Unions (carry over from the IED thread)

[clockworkjoey]

Lets here here Pro or con

I'm a union electrician been so for the last four years. befor the union i could barly afford to feed myself. now i own a house and i'm able to drive a nice car and finally able to take a vaction. I work just as hard if not harder then i did when i was a scab but my life is 100% better. For me its worth every drop of my sweat and i will take my support for my local to my grave.

TOGETHER WE BARGIN DIVIDED WE BEG!

[DarkHippie]

If it weren't for unions we'd be paid like 3rd world orphans and work 20 hours a day

[Tallman388]

This may surprise you (based on the IED thread) but I'm not wholly against unions, just the UAW. We just had a front row seat for the GM-UAW negotiations out here, and the UAW has basically screwed the younger generation of workers for its retirees health care costs. They're so desperate to pick up new members out here that they send recruiters to the plant where I work. The ironic part about this is that I work for a cabinet maker. You'd think the carpenter's union would recruit here, NOT the UAW. If your union helps you then I'm all for it, but if they're making you cover healthcare costs at a rate of 4 retirees for every currently employed member, then that's not right. It's like a pyramid scheme where you know you're going to be screwed, but join anyway.

[TooLowBrow]

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/union-cat-is-on-a-break.jpg

[TeeBone]

UNIONS-----NEGATIVE!!!!!!
In the early 20th century where robber barons and the like were prevalent all throughout this country (not just the North East), Collective bargaining and unions were justifiable and necessary in order for the common man to earn a living without fear of being killed, starved or run out of town. We are past that now (or at least we should be). In todays society, if you want to take a shit on your boss's desk without fear of reprisal, if you want to take zero pride in your work and pay a stipend to justify your lack of motivation and fund organized crime that is currently fueling political parties, if you want to be brainwashed into thinking that 'together we bargain,' - then join a union. Otherwise, pull up those boot-straps and do something for yourself. It may take a while and you may fail a few times, but that's life. You have to be willing to work your ass off to get to where they want to be. Unions may work for some and that's fine. I am certainly not saying any member of a Union is an idiot, I just think if you fall for something, it should be a fall toward work.

[sailor]

my current job is a non-union place and pays better than union scale with good benefits. for us, the union would handcuff the employer with no gain for the actual workers here.

[jetdog]

I don't know enough to make a definitive decision on this matter, but I would like to add two anecdotes to the discussion:

1) my cousin recently gained union membrership, it probably was the biggest and best thing to happen to him, he will be taken care of now, as opposed to living pay-check to pay-check with no security in his employement or finincial future. Hooray!
2) my brother recently graduated with a degree in industrial design, his classmates and himself wanted to undertake, as part of their education, a rebuild of the university's dillapidated workshop facility. they were barred from doing this because the University would not be utilizing union employees to accomplish this work. What the Fuck?

[TooLowBrow]

if i was an electrician id want to be in a union, i once worked at stop and shop and they wanted me to join their union, i cant imagine it wouldve been the same

[nevnut]

UNIONS-----NEGATIVE!!!!!!
In the early 20th century where robber barons and the like were prevalent all throughout this country (not just the North East), Collective bargaining and unions were justifiable and necessary in order for the common man to earn a living without fear of being killed, starved or run out of town. We are past that now (or at least we should be). In todays society, if you want to take a shit on your boss's desk without fear of reprisal, if you want to take zero pride in your work and pay a stipend to justify your lack of motivation and fund organized crime that is currently fueling political parties, if you want to be brainwashed into thinking that 'together we bargain,' - then join a union. Otherwise, pull up those boot-straps and do something for yourself. It may take a while and you may fail a few times, but that's life. You have to be willing to work your ass off to get to where they want to be. Unions may work for some and that's fine. I am certainly not saying any member of a Union is an idiot, I just think if you fall for something, it should be a fall toward work.


I agree.

One other thing that I don't like about unions is they take the money from your union dues and give it to politicall candidates that I may not agree with.

It's my choose where my polititcal donations go to, not some stupid union.

[Nothing Sound]

Lets here here Pro or con

I'm a union electrician been so for the last four years. befor the union i could barly afford to feed myself. now i own a house and i'm able to drive a nice car and finally able to take a vaction. I work just as hard if not harder then i did when i was a scab but my life is 100% better. For me its worth every drop of my sweat and i will take my support for my local to my grave.

