republicans.

Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe from Maine.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe from Maine.

Theres also

Lincoln Chafee gov of Rhode Island
John McCain

[foodcourtdruide]

Theres also

Lincoln Chafee gov of Rhode Island
John McCain

1. Not in the GOP.
2. Eh. Pre-2008 definitely.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Sure, lets use more failed Keynesian policies

As always, something doesn't work. Money wasnt spent enough the 1st time.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/09/04/rep_maxine_waters_calls_for_a_trillion_dollar_jobs _program.html

[Syd]

Was Marx Right?

[...]

Hence, indulge me for a paragraph or two. Now, please note: This is a hugely divisive topic, and by "was Marx right?" I don't mean "Communism is the glorious future of humankind, my brothers in arms!! (And I am your leader — bow!!)". For, of course, I think we've had plenty of compelling demonstrations that it wasn't. Rather, I mean: "Was there maybe a tiny mote of insight or two hidden in Marx's diagnoses of the maladies of industrial age capitalism?"

Let's take Marx's big critiques of industrial age capitalism, one by one (and with a grain of salt: since I'm far from a Marxist economist, it's entirely possible my quick, partial descriptions leave much to be desired).

Immiseration. Marx claimed that capitalism would immiserate workers: he meant that labor would be "exploited" — not just in a purely ethical sense, but in a narrower economic one: that real wages would fall, and working conditions would deteriorate. How was Marx doing on this score? I'd say middlingly: wages in many advanced economies — notably, the most purely capitalist in a financialized sense — have failed to keep pace with productivity; not for years, but for decades. (America's median wage has been stagnant for roughly 40 years.) In macro terms, labor's share of income has plummeted, while the lion's share of growth has accrued to those at the very top.

Crisis. As workers were paid less and less, capitalism would be prone to chronic, perpetual crises of overproduction — for they wouldn't have the means to purchase or invest in enough goods to keep the economy humming. As Marx put it, there was likely to be "poverty in the midst of plenty." How's Marx doing on this score? Not bad, I'd say: the last three decades have in fact been characterized by global crises of what you might crudely call overproduction (think: too little demand chasing too many disposable widgets, resulting in a massive global debt crisis, as vanishing middle classes took on more and more debt to compensate for stagnant real wages).

Stagnation. Here's Marx's most controversial — and most curious — prediction. That as economies stagnated, real rates of profit would fall. How does this one hold up? On first glance, it seems to have been totally discredited: corporate profits have broken through the roof and into the stratosphere. But think about it again, in economic terms: Marx's prediction concerned "real profit," not just the mystery-meat numbers served up by beancounters, and chewed over with gusto by "analysts." When seen in those terms, Marx might be said to have been onto something: though corporations book nominal profits, I'd suggest a significant component of that "profit" is artificial, earned by transferring value, rather than creating it (just ask mega-banks, Big Energy, or Big Food). I've termed this "thin value" and Michael Porter has described it as a failure to create "shared value." Replace "declining real profit" with "shrinking real value" and it's analogous to what Tyler Cowen and I have called a Great Stagnation (though our casus belli for it differs significantly from Marx's).

Alienation. As workers were divorced from the output of their labor, Marx claimed, their sense of self-determination dwindled, alienating them from a sense of meaning, purpose, and fulfillment. How's Marx doing on this score? I'd say quite well: even the most self-proclaimed humane modern workplaces, for all their creature comforts, are bastions of bone-crushing tedium and soul-sucking mediocrity, filled with dreary meetings, dismal tasks, and pointless objectives that are well, just a little bit alienating. If sweating over the font in a PowerPoint deck for the mega-leveraged buyout of a line of designer diapers is the portrait of modern "work," then call me — and I'd bet most of you — alienated: disengaged, demoralized, unmotivated, uninspired, and about as fulfilled as a stoic Zen Master forced to watch an endless loop of Cowboys and Aliens.

False consciousness. According to Marx, one of the most pernicious aspects of industrial age capitalism was that the proles wouldn't even know they were being exploited — and might even celebrate the very factors behind their exploitation, in a kind of ideological Stockholm Syndrome that concealed and misrepresented the relations of power between classes. How's Marx doing on this score? You tell me. I'll merely point out: America's largest private employer is Walmart. America's second largest employer is McDonald's.

