Do Evangelicals ever recognize the irony?

[realmenhatelife]

So I'm watching the history channel Antichrist special- and there are all these evangelicals talking about how the antichrist is an enigmatic leader who will seek to unite all peoples under his own religion and economic command in order to slaughter the masses and lead us into the lake of fire. And they have this tremendous history of xenophobia- the european union is suspect, the internet is a tool, social security is scary, media and really any secularism are dangerous. But they never say "Hey, we're a society of orators who seek to command the thought, finance and society of our country. Alot of our bullshit is backhanded hate speech. Maybe its us?"
Ive read a fair ammount of Christian mysticism, and that idea, that we are brought down by our aspirations to virtue as much as by our faults, used to be huge in religious thoughts. These bumpkins could look into it.

[SatCam]

Do Evangelicals ever recognize the irony?

no

[lleeder]

its like raaaaaaain...

[scottinnj]

Did you post this for a discussion, or just to piss off the ones on this board who are religious. If you wanted "discussion" terms like xenophobia and mysticism, and calling us bumpkins just don't seem to rise to the occasion.

But if you just wanted to show all of us how intolerant you are and how unable you seem to be to truly understand Christianity, then you hit the nail on the head.


300 million Americans, 80% Christian which a huge chunk of that is Protestant. If you want to equate all of us as members of the Westboro Baptist Church and live in fear because of that, then you are a fool.

And if you believe there is no God, fine.
You have your faith and Christians have theirs.

Yes, to be an atheist is as much an act of faith as being a Christian.

You can't prove there is no God. I can't prove there is one. We both looked at the world and tool a leap of faith, unfortunately in opposite directions.

[TooLowBrow]

You can't prove there is no God. I can't prove there is one. We both looked at the world and tool a leap of faith, unfortunately in opposite directions.

YOU took a leap, he looked at the REAL world and accepted it for what it is.

[hedges]

"This enemy --the indispensible devil of every mass movement--is omnipresent. He plots both outside and inside the ranks of the faithful. It is his voice that speaks through the mouth of the dissenter, and the deviationists are his stooges. If anything goes wrong within the movement, it is his doing. It is the sacred duty of the true believer to be suspicious. He must be constantly on the lookout for saboteurs, spies, and traitors."
Eric Hoffer "The True Believer" p. 115

No, they don't see the irony.
I am Protestant; does that make me a hypocrite by agreeing with Hoffer?

[cupcakelove]

My favorite part of that show was how much of it focused on Ted Haggard for information on the antichrist.

[Crispy123]

its like raaaaaaain...

YOU took a leap, he looked at the REAL world and accepted it for what it is.

its a free ride baby

[lleeder]

YOU took a leap, he looked at the REAL world and accepted it for what it is.

Hey boss. Remember me? Jack Newton. Got a question for you. Why did you make so many suckers? You say, 'love never endeth.' I say love never started. You say 'the meek shall inherit the earth.' And I say all the meek can count on is getting the short end of the stick. You say, 'is there one among you who is pure of heart?' and I say not one.

[TooLowBrow]

Hey boss. Remember me? Jack Newton. Got a question for you. Why did you make so many suckers? You say, 'love never endeth.' I say love never started. You say 'the meek shall inherit the earth.' And I say all the meek can count on is getting the short end of the stick. You say, 'is there one among you who is pure of heart?' and I say not one.

Yakety yak, God's talking back!

[lleeder]

Yakety yak, God's talking back!

A twelve-gauge, double-barreled, grenade-launcher of LOVE!

[TooLowBrow]

A twelve-gauge, double-barreled, grenade-launcher of LOVE!

Ooohh, a pissing contest, can I watch?

[donnie_darko]

the sad thing is, the maniacs we need to be religious usually aren't

the most religious people seem to be the ones sensible enough to not need it.

then we have people like earl....ugh.

[patsopinion]

isnt being an atheist the epitome of not taking a leap of faith
"I don't believe in god" doesn't need any faith because there is no proof of the contrary

If god is infallible then why does science and reason always win out?

I'm thinking of not celebrating Christmas this year...

