Burma is blowing up...

[El Mudo]

This is some really really bad stuff (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070928/ap_on_re_as/myanmar)


I'm not sure if the gov't will fall, although if it keeps messing with the Monks, it might

[A.J.]

Sanctions will stop it!

[TheMojoPin]

Watch out for Myanmar.

[Yerdaddy]

This is some really really bad stuff (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070928/ap_on_re_as/myanmar)


I'm not sure if the gov't will fall, although if it keeps messing with the Monks, it might

I'd give anything to see that piece of shit government fall. They're the scum of the earth. But as long as China, India, Thailand and Russia give two shits about human life and continue to prop those savages up they'll get away with anything, just like they got away with murdering 3,000 people in 1988 and China got away with murdering 2,000 of its own in 1989. The world will watch and wring it's hands and their leaders will scurry around trying to look busy and Burma will go back to its slow-burning brutality when the protest leaders are all in jail and everybody will forget that Burma exists.

The US is doing as much as anyone to put pressure on the regime, but it's not willing to put any penalties on countries who violate the sanctions because we wouln't want any American companies' profits in danger now would we?

In terms of American companies who help prop up the Burmese military regime - Chevron is the biggest, participating in a lucrative natural gas pipeline for which it has been fined millions by American courts for its role in forced labor on the project and the rape, murder, enslavement and displacement of thousands of people for the pipeline. But they're still on the project. In 1999 Haliburton was the main corporate sponsor of a group called USAEngage which lobbied to lift the sanctions on Burma so it could get in on the pipeline project. Among its arguments was that corporations shouldn't be able to be held liable when militaries like Burma's, which was a financial stake-holder in the project as well as a recipient of royalties, rape, kill and enslave people to get them out of the way of a pipeline, even when it's well-known that that's what that that military does.

It's hard to say that sanctions work - it's hard to say they don't. There weren't any sanctions at the time of the 1988 slaughter. And sanctions don't function in reality like they do in theory when countries like China and businesses like Chevron don't respect them anyway. The neoliberal theory, (which is the only other option open to Democrats because they don't piss off corporate America), states that economic engagement will lead to democracy by growing wealth and economic freedom which leads to demands for political freedom that can't be ignored. China is always the model. But where is Chinese democracy? They still censor the internet for anything democracy-related and prevent protests like the Tiennamen Square protests. And Burma isn't China. Economic engagement may improve the economic lives of ethnic Burmese but the other 40% ethnic minorities would still be brutalized if they get in the way of new pipelines. And when the military and the government are the same and control virtually all economic activity in the country they're the ones who will recieve most of the money and will use it to maintain control.

So there aren't any magic bullets for fixing a country like Burma. But what I can say is if the democracy leaders ask for sanctions to help them, and the West finally relents and imposes them, it's those countries and companies that undermine the sanctions who are working against the only real option for helping these people out.

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

Watch out for Myanmar.

The discount pharmacy?

[Earlshog]

I'd give anything to see that piece of shit government fall. They're the scum of the earth. But as long as China, India, Thailand and Russia give two shits about human life and continue to prop those savages up they'll get away with anything, just like they got away with murdering 3,000 people in 1988 and China got away with murdering 2,000 of its own in 1989. The world will watch and wring it's hands and their leaders will scurry around trying to look busy and Burma will go back to its slow-burning brutality when the protest leaders are all in jail and everybody will forget that Burma exists.

The US is doing as much as anyone to put pressure on the regime, but it's not willing to put any penalties on countries who violate the sanctions because we wouln't want any American companies' profits in danger now would we?

In terms of American companies who help prop up the Burmese military regime - Chevron is the biggest, participating in a lucrative natural gas pipeline for which it has been fined millions by American courts for its role in forced labor on the project and the rape, murder, enslavement and displacement of thousands of people for the pipeline. But they're still on the project. In 1999 Haliburton was the main corporate sponsor of a group called USAEngage which lobbied to lift the sanctions on Burma so it could get in on the pipeline project. Among its arguments was that corporations shouldn't be able to be held liable when militaries like Burma's, which was a financial stake-holder in the project as well as a recipient of royalties, rape, kill and enslave people to get them out of the way of a pipeline, even when it's well-known that that's what that that military does.

It's hard to say that sanctions work - it's hard to say they don't. There weren't any sanctions at the time of the 1988 slaughter. And sanctions don't function in reality like they do in theory when countries like China and businesses like Chevron don't respect them anyway. The neoliberal theory, (which is the only other option open to Democrats because they don't piss off corporate America), states that economic engagement will lead to democracy by growing wealth and economic freedom which leads to demands for political freedom that can't be ignored. China is always the model. But where is Chinese democracy? They still censor the internet for anything democracy-related and prevent protests like the Tiennamen Square protests. And Burma isn't China. Economic engagement may improve the economic lives of ethnic Burmese but the other 40% ethnic minorities would still be brutalized if they get in the way of new pipelines. And when the military and the government are the same and control virtually all economic activity in the country they're the ones who will recieve most of the money and will use it to maintain control.

So there aren't any magic bullets for fixing a country like Burma. But what I can say is if the democracy leaders ask for sanctions to help them, and the West finally relents and imposes them, it's those countries and companies that undermine the sanctions who are working against the only real option for helping these people out.

Axl Rose swears we will have it by X-Mas

[A.J.]

Yerdaddy and I don't always agree politically but dammit, I always enjoy his insights into different parts of the world. If I was President, I might just make him my Secretary of State. Or, Secretary of Partying Down.

[Fezticle98]

I've been transfixed by this story.

