Peopleagainstanimalabuse..

[ppanda]

Sorry I didnt know what forumn would be appropriate for this but I am kinda upset that lord Ronnie B. feels the way he expresed in yesterday's show?

I cant believe who I thought was a hero for underdog would justfy Michael Vick's "alleged" crimes against animals.

I posted the following in the ~midnight listening~ thread but I'm sorry I am a bit emotional about this- not to say that everyone is entitled to there own opinion- but it sounds like the same mentality the Nazis had- just towards animals.

"WOW I cant believe Im gonna say this but..
For once I disagree with Ron RE the animal thing.
I'm not vegan but still animal abuse is dispicable. Being a "superior" species we should know better than to take advantage of a "lower" life form for our fukin amusment. WTF
Eating animals that are on our "menu" is different than taking a dog from youth and as a surragate parent raising it to kill and then killing it cuz it doesnt live up to your expectations...would you do that to your child for growing up to be a janitor?- Fuk no
Vick is a fukin douche and Im glad he is losing his carreer because of it.

You are rewarding violent beahvior.

People are different- we have free will if you dont want to get treats (aka million dollar contracts) to beat the shit of another human- then get the fuk out.

I wish I could have called in on this topic.

These animals depend on their owners and just like racism- agression is taught- Ron is totally off base here.

the only thing I agree with Ron on is that, Yes, I love animals more than people. Humans are the largest version of fukin parasites on the earth.
Sorry I'll shut up now

OK- thats my soap box for the night"


We have a responsibilty as "higher organisms" to look after those who can't defend themselves- human or animal

Sorry for the rant- mods feel free to move to the appropriate forumn.

[ppanda]

..after further thought it might have been a bit to get a rise out of people like myself...I hope so.

[spoon]

To an extent I agree with both of you. Ron makes a great point how society has all but given up on caring for other humans but loving cuddly animals bc they can't fuck with you mentally. Perhaps not his exact point, but he did hint that we as a society have much bigger issues in our time. Is this to say we shouldn't protect these dogs and show the US isn't evolved or hasn't progressed past exploitation type sports with lower life forms? Of course not. In fact, I find it crazy that people are picketing for him and against him as we are currently at war and people are dying every fucking day for what? And for the NAACP to stand up on this issue is a fucking joke making every God damn issue involving a black person a racial outrage. I never once gave a shit about color or demographic, and I'd be willing to bet 95% or more of the people around my age or younger don't either.

As for the meat eating rip Ron had didn't hold up for me though. It seemed like one hell of a stretch to call him a hypocrite bc he uses animals as any society does for food and clothing, not killing for gambling and sport. Big fucking difference in my mind. Hence using the animal as the Native Americans did versus Cheney hunting quail in a fenced property from a fucking jeep. To me, he's just about as bad a fucking Vick. The difference is he's an elite and they wear nice clothes and disguise their evils better.

[HBox]

When you fall down is an animal going to pick you up? When you get sick will an animal treat you? No, a dirty human will.

No one should purposely torture any living thing for their own amusement. If Vick did what he did he'll get his punishment. But let's keep perspective. First of all, helpless does not equal innocent. Nature is not a kind and gentle place. Dogs and cats and other pets have been domesticated by humans. They'd be a whole lot different otherwise.

Second, its funny how this whole "protect lesser beings" completely falls apart depending on what you are talking about. We kill flies daily for the horrible crime of flying near us. We'll poison insects of all kinds for daring to eat our plants. Why does no care about them? Poor little helpless living things. I'll tell you one thing: Bees sure as hell contribute a shit load more to the environment and all of us than cute little dogs and cats. Yet we'll kill them without a thought. And then there's the animals we eat. And the animals we use in scientific and medical testing.

Of course you'll probably say that's why animals are better than us. I seriously think this line of thinking traces all the way back to Original Sin. All humans are guilty at birth. But poor animals are innocent. They never ate from the tree of knowledge. They're better than us. The awful things THEY do, well, they can't help it. We can. Because we're so great. And awful.

Here's a hard truth: Living things need to kill other living things to continue to live. Animals, humans, everything. Don't ditch the human team.

[ppanda]

Very valid points Spoon- my thoughts are our problems are by choice- War etc- its a socioligical choice not dependant on survival.
In simplest terms we (Americans) are not at the point where we have to kill to survive- we choose to go to war to keep up our "lifestyle" ie cheap fuel etc. I support our troops but I dont support the war- it's bullshit.
America is like the wife of the millionare who gets used to a certain way of life and wont compromise when she files for divorce so she has to hold no punches when it comes to the settlement.

The opposite is for these animals- they have no choice- kill or die.

I understand your comparison but dont feel its the same.

[Snacks]

Sorry I didnt know what forumn would be appropriate for this but I am kinda upset that lord Ronnie B. feels the way he expresed in yesterday's show?

I cant believe who I thought was a hero for underdog would justfy Michael Vick's "alleged" crimes against animals.

I posted the following in the ~midnight listening~ thread but I'm sorry I am a bit emotional about this- not to say that everyone is entitled to there own opinion- but it sounds like the same mentality the Nazis had- just towards animals.

"WOW I cant believe Im gonna say this but..
For once I disagree with Ron RE the animal thing.
I'm not vegan but still animal abuse is dispicable. Being a "superior" species we should know better than to take advantage of a "lower" life form for our fukin amusment. WTF
Eating animals that are on our "menu" is different than taking a dog from youth and as a surragate parent raising it to kill and then killing it cuz it doesnt live up to your expectations...would you do that to your child for growing up to be a janitor?- Fuk no
Vick is a fukin douche and Im glad he is losing his carreer because of it.

You are rewarding violent beahvior.

People are different- we have free will if you dont want to get treats (aka million dollar contracts) to beat the shit of another human- then get the fuk out.

I wish I could have called in on this topic.

These animals depend on their owners and just like racism- agression is taught- Ron is totally off base here.

the only thing I agree with Ron on is that, Yes, I love animals more than people. Humans are the largest version of fukin parasites on the earth.
Sorry I'll shut up now

OK- thats my soap box for the night"


We have a responsibilty as "higher organisms" to look after those who can't defend themselves- human or animal

Sorry for the rant- mods feel free to move to the appropriate forumn.

First I will say I dont agree with dog fighting, but at the end of the day I choose human over animal any day, anytime. If you feel its wrong to take away an animal for fighting then you should also think its wrong to take away an animal for a meal or for sport hunting or anything like that. There is no difference. The only difference is you like to eat meat and do not watch these animals being raised in slaughter farms and then killed to become food for you to eat. They are all violent acts. But you like dogs and cats and have them as pets. To some an animal is just that an animal and to them fighting dogs are what puts food on the table. Most dog fighting is done in very poor neighborhoods and its sometimes the only thing they know how to do. Some these people are raised this way and its either them or the dogs and they choose themselves. You dont have to like everything that people do, but you need to understand the person and their upbringing before you judge.

Most of us agree that dog fighting is wrong. But others dont because its part of their culture. I do not want to see Vicks career ruined over this. I think if Vick really had something to do with this, its because he didnt think anything was wrong. It only became illegal a few years ago (federal crime) Cockfighting is still legal in 2 states and in almost every latin american country its entertainment. Just like bullfighting. Some areas of the south this is no big deal. Havent you noticed some of the players (ronde barber, portis and other players) from the south all defended dog fighting. To them its part of their life.

Dont take what Ron said so personal. You have your opinion and he has his. I agree I dont like dog fighting, could never do it. But like Ron says it is just an animal and I think a humans life is worth so much more. I personally never understood people that value animals more then humans. Could it be its because an animal can be controlled and trained to do as you say but a human wouldnt allow to be controlled or told what to do all the time?