TOGETHER WE BARGIN DIVIDED WE BEG!

I notice that being in the Union does absolutely nothing for your spelling abilities.

[CruelCircus]

I don't know enough to make a definitive decision on this matter, but I would like to add two anecdotes to the discussion:

1) my cousin recently gained union membrership, it probably was the biggest and best thing to happen to him, he will be taken care of now, as opposed to living pay-check to pay-check with no security in his employement or finincial future. Hooray!

Taken care of until his position is negotiated away in the next round of bargaining.
FYI- they don't refund your union dues when they do that.


My opinion is that most of the unions of 2007 exist only to perpetuate the union itself (and the jobs of the union leaders), and not the dues paying members.

[epo]

Unions have their place and some people are really helped by them. No problems with them either way.

And with the way the corporations are taking over America....there will come a day that Americans might earn for a union to save their ass.

[envirogator]

My opinion is that most of the unions of 2007 exist only to perpetuate the union itself (and the jobs of the union leaders), and not the dues paying members.
__________________

Couldn't agree more. One of the offices within one of the divisions my company has was approached/recruited by the UAW (this division operates geotechnical drilling rigs). We explained that the market did not bear/warrant the demands that they were proposing and if they moved forward with the proposal, the division would not be profitable and therefore closed. They filed the necessary paperwork and demanded a vote. Prior to the vote we closed that division within the office. A regional office absorbed the work. Twenty eight people out of a job. The UAW filed a protest but never followed through. The union left them high and dry.

A third party with no knowledge of our business trying to dictate our business practices for their benefit, not the employees that were hurt by their advice/actions.

[Dash77]

Unions are great in some places in the country and in others there not, from what I see it's all about the area, no union wants to brake an employer to gain benefits and it is a lot of give and take.. Some employers need the unions and vise verse.

[Recyclerz]

UNIONS-----NEGATIVE!!!!!!
In the early 20th century where robber barons and the like were prevalent all throughout this country (not just the North East), Collective bargaining and unions were justifiable and necessary in order for the common man to earn a living without fear of being killed, starved or run out of town. We are past that now (or at least we should be). In todays society, if you want to take a shit on your boss's desk without fear of reprisal, if you want to take zero pride in your work and pay a stipend to justify your lack of motivation and fund organized crime that is currently fueling political parties, if you want to be brainwashed into thinking that 'together we bargain,' - then join a union. Otherwise, pull up those boot-straps and do something for yourself. It may take a while and you may fail a few times, but that's life. You have to be willing to work your ass off to get to where they want to be. Unions may work for some and that's fine. I am certainly not saying any member of a Union is an idiot, I just think if you fall for something, it should be a fall toward work.

I partly agree with TeeBone but more by accident than anything else. It's true that the current form (and relexes) of unions are outdated but I disagree with his Libertarian solutions because I think they are just as outdated. Globalization is the fundamental economic force in our lifetimes and I don't think anybody has got a handle on all of its consequences yet. I do know that both the traditional right-wing (free markets uber alles) and left-wing (mechanical redistribution of wealth and economic isolationism) "solutions" won't work because they are 2-D plans in a 3-D world. It's true that the UAW's views are anachronistic and, ultimately, self-defeating but that doesn't mean that workers (and I think that includes about 95% of humanity) don't need leverage when dealing with the current day's robber barons - hedge fund managers, isolated and self-serving CEO's and private equity sharks.

[scottinnj]

If it weren't for unions a fully loaded Chevy Silverado 4x4 would cost 12,000 dollars.

[epo]

If it weren't for unions a fully loaded Chevy Silverado 4x4 would cost 12,000 dollars.

If it weren't for unions, many of those people wouldn't be able to purchase the very products they produce.

And also where is the alternative production site? Are you ok with China and $3/day?

[scottinnj]

If it weren't for unions, many of those people wouldn't be able to purchase the very products they produce.

And also where is the alternative production site? Are you ok with China and $3/day?

No. But I am not satisfied with 30 dollars an hour to install headlights.

[epo]

No. But I am not satisfied with 30 dollars an hour to install headlights.