Commodity fetishism. A fetishized object is one which is more than a symbol: it's believed to have actually the power the symbol represents (like an idol, or a totem with magical properties). Marx claimed that under industrial age capitalism's rules, commodities became revered talismans, worshipped through transactional exchanges, imbued with mystical powers that give them inherent value — and obscuring the value of and in the very people who've worked labored over them in the first place. It's one of Marx's most subtle and nuanced concepts. Does it hold water? Again, I'll merely pointing to societies in furious pursuit of more, bigger, faster, cheaper, nastier, now, whether it's the retail temples of America's mega-malls, or London rioters stealing, not bread, but video games.

Marx's critiques seem, today, more resonant than we might have guessed. Now, here's what I'm not suggesting: that Marx's prescriptions (you know the score: overthrow, communalize, high-five, live happily ever after) for what to do about the maladies above were desirable, good, or just. History, I'd argue, suggests they were anything but. Yet nothing's black or white — and while Marx's prescriptions were poor, perhaps, if we're prepared to think subtly, it's worthwhile separating his diagnoses from them.

Because the truth might just be that the global economy is in historic, generational trouble, plagued by problems the orthodoxy didn't expect, didn't see coming, and doesn't quite know what to do with. Hence, it might just be that if we're going to turn this crisis upside down, we're going to have to think outside the big-box store, the McMansion, the dead-end McJob, the bailout, the super-bonus, and the share price.

The future of plenitude probably won't be Marxian — but it won't look like the present. And if we're going to trace the beginnings of better, more enduring, more authentic, more meaningful, fundamentally more humane paradigm for prosperity, perhaps it's worthwhile exploring — even when we don't agree with them — the critiques and prophecies of those who already challenged yesterday's.

http://blogs.hbr.org/haque/2011/09/was_marx_right.html

He might not have had the solution to the problem but Marx certainly identified it exactly.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Could he be right?

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."
– Norman Thomas, American socialist

[Syd]

Greeks are defaulting this weekend so that they can initiate some sort of recovery on their own. The ECB isn't willing to take the steps necessary to relieve the pressure on the country. So, here comes a depression for the Eurozone and probably America and China as well.

[Dude!]

Greeks are defaulting this weekend so that they can initiate some sort of recovery on their own. The ECB isn't willing to take the steps necessary to relieve the pressure on the country.

good

another nail in the coffin of the
discredited theory of 'socialism'

[WRESTLINGFAN]

good

another nail in the coffin of the
discredited theory of 'socialism'

The political class wont have to worry. Socialism is for everyone else except the socialists

[Syd]

good

another nail in the coffin of the
discredited theory of 'socialism'

actually it was neoliberalism that brought it down

thanks for playing "what did Fox News tell people to blame things on" though, your contributions to advocating the shit Reagan, H.W. Bush, Clinton and Bush pushed on the world is noted though

[Dude!]

actually it was neoliberalism that brought it down

thanks for playing "what did Fox News tell people to blame things on" though, your contributions to advocating the shit Reagan, H.W. Bush, Clinton and Bush pushed on the world is noted though

i never advocated for any of them

you can blame me only
for what Barry Goldwater
might have done
if we had been a smarter country

[StanUpshaw]

actually it was neoliberalism that brought it down

thanks for playing "what did Fox News tell people to blame things on" though, your contributions to advocating the shit Reagan, H.W. Bush, Clinton and Bush pushed on the world is noted though

Nuh-uh! It was Neotrotskyism!

DURRR MSNBC George Soros HuffPo DURRR

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Nuh-uh! It was Neotrotskyism!

DURRR MSNBC George Soros HuffPo DURRR

Arianna whored out to AOL, shes not a progressive anymore

[Dude!]

Arianna whored out to AOL, shes not a progressive anymore

gawd, she is such an awful person

she is so gross, she turned
her husband into a flaming homo

he never wanted to even see
a woman again

[WRESTLINGFAN]

gawd, she is such an awful person

she is so gross, she turned
her husband into a flaming homo

he never wanted to even see
a woman again

That voice of hers is like hearing knives across a chalkboard

[Syd]

Arianna whored out to AOL, shes not a progressive anymore

That whole site was a fucking joke and full of typical Obama supporters. It still is, for that matter.

[hanso]

ioiyar