[Fezticle98]

I like all animals, except for those damn dirty apes! Or was it all humans?

[spoon]

Big difference in the reason why those animals are being killed H. Not for sport or gambling purposes, but to keep our food viable and to stop the advance of disease that is often linked to pests of one form or another. I love to eat steak, love my dogs and also treat my fellow man in public with respect. The bottom line is that there is this fading of respect between people in public that is very troublesome.

[HBox]

Big difference in the reason why those animals are being killed H. Not for sport or gambling purposes, but to keep our food viable and to stop the advance of disease that is often linked to pests of one form or another. I love to eat steak, love my dogs and also treat my fellow man in public with respect. The bottom line is that there is this fading of respect between people in public that is very troublesome.

I was just trying to point out that some of these arguments I hear are all emotion and no logic. No killing some animals for any reason, animals that just happen to be cute and pets. Then there are some other animals you can kill, but only for certain reasons. Then there are other animals that we don't care about at all that end up going extinct. And then there are insects who live or die at our will.

It just doesn't make any sense to me. Actually it does, but the explanation comes off as very shallow to me. Cute pets=how dare you kill them! ugly animals=AHH! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT!

[ppanda]

Hbox-
Without quoting you- cuz it would take up a lot of space.

The people that you speak of are the hypocritesd- they are the "i love my poodle" "Best in show" elitist assholes who are just like the evangelists of the "nature loving" world who take what fits them and ignores the rest- Fuk them- those are the same assholes who wear minks. they breed animals to serve their vanity.

I am a defender of all animals- ugly or not- opposums- ugly as sin- yet we feel no guilt when we run one over in the road- we laugh and say shit like "HA HA ROAD KILL- 2 POINTS- " "HA HA HA- street pizza" Fukin pisses me off-
And its that soryt of shit that makes us judgemental assholes and hope that all the 'posums wind up in heaven (should there be one- Im and atheist) and laugh at all of us douche bags who thought it was comical to kill an innocent animal carrying her young across a road thaty humans built so that she can feed her kids.

I have never heard of any other species on earth who arbitrarily creates an agenda to wipe out a species because they are a "neusance"

Lets look at all the craetures who HUMANS have hunted or destroyed for cosmetic or convenience purposes.
Whales- for blubber used for machining lubricants- what have they done to us?
"Sport" animals- for fur, mounting in peoples living rooms for macho status
Mosquitoes- because they itch and at times carry disease (but is that their fault?)
Sharks- because they look scary and because they defend their territory we need to punish them. Plus we want to act all like the alpha species and hang them on our wall.

Also mind you we use pussy tactics to accomplish these exctinctions- chemicals, guns , nets, etc.

Lets see Ted "inferiority complex" Nugent take on a bear (or even a deer) hand to hand like the man hethinks he is and see who runs crying.

I can go on forever..my point is that animals do what they do for survival or as self defense- they never had an agenda to wipe us out and I can without doubt say that ALL animals that are "Man-killers" would normally back away from a confronatation with us than face us.

Predators although scary and ferocios are all show and will avoid confronation because if they cant hunt...they cant eat...and they die. Whether it be a shark, bear, lion etc. and they do it for survival...not for prize or entertainment.

PS- when was the last time in NY ( or any city for that matter) did you fall and a person helped you up?...yeah they usually just walk by you and pretend they didnt see you talking on their cell with no one on the other line.

Superior species?...I think not- we desereve to be wiped out and let the Insects become the next evolutionary step

We have managed to cause more damage to this planet in 1/100th of the time than any other species that existed on earth

WOW- sorry for the speach- did I mention I'm was a biology major- oops

[ppanda]

Dont take what Ron said so personal. You have your opinion and he has his. I agree I dont like dog fighting, could never do it. But like Ron says it is just an animal and I think a humans life is worth so much more. I personally never understood people that value animals more then humans. Could it be its because an animal can be controlled and trained to do as you say but a human wouldnt allow to be controlled or told what to do all the time?

No, its because a captive animal- domestic or not- have no choice- either do what the huiman says or die- kind of like POW camp- remember the POW scenes in Deer hunter- same thing- they were treated like animals- and its no exageratiuon- imagine yourself in that situation

[HBox]

ppanda:

You have a very paternal view on this thing. I agree with the sport killing and stuff. I think Vick should go to jail if he's guilty of what he's accused. But I don't lose sleep over this stuff. Which I think was as far as Ron went.

But I don't agree that it's our responsibility to make sure other species prosper and flourish. As far as I'm concerned we should be most concerned with making sure WE prosper and flourish. That's what every species does in nature. At the same time as that we should look out for animals, make sure we don't wipe them out and certainly don't torture them for our amusement. Obviously we shouldn't ruin the planet for us or anyone else. But at the end of the day humans are out for their self interest, as is everyone else.

As for bad and rude humans, I'm sure there are asshole dogs and cars birds and whatever. Not everyone is going to help you but if your stuck in a fire people will risk their lives to save you. If you are in danger cops will try and save you. If you are sick doctors will treat you. And so on and so on. There are plenty of good people out there.

[ppanda]

Look- I can argue this all day. But I wont. the way we are, we are fixed in our ways and either you love animals (ugly or cute- for Hbox clarification) or you don't. I personally would have no guilt about hearing about an uncurable plague or whatever that is eliminating the human species, and only the human species, exponentially.
Its our time to step aside and let a more responsible species evolve and take over.

[sailor]

all the people who point to this case and say it dhows we care more about animals than people are deluding themselves. the crime itself is heinous, that's where all the outrage is from. now, just imagine vick had a stable of men/women that he kept enslaved and made fight to the death. do you seriously think there wouldn't be a bigger outrage than there is over his his current ordeal? (except for ppanda, whose posting is more than a little kooky right now. seriously, you sound like you're typing your way over the deep end.)

and for those who say it's no different than eating meat...if you then say you're opposed to dog-fighting yet still eat meat, aren't your actions going against your statements? crazy talk.

[zentraed]

there are so many ways to look at this, but for me, the most important one is the legal perspective. are animals your property, and are we going to grant them "civil rights"?

is torturing animals sick and twisted? yep. do i care what you do to your own dogs? not really. unless they're a threat to someone else. should someone lose their career over hosting dogfights? i don't think so. it's like arresting non-violent drug offenders. who do they hurt? not other people, and that's what's most important.

if you have a problem with that, then chances are you feel that animals should have civil rights. does that mean no more cages? no more killing and eating? no more putting them to work in the fields?

animals are property. some people will take care of them, and some won't. just like their cars, their lawns, and their homes.

[ppanda]

When you fall down is an animal going to pick you up? When you get sick will an animal treat you? No, a dirty human will.

.

And just for clarification- just because an organism is a quadraped doesnt mean they cant sense distress in humans.
Animals can (domestic or otherwise) can sense ther is a problem. And they do their best to help us- probably more so than a human.
Look at the rescue dogs that served in the 9/11 rescues. I'm sure if they can read the numbers on the phone and the buttons were paw size they would definately dial emergency.

There are actual cases (one of which I saw on an Animal Planet documentary) where a leopard killed a baboon, which is their natural prey- however what the leopard didnt realize is that it was a female baboon and its young was clasping for its life to its mom- which was the hunt.
The leopard cared for the young baboon for weeks- nursing it etc- until a pack of baboons showed up when the leopard retreated to a far tree.

[spoon]

Hbox-
Lets look at all the craetures who HUMANS have hunted or destroyed for cosmetic or convenience purposes.
Whales- for blubber used for machining lubricants- what have they done to us?
"Sport" animals- for fur, mounting in peoples living rooms for macho status
Mosquitoes- because they itch and at times carry disease (but is that their fault?)
Sharks- because they look scary and because they defend their territory we need to punish them. Plus we want to act all like the alpha species and hang them on our wall.