This is the little shit that pisses me off about America. We wanna bitch when something is too expensive "because" a fellow American has a good job. But we as consumers want something for as cheap as possible....so this is somehow a problem. Let's blame the union!

But then again, we wanna bitch that we don't make enough.

Sorry...we can't have it both ways.

[scottinnj]

This is the little shit that pisses me off about America. We wanna bitch when something is too expensive "because" a fellow American has a good job. But we as consumers want something for as cheap as possible....so this is somehow a problem. Let's blame the union!

But then again, we wanna bitch that we don't make enough.

Sorry...we can't have it both ways.


Woah! Hold your horses there Epo. I buy UAW autos-proudly!


But here is my problem with the UAW:
The automaker will implement a two-tier wage and benefits scale for jobs that GM and the UAW have agreed are "non-core" production jobs. Those jobs are expected to include many positions in which workers do not have their hands on a vehicle in the assembly process. In addition, GM is expected to offer a targeted special attrition program to move workers in those non-core jobs off the active worker member rolls. Wages and benefits for second-tier workers will average $27 per hour, compared with the average $73 per hour of current workers, the sources said.

Complete Story (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070926/BUSINESS01/70926007&theme=AUTOTALKS072007&imw=Y)

In my life, I have owned:
1978 GMC Scottsdale
1981 Chevy Monte Carlo
1986 Chevy Cavalier
1988 Dodge Shadow
1991 Dodge Daytona
1993 Dodge Shadow
1996 Ford Taurus
1997 Chevy Malibu
1998 Chevy Monte Carlo
2001 Chevy S-10
2004 Chevy Venture

NO FOREIGN MAKES

I just don't want to hear that the guys making 27 to 75 dollars an hour (before benefits are added in) aren't making enough.

I'm all for fair wages. FAIR wages. Not "get mine, screw the others" type bargaining that results in fellow workers being laid off and products that cost 20% more then the competition.

What pisses me off is being in the middle-arguing over wages that are clearly too high for what the job is, while at the same time putting up with my asshole brother-in-law who swears by his collection of Acuras while he mocks the quality of American make automobiles. I swear to God, he wanted to "borrow" my S-10 one to haul away some scrap wood at the same time he was saying that Chevys are all junk. I wanted to punch him in the face.

[Sneaky Fucking Russian]

I think this has been debated to death on most forums. With out unions there would be no middle class. It's wouldn't exist as we know it today. While yes there are some unions that go over board and are not absolutely necessary, they are still very important in a country like ours where governmental legislation is controlled by major corporations via campaign financing lobbying, etc Let's not kid our selves, the moment the unions go away most ordinary jobs will turn into Walmart jobs.

[spoon]

Now that's not sneaky, it plain makes sense. Viva la SFR!

[Yerdaddy]

This may surprise you (based on the IED thread) but I'm not wholly against unions, just the UAW. We just had a front row seat for the GM-UAW negotiations out here, and the UAW has basically screwed the younger generation of workers for its retirees health care costs. They're so desperate to pick up new members out here that they send recruiters to the plant where I work. The ironic part about this is that I work for a cabinet maker. You'd think the carpenter's union would recruit here, NOT the UAW. If your union helps you then I'm all for it, but if they're making you cover healthcare costs at a rate of 4 retirees for every currently employed member, then that's not right. It's like a pyramid scheme where you know you're going to be screwed, but join anyway.

Don't we all.

http://keyboardsforchrist.com/Young_Jesus002.jpg

But don't kid yourself. If it weren't for the unions you'd get payed in loaves and fishes!

United Lepers Local 3:16

[empulse]

I am in the Union as well (electricians) - - I solder surfacemount parts, mod hardware. I am good at what I do. The union thinks that the bag of shit next to me should get a raise every time I do. Why? The guy next to me .. is 62 yrs old. His pay is grandfathered @ Multiskilled (28$), and its hard as fuck to fire one of these guys. I came in @ 13.19 an hour because fucking guys like this think they are entitled to work (if you can call it that) because of how long they have been there. He can bump me out of the shop I am in. Why? Because he is there longer? My boss can't do anything about it. If this guy wants my desk then he can just take it.