The monks, the junta, the naming controversy...it's all there.

I'd like to think that if I was Burmese that I would be one of the demonstrators, but I can't claim to have that level of courage.

[topless_mike]

i say just bum-rush and overthrow the military. if you want freedom that much, you shouldnt be afraid to die for it.

2000+ rioters should easily overtake a small squad of army men.

each soldier bumped off = 1 more gun in your posession.

if we were able to overthrow the british, then they can overthrow their military.

[Fezticle98]

i say just bum-rush and overthrow the military. if you want freedom that much, you shouldnt be afraid to die for it.

2000+ rioters should easily overtake a small squad of army men.

each soldier bumped off = 1 more gun in your posession.

if we were able to overthrow the british, then they can overthrow their military.

Easier said than done. The government has brought larger numbers of soldiers and mercenaries into the city.

Besides, as Buddhist monks are leading the protests, I imagine that the majority of the protesters are committed to non-violence.

[El Mudo]

Easier said than done. The government has brought larger numbers of soldiers and mercenaries into the city.

Besides, as Buddhist monks are leading the protests, I imagine that the majority of the protesters are committed to non-violence.



Bingo....and there's a lot more going on than anyone knows about. It says in that very article there about people being driven away en masse in trucks. I think it would be safe to assume most of them will never be seen again

[topless_mike]

Besides, as Buddhist monks are leading the protests, I imagine that the majority of the protesters are committed to non-violence.


yeah, i didnt think of that.
another reason to realize that sometimes you must put religion and your beliefs aside.

[El Mudo]

yeah, i didnt think of that.
another reason to realize that sometimes you must put religion and your beliefs aside.



Yeah, but the Monks have a LOT of clout in the country from what ive been reading....To the point where the military is absolutely TERRIFIED to deal with them too harshly

[Zorro]

Why has this received so much coverage when Darfur, Rwanda, Eritrea etc are middle of the paper stuff?

[El Mudo]

Why has this received so much coverage when Darfur, Rwanda, Eritrea etc are middle of the paper stuff?


Its kind of the story of the moment as far as I'm seeing....in the way that the Media has a very short attention span. Plus Burma is really really strategic in Southeast Asia, as the Chinese will probably move in there very quickly if the gov't falls. Plus, there are some sort of Northeast Indian seperatist guerillas that the Burmese gov't has been very handy in helping to contain for India....so what happens when there's no more Burmese gov't to control them?


And Burma's been a mess since before a lot of that stuff on Darfur and Rwanda hit the papers....all the way back to the late 80s and the whole Aung San Suu Kyi situation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aung_San_Suu_Kyi), and even before THAT, all the way back to the late 50s i believe


And besides, anytime non violent pro democracy protesters are being gunned down in the streets, or trucked away to never be seen again, its gonna get a lot of coverage, as it should

[Yerdaddy]

i say just bum-rush and overthrow the military. if you want freedom that much, you shouldnt be afraid to die for it.

2000+ rioters should easily overtake a small squad of army men.

each soldier bumped off = 1 more gun in your posession.

if we were able to overthrow the british, then they can overthrow their military.

The British had muskets. We had muskets. The British stood in lines and called us terrorists for shooting from behind trees.

The Burmese military built pedestrian walkways over the streets in Yangon after 1988. Most people don't have cars. The walkways were so the soldiers could fire on demonstrators in case of more protests.

More importantly, the military regime controls every dollar made or spent in that country. That means everyone with any money is in the military or was allowed to make money by the military. Even the street food vendors pay the police their cut. Every police and soldier is entirely dependent on the regime for their livelyhood. So most anyone who controls any decent sized business or resource is loyal to the regime and opposed to its overthrow and is working against anyone who organizes any opposition. So any revolution in Burma is going to be spontaneous like this one was and it's going to be unarmed people vs machine guns and tanks and it's going to be a bloodbath. These protests alone took more courage than anyone in America has faced since human waves of Civil War soldiers marched into certain death 150 years ago and even they were armed. The only way the Burmese will ever be free is if the world decides to make a bit of sacrifice and make the sanctions enforcible and really starve the regime of money until their leaders will accept some sort of exile or power-sharing deal. Then we'll need a peacekeeping presence and a massive investment scheme to make potential coup leaders rich but away from government.

It could be done. But I dont think it's going to happen. This will be forgotten in a week.

[TheMojoPin]

Yerdaddy and I don't always agree politically but dammit, I always enjoy his insights into different parts of the world. If I was President, I might just make him my Secretary of State. Or, Secretary of Partying Down.

That bra-bomb of yours better work, Nerdlinger.

[feralBoy]

It could be done. But I dont think it's going to happen. This will be forgotten in a week.

That's really the sad truth. Everyone says they care, but in a week everyone will be like whatever, what else is going on.

I'm in vietnam right now, and they had a shrine to the monk Thich Quang Duc. The south vietnamese government was anti-buddhism, and this guy douses himself in gasoline and lights himself on fire in protest. While I can't say I necessarily agree with killing yourself to make a point, what a fucking statement.

[high fly]

Cops in Burma wear flip flops.....

[Yerdaddy]

That's really the sad truth. Everyone says they care, but in a week everyone will be like whatever, what else is going on.

I'm in vietnam right now, and they had a shrine to the monk Thich Quang Duc. The south vietnamese government was anti-buddhism, and this guy douses himself in gasoline and lights himself on fire in protest. While I can't say I necessarily agree with killing yourself to make a point, what a fucking statement.

Let me know if you come to Cambodia. I'm in Siem Reap. I'll buy you a beer - you buy me a Coke - they're the same price.