Also mind you we use pussy tactics to accomplish these exctinctions- chemicals, guns , nets, etc.

Lets see Ted "inferiority complex" Nugent take on a bear (or even a deer) hand to hand like the man hethinks he is and see who runs crying.

I can go on forever..my point is that animals do what they do for survival or as self defense- they never had an agenda to wipe us out and I can without doubt say that ALL animals that are "Man-killers" would normally back away from a confronatation with us than face us.

Predators although scary and ferocios are all show and will avoid confronation because if they cant hunt...they cant eat...and they die. Whether it be a shark, bear, lion etc. and they do it for survival...not for prize or entertainment.

PS- when was the last time in NY ( or any city for that matter) did you fall and a person helped you up?...yeah they usually just walk by you and pretend they didnt see you talking on their cell with no one on the other line.

Superior species?...I think not- we desereve to be wiped out and let the Insects become the next evolutionary step

We have managed to cause more damage to this planet in 1/100th of the time than any other species that existed on earth

WOW- sorry for the speach- did I mention I'm was a biology major- oops

Your all over the place now Ppanda sorry. And if you are indeed a bio major you should know that animals are in fact very teritorial and have/will look to wipe out all competition, including it's own species at times. And as just one example, killer whales have been known to torture it's food often as a sign of dom over it and other whales in the area. And are you really serious with the mosquito ref? Malaria and other deadly viruses/bacteria breed withing those animals so at times the lesser of evils is the answer I'm sorry. Looking at Vick and his use of animals for his pleasure/gambling ring is awful and one thing, but you've gone to a whole new level of crazy talk here.

[spoon]

Look- I can argue this all day. But I wont. the way we are, we are fixed in our ways and either you love animals (ugly or cute- for Hbox clarification) or you don't. I personally would have no guilt about hearing about an uncurable plague or whatever that is eliminating the human species, and only the human species, exponentially.
Its our time to step aside and let a more responsible species evolve and take over.

ppanda, you're killing any argument you had with insane posts like these. I was with you up to a point, but this is absolutely nuts. Who do you want to take over the planet, the ppanda or poison dart frogs? Animals have no sense of resposibility to the planet, in fact humans have a ton more. Overall they have no concept of the world around them past what's in their daily lives. For a bio major you really sound, well, like a creationist or something. I know it's a totally different subject but you seem to be holding on to some Neverending Story like dream of animal awareness.

[ppanda]

there are so many ways to look at this, but for me, the most important one is the legal perspective. are animals your property, and are we going to grant them "civil rights"?

is torturing animals sick and twisted? yep. do i care what you do to your own dogs? not really. unless they're a threat to someone else. should someone lose their career over hosting dogfights? i don't think so. it's like arresting non-violent drug offenders. who do they hurt? not other people, and that's what's most important.

if you have a problem with that, then chances are you feel that animals should have civil rights. does that mean no more cages? no more killing and eating? no more putting them to work in the fields?

animals are property. some people will take care of them, and some won't. just like their cars, their lawns, and their homes.

EEEEXXXACTLY....

you are looking at animals as innanimate objects- you compare them to cars when like you said they are being used for our amusemnet, and to perform labor....essentially SLAVES!!!

This is not what they were put on earth for- so to answer your question- Yes- they do have rights and currently there are laws that say so hence the accusations against Vick- otherwise he would not have been arrested.
And in fact there are global laws defending certain species of animals who are on the brink.
just because animals cant sit on the witness stand and describe how they were treated doesnt mean the owner/abuser cant be found guilty of unethical treatment.
Vicks behavior towards animals is the same sort of behavior that stepped Jeffery Dahmer to kill numerous people- he started by killing animals...Un-human

[PapaBear]

I know this thread is supposed to be focused on the subject of animal cruelty, but it's obvious what got it started. I mostly agree with ppanda's feelings. That said...

I hate needless abuse of animals, but my main opinion about the Vick issue has to do with how fucking stupid he is. I don't have a problem with his promotional deals being pulled, before he's convicted. He willingly signed contracts that allow for those contracts to be pulled or suspended, if he did things that could hurt the image of the companies that pay him. He had no "need" to participate in an activity that he knew was illegal.

Sure... Most people do something that is illegal. But he KNEW that this activity could cost him many, many millions of dollars, if he participated in them. He was a fucking idiot for not wanting to throw away his really cool false bottomed water bottle, too.

Fuck the "cultural" arguments. Dog fighting is not a culture. It's sub culture. If you want to make millions of dollars playing a professional sport, and being a marketable human commodity, then you should know better than to do stupid shit that will easily ruin it all for you.

I've been a huge Vick fan from day one. I'll almost always pull for the "homer" (I'm not only a Virginian, but my family is very VA Tech oriented). I love how much Vick has done for people, too. I REALLY love what he's done for people. But... He really pisses me off for being a FUCKING IDIOT!!!!

His ability to help the people around him, has been pretty much ruined by his total fucking stupidity. Yes... I know he hasn't been proven guilty. But he fucking knew what was going on. I have no proof of this, but it's pretty fucking obvious. If he didn't know, then he did his best, to "not know".

That said... I agree with ALMOST everything that Ron said.

I love dogs.

BTW... If the rumors are true, that Chinese restaurants cook and serve cats, then I'd have to say that cats are pretty freaking delicious.

[spoon]

there are so many ways to look at this, but for me, the most important one is the legal perspective. are animals your property, and are we going to grant them "civil rights"?

is torturing animals sick and twisted? yep. do i care what you do to your own dogs? not really. unless they're a threat to someone else. should someone lose their career over hosting dogfights? i don't think so. it's like arresting non-violent drug offenders. who do they hurt? not other people, and that's what's most important.

if you have a problem with that, then chances are you feel that animals should have civil rights. does that mean no more cages? no more killing and eating? no more putting them to work in the fields?

animals are property. some people will take care of them, and some won't. just like their cars, their lawns, and their homes.

Come on Zen, it's common sense. Let's not get all irrational and turn this into animal suffrage 2008! We as humans have domain over animals in every sense of the word. It's our duty if you ask me to act appropriately with this power and be reasonable with our choices. Dog fighting, cock fighting and even bull fighting aren't humane and "tradition" alone doesn't hold up in my eyes as an excuse to continue the exploitation especially in the US or any other westernized society. We as a race continue to evolve, albeit at an extremely slow pace in some areas, and as the days of gladiator fights have disappeared so should the above mentioned traditions/inhumane acts.

[ppanda]

. And if you are indeed a bio major you should know that animals are in fact very teritorial and have/will look to wipe out all competition, including it's own species at times.


NOT TRUE- All demonstrations of territorial dominance are show at first and is always intiated by one- like a mutany. Please read my other posts.- Animals especially predators will back down unless they are forced to fight.

Any injury means they cant hun...you cant hunt...you cant feed...you cant feed...you fukin DIE!
Its fight or flight- and 99.8% of the time its flight- if you had a gun pointed to you are you gonna try to throw fists?..I don't think so- you recognize the advantage and try to run.
Its common sense dude.

Competitionjs for territory are few and far between- in fact animals that mark territory for example large cats will take a long way around that marked territory to avoid confrintation.
The only time you will potentially see fatalities due to species-on-species fights is when it involves competeition for a mate.

Do you research budday

Sorry- I hate being told what is fact when I was in the field

[zentraed]

EEEEXXXACTLY....

you are looking at animals as innanimate objects- you compare them to cars when like you said they are being used for our amusemnet, and to perform labor....essentially SLAVES!!!