[realmenhatelife]

But I do believe in God, I've thought about it alot and I can talk about all the different ways I think my concept of religion enters into my life and the things I admired most about the church within which I was raised and the things I chose to reject about it.

Please, offer a counter point. I made an incendiary post, but I didn't really know there were evangelicals that really dug on Ron and Fez.

Do you make an evaluation of the people in your church that seem to preach exclusionism, or xenophobia, or religious imperialism? I feel like the very religious do not place value in choice when they make moves to legislate their own morality into other peoples lives. If we were incapable of sin, then not sinning would have aboslutely zero value. Am I wrong to think that the people with the most religious influence and conviction need to be the most careful, and could be the most powerful tools against their own belief system?

The thing about hugely principled people (the same exact thing has happened to me with vegans) is that if you offer any kind of criticism they automatically make you out to believe the absolute contrary to what they do. I have a problem with a church so I must be an aetheist, I must be faithless.

[Crispy123]

So I'm watching the history channel Antichrist special- and there are all these evangelicals talking about how the antichrist is an enigmatic leader who will seek to unite all peoples under his own religion and economic command in order to slaughter the masses and lead us into the lake of fire. And they have this tremendous history of xenophobia- the european union is suspect, the internet is a tool, social security is scary, media and really any secularism are dangerous. But they never say "Hey, we're a society of orators who seek to command the thought, finance and society of our country. Alot of our bullshit is backhanded hate speech. Maybe its us?"
Ive read a fair ammount of Christian mysticism, and that idea, that we are brought down by our aspirations to virtue as much as by our faults, used to be huge in religious thoughts. These bumpkins could look into it.

But I do believe in God, I've thought about it alot and I can talk about all the different ways I think my concept of religion enters into my life and the things I admired most about the church within which I was raised and the things I chose to reject about it.

Please, offer a counter point. I made an incendiary post, but I didn't really know there were evangelicals that really dug on Ron and Fez.

Do you make an evaluation of the people in your church that seem to preach exclusionism, or xenophobia, or religious imperialism? I feel like the very religious do not place value in choice when they make moves to legislate their own morality into other peoples lives. If we were incapable of sin, then not sinning would have aboslutely zero value. Am I wrong to think that the people with the most religious influence and conviction need to be the most careful, and could be the most powerful tools against their own belief system?

The thing about hugely principled people (the same exact thing has happened to me with vegans) is that if you offer any kind of criticism they automatically make you out to believe the absolute contrary to what they do. I have a problem with a church so I must be an aetheist, I must be faithless.

You make several points and ask several questions. I can tell you that disputes in religious attitudes and morals has gone on since the beginning of religion. It usually does not go well for the person pointing out the faults of others. If everyone agreed on all aspects of faith and religion then we wouldn't have all the religions or even all the denominations and sects within each religion that we do now.

Another note, being "principled" does not make you right. It just means you have an ego and choose to put all your faith in your beliefs. So yeah its going to be hard to point stuff out that they disagree with and damn near impossible to change that persons mind.

[Midkiff]

Did you post this for a discussion, or just to piss off the ones on this board who are religious. If you wanted "discussion" terms like xenophobia and mysticism, and calling us bumpkins just don't seem to rise to the occasion.

But if you just wanted to show all of us how intolerant you are and how unable you seem to be to truly understand Christianity, then you hit the nail on the head.


300 million Americans, 80% Christian which a huge chunk of that is Protestant. If you want to equate all of us as members of the Westboro Baptist Church and live in fear because of that, then you are a fool.

And if you believe there is no God, fine.
You have your faith and Christians have theirs.

Yes, to be an atheist is as much an act of faith as being a Christian.

You can't prove there is no God. I can't prove there is one. We both looked at the world and tool a leap of faith, unfortunately in opposite directions.

:thumbdown:

[meanmrbill]

Yes, to be an atheist is as much an act of faith as being a Christian.