I support the unions. I did keep them outta my construction company. My guys brought home on avg. 1100$ dollars a week. The union kept telling them I was holding out on them and could always cough up more. I took home maybe $40K a year (Ok - with write offs, and keeping a little cash here an there we'll say max $55K). Less than my employees. And the union tells them i am fucking them?

I am afraid unions will cut their own throats. They are dinosaurs that are not able to change. I am as pinko liberal as they come. But now that I am in a Union (AFLCIO) I am seeing more bullshit than I can stand (almost... I got a mortgage to pay).

But to jump up an scream "LIberal Commy Unions are bAD!!"
or
"Unions are better than anything on the whole damn planet."

They need to evolve. They serve a purpose. It just shouldn't become like every other everything in this country -- Existing to serve the needs of a few, only looking out for those at the top of the pile.

[Hottub]

Live music is better. Bumper stickers should be issued.

[high fly]

Lets here here Pro or con

I'm a union electrician been so for the last four years. befor the union i could barly afford to feed myself. now i own a house and i'm able to drive a nice car and finally able to take a vaction. I work just as hard if not harder then i did when i was a scab but my life is 100% better. For me its worth every drop of my sweat and i will take my support for my local to my grave.

TOGETHER WE BARGIN DIVIDED WE BEG!


I am not a member of a union and have never belonged to one.
Generally speaking, I think unions are great!
Historically they kept us from going commie and over the years have done much to help workers.
Unions are great for business, especially big business like the automobile industry because they can guaruntee a skilled work force to be on the job over a set period of time, meeting certain production goals.
With labor costs fixed, large companies can then plan more certainly for the future.


Right-wingers have always been against unions because righties are against anyone who sticks up for the little guy versus the rich and powerful.

They hate on lawyers for the same reason.....

[BMoses]

I am not a member of a union and have never belonged to one.
Generally speaking, I think unions are great!
Historically they kept us from going commie and over the years have done much to help workers.
Unions are great for business, especially big business like the automobile industry because they can guaruntee a skilled work force to be on the job over a set period of time, meeting certain production goals.
With labor costs fixed, large companies can then plan more certainly for the future.


Right-wingers have always been against unions because righties are against anyone who sticks up for the little guy versus the rich and powerful.

They hate on lawyers for the same reason.....

I think any business should be able to plan on a projected path of labor costs. Even if you look at a business like retail which is mostly non union there hasn't been any major (or minor) adjustment to labor costs. They can project cost of living and most will adjust their pay based on this number. There are examples of labor costs going up in specific markets due to fast growing economies and increased competition for the labor pool but this is in the companies best interest in the long run anyway. People move to where the jobs are.

As far as securing a skilled labor force there are two points. First, like empluse stated, Unions can, at times keep, works who are no longer productive, or never were, in positions at a high rate of pay. Secondly, with computer/production advances most production jobs do not require the years of apprenticeship that were once needed. That being said jobs that are truly skilled, electricians and such, will always benefit from representation.

[high fly]

Never spent much time in construction, eh?
I have seen all kinds of cost overruns and jobs get mighty nasty when, say, a framing crew walks off the job and there is no one there to replace them. It has a ripple effect through the rest of the schedule of the project. The absence of the framing crew meant that the drywallers could not get in there at the time they had scheduled to do so and were on anoher job when the framers were finally replaced.
So now another drywall crew has to be found. Then this throws off the drywall finishers, the painters, the trim carpenters, etc.
I have seen many small companies go under as a result.

Unions prevent that sort of thing from happening.
By negotiating contracts, management can be assured of a steady supply of skilled workers who will not be practicing work stoppages or slowdowns or strikes, for that matter.

I have known people in construction unions who have had to travel considerable distances because the union had an obligation to keep.

[Snacks]

Never spent much time in construction, eh?
I have seen all kinds of cost overruns and jobs get mighty nasty when, say, a framing crew walks off the job and there is no one there to replace them. It has a ripple effect through the rest of the schedule of the project. The absence of the framing crew meant that the drywallers could not get in there at the time they had scheduled to do so and were on anoher job when the framers were finally replaced.
So now another drywall crew has to be found. Then this throws off the drywall finishers, the painters, the trim carpenters, etc.
I have seen many small companies go under as a result.

Unions prevent that sort of thing from happening.
By negotiating contracts, management can be assured of a steady supply of skilled workers who will not be practicing work stoppages or slowdowns or strikes, for that matter.