This is not what they were put on earth for- so to answer your question- Yes- they do have rights and currently there are laws that say so hence the accusations against Vick- therwise he would not have been arrested.
And in fact there are global laws defending certain species of animals who are on the brink.
just because animals cant sit on the witness stand and describe how they were treated doesnt mean the owner/abuser cant be found guilty of unethical treatment.
Vicks behavior towards animals is the same sort of behavior that steppped Jeffery Dahmer to kill numerous people- he started by killing animals...Un-human

you said you're an atheist. nothing on this planet was "put" here, and nothing is entitled to life. the only reason animals have "rights" is because we grant them, not because they demand them and fight for them and protect them. if animals didn't suit our purposes and bring us happiness, we wouldn't have them around. they're not potty-trained, and they're violent.

don't confuse correlation and causation. killing animals does not lead to killing people. however, people who do kill people have often killed animals.

[sailor]

is torturing animals sick and twisted? yep. do i care what you do to your own dogs? not really. unless they're a threat to someone else. should someone lose their career over hosting dogfights? i don't think so. it's like arresting non-violent drug offenders. who do they hurt? not other people, and that's what's most important.

so, you agree it's "sick and twisted" but still don't care. "sick and twisted" kinda makes it sound like you do. bringing the drugs in here is a stretch and just makes it sound like you have an agenda and are trying to twist this to your benefit. i agree, not hurting other humans IS most important, but that doesn't mean nothing else is important...does it?

(going back to the drugs, i think drugs should be legalized. fuck people if they want to screw up their own lives. the government could use the extra money they'd make off it, plus they'd save all the loot they're using to try to limit drugs. BUT, you're deluding yourself if you think under the current laws there are non-violent drug offenders. the violence is inherent in the system. if you wanted some shirt and the only way to get it to you was to kill someone else, you couldn't act like just because you didn't do the killing your hands were clean. end rant.)

[ppanda]

I know this thread is supposed to be focused on the subject of animal cruelty, but it's obvious what got it started. I mostly agree with ppanda's feelings. That said...

I hate needless abuse of animals, but my main opinion about the Vick issue has to do with how fucking stupid he is. I don't have a problem with his promotional deals being pulled, before he's convicted. He willingly signed contracts that allow for those contracts to be pulled or suspended, if he did things that could hurt the image of the companies that pay him. He had no "need" to participate in an activity that he knew was illegal.

Sure... Most people do something that is illegal. But he KNEW that this activity could cost him many, many millions of dollars, if he participated in them. He was a fucking idiot for not wanting to throw away his really cool false bottomed water bottle, too.

Fuck the "cultural" arguments. Dog fighting is not a culture. It's sub culture. If you want to make millions of dollars playing a professional sport, and being a marketable human commodity, then you should know better than to do stupid shit that will easily ruin it all for you.

I've been a huge Vick fan from day one. I'll almost always pull for the "homer" (I'm not only a Virginian, but my family is very VA Tech oriented). I love how much Vick has done for people, too. I REALLY love what he's done for people. But... He really pisses me off for being a FUCKING IDIOT!!!!

His ability to help the people around him, has been pretty much ruined by his total fucking stupidity. Yes... I know he hasn't been proven guilty. But he fucking knew what was going on. I have no proof of this, but it's pretty fucking obvious. If he didn't know, then he did his best, to "not know".

That said... I agree with ALMOST everything that Ron said.

I love dogs.

BTW... If the rumors are true, that Chinese restaurants cook and serve cats, then I'd have to say that cats are pretty freaking delicious.

Well said Pappabear- Im a huge football fan and I loved watching Atlanta games because of him.
And its not just this incident- please I'm a Cinci fan- you think Im not embarassed of their antics? I dont get how millions of dollars cant get these guys seperated from "the life"

[spoon]

NOT TRUE- All demonstrations of territorial dominance are show at first and is always intiated by one- like a mutany. Please read my other posts.- Animals especially predators will back down unless they are forced to fight.
Any injury means they cant hun...you cant hunt...you cant feed...you cant feed...you fukin DIE!
Its common sense dude.

Competitionjs for territory are few and far between- in fact animals that mark territory for example large cats will take a long way around that marked territory to avoid confrintation.
The only time you will potentially see fatalities due to species-on-species fights is when it involves competeition for a mate.

Do you research budday

Sorry- I hate being told what is fact when I was in the field

Then you should hate your own post my friend. I was involved with animal research my whole undergrad career and have been published multiple times. I've taken many courses in animal behavior, ecology, entomolgy, herpetology, immunology and many more as a pre-med/chem major/minor with field research summer internship programs. While some of what I worked on showed animals working together as a unit, other parts looked at a darker side of things which really just boiled down to survival of it's blood/genes/dna (the ultimate goal of all species). Oh and don't pigeon hole yourself to large mamals please, as most microbes will destroy your thesis as well. It's a constant arms race at every level, some are passive, some are agressive by any means needed.

So sorry DUDE, it isn't common sense I guess huh?

[zentraed]

Come on Zen, it's common sense. Let's not get all irrational and turn this into animal suffrage 2008! We as humans have domain over animals in every sense of the word. It's our duty if you ask me to act appropriately with this power and be reasonable with our choices. Dog fighting, cock fighting and even bull fighting aren't humane and "tradition" alone doesn't hold up in my eyes as an excuse to continue the exploitation especially in the US or any other westernized society. We as a race continue to evolve, albeit at an extremely slow pace in some areas, and as the days of gladiator fights have disappeared so should the above mentioned traditions/inhumane acts.

dogfighting falls under illegal betting. these people aren't just putting dogs in a ring and watching them fight for "nothing". as humans, do we enjoy watching violence? you bet. we watch animals hunt on nature shows all the time. the act of one animal killing another really doesn't bother us at all, so this issue just seems of so little importance to me.

there is no such thing as "having domain over animals". we have the technology and the cunning to control animals. there's no cosmic order to this.

i love animals. i even put in a good 4 years as a vegetarian. i even tried veganism. but animal rights people turn it into a religion, and they stop discussing the issue rationally.

[spoon]

mammal, oopsie

[sailor]

Then you should hate your own post my friend. I was involved with animal research my whole undergrad career and have been published multiple times. I've taken many courses in animal behavior, ecology, entomolgy, herpetology, immunology and many more as a pre-med/chem major/minor with field research summer internship programs. While some of what I worked on showed animals working together as a unit, other parts looked at a darker side of things which really just boiled down to survival of it's blood/genes/dna (the ultimate goal of all species). Oh and don't pigeon hole yourself to large mamals please, as most microbes will destroy your thesis as well. It's a constant arms race at every level, some are passive, some are agressive by any means needed.

So sorry DUDE, it isn't common sense I guess huh?

face!!

[ppanda]

you said you're an atheist. nothing on this planet was "put" here, and nothing is entitled to life. the only reason animals have "rights" is because we grant them, not because they demand them and fight for them and protect them. if animals didn't suit our purposes and bring us happiness, we wouldn't have them around. they're not potty-trained, and they're violent.

don't confuse correlation and causation. killing animals does not lead to killing people. however, people who do kill people have often killed animals.

Prove my point agian dear sir. I am an atheist which means that everything on this earth is key to prolonging our survival. I want to live as long as I can becuase I am convinced that there is nothing beyond.
You wipe out a species of plant, mammal, insect, etc- you disrupt a system....a balance...that keeps us alive. We have so many ailements we have yet to find a cure for and the study of those species that are immune can only benefit us.