To say that atheism is an act of faith is just as presumptous a statement as you make out Real's statement. Faith is belief where there is a lack of evidence. So, atheism isnt "faith", actually its just the opposite of "faith". For example, if someone tells me that unicorns exist and I say they don't, I wouldn't be using faith to come to my conclusion. I would be going on the FACT that there is no evidence that unicorns exist. Nothing makes me more upset than when someone calls atheism an act of faith. Nonsense.

[Dougie Brootal]

Mankind, in his insatiable search for divine
knowledge, has discarded all biblical teachings.

Realizing that the strength of religion is the repression of
knowledge.
All structures of religion have collapsed.

Life prays for death.
In the wake of the horror of these revelations,

it was never imagined how graphic the reality that would
be known as the end
of creation
Would manifest itself....

We believe all this chaos and atrocity can be traced
back to one single event...

We hold these truths to be painfully self-evident,
All men are not created equal,
Only the strong will prosper,
Only the strong will conquer,
Only in the darkness of Christ have I realized...
God Hates Us All.

[Furtherman]

To say that atheism is an act of faith is just as presumptous a statement as you make out Real's statement. Faith is belief where there is a lack of evidence. So, atheism isnt "faith", actually its just the opposite of "faith". For example, if someone tells me that unicorns exist and I say they don't, I wouldn't be using faith to come to my conclusion. I would be going on the FACT that there is no evidence that unicorns exist. Nothing makes me more upset than when someone calls atheism an act of faith. Nonsense.

Exactly. “Atheist” is a label that is unnecessary. For those of you who do not believe in astrology, are you called "anti-astrologers?" You're not because there is no need too. Not believing in astrology is a simple grasp of reason, fact and common sense. It's the same with religion. If we were not taught it at an early age and we lucky enough never to be exposed to it, we would just be living our lives, surviving a natural way.

To say that "to be an atheist is as much an act of faith as being a Christian" is to imply that every human is born with faith, and we choose to ignore it.

[scottinnj]

YOU took a leap, he looked at the REAL world and accepted it for what it is.

Nope, that's not true. Again, just because you believe the science of nature proves there is no god, you can't prove it. I can make a point that the science shows so much harmony between the physical and metaphysical properties of the universe, there was absolutely a Higher Power that set up the laws that govern this dimension we live in. But I can't prove it. And you can't prove all this happened by a random sequence of events without any outside influence at all. And even if you could, it still would not prove there is no higher power. You just believe. Like I do.

[scottinnj]

To say that atheism is an act of faith is just as presumptous a statement as you make out Real's statement. Faith is belief where there is a lack of evidence. So, atheism isnt "faith", actually its just the opposite of "faith". For example, if someone tells me that unicorns exist and I say they don't, I wouldn't be using faith to come to my conclusion. I would be going on the FACT that there is no evidence that unicorns exist. Nothing makes me more upset than when someone calls atheism an act of faith. Nonsense.


You have to have faith for atheism. As much as my faith in God. The unicorn analogy is not accurate, because you are saying that since we have the ability to scour the earth and never see one, it's faith that makes the conclusion there are no unicorns. You can't do that with God. You can't say there is no God when you haven't seen the entire universe, or for that matter, what lies beyond the universe.

You believe there is no God, not because it's been proven there is no God, you believe there is no God from your own conclusion. And a conclusion whether to believe or not to believe based on no fact is faith.

And it's not a condemnation either. You have the absolute RIGHT to believe there is no God.
The aspect of the tone of this thread is the elitist attitude a lot of atheists have towards Christians, who because of their faith must be stupid and afraid of science.

But of course, when dummies say dumb things like this (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=487764&in_page_id=1811), it makes it very hard for me to even try, and I do understand the condenscending attitude it evokes from those who are outside of Christianity. And rational people like me in the faith wind up trying to explain doctrine vs. dummies (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1489357&posted=1#post1489357) instead of the cool stuff.

[scottinnj]

It's the same with religion. If we were not taught it at an early age and we lucky enough never to be exposed to it, we would just be living our lives, surviving a natural way.

To say that "to be an atheist is as much an act of faith as being a Christian" is to imply that every human is born with faith, and we choose to ignore it.