I have known people in construction unions who have had to travel considerable distances because the union had an obligation to keep.


Thats why you hire someone who can frame and drywall. I think Unions are obsolite now. Back in the day they were needed because no one had a voice now they do. The union have done the same shit that the business owners used to do. Now the Unions hold the company by the balls. How many times do people see construction sites, road crews etc. where you see 2 or 3 people do work and others just bull shiting? I see it so much, it because union contracts require X # of people on a job even if they are not needed. I have hired many laborers, contractors etc and always hire private companies and people that do it all. They are usually cheaper, do their job faster because the quicker they do this job the quicker they can move on the the next and make more money. And before you say they dont do as good as a job, they do actually they do a better job because future business relies on it. In the private game a lot of business is referral. My stepfather was a Union construction worker. I have never seen a guy work less to make money. When he worked, he farted around not doing much because he was a "senior" contractor. And half the year he was laid off or picketing.

Unions are the reason why so many professions today allow for meritocracy because you cant fire them. Teachers, cops, fireman have such strong Unions. Their pay's have increased, they cant be fired, and some get away with doing as little as possible. I think they are all over paid based on what they do. Thats my opinion, and not all are. Im talking more about suburban cops, fireman, teachers etc. Not the ones who work in the big cities. Those cops, fireman , and teachers are the ones who get the short end of the stick. They are the ones who are in more danger, work harder and are under paid. They are the ones who deserve and need better unions.

[high fly]

Thats why you hire someone who can frame and drywall. I think Unions are obsolite now.

The point was about what happens when the ones you hire walk Off the job and the ripple effect that has on other subcontractors. With unions this does not take place.
You did not address the point.


Back in the day they were needed because no one had a voice now they do.

The point was not about having a voice.
To avoid the shit management will pull given half the chance, labor needs more than a voice, it needs power to compel management to treat workers with the respect they deserve, provide a safe, decent workplace and to pay them fairly


The union have done the same shit that the business owners used to do.

What shit would that be?
And when you name it, don't forget to blame the owners for doing the same thing - whatever that "same thing" happens to be.


Now the Unions hold the company by the balls. How many times do people see construction sites, road crews etc. where you see 2 or 3 people do work and others just bull shiting? I see it so much, it because union contracts require X # of people on a job even if they are not needed.

How are they holding the company by the balls?
Those companies seem to be doing pretty well, as far as I can tell.

And I see just as many people standing around on construction sites as I see inside fast food joints and other places of business.



I have hired many laborers, contractors etc and always hire private companies and people that do it all. They are usually cheaper, do their job faster because the quicker they do this job the quicker they can move on the the next and make more money. And before you say they dont do as good as a job, they do actually they do a better job because future business relies on it.

Of course there are always exceptions, but in decades in the construction industry I have frequently seen work that would not be acceptable to the union.
Speed is of the essence, and that is why new homes fall apart in 20 years.
I specialize in historic restoration and, by contrast, those older buildings are often better built than the new ones slapped together by the cheapass jacklegs you are hiring.
With your focus on speed, getting the check and moving on, it doesn't look at all to me that you are quality-oriented at all.



Unions are the reason why so many professions today allow for meritocracy because you cant fire them. Teachers, cops, fireman have such strong Unions. Their pay's have increased, they cant be fired, and some get away with doing as little as possible. I think they are all over paid based on what they do. Thats my opinion, and not all are. Im talking more about suburban cops, fireman, teachers etc. Not the ones who work in the big cities. Those cops, fireman , and teachers are the ones who get the short end of the stick. They are the ones who are in more danger, work harder and are under paid. They are the ones who deserve and need better unions.


Because of what we ask of teachers, cops and firefighters, I don't think we pay them enough.
The ones I know of who work in the country or suburb are often paid less than those who work in th big cities.

If you are so concerned about what other people make, you need to focus on executive salaries which have increased over the last 20 or 25 years at a much greater pace than salaries of workers, and executives don't have a union. They just loot the company at will.
Not only that, but with tax cuts targeting investment rather than payroll income, executives have also gotten a bigger break in that area as well.

[booster11373]

Specifically those who dont like that unions get involved and make political donations,

Do you have a problem when industry trade groups band together and do the same thing?