[sailor]

Prove my point agian dear sir. I am an atheist which means that everything on this earth is key to prolonging our survival. I want to live as long as I can becuase I am convinced that there is nothing beyond.
You wipe out a species of plant, mammal, insect, etc- you disrupt a system....a balance...that keeps us alive. We have so many ailements we have yet to find a cure for and the study of those species that are immune can only benefit us.

so, your master plan of wiping out all humans...wouldn't that be the worst case of animal abuse ever?

[spoon]

dogfighting falls under illegal betting. these people aren't just putting dogs in a ring and watching them fight for "nothing". as humans, do we enjoy watching violence? you bet. we watch animals hunt on nature shows all the time. the act of one animal killing another really doesn't bother us at all, so this issue just seems of so little importance to me.

there is no such thing as "having domain over animals". we have the technology and the cunning to control animals. there's no cosmic order to this.

i love animals. i even put in a good 4 years as a vegetarian. i even tried veganism. but animal rights people turn it into a religion, and they stop discussing the issue rationally.

I agree with the religion comment and you see it here even. Yet to compare watching an educational segment on how the tiger hunts to stay alive on National Geographic to Vick Dog Fighting is one hell of a crazy leap. Just as the violent sport argument Ron made was nuts bc we rationally choose to play for a fee and usually rather enjoy both watching and playing. In the grand scheme of things, dog fighting is a small problem in this country in terms of size and social impact. Yet to ignore it bc we also watch football and eat meat is nuts. Also to defend Vick just bc he's black as the NAACP has is even crazier. Do they really believe they are after him more because of his race?! No. Perhaps they are after him more bc he'll be their star take down and face to ending this type crime. Yet I didn't see this organization come out to defend the Duke kids (white) when they were left for dead much quicker and with a lot less resources then Vick by far. Will we ever just be and not have to be some race?

[zentraed]

so, you agree it's "sick and twisted" but still don't care. "sick and twisted" kinda makes it sound like you do. bringing the drugs in here is a stretch and just makes it sound like you have an agenda and are trying to twist this to your benefit. i agree, not hurting other humans IS most important, but that doesn't mean nothing else is important...does it?

(going back to the drugs, i think drugs should be legalized. fuck people if they want to screw up their own lives. the government could use the extra money they'd make off it, plus they'd save all the loot they're using to try to limit drugs. BUT, you're deluding yourself if you think under the current laws there are non-violent drug offenders. the violence is inherent in the system. if you wanted some shirt and the only way to get it to you was to kill someone else, you couldn't act like just because you didn't do the killing your hands were clean. end rant.)

i just don't feel that the problem of animal abuse is really a problem. how many people do it, and what are the consequences? and when i ask about consequences, i'm referring to the human impact. that's what we usually focus on. if never killing another animal meant that human life expectancy would drop, would we stop killing animals because it was morally wrong?

that's my agenda: laws should have a measurable, positive impact.

(by buying illegal drugs, you're complicit in the actions of people who do commit violent acts. however, if the drugs weren't illegal, those violent acts wouldn't be carried out anymore. Merck doesn't shoot its employees.)

[ppanda]

Then you should hate your own post my friend. I was involved with animal research my whole undergrad career and have been published multiple times. I've taken many courses in animal behavior, ecology, entomolgy, herpetology, immunology and many more as a pre-med/chem major/minor with field research summer internship programs. While some of what I worked on showed animals working together as a unit, other parts looked at a darker side of things which really just boiled down to survival of it's blood/genes/dna (the ultimate goal of all species). Oh and don't pigeon hole yourself to large mamals please, as most microbes will destroy your thesis as well. It's a constant arms race at every level, some are passive, some are agressive by any means needed.

So sorry DUDE, it isn't common sense I guess huh?

Well I guess our hypothesis are contrary- I am a specialist in ichthyology phychology, and malacology with a specialty in cephalopods. As well many years of field research and psych-bio research and environmental studies as well as genetics and a strength in bio-chem.
BTW- all Bio studies are essentially pre-med- unless you are just a behavioral studies major...but Im sure you knew that.

Anyway- I am getting tired and need to sleep- like I said I can argue this all day- but I won't

**Edit- and by the "darker sides- are you speaking of the result of humans intruding on the limited territory now available to wild species- consider that factor.

[HBox]

I actually agree with the NAACP. I think Michael Vick should be free to do whatever he wants until his day in court. He's not guilty yet.

Of course I'm saying this because I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and the NAACP is saying it because Vick is black.

[ppanda]

so, your master plan of wiping out all humans...wouldn't that be the worst case of animal abuse ever?

touche.

[PapaBear]

I actually agree with the NAACP. I think Michael Vick should be free to do whatever he wants until his day in court. He's not guilty yet.

Of course I'm saying this because I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and the NAACP is saying it because Vick is black.
But it's not an "innocent until proven guilty" issue. He signed contracts that allow his employers to do this kind of thing.

[spoon]

Prove my point agian dear sir. I am an atheist which means that everything on this earth is key to prolonging our survival. I want to live as long as I can becuase I am convinced that there is nothing beyond.
You wipe out a species of plant, mammal, insect, etc- you disrupt a system....a balance...that keeps us alive. We have so many ailements we have yet to find a cure for and the study of those species that are immune can only benefit us.

ppanda, I love your passion here but it can be very misplaced at times. If you truly believe in balance and knowledge you have to realize that the planet is constantly changing/evolving and there are many slow and immediate dangers to our fragile evironments or ecosystems. In fact, I'm sure we've destroyed many more species then we have saved, but I'm positive some live only bc of our interaction. The planet is a history book full of fossils of flora and fauna that no longer exists at no fault of our own. Sure on on your side in becoming much more resposible in the future and in our generation in protecting all aspects of the earth's bionetwork, but when you rant and rave about ending the human species you'll never bring anyone to your side of the argument. I would like to think you were trying to make a point and sway some people here to think a little different on the subject am I right? Perhaps you should tone down the overly idealistic behavior and act a little more rational next time.

[sailor]

i just don't feel that the problem of animal abuse is really a problem. how many people do it, and what are the consequences? and when i ask about consequences, i'm referring to the human impact. that's what we usually focus on. if never killing another animal meant that human life expectancy would drop, would we stop killing animals because it was morally wrong?

that's my agenda: laws should have a measurable, positive impact.

(by buying illegal drugs, you're complicit in the actions of people who do commit violent acts. however, if the drugs weren't illegal, those violent acts wouldn't be carried out anymore. Merck doesn't shoot its employees.)

that's why i said "under the current laws" :) totally agree on the merck.

as for the impact of this crime, i'd say it lowers quality of life for all those who live in the surrounding areas.

[sailor]

But it's not an "innocent until proven guilty" issue. He signed contracts that allow his employers to do this kind of thing.

isn't vick just taking a year-long PAID leave of absence to deal with the trial?

[HBox]

But it's not an "innocent until proven guilty" issue. He signed contracts that allow his employers to do this kind of thing.

It's my opinion that the NFL should adhere to innocent until proven guilty. This isn't like Pacman Jones where Vick has had a pattern of law breaking and has been getting convicted of crimes. This is one charge where he hasn't had a chance to defend himself. The NFL is suspending Vick to satisfy a large portion public who will instantly assume guilt when anyone is accused. It's a PR move.

And they may NOT have the right to do this in the CBA. I'm sure Vick and his lawyers are way too busy to challenge it.

[zentraed]

Prove my point agian dear sir. I am an atheist which means that everything on this earth is key to prolonging our survival. I want to live as long as I can becuase I am convinced that there is nothing beyond.
You wipe out a species of plant, mammal, insect, etc- you disrupt a system....a balance...that keeps us alive. We have so many ailements we have yet to find a cure for and the study of those species that are immune can only benefit us.

you're over-simplifying things. the "balance" is something we perceive. nature is in a constant state of flux: evolution, climate change, migration. you disrupt a system, and that system reconfigures itself.

i also tend to believe that computation will be our salvation, but then again, i have a bioinformatics background (among some other disciplines).