First explain to me where natural law came from if not from God. The Natural Way that is displayed every day on earth to me shows there is a God due to the harmony in nature and the natural tendencies in all creatures that drive us towards survival and co-existence.

The second part where you think I am implying we are "born" with faith is not right. I never said that, nor do I subscribe to that. We do come to conclusions based on our experiences, and since science neither speaks for or against the existence of God, it is our conclusions based on our experience here on earth more then the science that has us believe or not. Science is just one of the elements in that conclusion we all come to.

[scottinnj]

Do you make an evaluation of the people in your church that seem to preach exclusionism, or xenophobia, or religious imperialism? I feel like the very religious do not place value in choice when they make moves to legislate their own morality into other peoples lives. If we were incapable of sin, then not sinning would have aboslutely zero value. Am I wrong to think that the people with the most religious influence and conviction need to be the most careful, and could be the most powerful tools against their own belief system?



Sorry then, it was the "incendiary" tone that put me in a defensive mode. Yes, I have a terrible time with my church, that is why I haven't been there in over a year. Too many people who rely too much on faith for healing then the practice of medicine. Too many people who are quick to tell me that if I vote for a certain political party (hint: it's party headquarters are usually in places where my cell phone doesn't work-thanks Patton Oswalt!) I'm sinning against God.
The Problem I have with the original idea of this thread is that somehow in this world of secular Communism that is responsible for millions killed and the Muslims involved in Islamo-Fascism bent on killing ALL of us, somehow we need to be worried about the dummy on TV asking his flock of dummies for a donation. I don't think he/she is going to be a threat to your life as much as the others I mentioned are.

[Furtherman]

Exactly. “Atheist” is a label that is unnecessary. For those of you who do not believe in astrology, are you called "anti-astrologers?" You're not because there is no need too. Not believing in astrology is a simple grasp of reason, fact and common sense. It's the same with religion. If we were not taught it at an early age and we lucky enough never to be exposed to it, we would just be living our lives, surviving a natural way.

To say that "to be an atheist is as much an act of faith as being a Christian" is to imply that every human is born with faith, and we choose to ignore it.

First explain to me where natural law came from if not from God. The Natural Way that is displayed every day on earth to me shows there is a God due to the harmony in nature and the natural tendencies in all creatures that drive us towards survival and co-existence.

The second part where you think I am implying we are "born" with faith is not right. I never said that, nor do I subscribe to that. We do come to conclusions based on our experiences, and since science neither speaks for or against the existence of God, it is our conclusions based on our experience here on earth more then the science that has us believe or not. Science is just one of the elements in that conclusion we all come to.

Well then you realize that the natural way is survival. And we fight for survival. Harmony in nature is a cruel fight scratching and biting your way to the top. Everyone of us here has it in them to kill for survival. Nature is a bitch. Your all loving god is behind that?

Your second point ...well.. I don't think you made it too clear.

You can't help where you are born. If you were born to a family that did not believe in any god, you'd be right here with me. And to say you need faith to be an atheist is just wrong. The teachings you were given as a kid stick to you weather you like it not. Many people smell the bull, and many people enjoy the safe feeling that they'll all meet up somewhere after they die. You'll decompose and return to the earth and eventually humans will go to.

There have been thousands of religions and thousands of gods across the fraction of a second we've been around in time. There will be other religions and other gods as well long after we're gone.

Our basic building blocks, the elements of life, are all found in stars. That's the only place we'll end up. It may seem cold and meaningless but it's the human ego that wants a purpose.

We're just the latest animal that's fought to claim this planet. The dinosaurs were around for 165 million years and it was 65 million years before we evolved. And even their range in miniscule compared to the 5 great extinction periods on Earth in the last 550 million years.

And us, some god's creatures who are so special - where were we in that time? Hanging out somewhere else? No, we didn't exist. We evolved. We're bipedal hominids with a wonder result of evolution called the brain that is capable of so much imagination and reasoning. We created the myths that became public beliefs. And our private myths hold comfort for many. If that works for you, more power to you, but you'll never be able to say, "See you in heaven" and not truly believe it deep down, because you'll always have that doubt, and that doubt is logic and reason.