[HBox]

isn't vick just taking a year-long PAID leave of absence to deal with the trial?

At this point he's only suspended from training camp. Unless the NFL rules further he can join the team once the season starts.

[Snacks]

I actually agree with the NAACP. I think Michael Vick should be free to do whatever he wants until his day in court. He's not guilty yet.

Of course I'm saying this because I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and the NAACP is saying it because Vick is black.

Thats the problem with issues like this in America. The media and special interests groups threw out innocent til proven guilty. They have made it that everyone is guilty and their lives should be ruined until they are proven not guilty and even if that happens they will still force their views on everyone and the innocent person will still be labeled as being guilty but getting over.

Its just not right. It continues to happen and there is no better proof then the Duke case. Still in peoples eyes those boys are guilty. You even hear people say "they might not have rapped her but they are not innocent" They say this because they hired a striper? Because they cursed and or acted in a sexual manner? They are innocent and they didnt do anything illegal. But the media and "professionals" love to say that having that party alone was wrong.




i just don't feel that the problem of animal abuse is really a problem. how many people do it, and what are the consequences? and when i ask about consequences, i'm referring to the human impact. that's what we usually focus on. if never killing another animal meant that human life expectancy would drop, would we stop killing animals because it was morally wrong?

that's my agenda: laws should have a measurable, positive impact.

(by buying illegal drugs, you're complicit in the actions of people who do commit violent acts. however, if the drugs weren't illegal, those violent acts wouldn't be carried out anymore. Merck doesn't shoot its employees.)

Zen every single post you have made has made more sense to me than anyone elses. If you really think about what he saying, its true. IMO

[PapaBear]

It's my opinion that the NFL should adhere to innocent until proven guilty. This isn't like Pacman Jones where Vick has had a pattern of law breaking and has been getting convicted of crimes. This is one charge where he hasn't had a chance to defend himself. The NFL is suspending Vick to satisfy a large portion public who will instantly assume guilt when anyone is accused. It's a PR move.

And they may NOT have the right to do this in the CBA. I'm sure Vick and his lawyers are way too busy to challenge it.
I agree that the SHOULD have to adhere to it, but the law is on their side. I'm not just talking about the NFL, either. I'm also talking about his endorsement deals. They set out terms, and he agreed to them. He had the option to say "No. I don't like those terms. I'll go play in Canada".

[ppanda]

, but when you rant and rave about ending the human species you'll never bring anyone to your side of the argument. I would like to think you were trying to make a point and sway some people here to think a little different on the subject am I right? Perhaps you should tone down the overly idealistic behavior and act a little more rational next time.

Hey Spoon-
I can agree with this- My comments were unfounded when I typed them- I was kinda PO'd and it was a drastic, irrational solution- hence my Touche to Sailor- good one budday- I think I was just looking to hit the bees nest and run away- LOL

I honestly have to say Spoon- I love a good debate- maybe next time when I ma not so fired up we can have a nice convo about where we think all this is going and the impacts to the future.
So no disrespect budday.

[keithy_19]

I may be the minority here. I like people. Some people are downright fantastic.

I like dogs too. My dog Max, he's my best friend. Always listens, always greets me with a smile (wagging tail). Is always there when I'm sad.

No human has ever always been there for me. My dog max will though, until his last dying die (or mine, depending).

In conclusion, I might feel better about hitting a human with my car than a dog.

Unless it's a mean fucking dog that rapes people. Fuck those raping dogs. Damn gypsies and their spells.

[Snacks]

that's why i said "under the current laws" :) totally agree on the merck.

as for the impact of this crime, i'd say it lowers quality of life for all those who live in the surrounding areas.

How's that? explain.

isn't vick just taking a year-long PAID leave of absence to deal with the trial?

No he isnt, thats what the NFL wants him to do and he says he wants to play and work and he should be able to. What if they suspend him and hes found not guilty? Then they fucked over an innocent man. If they let him play and hes found guilty then they can suspend him and he will how jail to deal with. So doing nothing now is the right thing to do.


It's my opinion that the NFL should adhere to innocent until proven guilty. This isn't like Pacman Jones where Vick has had a pattern of law breaking and has been getting convicted of crimes. This is one charge where he hasn't had a chance to defend himself. The NFL is suspending Vick to satisfy a large portion public who will instantly assume guilt when anyone is accused. It's a PR move.

And they may NOT have the right to do this in the CBA. I'm sure Vick and his lawyers are way too busy to challenge it.


Pacman is the same thing HBOX. At the time hes was suspended for a year he still eas even indicted or arrested for any crimes. So he wasnt guilty of anything. And this whole conduct policy is just bullshit. 99% of all football fans will still watch football even if 20% of the league was arrested in the offseason. When sundays come around we are all glued to the tv.

[HBox]

I agree that the SHOULD have to adhere to it, but the law is on their side. I'm not just talking about the NFL, either. I'm also talking about his endorsement deals. They set out terms, and he agreed to them. He had the option to say "No. I don't like those terms. I'll go play in Canada".

As far as the endorsement deals go, well, that's ALL about PR so I can't fault them for distancing themselves. But with the NFL, again, I don't know if this suspension would hold up if Vick challenged it in court. Nobody's proven he's done anything wrong yet. Of course Vick would be an idiot to challenge it and almost certainly won't. But I don't think it's so simple that the NFL can just do this as it chooses. Their collective bargaining agreement lays out specifically what players can and cannot be suspended for. There's a chance the NFL doesn't legally have the right to do what they did.

[spoon]

Well I guess our hypothesis are contrary- I am a specialist in ichthyology phychology, and malacology with a specialty in cephalopods. As well many years of field research and psych-bio research and environmental studies as well as genetics and a strength in bio-chem.
BTW- all Bio studies are essentially pre-med- unless you are just a behavioral studies major...but Im sure you knew that.

Anyway- I am getting tired and need to sleep- like I said I can argue this all day- but I won't

**Edit- and by the "darker sides- are you speaking of the result of humans intruding on the limited territory now available to wild species- consider that factor.

Fish, algae and I believe mollusks? Malacology is the study of mullusks from what I remember (I've been out of school for a long time now it seems). It would seem you're well versed in botany and zoology so you should realize that just about everything is possible on every level of life. Even in the "extremophile" world now being researched more thoroughly, the normal paradigms of life are being destroyed once again. Basically, anything is possible and we're far from understanding life at this point in our history. What you learn today, what I learned yesterday can change drastically as our research advances. I would never say never when you speak of an animal model as you have.

[PapaBear]

I haven't read into this much, but is he still getting paid by the NFL? If so, I don't see how he has a leg to stand on (minus the possible bonuses that he can get by actually playing).

[HBox]

Pacman is the same thing HBOX. At the time hes was suspended for a year he still eas even indicted or arrested for any crimes. So he wasnt guilty of anything. And this whole conduct policy is just bullshit. 99% of all football fans will still watch football even if 20% of the league was arrested in the offseason. When sundays come around we are all glued to the tv.

Not exactly. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2727784)

In this case he's having the charges dismissed by meeting the terms of the prosecuter but he clearly did something. You can look him up on Wikipedia to see his incredibly long list of trouble. His is an extreme case. There's a clear pattern of behavior, multiple arrests. What Vick is accused of is more serious but he hasn't been arrested multiple times over the last couple of years/

[keithy_19]

Not exactly. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2727784)

In this case he's having the charges dismissed by meeting the terms of the prosecuter but he clearly did something. You can look him up on Wikipedia to see his incredibly long list of trouble. His is an extreme case. There's a clear pattern of behavior, multiple arrests. What Vick is accused of is more serious but he hasn't been arrested multiple times over the last couple of years/

Maybe Vick just never got caught till now. Just a thought.

[keithy_19]

And fuck, Vick said sorry to his mom. Let's give it a rest now. As long as his mom forgives him I think the judicial system should too.

[ppanda]

Fish, algae and I believe mollusks? Malacology is the study of mullusks from what I remember (I've been out of school for a long time now it seems). .

You get an A+ 100% correct:thumbup:

We should converse more when I am not so heated- im interested in your experiences.

[HBox]

I haven't read into this much, but is he still getting paid by the NFL? If so, I don't see how he has a leg to stand on (minus the possible bonuses that he can get by actually playing).

Terrell Owens was paid when the Eagles kicked him off the time. But the Eagles weren't allowed to unilaterally suspend him. They had to prove to an arbitrator a pattern of behavior that justified their reasoning behind suspending him, that TO disrupted the team. They won obviously. But they didn't just get to suspend him at their will. Most experts thought TO would win and the Eagles would have been forced to let him back in.

I'm not sure whether Vick being charged is enough to justify a suspension, even a paid one.

[HBox]

Maybe Vick just never got caught till now. Just a thought.

And maybe you murdered a family of four and ate them for breakfast. I'm seeing through your emotionally vulnerable, love sick shell and inside your black heart. I'm calling your boss and having you fired.

I'M ON TO YOU!!!!!!!

[spoon]

It's my opinion that the NFL should adhere to innocent until proven guilty. This isn't like Pacman Jones where Vick has had a pattern of law breaking and has been getting convicted of crimes. This is one charge where he hasn't had a chance to defend himself. The NFL is suspending Vick to satisfy a large portion public who will instantly assume guilt when anyone is accused. It's a PR move.

And they may NOT have the right to do this in the CBA. I'm sure Vick and his lawyers are way too busy to challenge it.

Perhaps they know it to be the wrong move as well. I bet he plea-bargains down to a lesser sentence/penalty and is back in the NFL for 2008. He'll do some major public service work on the issue and reclaim his name of sorts. Perhaps in the end this will help end such an idiotic action by using him as the end.

[Snacks]

Not exactly. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2727784)

In this case he's having the charges dismissed by meeting the terms of the prosecuter but he clearly did something. You can look him up on Wikipedia to see his incredibly long list of trouble. His is an extreme case. There's a clear pattern of behavior, multiple arrests. What Vick is accused of is more serious but he hasn't been arrested multiple times over the last couple of years/

Clearly he did something wrong? ok, so at the time he was suspended he had a intoxication and disorderly conduct charge. What a waste of time. And if that is what you think is worth a 1 year suspension then Vick should be out for life. (he shouldnt i n my opinion)

At the time of his suspension he had no arrests (other then this one) He was questioned by polive 10 times but no charges were ever FILED AGAINST HIM.

I think the only reason they are trying to "clean up" sports is bitchy people. I think some people are so jelous that these guys make so much money and live the life that some regular folk cant stand it. So everything they do needs to be magified so that regualr folk can stand on their soap boxes talking shit about "how if that was me or if I had that money", etc, etc, etc. And to every avg Joe If you came from nothing and all of the sudden had everything you may act a fool too. I know if I had millions and I was 22 yrs old I would go out from time to time and get stupid and make it rain. There are plenty of people that do the same shit everyday and no one says shit.

Let it Rain Pacman, some stripers need to pay for their educations or put some shoes on their babies feet.

[spoon]

you're over-simplifying things. the "balance" is something we perceive. nature is in a constant state of flux: evolution, climate change, migration. you disrupt a system, and that system reconfigures itself.

i also tend to believe that computation will be our salvation, but then again, i have a bioinformatics background (among some other disciplines).

Well put as I agree with teh reconfig and computation points.

[PapaBear]

Perhaps they know it to be the wrong move as well. I bet he plea-bargains down to a lesser sentence/penalty and is back in the NFL for 2008. He'll do some major public service work on the issue and reclaim his name of sorts. Perhaps in the end this will help end such an idiotic action by using him as the end.
It won't help end the idiotic action, but it may help athletes from associating themselves with idiotic actions. It probably won't, though.

[Snacks]

Perhaps they know it to be the wrong move as well. I bet he plea-bargains down to a lesser sentence/penalty and is back in the NFL for 2008. He'll do some major public service work on the issue and reclaim his name of sorts. Perhaps in the end this will help end such an idiotic action by using him as the end.

I said this exact thing to john the other day. If he smart he pleads to something that doesnt give him no more then 6 months in jail (if any) take a suspension for the 2007 season. Makes some psa's holding a pitbull puppy and all will go away for the 2008 season.

See spoon we agree most times. Maybe it b/c we are both so fucking liberal

[keithy_19]

And maybe you murdered a family of four and ate them for breakfast. I'm seeing through your emotionally vulnerable, love sick shell and inside your black heart. I'm calling your boss and having you fired.

I'M ON TO YOU!!!!!!!

Who knows. It could be. Maybe one day you think your neighbors are going out to dinner and you never see them again. It's a fucked up world. Who knows.

[PapaBear]

BTW... My apologies to ppanda on all of my posts in this thread. I understand that you didn't intend it to be a debate about Vick. I just know that you started it because of Ron's rant about the issue.

Oh, and... HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!

[keithy_19]

Papabear, I often get you confused with ppanda. It's honestly jsut because you have P's to start your names. And I iamgine you both as jovial creatures.

[ppanda]

BTW... My apologies to ppanda on all of my posts in this thread. I understand that you didn't intend it to be a debate about Vick. I just know that you started it because of Ron's rant about the issue.

Oh, and... HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!

no sweat budday- its an open forumn and actually you are bringig full circle from what started the convo on the show- so good wrap up.
I actually have to apologize (as I already did to spoon) this is kinda a sore topic with me so Im sorry to anyone i may have taken it out on- it was not my intent to make any foes.
I just love to debate stuff- especialy in my specialty.

Thanks all- you wiped me out- I have to go to bed.

Pat

PS- thanks PBear for the B-day wishes

[keithy_19]

Do you think it would crush PPanda if Vick was invovled in underground panda fighting?

[ppanda]

Honestly- I didnt think this thread would get such a response- I was expecting it to die with just my post

[ppanda]

Do you think it would crush PPanda if Vick was invovled in underground panda fighting?

thanks for opening old wounds...he abducted me when I was ....five....:sad:....and made me fight other ppandas:glurps:...

[keithy_19]

That's what happens when you think nothing will come of a thread. It blossoms into something beautiful. A thoughtful discussion of topics deliberated openly with raw emotion.

[keithy_19]

thanks for opening old wounds...he abducted me when I was ....five....:sad:....and made me fight other ppandas:glurps:...

You're a better man for your experience. I believe in you.

[spoon]

No he isnt, thats what the NFL wants him to do and he says he wants to play and work and he should be able to. What if they suspend him and hes found not guilty? Then they fucked over an innocent man. If they let him play and hes found guilty then they can suspend him and he will how jail to deal with. So doing nothing now is the right thing to do.

Pacman is the same thing HBOX. At the time hes was suspended for a year he still eas even indicted or arrested for any crimes. So he wasnt guilty of anything. And this whole conduct policy is just bullshit. 99% of all football fans will still watch football even if 20% of the league was arrested in the offseason. When sundays come around we are all glued to the tv.


Ant, the league has a right as per their contracts with players to police their league. If you don't want to play by their rules as a corporation/league he could go elsewhere. If he fights them on this he'll lose due to the fact that his property in the least is involved and it warrants the action they look to take to protect their league's image.

I for one like the conduct policy as it'll make the league a better controlled product unlike the riff raff that is the NBA right now. Say what you want, but it's not good for the league to have issues like this in the least. And pacman is constantly involved in bullshit and it would never stop if they don't take a stand. The league is investing in these young kids who never had guidance and say what you will at least they're pointing them in the right direction as opposed to leaving them out to hang like the concusion issue.

[ppanda]

I for one like the conduct policy as it'll make the league a better controlled product unlike the riff raff that is the NBA right now. Say what you want, but it's not good for the league to have issues like this in the least. And pacman is constantly involved in bullshit and it would never stop if they don't take a stand. The league is investing in these young kids who never had guidance and say what you will at least they're pointing them in the right direction as opposed to leaving them out to hang like the concusion issue.

Spoon - you may be surprised but I have to agree with you here. I'm a Cinci fan and last year all these kids getting arrested especially Chris Henry hurt the team- if not performace wise at the very least morale wise.
I didnt know who was going to be playing week to week- its bullshit- but I totally blame the the recuruiting on the Bengals side- they should have seen the red flags

suggestion***- new thread?- who wants to post it?

[spoon]

I for one refuse to start a Cincy Convicts Thread because that dirty bastard Gvac quit his team and this board! If only he could read this bc it would sting soooo good. Like that time he banged that Korean Ladyboy with Yerdaddy. How many shots does it take to clear up the Clap?

Can someone make that into a sig pic with Justice4All walking up to a tree with an owl and a syringe/hypodermic sitting on a branch. The kid would go "How many shots does it take to clear up the Clap?" And the owl would reply (rolling his r's of course with a british accent of sorts), "ONE (while sticking him in the crotch with the needle), Two (repeating the process), Thrrrrreee (and we fade out here only to come back with a fade in to....), Thirty-two." Now that's a sig pic!

Attention Fallon!

[ppanda]

OMG dude- you were killing me with the sig pic description- I had to walk away. HA HA HA -
Yeah - and that pissed me off too that GVAC was ditching them- WTF- you cant pick a new team at 50 years old?!!!!!!

I will always stick by- I picked them as my team to follow - When I picked them a s ateam I picked them BECAUSE they sucked- they could only go up

No affiliates MF

[Snacks]

Ant, the league has a right as per their contracts with players to police their league. If you don't want to play by their rules as a corporation/league he could go elsewhere. If he fights them on this he'll lose due to the fact that his property in the least is involved and it warrants the action they look to take to protect their league's image.

I for one like the conduct policy as it'll make the league a better controlled product unlike the riff raff that is the NBA right now. Say what you want, but it's not good for the league to have issues like this in the least. And pacman is constantly involved in bullshit and it would never stop if they don't take a stand. The league is investing in these young kids who never had guidance and say what you will at least they're pointing them in the right direction as opposed to leaving them out to hang like the concusion issue.

I understand your point but disagree. Companies have a right to do whatever they want, but they should man up and let the legal system take its course before acting to quickly. To me its like when Imus was fired. They are just jumping the gun because of some activists, not because they need to or even want to do anything yet. Imus has every right to say what he wants and company has ever right to fire him. But most on this board thought he shouldnt be fired. Not because they agreed with him but because of free speech. They have every right under their bylaws to do what they want. I think they should wait. Its only my opinion.

Spoon - you may be surprised but I have to agree with you here. I'm a Cinci fan and last year all these kids getting arrested especially Chris Henry hurt the team- if not performace wise at the very least morale wise.
I didnt know who was going to be playing week to week- its bullshit- but I totally blame the the recuruiting on the Bengals side- they should have seen the red flags

suggestion***- new thread?- who wants to post it?

There has been talk by many that the Cincy police dept looks for things to arrest the players for. It has been said that they go above and beyond to "get them" for the smallest of incidents.

I personally think it comes down to jealousy and power trips on the polices part. They like to prove that they are the police and you rich young thugs arent going to get over.

Just a few months ago a cincy player was arrested after a wedding, in front of the facility b/c the police said go inside b/c there was gunshots in the area. The people (who had ever right to stay outside, the facility didnt want them off their property) didnt go inside so the police arrested the player. If there is gunshots in front of my house and I stand outside and the police tell me to go inside and I dont go, then if I get hurt its my fault. But this is a free country and the police has no right to tell you to do anything when you arent doing anything illegal.

[ppanda]

Spoon owes me a pack of cigarettes for staying up all night and chain smoking :smoke::smoke::smoke::smoke:while typing in anger- LOL

:laugh::laugh::laugh:- kidding budday

no point in going to sleep now- just live through it I guess

[spoon]

Come on Snacks, accusing everyone of being jealous, especially cops, for players getting into more trouble is ludicrous. It's an excuse devised by the coach to help bail himself out for not controlling his players. Sorry, how is it that this year since they changed their recruiting and laid down the law there haven't been the same issue so far? And say what you want, I believe they get out of more shit then the average person most of the time which in turn makes it even worse an issue using this theory. Just like Ant fom O and A gets out of any ticket, if he even gets it issued, bc of who he is. If they weren't breaking the law, they wouldn't be getting arrested or in trouble.

[ppanda]

I'm sorry Snacks- although I am a Cinci fan I have to agree with Spoon- the y broke the law.
They should be treated equal to common people- I dont want to have to break out my NFL card to get by a drunk stop.

[spoon]

Talk about a tie in try this.

You shouldn't use your NFL card, but some activated charcoal. Thank You For Smoking. Anyone, anyone?

[spoon]

Don't get ppanda pissed again snacks!

http://www.headinjurytheater.com/head%20injury%20panda%20attack.jpg

[spoon]

You sure about animals ppanda!? Look at this war hungry bastard!

http://www.zannelfest.com/images/magicbologna-Crazy%20Panda_.jpg

[StupidGirlllll]

PPanda, Spoons & Snack...get a room already.

[ppanda]

PPanda, Spoons & Snack...get a room already.

Only if you're there....sorry i dont look like Harry Potter :wink:

kidding Girllllll

[ppanda]

Spoon you realize jz- gonna make sig pics for me outta those pictures when he finds them.

[spoon]

cool
but who's jz? u mean the rapper!

[ppanda]

cool
but who's jz? u mean the rapper!

Nah Weekapaugjz

[Snacks]

Don't get ppanda pissed again snacks!

http://www.headinjurytheater.com/head%20injury%20panda%20attack.jpg

Now Im scared, lol


PPanda, Spoons & Snack...get a room already.

we need a girl to join us. You in??? :wink:

[ppanda]

Now Im scared, lol




we need a girl to join us. You in??? :wink:

Im there- hope the angry sex doesnt scare her away- LOL

[ppanda]

lock it up- this thread is going in all different direcions.

[Bulldogcakes]

Here's a hard truth: Living things need to kill other living things to continue to live. Animals, humans, everything. Don't ditch the human team.

Need is one thing, doing it for your amusement is another. Its the difference between killing for a need (self defense, time of war) and torturing your enemy for your amusement like at Abu Ghraib. Which is a real easy distinction to make. One is legit, one isn't.

Also, lets not make this about human vs animals at all. Apples and Oranges. Different species, different set of rules and expectations. One has nothing to do with the other, its a false choice to present.

[buzzard]

If Vick is indeed guilty,then he should pay the price.I doubt as he will,high-priced lawyers and the media fenzy will drag this out to a point of absurdity.

[ScottFromGA]

People against animal abuse. PAAA sounds so much better than PAC to be honest.